/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-08-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 19 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  22. # [02:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/kzAKG
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  26. # [02:19] <fantasai> dholbert: OK, so, do we need to fix anything in the spec or file bugs against IE/Chrome?
  27. # [02:19] <dholbert> fantasai, the latter, I think
  28. # [02:19] <dholbert> fantasai, I'm posting on www-style in response to my post that you sent me
  29. # [02:19] <fantasai> :)
  30. # [02:23] <dholbert> fantasai, sent. I'll file bugs later tonight
  31. # [02:24] <fantasai> Thanks
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  33. # [02:30] <fantasai> dholbert: fwiw, I've updated the issues list - http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325
  34. # [02:37] <dholbert> fantasai, (ah, never mind -- TabAtkins is gonna file a bug, he says on the list. Thanks, Tab!)
  35. # [02:37] <dholbert> (I'll file an IE bug, though)
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  38. # [02:45] * fantasai kk
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  61. # [04:23] * fantasai back online
  62. # [04:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/issuegen.pl
  63. # [04:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: scroll to the bottom
  64. # [04:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah?
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  66. # [04:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: copy-pasted into bikeshed for issuegen?
  67. # [04:37] <TabAtkins> Oh! That's what you meant.
  68. # [04:37] <TabAtkins> Sorry, spaced.
  69. # [04:37] <fantasai> :)
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  71. # [04:41] <fantasai> dholbert: I think we need some help on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0009.html
  72. # [04:41] * fantasai and TabAtkins are taking off for the day, but will be back tomorrow
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  178. # [19:40] <fantasai> dholbert: Thanks to one of your excellent emails, it seems we expanded "any definite size constraints" completely wrong
  179. # [19:41] <fantasai> dholbert: trying to fix now :)
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  191. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> dholbert: fantasai's composing an email to the list, but we just rewrote the min-width:auto conditions entirely, and *now* we're pretty sure they're correct. We did a chart on a whiteboard and everything.
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  194. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, put the chart in the spec ;)
  195. # [22:18] <fantasai> we compressed it a bit
  196. # [22:18] <fantasai> but it's in the spec
  197. # [22:18] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/#min-size-auto
  198. # [22:19] <fantasai> the chart on the whiteboard expanded out some of the stuff that's folded into the definitions now
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  200. # [22:24] <dholbert> fantasai / TabAtkins, sorry, apparently my IRC bouncer doesn't notify me about missed messages on this server! /me needs to look into that
  201. # [22:25] <dholbert> anyway, just saw fantasai's email to the list, and then rejoined irc.w3.org & saw the backscroll of your messages :)
  202. # [22:27] <fantasai> :)
  203. # [22:27] <dholbert> fantasai / TabAtkins, the new spec text has "height" in the definition of "transferred size" -- I think it wants s/height/cross-size/
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  205. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Already fixed.
  206. # [22:27] <dholbert> nice
  207. # [22:28] <dholbert> yup
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  209. # [22:33] <fantasai> dholbert: yeah, so
  210. # [22:34] <fantasai> dholbert: I'm a bit unsure about the 'main-size' conditional in the first bit wrt clamped size
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  213. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> dholbert: In particular, fantasai thinks we might want to honor the main size property in all cases, even if flex-basis is an explicit length.
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  215. # [22:42] <dholbert> TabAtkins / fantasai, I can see the argument for that, but I'm not sure I agree... that adds some complexity
  216. # [22:43] <dholbert> I view the main-size conditional as a special-case, to prevent a particular footgun
  217. # [22:43] <dholbert> fantasai, doesn't the min-main-size property give the author exactly the same amount of expressiveness?
  218. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> dholbert: That was my argument. ^_^
  219. # [22:44] <dholbert> TabAtkins, good argument! :D
  220. # [22:45] <fantasai> mine is that, if the author specified a size, and the min-size is "auto", "auto" should not automatically violate that size :)
  221. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> (My counter there is that if flex-basis isn't main-size, then width/height isn't consulted at all in the flex layout algorithm, so it seems weird to consult it for this.)
  222. # [22:45] <dholbert> yeah, I was about to say something along those lines
  223. # [22:45] <fantasai> We already reference the cross-size property if there's an aspect ratio
  224. # [22:46] <dholbert> fantasai, that's because there's no cross-axis analog of "flex-basis"
  225. # [22:46] <fantasai> why are we doing that and not referencing the main-size property?
