/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-09-09 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Sep 09 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [06:05] * Topic is '#css http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014#agenda'
# [06:05] * Set by glazou2 on Mon Sep 08 16:17:19
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# [07:09] * Topic is '#css http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014#agenda'
# [07:09] * Set by glazou2 on Mon Sep 08 16:17:19
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# [07:19] * Topic is '#css http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014#agenda'
# [07:19] * Set by glazou2 on Mon Sep 08 16:17:19
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# [09:07] <plinss> zakim, remind me in 9 hours to go home
# [09:07] <Zakim> ok, plinss
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# [09:13] <fantasai> Topic: Path Motion as FXTF
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# [09:13] <ChrisL> hober: yes that makes sense
# [09:13] * glazou2 got milk!
# [09:14] <ChrisL> krit: (previously) want to joint publish with SVG WG
# [09:14] <ChrisL> topic: motion path
# [09:14] <ChrisL> RESOLVED: joint publish css motion paths with SVG WG
# [09:14] <ChrisL> topic: future f2f meetings
# [09:15] <ChrisL> glazou2: tpac is first, register already, after 1 Oct fee doubles
# [09:15] <ChrisL> hober: third day on Sunday
# [09:15] <ChrisL> (no)
# [09:15] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2014JulSep/0120.html says the fee goes up after 8 October
# [09:16] <ChrisL> krit: joint meeting with SVG
# [09:16] <ChrisL> glazou2: enough ppl on Thurs?
# [09:16] <ChrisL> (yes)
# [09:16] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
# [09:16] <ChrisL> glazou2: AC also part of Thursday
# [09:17] <ChrisL> dbaron: very long lunch with AC meetings and ad hoc then
# [09:17] <ChrisL> ... 4 hours for ad hoc and unconference stuff and AC
# [09:17] <ChrisL> glazou2: ok so joint meet first 2 hours Thurs am
# [09:18] * dbaron likes 2014/11/TPAC being for a TPAC in 2014-10
# [09:18] <ChrisL> ... also hotel reservations are filling up and rate increases after a few weeks
# [09:18] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/2015
# [09:18] <ChrisL> glazou2: next f2f at Google Australia. First week feb in Sydney.
# [09:18] * zcorpan_ dbaron dates are hard
# [09:18] <ChrisL> ... want to make a firm decison so we can book flights
# [09:19] <ChrisL> krit: would have preferred Jan
# [09:19] <ChrisL> ChrisL: SVG meeting same time same week
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# [09:20] <ChrisL> hober: (checking with dino)
# [09:21] <ChrisL> (fares discussion)
# [09:23] <ChrisL> krit:: is how about Mon-Weds and Thurs-Sat?
# [09:24] <ChrisL> (more fares juggling, exclaiming, moaning)
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# [09:25] <ChrisL> Thu 5 to Sat 7 with FX on Weds?
# [09:26] <ChrisL> glazou2: Sat means losing Mon, arr Tues
# [09:26] <ChrisL> tab: coming back takes -3 hours with dateline
# [09:27] <ChrisL> (flight scheduling for SF bay area)
# [09:29] <ChrisL> RESOLVED: Mon-Tue SVG, Weds FX, Thu-Fri CSS
# [09:29] <ChrisL> glazou2: next host is bloomberg
# [09:30] <ChrisL> ... in NY city
# [09:30] <ChrisL> plh: TPAC 2015 likely Japan
# [09:31] <ChrisL> hober: NY in May?
# [09:32] <ChrisL> andrey: sure
# [09:32] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning
# [09:32] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/2015
# [09:32] <ChrisL> steve: AC early May, Paris
# [09:32] <ChrisL> peter: though it was early April
# [09:33] <ChrisL> hober: Europe is missing out for the next few, then
# [09:34] <ChrisL> glazou2: first week of May not good
# [09:34] <ChrisL> steve: last week may bad
# [09:34] <ChrisL> dbaron: JSconf ? when is it
# [09:34] <astearns_> s/steve/dauwhe/
# [09:35] <ChrisL> (mid may seems the best, with time after Australia)
# [09:35] * ChrisL sorry
# [09:36] <ChrisL> elika: lets find out more about May conferences
# [09:36] <fantasai> s/elika/fantasai/g
# [09:36] <ChrisL> glazou2: proposal is spometime 18-22 May, NYC, host Bloomberg
# [09:37] <ChrisL> glazou2: september?
# [09:37] <dbaron> I've been live-editing http://wiki.csswg.org/planning as we decide things
# [09:38] <ChrisL> tab: London or Paris, hosted Google
# [09:38] <ChrisL> glazou2: ok to host twice
# [09:38] <ChrisL> tab: (its ok)
# [09:39] <ChrisL> shane: or Zurich
# [09:39] <ChrisL> hober: dino confirms Aus dates OK for him
# [09:40] <dbaron> people want to avoid last week of August and first week of September
# [09:41] <dbaron> though maybe last week of August is ok
# [09:41] <dbaron> US Labor Day is September 7, 2015
# [09:42] <ChrisL> week of 24 Aug, London or Zurich
# [09:42] <ChrisL> steve: rome?
# [09:42] <ChrisL> glazou2: hotels much more expensive in London
# [09:42] <ChrisL> dbaron: depends where
# [09:43] <ChrisL> tab: Zurich is reasonable, good hotel in easy walk of office
# [09:46] <ChrisL> (tpac 2015 date speculation)
# [09:46] <ChrisL> plh: 26-30 October
# [09:46] <ChrisL> ... in Yokohama perhaps
# [09:46] <ChrisL> ... Sapporo or Osaka
# [09:46] <ChrisL> fantasai : much prefer week after IETF
# [09:47] <ChrisL> ... 9-13 Nov
# [09:47] <ChrisL> topic: gcpm3
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# [09:48] <ChrisL> dauwhe: lots of topics to discuss all relayted to paginated views
# [09:48] <ChrisL> ... wondering how to move gcpm3 fwds
# [09:48] <ChrisL> ... much is relatively uncontroverttial and implemented by prince and antennahouse
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# [09:48] <ChrisL> s/tt/t/
# [09:48] <astearns_> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-gcpm/
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# [09:49] <plh> s/in Yokohama peharps/IETF is in Yokohama/
# [09:50] <dbaron> I think http://wiki.csswg.org/planning#upcoming-meetings reflects what we just decided for 2015, but somebody should probably check it
# [09:50] <ChrisL> dauwhe: named strings is well interop, has been for 5 years
# [09:50] <ChrisL> ... few issues or comments
# [09:51] <ChrisL> dauwhe: running elements is controvertial
# [09:51] <ChrisL> ... moves element content around, lots of concern about this, as css wants to have a more general method
# [09:51] <ChrisL> ... region flows
# [09:52] <ChrisL> ... maybe remove running elements and footnoptes to gcpm4, move rest forward
# [09:52] <ChrisL> glazou2: are they compat implemented/
# [09:52] <ChrisL> dauwhe: prince has a completely different syntax from a much older draft
# [09:53] <ChrisL> glazou2: so imps not interoperable and syntax is hacky and badly specified
# [09:53] <ChrisL> ... underlying mechanism poorly documented, not really implementable
# [09:53] <ChrisL> dauwhe: yes its not like the other things
# [09:54] <ChrisL> alan; the feature is good but the way it is specced is not
# [09:54] <ChrisL> glazou2: antennahouse implement what is in the spec now
# [09:54] <ChrisL> steve: deprecate or change?
# [09:55] <ChrisL> dauwhe: ah prefix everything, prince does not
# [09:55] <ChrisL> glazou2: ah said reimplementing nrew stuff was very uinlikely
# [09:56] <ChrisL> fantasai: could work around it, most of it is straightforward adds to generated content, move page selectors to paged media
# [09:56] <dbaron> There seems to be something making SFO->SYD flights particularly expensive the weekend before the dates we chose for Sydney, particularly the Friday-Sunday (+US$300) and Saturday-Monday (+US$500) flights
# [09:57] <ChrisL> dauwhe: yes that makes sense
# [09:57] <ChrisL> fantasai: both specs need to be moved forward
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# [09:58] <ChrisL> glazou2: gcpm3
# [09:58] <ChrisL> glazou2: footnotes are pure magic
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# [09:59] <ChrisL> SimonSapin: should ping AH on this
# [09:59] <ChrisL> fantasai: logical split for paged media and gcpm3
# [09:59] <ChrisL> steve; old specs shoudl;say they are not being worked on
# [10:00] <ChrisL> fantasai: can document cutrrent stuff and say it has issues and we are looking for better solutions
# [10:00] <ChrisL> glazou2: yes, want to see these issues in the spec
# [10:01] <ChrisL> ... and feature is at risk until solved
# [10:01] <ChrisL> steve: prefer to leave at risk mentionuntil we get to CR
# [10:01] <ChrisL> dauwhe: we do hjave a way we want to proceed based on regions and page templates
# [10:02] <ChrisL> ... some of that is in gcpm4
# [10:02] <ChrisL> ... new ED a couple of days ago
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# [10:03] <ChrisL> glazou2: footnotes needs generated hyperlinks, we dont have that elsewhere in css. will happen with references, lists of pages etc it is needed generally
# [10:03] <shans_> dbaron: Air NZ has return economy tickets for $1374, flying out on Sunday and back on Saturday
# [10:05] <ChrisL> ChrisL: we can avoid a lot of issues by not changing the dom, just the area trees
# [10:05] <ChrisL> alan; but assistive tech needs it in the dom probably
# [10:05] <ChrisL> peter: raises issue of events
# [10:06] <ChrisL> zcorpan_: what is the event model, target,, cancel events etc etc
# [10:06] <dbaron> shans, yeah, it's much less expensive to leave Sunday or later, though that's risky for a WG meeting starting Wednesday
# [10:07] <ChrisL> Bert: latest opera does not implement clink, it stopped wit Opera12. It is very useful
# [10:07] <ChrisL> ... originally for WAP so a bit strange
# [10:07] <ChrisL> glazou2: can we start from that
# [10:07] <ChrisL> Bert: should have a way to make things active elements
# [10:08] <ChrisL> SteveZ: make generated content a first class citizen, make it soemthing that can be styled itself
# [10:08] <ChrisL> glazou2: depends what you mean by generated content. is it :befotre and : after or more complex?
# [10:09] <ChrisL> SteveZ: want to make gc itself having structure so it can do more things. can be restyled
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# [10:09] <ChrisL> ... shadow dom has this
# [10:09] <shans_> dbaron: oh, I see. Misunderstood your initial comment.
# [10:09] <ChrisL> TabAtkins: css syntax not best way to make compex content
# [10:10] <ChrisL> SteveZ: gradually adding more tweaks is poor. better to decide we want it structured. preferable to use shadow dom
# [10:11] <ChrisL> peter: food for thought
# [10:11] <ChrisL> ... between shadow dom and css gc
# [10:11] <ChrisL> dauwhe: some pieces already there, better to use them rather than hand wavy magic
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# [10:12] <ChrisL> peter: can cetainly explain css gc in terms of shadow dom
# [10:12] <ChrisL> dauwhe: all sounds like a good plan for moving cgpm3 to specs that make more sense
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# [10:13] <ChrisL> ... working on running heads with regions, been working with peter sorotokins epub adaptive layouyt
# [10:13] <ChrisL> .. can get flowing footnotes. running heads are harder because there neeed to nbe more properties applied tothe flow
# [10:14] <ChrisL> ... filling boxes with current eleent but fallback./persistence if not on a given page
# [10:14] <ChrisL> alan: paper describes this well
# [10:14] <ChrisL> ... (looks for)
# [10:14] <ChrisL> .. wiki page of ideas
# [10:14] <ChrisL> ... given flow content up to a chapter chage
# [10:15] <ChrisL> dauwhe: content in both running heads and regular ttree. copy not move
# [10:15] <ChrisL> ... use in regular tree and also in region chain
# [10:16] <ChrisL> SteveZ: do flows restart? if so it avoids repeating thinbgs
# [10:16] <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/Style/2013/paged-media-tasks#complex-headings some ideas for marking content for running headers and still using it in a flow
# [10:16] <ChrisL> fantasai: could do flow-from as a property or a function in the content property. then can have flow-from and copy-from
# [10:16] <ChrisL> SteveZ: needs flow-into to do that
# [10:17] <ChrisL> Bert: thinking about sticky copies. its more a pull model rather than a push model
# [10:17] <ChrisL> ... running header pulls from avilable candidates
# [10:18] <ChrisL> ... some elements marked never copy. thinking of a syntax that makes it clear we are marking elements as candidates
# [10:18] <fantasai> ^ ... that have been labelled
# [10:18] <ChrisL> dauwhe: like a dictionary running head
# [10:18] <ChrisL> Bert: headers havce parts in common but not all identical
# [10:19] <ChrisL> dauwhe: soundsl like epub adapttive layouyt
# [10:19] <ChrisL> dauwhe: candidates only within x number of pages then they expire
# [10:20] <ChrisL> glazou2: some of them apply to non-paginated models as well, and then become far harder to explain
# [10:20] <ChrisL> SteveZ: all applies to a single page
# [10:21] <ChrisL> glazou2: did not say the viewport is a page
# [10:21] <ChrisL> dauwhe: nearest candidate displayed in a fixed region as page scrolls
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# [10:22] <ChrisL> peter; can define so it also works in paginated views. its a better model than treating pages as a special thing
# [10:22] <ChrisL> dauwhe: largest question; what is a page?
# [10:22] <ChrisL> dauwhe: dpig dom pagination
# [10:23] <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Pagination
# [10:23] <ChrisL> dauwhe: api for which page displays
# [10:24] <ChrisL> alan: set of requirements similar to thoose for regions api
# [10:24] <ChrisL> ... lists map pretty closely
# [10:24] <ChrisL> ... will need APIs like this to extend it
# [10:25] <ChrisL> dauwhe: still thinking w=hich part of this list get addressed first
# [10:25] <ChrisL> alan; overflow section had a heading for paginated comntent (scribe missed)
# [10:26] <ChrisL> ... page templates proposal well recieved by cant work on until we have pages. need paginated view
# [10:26] <ChrisL> Rossen_: this was the motivation for regions
# [10:27] <ChrisL> ... 2 things often seen, all focus on layout and programmability is often less developed
# [10:28] <ChrisL> ... for non-print paged layout, need a sound object model
# [10:28] <ChrisL> ... defining OM fpor regions was a hard task. Using GC moves us away from using something ewell defined intoa less defined area
# [10:29] <ChrisL> ... windows store apps use epub viewers that started using regions, got good feedback to use region as a page
# [10:29] <ChrisL> ... dont define a page, app author defines what is apage. browser is one app thst m makes pages
# [10:29] <ChrisL> ... bunch of regions paginate content
# [10:29] <ChrisL> ... define the fragmentation
# [10:30] <ChrisL> Rossen_: regions is a fundamental low level building block for any templating model
# [10:30] <ChrisL> ... do not solve the application problems, solve the platform problems. foes fragmentation do enoughj
# [10:31] <ChrisL> ... what breaks should a fragmentation context respect? should be user defined, use named fragment breaks, matched on app level
# [10:31] <ChrisL> ... define what a page is and what frag breaks ti use
# [10:32] <ChrisL> dauwhe: agree with most of that
# [10:33] <ChrisL> ... do not limit to underlying building blocks. can also make a high level pagination solution as long as it gives us sctipt acces to what happened so its not magic
# [10:33] <ChrisL> Rossen_: great
# [10:33] <ChrisL> ... so you made a simple repeater template to make pages
# [10:33] <ChrisL> alan: but ok to expose only overflow pages without flow into wit (....)
# [10:34] <ChrisL> (scribe missed0
# [10:34] <ChrisL> SteveZ: goal is high level declarative mechanisms ahtt are useful, also apis to get at the creatyed objects
# [10:35] <ChrisL> SteveZ: need to see what people actually use in practice, after experimentsation. then add high level mechanisms
# [10:35] <ChrisL> glazou2: we are doing the same thing with mottion path, drasstrically somplifies complex transforms
# [10:35] <ChrisL> (break)
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# [11:05] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
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# [11:07] <dbaron> projector is showing http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-gcpm-4/
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# [11:08] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: The motivation for this was playing around with regions seemed to be a better path forward for running heads/footnotes in gcpm3.