  226. # [22:46] <dholbert> if there was, we'd use that, presumably
  227. # [22:46] <fantasai> Still
  228. # [22:47] <fantasai> I don't think automatic min size should ever cause a specified size violation
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  230. # [22:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0040.html
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  232. # [22:50] <fantasai> dholbert: Help on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0009.html ? :)
  233. # [22:50] <dholbert> fantasai, (I'm leaning against it because this means that implementations have to resolve *both* "width" and "flex-basis" into pixel-values [/ app units / equivalent], which is extra work that's otherwise unnecessary)
  234. # [22:51] <fantasai> o_O?
  235. # [22:51] <fantasai> Isn't that just a line of arithmetic?
  236. # [22:51] <fantasai> and only if it's a percentage?
  237. # [22:51] <dholbert> fantasai, it means resolving calc(), percentages, intrinsic sizing keywords, etc.
  238. # [22:51] <fantasai> (since otherwise you've computed it already for the computed value)
  239. # [22:52] <fantasai> intrinsic sizing keywords wouldn't be resolved
  240. # [22:52] <fantasai> you don't care about them
  241. # [22:52] <fantasai> also none of them are ever smaller than min-content :)
  242. # [22:52] <dholbert> fantasai, (ok, but the general "resolve what this abstract <length> means" code doesn't know that :))
  243. # [22:53] <fantasai> k, then you do
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  245. # [22:54] <fantasai> if size is not a keyword, resolve abstract length
  246. # [22:54] <fantasai> ?
  247. # [22:54] <fantasai> but seriously, if you put
  248. # [22:54] <fantasai> <img src=foo.png width=30 height=30>
  249. # [22:54] <fantasai> into a flexbox
  250. # [22:55] <fantasai> and the UA forces it to be 80px because that's your image size
  251. # [22:55] <fantasai> is that not weird?
  252. # [22:57] <dholbert> fantasai, Gecko honors the 30px/30px right now, FWIW, with my implementation of what I understood the most recent min-size:auto stuff to mean
  253. # [22:57] <fantasai> even if you specify "flex: 1"?
  254. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Default flex is "auto", which'll honor that width.
  255. # [22:57] <dholbert> fantasai, no, if you specify flex:1, it stretches
  256. # [22:57] <dholbert> which I think makes sense
  257. # [22:57] <fantasai> yes, of course
  258. # [22:57] <fantasai> but does it shrink down to zero?
  259. # [22:58] <fantasai> or does it stop at 30px
  260. # [22:58] <fantasai> or does it stop at 80px (intrinsic size)?
  261. # [22:58] <dholbert> fantasai, mm, stops at intrinsic size
  262. # [22:58] <fantasai> dholbert: yeah
  263. # [22:58] <fantasai> dholbert: Like I said, I think that would be very surprising
  264. # [22:59] <dholbert> well, if someone is surprised by that, they'd equally be surprised by the fact that their "width" has no effect in any other situations, too...
  265. # [22:59] <dholbert> (With a larger container)
  266. # [23:00] <fantasai> no, what's surprising is that the intrinsic size is used in place of the specified size
  267. # [23:00] <fantasai> if neither were used, that would be unsurprising
  268. # [23:00] <fantasai> neither is used in the large container case
  269. # [23:01] <fantasai> so that's fine
  270. # [23:01] <dholbert> fantasai, sorry, "stops at intrinsic size" = "stops at specified height * intrinsic-ratio"
  271. # [23:01] <dholbert> i.e. that's what I meant to say
  272. # [23:02] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
  273. # [23:03] <dholbert> I do agree that it'd be surprising if the intrinsic size stuck around, despite a completely different height & width being specified & despite the flex container trying to shrink the item to a smaller size
  274. # [23:04] <dholbert> but I'm not as sure it's as badly-surprising for the intrinsic ratio to stick around & have an influence if you've specified an explicit cross size... still perhaps a bit confusing, though
  275. # [23:04] <dholbert> anyway, /me looks at that message you linked above
  276. # [23:06] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  277. # [23:10] <fantasai> I think the basic idea we tried to follow was that we do an implied minimum of the content size
  278. # [23:10] <fantasai> but if various explicitly-specified things are smaller than that, we decrease the implied minimum accordingly
  279. # [23:11] <fantasai> we never increase it
  280. # [23:11] <fantasai> (since it's supposed to be a minimum. We take the minimum of the reasonably-useful minimums.)
  281. # [23:11] <dholbert> so the scenario we're worried about is something like this: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/6058633 ?