# [11:08] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: This is an attempt to collect some of the bits I think would need to be added to Regions to get solve these use-cases.
# [11:08] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: First thing, sometimes we want the <h1>s to display in the document normally, and *also* pull their content into a region for a running head.
# [11:08] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: So it seems we need a property to do this.
# [11:09] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: We've argued about names, so it's flow-policy here in the first draft.
# [11:09] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: flow-policy: extract | copy;
# [11:09] <astearns_> could also be a keyword on flow-into
# [11:09] <TabAtkins> dauwhe:
# [11:10] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: [explains example from spec]
# [11:10] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Next is the idea of "persisting" the flow, so running heads stay the same on each page until a new one fills the region.
# [11:10] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: flow-persist property
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# [11:11] <dauwhe> http://www.idpf.org/epub/pgt/
# [11:11] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Peter Sorotokin mentioned this in the epub adaptive layout spec.
# [11:11] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: epub had "flow-options" which had exclusive | static | last
# [11:11] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: "static" would take the first instance of that element in the doc and keep that forever.
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# [11:12] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Which wasn't useful for running heads - it never changed.
# [11:12] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: so "persist" just uses the last one until something happens to replace it.
# [11:12] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Sometimes if there are multiple istances of the elemento n the page you need to be able to tell which one to use.
# [11:12] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: So first/start/last/first-except values.
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# [11:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Those seem to be some modest extensions to Regions that would make running heads possible to implement on top of Regions.
# [11:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Next piece is page templates.
# [11:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Page spec has 16 predefined margin boxes.
# [11:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Really quite useful, and been great for making books for a few years.
# [11:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: But only a small subset of the possibiilities we'd like to address.
# [11:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: The 16 margin boxes are nearly interoperable implemented across the batch processers - Prince/WeazyPrint/etc
# [11:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: But some aspects of how they lay out in the margin is magic.
# [11:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: And they don't cover all the cases you may want when you lay out in a book.
# [11:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: So the idea is to allow the creation of *any* kind of margin box through @slot that can override the definition of these 16 named margins.
# [11:15] <TabAtkins> glazou: Those margin boxes then just become a predefined special-case of @slot, maybe through a UA stylesheet.
# [11:15] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: There've been various syntaxes for this kind of things, and @slot seems to be the easiest thing so far.
# [11:16] <TabAtkins> glazou: Also they allow footnotes/ref areas.
# [11:16] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Right, extending it beyond the page margin area to do side notes, pull quotes, etc. Using Regions to take content form the document and placing it somewhere special.
# [11:16] <TabAtkins> astearns_: Is this *only* for creating paginated views, or is it useful for single-page views as well?
# [11:17] <TabAtkins> astearns_: I'm thinking of wikipedia pages that have multiple slots for marginalia and references, seems useful.
# [11:17] <TabAtkins> glazou: Yeah, should be usable in ordinary pages too.
# [11:17] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: In Page Template and epub adative layout, these are defined inside of an outer template, not in @page.
# [11:18] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: We might have both @slot in @page and outside, or some alternative that handles both.
# [11:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: This is similar to what iBooks and such does.
# [11:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: Easy to generate those rules for CSS from those apps.
# [11:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: Dont' see any technical difficulty with my editor vendor's hat on.
# [11:18] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Next, footnotes.
# [11:19] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: If we ahve a foot note in markup, we can flow it into a region...
# [11:19] <TabAtkins> glazou: The fact that you have a counter in both footnote and the leftover ref is through flow-policy:copy, so it gets copied and shows up in both places.
# [11:19] <TabAtkins> glazou: But we still need a hyperlink.
# [11:20] <TabAtkins> hober: What happens if I call getBoundingClientRect() on something with "copy"?
# [11:21] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: The element generates a *ton* of boxes, so it's a really big bounding rect.
# [11:21] <TabAtkins> Bert: [something about links]
# [11:22] <TabAtkins> plinss: Bert was talking about a case where the footnote is stored somewhere else, and there's just a link to that footnote somewhere; Bert wants to repalce that with a footnote counter and possibly a link to that footnote.
# [11:24] <TabAtkins> Bert: So one case is using an existing link and displaying the target as a footnote.
# [11:24] <TabAtkins> Bert: But in this case [referring to the example] you dont' need a link. It's UA behavior.
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# [11:25] <TabAtkins> chrisl: You were just arguing the opposite half an hour ago, about clinks!
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# [11:25] <TabAtkins> glazou: [provides an example]
# [11:25] <TabAtkins> plinss: Bert's is that if we define them in terms of something the UA can udnerstand, the UA can make them links via UA magic.
# [11:26] <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't disagree that that's possible, but I'd rather explain the magic, so people can use it for other things.
# [11:26] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Do these show up in browser history?
# [11:26] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: As long as they ahve IDs, yeah, it should be normal navigation.
# [11:26] <TabAtkins> hober: What if they dont' have IDs?
# [11:27] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Then they wont' work. You need IDs.
# [11:27] <TabAtkins> plh: What if you put this link into some other browser?
# [11:28] <chrisl> that should work. useless otherwise
# [11:28] <TabAtkins> someone: What about :link, :visited?
# [11:28] <TabAtkins> Bert: You need markup for that.
# [11:28] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Nah, no requirement there.
# [11:28] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Document languages define what a link is.
# [11:29] <TabAtkins> Bert: You need events for pseudo-elements.
# [11:29] <TabAtkins> glazou: Yes.
# [11:29] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: You ccan already clink on ::before, etc.
# [11:29] * chrisl starts editing CSS4-ShadowDomMaker module
# [11:30] <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't think we need to expose anything special at the API level, besides events, to make generated links.
# [11:30] <TabAtkins> s/plinss/plh/
# [11:30] * dauwhe "Having to read footnotes resembles having to go downstairs to answer the door while in the midst of making love." --Noel Coward
# [11:31] <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't think that the linking behavior should be defined in GCPM. So where?
# [11:32] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: There's no existing spec for it, so it goes somewhere new.
# [11:32] <TabAtkins> plh: And need to think about its mapping to ARIA.
# [11:33] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Outside of linking, this region stuff gets us at least some of the way to footnotes.
# [11:33] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: There's still a strange relationship between the footnote ref and the footnote itself.
# [11:33] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: They need to be on the same page, which is impossible in some cases - they need to be able to overflow.
# [11:34] <TabAtkins> plinss: In general you want the slot to grow to the point where it barely doesn't push its own footnote ref to the next page.
# [11:34] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: That's a thorny problem.
# [11:35] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think, unfortunately, that that's something we need to do footnote-specific; we probably can't generalize.
# [11:35] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: I just want to minimize the magic/specialization to what needs it.
# [11:35] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: There's some generalization possibly here - we have invisible markers, maybe some hint that the footnote needs to be near the marker, etc.
# [11:36] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: It would make my job easier if I could generate content at where the footnote disappeared from, to fill with a content.
# [11:37] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Maybe look at old Content drafts - Hixie defined some stuff for that.
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# [11:37] <TabAtkins> Bert: General problem of footnotes is that the ref is implicit; people expect to mark up just the footnote, not what it's a footnote *to*.
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> glazou: You've seen the flow-policy:copy? Maybe a way to extract the element to the footnote section, leaving only the outermost node behind (to fill and link).
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> glazou: You could use similar rules to generate a footnote index.
# [11:40] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: This mechanism allows us to have arbitrary numbers of footnotes and position them somewhere else. Probably lets us meet the crazy demands.
# [11:42] <TabAtkins> [some missing discussion about linking to pages, with some sort of selector-in-fragment thing]
# [11:42] <chrisl> http://example.org/foo.html#selector(some-selector-here)
# [11:43] <TabAtkins> hober: That uses something called epub CFI, which lets you robustly link into an epub.
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# [11:43] <TabAtkins> Bert: Another wrinkle - the footnote area needs to conditionally generate, so if there are no footnotes, the border doesn't show up either.
# [11:44] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Yes, I tried to re-use the required-flow from Page Templates for this, so if there wasn't anything flowing in it just wouldn't generate.
# [11:44] <TabAtkins> astearns_: That's what it was for.
# [11:44] <TabAtkins> glazou: Do we want a WD?
# [11:45] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Dont' think it's ready for one yet.
# [11:46] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think it is. If the issues are in prose. Just so people can talk about it.
# [11:46] <TabAtkins> someone: This isn't really just GCPM anymore, though.
# [11:46] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Maybe call it Books?
# [11:46] <TabAtkins> glazou: Dont' care about the name, just call it something.
# [11:46] <TabAtkins> plinss: I want us to avoid making GCPM garbage-collection.
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# [11:47] <TabAtkins> plinss: Let's just put them in other appropriate modules, or make new ones. If we need a palce to store thingss, we have a wiki.
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# [11:48] <TabAtkins> Bert: I notice these don't just apply to pages. Can we just define that the browser is a single page?
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# [11:48] <TabAtkins> plinss: I agree that we need a better definition of "page", and we should stop differentiating between "page behavior" and "screen behavior".
# [11:48] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Maybe put the first part here in Regions level 1 or 2?
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# [11:49] <TabAtkins> glazou: Agree. And the footnotes stuff should go in a Hyperlink module, with some notes about how to create footnotes.
# [11:50] <TabAtkins> plinss: I wanna explain @page in terms of a generic template mechanism.
# [11:50] <TabAtkins> plinss: No reason you shouldn't be able to add slots of an arbitrary <div> or whatever.
# [11:51] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: I'd be happy to held edit Page Template. Should I also be an editor of Content?
# [11:51] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Sure; we're not doing much with it right now.
# [11:52] <TabAtkins> Bert: Say you had a paper page with a template, you have to define what happens with overflow.
# [11:53] <TabAtkins> Bert: You can repeat the template on the next page...
# [11:53] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Page Template has a mechanism for linking slots between multiple templates.
# [11:54] <TabAtkins> Bert: But you sometimes also need to control which template to use based on previous templates, or sometimes based on content.
# [11:54] * dauwhe http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/#selection-from-required-flows
# [11:54] <TabAtkins> astearns_: Page Template has required-flow, to tell if content will show up to help decide what template to use. It's a first step, but this mechanism ccan be extended.
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# [11:59] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Regarding paginated views, interesting discussion happened in the break. [something about presentational box tree]
# [11:59] <TabAtkins> plinss: The gist is that we need to redefine pagination in terms of the box tree. Our current model with multiple viewports is kinda broken.
# [11:59] <TabAtkins> plinss: So a paginated doc is just a series of anonymous boxes that content flows into, etc. Need some box-tree APIs, which we've talked about before.
# [12:01] <TabAtkins> astearns_: Would it make sense for that project to take on overflow:paged and describe everything in that model?
# [12:01] <TabAtkins> plinss: Possibly.
# [12:02] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Are you intending to actually create a spec at this point?
# [12:02] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: Or maybe a joint project with TAG?
# [12:02] <TabAtkins> plinss: We talked before about just making a box-tree API, as a longer-term project.
# [12:04] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'm definitely more interested in work on generic stuff like that, than pseudo-elements and at-rules for specific solutions.
# [12:04] <TabAtkins> plinss: We might be able to define a deep model, but make conformance shallow enough that implementations can work their way there without having to dive all the way down.
# [12:05] <TabAtkins> hober: Hard to tell what's up until I see something.
# [12:05] <TabAtkins> plinss: Right. Plan is to deprecate the geometry stuff from DOM, and have a way to get from DOM to box tree, and query geometry from there. Have events on boxes. Etc.
# [12:05] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ehhhhhhh
# [12:05] <TabAtkins> plinss: Maybe not all at once. But eventually.
# [12:05] <dbaron> (specifically concerned about having events on boxes)
# [12:06] <TabAtkins> hober: I think equating these features with a box tree api is not necessarily a good idea. At least, less clear.
# [12:06] <TabAtkins> plinss: I think we can start by defining the model, and very gradually decide what to expose.
# [12:07] <dbaron> (I also said (right after my first comment) that I was still concerned about defining box tree api given implementation differences)
# [12:07] <TabAtkins> astearns_: Being impatient, I'd rather not tie paginated views to this topic. I think it should be informed by that work, but should run in parallel.
# [12:07] * TabAtkins dbaron, sorry, I didn't hear that part
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# [12:07] <TabAtkins> plinss: Right. I think it'll run in parallel with everything for some time.
# [12:08] <TabAtkins> astearns_: So Opera is very interested in getting paginated views implemented. I'd like to see the group get more interested in it.
# [12:08] <TabAtkins> hober: Have there been more changes to review?
# [12:08] <TabAtkins> astearns_: It was slightly defined in GCPM, it's now completely undefined.
# [12:08] <dauwhe> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow-3/#paginated-overflow
# [12:09] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: The whole section is just issues now.
# [12:10] <TabAtkins> florian: Even the little that Opera implemented didn't exactly match the specs. There are people whose brain can be picked to see how that worked.
# [12:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There was an idea to use @page to style pages in a paginated view; the viewport becomes a special case.
# [12:11] <zcorpan_> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.12/paged-overflow/ might be relevant
# [12:11] <TabAtkins> astearns_: David, could you commit to filling in that section?
# [12:11] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Maybe. I'd like to have someone else help out too; I think my work on T&A is more important.
# [12:12] * chrisl google image search "events on boxes" has exactly one result https://avatars3.githubusercontent.com/u/400289?v=2&s=460
# [12:12] <TabAtkins> astearns_: dauwhe, is this another spec you might want to edit?
# [12:12] <TabAtkins> astearns_: I can help with the API side.
# [12:12] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: I can commit to at least digging up what's in Håkon's old stuff.
# [12:12] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Håkon and I had a thread about that a few months ago.
# [12:13] <TabAtkins> plinss: I think we need a better definition of overflow, page templates, and update Paged Media to explain everything it's doing in terms of those two modules.
# [12:13] <TabAtkins> plinss: Is that Paged Media 3? Or 4?
# [12:15] <zcorpan_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0126.html - opera feedback on paged media
# [12:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'd say it's a few day sof work to ready it for a WD.
# [12:17] <TabAtkins> <br type=lunch>
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# [13:42] <astearns_> fantasai: http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/css/popularity
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# [13:43] <glazou2> Present: yesterday morning's attendance + szilles - yamamoto
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# [13:47] <plinss> zakim, pick a victim
# [13:47] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I don't know what conference this is
# [13:47] <plinss> zakim, this is css
# [13:47] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not see a conference named 'css' in progress or scheduled at this time
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# [13:47] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [13:47] <fantasai> Topic: Initial Letters
# [13:48] <fantasai> dauwhe: To my surprise and delight, WebKit implemented initial-letters last week.
# [13:48] <fantasai> dauwhe: We also got feedback from dhyatt
# [13:48] <fantasai> dauwhe: thread on www-style about that
# [13:49] <fantasai> dauwhe: Firstly, should have a WD, since ppl are doing this.
# [13:49] <fantasai> dauwhe: It's part of CSS Line layout, which is our oldest WD... from 2002
# [13:49] <fantasai> dauwhe: Can we publish a WD of the whole thing?
# [13:49] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we just comment out the rest of it
# [13:49] <fantasai> SteveZ: Put a note saying that text is under development
# [13:50] <fantasai> hober: Is there enough useful content in the old...
# [13:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: No.
# [13:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: There is useful content in the old stuff, but it's in an inconsistent half-revised state
# [13:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: So it's realy difficult to read unless you know what it's supposed to say
# [13:51] <fantasai> SteveZ: That keeps the pieces together, but lets you get it out
# [13:51] <dbaron> I think some of the problem was that back in 2003 I was afraid of being too destructive of the material already in the draft.
# [13:52] <fantasai> SteveZ: Leave sections 1 and 2, replacing text with note.
# [13:52] <fantasai> hober: We want to publish new WD of this thing, cool. In a thing already had fpwd.
# [13:52] <fantasai> dbaron: Probably also another patent policy
# [13:53] <fantasai> dbaron: so probably need another FPWD wrt patent policy
# [13:53] <fantasai> hober: I'd like initial-letter to go through fpwd soon
# [13:53] <fantasai> dauwhe: Talked about possibility of splitting it
# [13:54] * krit can’t we just add initial letter to GCPM and republish GCPM?
# [13:54] <fantasai> SteveZ: My suggestion for dealing with that is not th leave it blank, but point to 2.1 as the most up-to-date description of the content of these sections, and that it would be updated
# [13:54] * fantasai no
# [13:54] * krit fantasai ;)
# [13:54] * fantasai :)
# [13:54] <fantasai> SteveZ: Well, point at appropriate sections of 2.1
# [13:55] <fantasai> fantasai: Would want to make sure the first-letter clearing behavior that we discussed at last f2f is in the spec
# [13:55] <fantasai> dauwhe: Yes, should incorporate all recent feedback
# [13:57] <fantasai> [discussion of publishing vs. upcoming edits]
# [13:57] <fantasai> SteveZ: We can resolve on the plan
# [13:57] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of css-inline with initial-letter section intact, and 2 prior sections pointing to appropriate parts of 2.1, with note that they will be updated.