  282. # [23:12] <dholbert> (^ is w.r.t. the www-style post you linked above, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0009.html )
  283. # [23:14] <dholbert> in Gecko, we do a 2-pass layout to render that right now. (1 pass with synthesized auto-height to resolve the "min-height:auto", and 1 pass at its actual final height), FWIW
  284. # [23:15] <fantasai> I think the scenario is more like
  285. # [23:15] <fantasai> <div style="height: 50px; min-height: max-content">
  286. # [23:15] <fantasai> <div style="height: 50%">....</div>
  287. # [23:15] <fantasai> </div>
  288. # [23:16] * fantasai having a bit of trouble with the flex analogue atm
  289. # [23:16] <dholbert> fantasai, (this ^ is just blocks, yes? no flex?)
  290. # [23:16] <fantasai> yeah
  291. # [23:17] <fantasai> although the analogous case exists for flex
  292. # [23:17] <dholbert> right
  293. # [23:19] <dholbert> fantasai, presumably in any case, we don't care about the effects of the percentage on the container's max-content height, right?
  294. # [23:20] <dholbert> i.e. if "..." is 1000px tall, we don't want to end up with the container's max-content resolving to 2000px, do we?
  295. # [23:20] <dholbert> (I don't think that's in any of the proposals in that post; just want to be clear that this is a non-option)
  296. # [23:21] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  297. # [23:28] <fantasai> I'm not sure, maybe C was that option?
  298. # [23:28] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  299. # [23:28] <fantasai> oh, no it was something else
  300. # [23:28] <fantasai> yeah, i think that would be D. :)
  301. # [23:28] <dholbert> heh. :)
  302. # [23:29] <dholbert> anyway: I'm not sure / I don't have a strong preference
  303. # [23:29] <fantasai> I thin C. would be, make the item 500px tall
  304. # [23:29] <dholbert> I think so too, yeah. (and its contents would overflow its 500px height, which is probably fine)
  305. # [23:29] <fantasai> B. would result in 25px
  306. # [23:29] <dholbert> right
  307. # [23:30] <dholbert> and A would result in 1000px on the child (ignoring the 50%)
  308. # [23:30] <fantasai> A. would be 1000px (ignore percentage)
  309. # [23:30] <fantasai> yes
  310. # [23:30] <dholbert> yeah
  311. # [23:30] <dholbert> *jinx*
  312. # [23:30] <fantasai> heh
  313. # [23:30] <fantasai> K
  314. # [23:30] <fantasai> If you come up with an opinion, let us know =)
  315. # [23:31] <dholbert> C seems the most "correct", albeit with a perf cost
  316. # [23:31] <dholbert> but as long as it doesn't trigger stacked 2-pass layout *by default*, the cost doesn't seem too bad to me
  317. # [23:32] <fantasai> well
  318. # [23:32] <fantasai> we have the flex min-content case
  319. # [23:32] <fantasai> sorry
  320. # [23:33] <fantasai> min-size: auto
  321. # [23:34] <fantasai> so if you are nesting main-axis percentage inside a flex item, and your main-axis size is definite, you will run into this
  322. # [23:34] * fantasai is not sure how often a main-axis size is definite
  323. # [23:34] <dholbert> yeah... also if you're flexible, I think
  324. # [23:35] <dholbert> because then you have to (a) measure the min-content size, (b) flex, (c) re-layout at the resulting flexed size
  325. # [23:35] <dholbert> (er, sorry, I might be talking about something slightly different)
  326. # [23:36] <dholbert> I forget if a flexible main-size establishes a definite size for children to resolve percentages against... I think it does
  327. # [23:37] <fantasai> in general or just when the basis is non-auto?
  328. # [23:37] <fantasai> sorry, non-intrinsic
  329. # [23:37] <fantasai> indefinite
  330. # [23:37] <dholbert> in gecko, I think it does, in general
  331. # [23:37] <fantasai> interesting
  332. # [23:38] <dholbert> (I don't recall if that's been explicitly decided on anywhere though)
  333. # [23:38] <fantasai> I remember talking about it, actually
  334. # [23:38] <fantasai> but I don't remember where it would show up in the spec
  335. # [23:40] <dholbert> fantasai, looks like it might be in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#definite-sizes
  336. # [23:41] <dholbert> fantasai, item #2 there seems to say a flex item's main-size should be considered definite (for resolving percentages) if its flex-basis is definite
  337. # [23:41] <fantasai> eyp
  338. # [23:41] <dholbert> though it doesn't say what to do if the flex-basis is not definite
  339. # [23:42] <fantasai> I would assume that means the main size is not definite
  340. # [23:42] <dholbert> seems like it, yeah
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The end :)