# [13:58] <fantasai> dauwhe: First issue is should initial-letter be a shorthand for inital-letter-size and initial-letter-drop
# [13:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think fantasai made a convincing argument that no, they shouldn't
# [13:58] <fantasai> florian: What was the argument?
# [13:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: They don't want to cascade independently.
# [13:58] <fantasai> SteveZ: I have an issue with the two things
# [13:59] <fantasai> SteveZ: In looking through my collection of various documents from various languages
# [13:59] <florian> I then agree with Fantasai's point
# [13:59] <fantasai> SteveZ: The size really only works for Western alphabets, doesn't really work for Indic, Thai, etc. Probably Tibetan as well. These have stacked bits, so the size of something varies.
# [13:59] <fantasai> SteveZ: You can't say the number of lines and figure out the font size, it might not quite correspond.
# [14:00] <hober> Re: shorthand or not, what about hyatt's point in <http://www.w3.org/mid/023DB250-5BFE-457E-8969-A42F8973DF70@apple.com>?
# [14:00] <fantasai> Bert: If I say my letter is #lines high, then what if those lines actually don't have all the same size?
# [14:01] <fantasai> SteveZ: I think you use the paragraph size
# [14:01] <astearns_> hober: I believe the control he's talking about could be addressed by allowing more than integers for the two values
# [14:01] <fantasai> dauwhe: ...
# [14:02] <fantasai> dauwhe: use baseline grid, or set the line-height
# [14:02] <hober> astearns_: or at least a <length> for the height, yeah
# [14:02] <fantasai> florian: Might want to draw distinction btw content of line making the line taller vs. using line grid
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# [14:03] <fantasai> dauwhe describes the circular dependency of initial-letter size and number of lines if content is accounted for.
# [14:03] <fantasai> florian: Does take into account things like line-grid and anything that can affect the line height other than content of the line?
# [14:04] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we can resolve that it's usng the line grid, if using line grid; else line-height of paragraph.
# [14:04] <fantasai> SteveZ: Yes. Which is kindof an implicit line grid.
# [14:04] <fantasai> dauwhe: What's the term for that line-height?
# [14:04] <fantasai> fantasai: 'line-height' of the containing block.
# [14:05] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [14:05] <fantasai> RESOLVED: initial-letter depends on line grid spacing or (if none) line-height of containing block. Does not depend on content of the lines.
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# [14:06] <fantasai> hober: Next issue is for non-Western cases you probably want to specify a lenght, not just number of lines, for cap-height
# [14:06] <fantasai> astearns: perhaps alignment as well, e.g. top-aligned.
# [14:06] <fantasai> fantasai: For CJK, I think Bobby Tung pointed out that you want ICB, not the em box or cap-height
# [14:07] <hober> s/ICB/ICF Top or Bottom/
# [14:07] <fantasai> fantasai: A lot of the font size tweaking for CJK is to get to the ICF size, but we can calculate that from font metrics.
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# [14:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: Probably needs to be lang-dependent.
# [14:08] <fantasai> fantasai: In many cases might be script-dependent, not lang-dependent
# [14:08] <fantasai> SteveZ: Depends on conventions
# [14:08] <fantasai> [of course]
# [14:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: We have formula for font-size in CJK, based on the paragraph text size and number of lines dropped
# [14:09] <fantasai> fantasai: I think he was just saying, you account for the gaps...
# [14:09] <fantasai> astearns: If there are adjustments needed
# [14:09] <fantasai> hober: Yeah. And I think we can put a length there.
# [14:10] <fantasai> hober: We have 2 values, right now. If you put one, it gets duplicated. What if 1 value is a length?
# [14:10] <fantasai> fantasai: I think you can have an auto value for the drop, and that would calculate the drop from the length value given in the size.
# [14:11] <fantasai> hober: Does that suggest we should switch the order of the two values?
# [14:11] <fantasai> fantasai: maybe?
# [14:11] <fantasai> (probably, yes, size should be first)
# [14:11] <hober> IIRC in Seoul we had size first
# [14:11] <fantasai> SteveZ shows an example of Kannada magazine article
# [14:11] * hober not that that matters
# [14:12] * fantasai did the spec accidentally switch that?
# [14:12] * hober yup
# [14:12] <fantasai> first-leter is centered inside a box with a border
# [14:12] <fantasai> SteveZ: The top of the box is what's aligned to the cap-height, not the characters
# [14:12] <fantasai> SteveZ: and the characters in the box are centered inside of that
# [14:13] <fantasai> astearns points out that the box is not really aligned to the text
# [14:13] <fantasai> though we could pretend they were trying
# [14:13] <fantasai> SteveZ: We can tell that the emphasis is on the box, not the character.
# [14:13] <fantasai> SteveZ: So trying to do something that's focused on the size of the font in terms of lines, might work well for Western text, but not necessarily for other text
# [14:14] <fantasai> fantasai: Depends on the ffect you're going for. In Wester text, a fancy illuminated letter might have same behavior
# [14:14] <fantasai> SteveZ: Might need to be able to specify alignment
# [14:14] <fantasai> SteveZ: I'm wholeheartedly in favor for simple syntax for common cases
# [14:15] <fantasai> SteveZ: I've examples of others without boxes, align to western baseline
# [14:15] <astearns_> my suggestion for the box case is to use a line-grid and box-snap the border box of a float to the grid
# [14:15] <fantasai> SteveZ: The way we've done this, very difficult to come back and say, use a different alignment point, or pick a different font-size
# [14:15] <fantasai> SteveZ: Need to think about ways to extend
# [14:15] <fantasai> SteveZ: Don't ahve any great ideas, except that you want to define a font size, not a height
# [14:16] <fantasai> dauwhe: This looks like single value-d thing that says "I want my box to take up 4 lines, and I want my letter centered in the box.
# [14:17] <fantasai> hober: :first-letter without initial-letter can do these cases
# [14:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Not really. Sizing of the box won't work if the glyph isn't centered in the embox to being with (e.g. latin letter A)
# [14:18] <fantasai> dauwhe: Is there a possibility of having some value of initial-letter-align, that could be chosen in this case, if I pick this value, align the top to the anging baseline, et.
# [14:18] <fantasai> SteveZ: We already made comment that they don't cascade independently for 2 values we have now
# [14:18] <fantasai> SteveZ: Guessing that a multi-value property than an indepenently cascading thing.
# [14:18] <fantasai> florian: That one does make sense as an independent property.
# [14:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Might be able to reuse vertical-align.
# [14:20] <fantasai> SteveZ: The alignment stuff in the section we're dropping has enough stuff, except doesn't say whether you want the top/bottom/center alignment
# [14:20] <fantasai> astearns_: I don't think we should be tyring to avoid the complexity of all these points
# [14:20] <fantasai> astearns_: I think we might postpone it, work ona 2-value property, knowing that in the future we may be adding alignment points in the future
# [14:21] <fantasai> florian: If we want to use vertical-align, we need ot figure that out now
# [14:21] <fantasai> astearns: I think vertical-align doesn't have enough
# [14:21] <fantasai> hober - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0211.html
# [14:22] <fantasai> SteveZ: Alan noted there's a distinction between aligning to the center of the middle line vs aligning to the center of a whole block, because lines might not be equal in size
# [14:22] <fantasai> fantasai: but we're assumign they are...
# [14:23] <fantasai> dbaron: But should we be making that assumption
# [14:23] <fantasai> fantasai: I guess if we have :first-line styling, we should account for that
# [14:24] * fantasai is a bit annoyed that the draft doesn't follow the F2F conclusions
# [14:24] * fantasai wrote those all out *very clearly*
# [14:24] <fantasai> [discussion of multi-pass algorithms, scribe missed the context]
# [14:25] * fantasai dauwhe, you did a pretty bad job of copying the f2f conclusions into the spec if you got the ordering wrong
# [14:25] <fantasai> astearns: Virtue of having consisten size for initial letters, virtue in dropping consistent number of lines
# [14:26] <fantasai> [..]
# [14:26] <fantasai> ...
# [14:27] <fantasai> dauwhe: Web authors already confused about superscripts disrupting line rhythm
# [14:27] <fantasai> dbaron: There's 2 solutions for that in the inline module
# [14:28] <fantasai> hober: Sounds like we should allow height
# [14:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Well, does the height mean the font-size or the box height or the glyph height...?
# [14:28] <hober> s/allow height/allow use of <length> as well as <integer> for height/
# [14:29] <dbaron> (i.e., the glyph height that in the <integer> case you're aligning to cap-height and baseline)
# [14:30] <fantasai> astearns_: What if instead of a length, we allow a percentage, that is a percentage of what auto would have been
# [14:31] <fantasai> fantasai: That doesn't seem useful. Unless you know the font's glyph proportions
# [14:31] <fantasai> astearns: well, font-size is similarly not useful
# [14:31] <fantasai> Bert: Useful for initial caps
# [14:31] <chrisl> what happens with initial letters which are capitals and have accents above the cap height
# [14:31] <fantasai> or initial letters which have descenders below the bottomof the first line?
# [14:32] <fantasai> ...
# [14:32] <astearns_> fantasai: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#initial-letter-exclusions
# [14:32] * fantasai right
# [14:33] <fantasai> hober explains the exclusion principle
# [14:33] <chrisl> exclusion is fine for descenders. does not cover accents though
# [14:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: another parameter is whether you push things down for stacking combining marks etc.
# [14:34] <fantasai> dauwhe: Similar problem with accents above
# [14:35] <fantasai> dauwhe: Want to maintain consistent font size
# [14:35] <fantasai> florian: Do we make sure we clear the stacked accents?
# [14:35] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we do need to push it down to make sure there's space
# [14:35] * hober wonders about <p><ruby style="initial-letter:3">...
# [14:35] <fantasai> dbaron: Economist does initial-caps that cover 2 lines. Js and Qs indent 3 lines
# [14:35] <fantasai> florian: Question was about accent *above*
# [14:36] * fantasai fun
# [14:36] * fantasai could say it doesn't apply to ruby
# [14:36] * fantasai alternately, treat ruby as ascenders/descenders
# [14:36] <fantasai> ...
# [14:36] * hober what about inter-character ruby?
# [14:36] <fantasai> SteveZ: Angstrom symbol
# [14:37] * hober (which hyatt has a patch for, btw)
# [14:37] * fantasai include that as extra "letter" in :first-line -- takes up advance
# [14:37] <fantasai> florian: [...]
# [14:37] * hober yeah, ascender in the normal case & that for bopomofo makes sense to me
# [14:38] <fantasai> florian: If you take J with circle on it, say how it clears, it works for that letter, why not work for other languages?
# [14:38] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:38] <fantasai> SteveZ: It would solve the no-collision problem. Wouldn't necessarily solve the artistic problem
# [14:38] <fantasai> SteveZ: Sometimes it's very hard to compute what that extra piece is in both directions.
# [14:39] <fantasai> SteveZ: Could use the bounding box, although in some fonts the bounding box isn't the bounding box......
# [14:39] <fantasai> SteveZ: E.g. in swash fonts, the bounding box often doesn't include parts of the ink
# [14:39] <fantasai> florian: Isn't the point of that so that you do get collisions?
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: Yes, but ppl kept overloading things, so
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: There's 3-4 sets of ascender/descender information
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: got misued, ppl, redefined it, got misused again, etc.
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: Don't see us getting anywhere
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: One way out of this
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: Is it more important that the font size stay consistent or that the line incursions stay believable?
# [14:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: You can't do both.
# [14:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: If we pick one, then answering what length means, will e easier thing to do.
# [14:41] <fantasai> dauwhe: Strongly support font-size consistency
# [14:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: me to
# [14:41] <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/Talks/2013/1003-Style-Amsterdam/scan-17.jpg An old manuscript with drop caps that cause non-reactangular exclusions even in other flows than its own
# [14:42] <fantasai> SteveZ: Assuming we want to keep font-size consistent, then we can solve the problem of what length means by describing how it sets a font size
# [14:42] <fantasai> SteveZ: So if you use the same length everywhere, you'll get the same font-size
# [14:42] <fantasai> hober: I have 12pt paragraph, initial-letter: 3
# [14:42] <fantasai> hober: Are you saying that's equivalent to 36pt?
# [14:42] <fantasai> SteveZ: No.
# [14:43] <fantasai> SteveZ: There's a rule for each script that converts 3 lins to a point size
# [14:43] <fantasai> SteveZ: In a latin font, it would take cap-height
# [14:43] <fantasai> SteveZ: Whatever fits there, that determines the font-size
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# [14:44] <fantasai> dbaron: You also have to account for line-gap, difference between cap-height and baseline, etc.
# [14:44] <glazou2> w
# [14:44] <fantasai> dauwhe: In Latin we know the alignment points, so based on that we can just calculate it.
# [14:44] <fantasai> dauwhe: For CJK we have a different calculation
# [14:44] <fantasai> astearns_: We have this calculation, that results in a font-size, given a value of 3
# [14:44] <fantasai> astearns_: and it will be consistent for a given font in a given paragraph
# [14:45] <fantasai> astearns_: why is that useful for determing the interpretation of <length>
# [14:45] <fantasai> dauwhe: If I say 30pt instead of 3 lines
# [14:45] <dbaron> dauwhe was just giving the formula just below the figure in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#f2
# [14:45] <fantasai> SteveZ: You do the same thing. You imply a top-alignment poitn and a bottom-alignment point, and adjust base don the same thing
# [14:45] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think that was what we were trying to solve
# [14:46] <fantasai> hober: We're trying to solve the problem of 'what does a length mean'?
# [14:46] <fantasai> fantasai: That seems like a really backwards way to do things.
# [14:47] <fantasai> dbaron: If it's not clear what this other thing should mean, but we want to allow authors to make fine-tuned adjustments
# [14:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Then maybe we allow <number> instead of <integer> and authors can tweak it until they're happy.
# [14:47] <chrisl> I'm asking on John Hudson and JF Porchez on twitter about initial letter with cap accent
# [14:47] <fantasai> astearns: Until we add additional alignment keywords, no, you only get one alignment, and we choose it per script
# [14:48] <dbaron> <number> greater than or equal to 1
# [14:48] <fantasai> dbaron: Because that could give you a negative size
# [14:48] * fantasai didn't understand that
# [14:49] <fantasai> hober: Use <number> instead of <integer> for height. When number is not an <integer>, precise alignment TBD.
# [14:49] <dbaron> Given 'line-height: 3', then 'drop-initial: 0.5' would give a negative size because of the N-1 in the formula in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#f2 being more negative than the positive part
# [14:49] <fantasai> SteveZ: If it's an integer, you have 2 alignment points.
# [14:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: If it's not an integer, then there's only one alignment point. The script will indicate what that alignment point is.
# [14:50] <fantasai> fantasai: And you can use vertical-align to tweak it :)
# [14:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: With Florian's other piece, given an alginment point and you have something that extends above, what do you do?
# [14:51] <fantasai> RESOLVED: initial-letter does not have longhands
# [14:51] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [14:51] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Order of values is size first, drop second (as decided in previous F2F)
# [14:51] <fantasai> RESOLVED: size is a <number>. Alignment point is determined by script.
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# [14:52] <dbaron> Previous F2F minutes were http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0108.html
# [14:52] <fantasai> fantasai: Drop if you don't have an integral size?
# [14:52] <fantasai> SteveZ: Round up
# [14:53] <chrisl> Is the order different in the draft because of a transcribing error or was it deliberate?
# [14:53] <fantasai> astearns_: sylvain and I have been working on a JS library for this
# [14:53] <fantasai> astearns_: will make public soon
# [14:53] <chrisl> dauwhe: it was deliberate due to mailing list discussion
# [14:54] <fantasai> dauwhe: What do we do wrt alignment?
# [14:54] <fantasai> ?: We aren't sure yet
# [14:54] <fantasai> florian: Might want it to be independent
# [14:54] <dbaron> OK, I've been looking for a Scandinavian newspaper that uses drop caps so we can find examples of drop-Å in the wild, and finally found one: Dagens Næringsliv
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# [14:54] <fantasai> Bert: Is the size the size of the box, or size of the letter?
# [14:55] <fantasai> s/size the/size of the border the/
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# [14:55] <fantasai> fantasai: Issue of where borders go, would go around the glyph bounding box
# [14:55] <fantasai> Bert: Does the initial-letter property now refer to size of the box? or size of the glyph?
# [14:56] <dbaron> http://www.face2face.se/uploads/blog/6593bda3d9d72bfef9cafacb5d21ad7ac2777949.png has a drop-Å
# [14:56] <fantasai> fantasai: I can see wanting both ways. E.g. T that rests on bottom baseline and top capheight, has a border around it which is excluded around
# [14:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Or wanting that box to be sitting on the baseline/capheight
# [14:56] <fantasai> fantasai: probably need a switch
# [14:57] <fantasai> discussion of drop-shadows, other effects
# [14:57] <fantasai> fantasai: Use margin box to control exclusion. Can always make it larger or smaller (negative)
# [14:58] <fantasai> plinss: Don't like magic of e.g. changing sizing behavior based on whether there's a border or not.
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# [14:59] <hober> In <4187383B-5D9F-4317-9AA1-36D4B04B19CF@apple.com> points 3 and 4 cover this, though the w3.org archive of it doesn't contain the images :(
# [14:59] <fantasai> plinss: Do we have an answer here?
# [14:59] <fantasai> fantasai: might make the switch part of how we do alignment
# [15:00] <fantasai> fantasai: If the content box is drawn around the glyph bounds, then you get equivalent behavior to what we have when everything is zero. You can then tweak things from there.
# [15:01] <fantasai> fantasai: The exclusion area would be the marign box
# [15:01] <fantasai> fantasai: The question here is whether the alignment area matches that box or matches the character.
# [15:02] <fantasai> Bert asks for illuminated letters
# [15:02] <fantasai> fantasai: That's why we allow initial-letter to be applied to inlines. You can apply it to an image.
# [15:03] * TabAtkins SimonSapin: I update Page's bikeshed to be more idiomatic and clean.
# [15:03] <fantasai> dauwhe: The height from initial-letter applies to the image.
# [15:03] <fantasai> fantasai: You use the content box instead of the font metrics.
# [15:03] <hober> fantasai and I were emoting about how ruby behaves with initial-letter. Consider <p><ruby style="initial-letter:3"><rb>私<rt>わたし</ruby>は...</p>
# [15:03] * sgalineau does initial-letter apply to ::first-letter
# [15:03] * fantasai yes
# [15:03] * fantasai also to the first inline of a containing block
# [15:04] * fantasai main use case is ::first-letter, but could use <span> for first-words
# [15:04] <fantasai> hober summarizes IRC discussion wrt ruby
# [15:05] * SimonSapin TabAtkins, thanks
# [15:05] <fantasai> dbaron: Seems like a lot of work for a weird case
# [15:06] * sgalineau I sense a weird crazy inline use case MQ
# [15:06] <fantasai> fantasai: Could make it optional. You *may* apply to ruby, and if you do so, you do it this way.
# [15:06] <fantasai> dbaron: Do you increase the annotation size?
# [15:06] <fantasai> fantasai assumes so
# [15:07] <fantasai> SteveZ: jukugo ruby, and breaking...
# [15:07] <fantasai> hober: initial-letter applies to the entire inline, not the whole fragment
# [15:07] * sgalineau is not doing any of this in JS. FYI.
# [15:08] * sgalineau draws the line
# [15:09] <fantasai> dbaron: That's the easy case. What if you have ::first-letter and the first child of the block happens to be ruby
# [15:09] * sgalineau hopes initial-letter does not animate
# [15:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: I think you say it doesn't apply.
# [15:09] <fantasai> dbaron: I'd be happy with that
# [15:09] <fantasai> [discussion of what ought to happen if osmething does happen]
# [15:10] <fantasai> SteveZ: The annotation gets adjusted accordingly.
# [15:10] <fantasai> SteveZ: along with the first letter of the base
# [15:11] <fantasai> plinss: I think we're in a weird corner and we should take a break, and you can discuss over a break.
# [15:11] * sgalineau suspects this whole Apple thing today is about Ruby in dropcaps anyway
# [15:13] * sgalineau needs more Nespresso. brb
# [15:14] * fantasai could use some of that, since having trouble keeping up with the minutes
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# [15:31] <fantasai> discussiong dbaron's negative for < 1 problem. Seems like just flooring the number of affected lines at 1 would work fine, you can still use 0.5 as a size
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# [15:44] <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
# [15:44] <dauwhe> topic: animations
# [15:45] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0132.html
# [15:45] <dauwhe> sgalineau: following up on telecon discussion
# [15:45] <dauwhe> ... basic story: resolve how properties that depend on value of other property get resolved
# [15:46] <dauwhe> ... height in ems depends on font size
# [15:46] <dauwhe> ... email from David with possible scenarios
# [15:46] <dauwhe> ... A. mulitple animations depending on each other
# [15:46] <dauwhe> ... at some point it gets really complex
# [15:46] <dauwhe> ... did some basic testing
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... you can depend on [A] across browsers
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... after that, no interop
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... [B] doesn't work
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... two keyframe rules with same selector last one wins
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... IE does [D] and [E], but not super smooth
# [15:47] <dauwhe> ... A is all we have to day
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... same keyframe rules should be like others in the system
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... I'm not finding evidence that people are bothered by others not working
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... so for level one resolve on simple subset
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... A is min. we have today
# [15:48] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... B should work once people apply cascading across keyframe rules
# [15:48] <dauwhe> ... we can keep it simple
# [15:49] <dauwhe> ... some people do split animations across 2 or more keyframe rules
# [15:49] <dauwhe> ... but not common
# [15:49] <dauwhe> astearns: one issue is David just walked into room
# [15:50] <dauwhe> shans: looking at david's post, C seems wrong
# [15:50] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: that's a bad behaviour
# [15:50] <dauwhe> shans: bad to apply property changes in the future
# [15:50] <dauwhe> shans_: seems strange to apply property values from the future in the present
# [15:50] <dauwhe> sgalineau: does it refer to 50%?
# [15:51] * dbaron returns to the meeting room
# [15:51] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the keyframe updates the values that other keyframes will set
# [15:51] <dauwhe> ... if there was a 50% text size will resolve against ???
# [15:51] <dauwhe> sgalineau: only A works today across browsers
# [15:51] <dauwhe> ... hard to find people running into issues due to b, c, d not working
# [15:52] <dauwhe> ... so keep simple in level one, just use A
# [15:52] <dauwhe> ... so let's not go there today
# [15:52] <TabAtkins> If there was a 50% keyframe that set font-size, the "1em" in text-indent would resolve against that; since there isn't, it resolves against the base value.
# [15:52] <dauwhe> dbaron: I think gecko does B since you cascade across keyframe rules
# [15:52] <dauwhe> ... can't tell diff. between b and c in other browsers
# [15:52] <dauwhe> sgalineau: beyond that we punt to future levels
# [15:53] <dauwhe> shans: did you test chrome?
# [15:53] <dauwhe> sgalineau: I did, it did A, if it did other stuff it was not pretty
# [15:53] <dauwhe> ... tests were on font size
# [15:53] <dauwhe> shans: I think we intended to implement D
# [15:53] <dauwhe> sgalineau: but it's so not smooth you couldn
# [15:53] <dauwhe> ... use it.
# [15:54] <dauwhe> sgalineau: if anim. property depends on other, resolve that, but don't go further. don't resolve across animations.
# [15:54] <dauwhe> dbaron: can we make sylvain louder?
# [15:54] <dauwhe> astearns: no
# [15:55] <dauwhe> sgalineau: questions?
# [15:55] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I think D is great idea
# [15:55] <dauwhe> sgalineau: you have animations depend on each other
# [15:55] <dauwhe> dbaron: in our code there's implicit dependence, would need to store data explicity to do D
# [15:55] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: how do you do?
# [15:56] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [15:56] <dauwhe> dbaron: we compute properties lazilly in groups
# [15:56] <dauwhe> ... cross-strut dependencies are implicit
# [15:56] <astearns_> s/strut/struct/
# [15:56] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I'm not sure why this is
# [15:57] <dauwhe> dbaron: we need to build a list of what properties depend o
# [15:57] <dauwhe> ... make sure there are no cycles
# [15:57] <dauwhe> sgalineau: I think D is interesting because people split anim. into multiple keyframe rules
# [15:57] <dauwhe> ... styling in one, motion in another
# [15:57] <dauwhe> ... it already has cross-dependencies
# [15:58] <dauwhe> ... finding problems around this is hard
# [15:58] <dauwhe> ... if there are implementation concerns, it's really not a problem today
# [15:58] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: since people have hacked around problem
# [15:58] <dauwhe> dbaron: this tends to show up in properties people don't animate much
# [15:58] <dauwhe> clilley: cause or effect?
# [15:59] <dauwhe> dbaron: lea ran into problem with animating border-width
# [15:59] <dauwhe> sgalineau: I have'nt really seen more bugs than Lea's.
# [15:59] <dauwhe> dbaron: it's not massively hard, just have to build and maintain list of dependencies
# [15:59] <dauwhe> shans: would be hard to go back to A
# [16:00] <dauwhe> ... becaue of how property resolution gets done
# [16:00] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we'd have to mantain unanimated property separately
# [16:00] <dauwhe> sgalineau: i hear were going towards D
# [16:00] <dauwhe> ... are we doing E too?
# [16:00] <dauwhe> dbaron: E would be harder for us
# [16:00] <dauwhe> shans_: us too.
# [16:00] <dauwhe> ... we don't order animations
# [16:01] <dauwhe> plinss: is there an order that makes more sense for authors?
# [16:01] <dauwhe> dbaron: G beta, but it's really hard--do what I meant!
# [16:01] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: G beta is not realistic
# [16:01] <dauwhe> ... D is a reasonable compromise
# [16:01] <dauwhe> sgalineau: D and E?
# [16:01] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: E is not the same thing. It requires remembering animation orders
# [16:02] <dauwhe> ... rather just normal property orders
# [16:02] <dauwhe> dbaron: this message might be confusing
# [16:02] <dauwhe> ... a list from A to G but also a list of changes between items
# [16:03] <dauwhe> ... in D you're considering each animation separately
# [16:03] <dauwhe> ... in E you're considering all of them under it in the cascade
# [16:03] <dauwhe> astearns_: does that change the results you're reporting about E?
# [16:03] <dauwhe> sgalineau: Yes, I don't think I was testing E properly
# [16:03] <dauwhe> CLilley: what was that?
# [16:04] <dauwhe> sgalineau: alan was asking if my misunderstanding of D vs E affected my results
# [16:04] <dauwhe> ... I think so
# [16:04] <dauwhe> ... do we have agreement that D is what we want?
# [16:04] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: Now we think we do F in chrome
# [16:04] <dauwhe> shans_: but we might change our mind
# [16:04] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we don't do E, I'm sure of that
# [16:05] <dauwhe> ... E requires caring about ordering
# [16:05] <dauwhe> ... F applys everything together in the appropriate way
# [16:05] <dauwhe> shans_: resolve style for element, then apply
# [16:05] <dauwhe> dbaron: what's weird about e and higher is that you don't know...
# [16:05] <dauwhe> ... E, F, and G all have alpha and beta options
# [16:06] <dauwhe> shans_: can we come back after we test?
# [16:06] <dauwhe> dbaron: part of what I dislike about them is that both alpha and beta are bad in confusing ways
# [16:06] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [16:06] <dauwhe> ... the diff. between alpha and beta, with alpha you figure out the animation first, then run it
# [16:07] <dauwhe> ... with F alpha if you apply a 2nd animation to something that's already running, you need to include a future point of the animation
# [16:07] <dauwhe> ... if repeating it's not clear what to do
# [16:07] <dauwhe> ... beta is doing it dynamically
# [16:07] <dauwhe> ... you might have a repeating value with 2 values oscillating
# [16:08] <dauwhe> ... and what you're getting might change as that value changes
# [16:08] <dauwhe> krit: In SVG, you have to use dynamic...
# [16:08] <dauwhe> dbaron: does the same thing happen in SVG if you're animating font size
# [16:08] * sgalineau lost sound
# [16:08] <dauwhe> ... so SVG animations are doing beta
# [16:09] * sgalineau and back...
# [16:09] <dauwhe> dbaron: I remember agreeing that something else was static, but not base values
# [16:09] <dauwhe> krit: keeping base value is static is easier
# [16:10] <dauwhe> ... this was one of the huge issues with performance
# [16:10] <dauwhe> dbaron: you're recomputing the whole thing every tick
# [16:10] <dauwhe> krit: yep
# [16:10] <dauwhe> plinss: that seems more rational from author perspective
# [16:10] <dauwhe> ... if author animation doesn't perform, they will change it
# [16:11] <dauwhe> sgalineau: what's the value if no performance
# [16:11] <dauwhe> krit: okay with beta later, but not as default
# [16:11] <dauwhe> dbaron: only with EFG are you computing other animations with base value of other animations
# [16:11] <dauwhe> shans_: what's expected value?
# [16:12] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we're doing F alpha
# [16:12] <dauwhe> ... we do have them interact, but only based on the static value of the other animation
# [16:12] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: never mind
# [16:12] <dbaron> TabAtkins: I think it's D.
# [16:13] <dauwhe> plinss: authors want G beta
# [16:13] <dauwhe> ... if that
# [16:13] <dauwhe> ... are we blocking the future
# [16:13] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:13] <dauwhe> sgalineau: if we agree on D, we can do more in future
# [16:13] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [16:14] <dauwhe> ... how does doing D now and E/f/g later break all animations?
# [16:14] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: if you change from D to G beta you'll change the example
# [16:14] <dauwhe> sgalineau: shit.
# [16:14] * sgalineau ^ technical term
# [16:14] <dauwhe> plinss: I'm loathe to prevent some hypothetical future version from doing this right
# [16:14] <dauwhe> ... we always find a way to do it faster in future
# [16:15] <dauwhe> krit: and SVG has been doing it for years
# [16:15] <dauwhe> plinss: we've had no complaints about performance and interop
# [16:15] <dauwhe> ... should we leave this undefined for now?
# [16:15] <dauwhe> clilley: that's worse than anything
# [16:15] <dauwhe> ... diff. implemenations will do different things
# [16:15] <dauwhe> ... one will do something different, that will become the new standard
# [16:16] <dauwhe> shans_: hard to tell what we're doing
# [16:16] <dauwhe> plinss: define this to break for now, explicity not work. Dependent animation just won't work
# [16:16] <dauwhe> dbaron: No. It's a breaking change.
# [16:16] * sgalineau if an animation depends on another we give them a ruby dropcap
# [16:17] <dauwhe> dbaron: alpha and beta are only opptions for EFG, we're implementing B
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> hober:
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%40keyframes%20a%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20from%2C%20to%20%7B%20font-size%3A%2020px%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%2050%25%20%7B%20font-size%3A%2060px%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%40keyframes%20b%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20from%2C%20to
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> %20%7B%20width%3A%201em%3B%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%2050%25%20%7B%20width%3A%205em%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%7D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20div%20%7B%20font-size%3A%2010px%3B%20animation%3A%20b%20linear%201s%20infinite%20%2C%20a%20linear%201s%20infinite%3B%20background%3A%20green%3B%20%7D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3Efoo%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3D%22displ
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> ay%3A%20block%3B%20width%3A%2010px%3B%20height%3A%205px%3B%20background%3A%20red%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20block%3B%20width%3A%2050px%3B%20height%3A%205px%3B%20background%3A%20red%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> hober: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3160
# [16:18] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [16:18] <TabAtkins> hober: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3161
# [16:18] <dauwhe> various: murmuring
# [16:19] <dauwhe> sgalineau: it's the same in chrome and FF
# [16:19] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we're doing D and not anything higher than D
# [16:19] <dauwhe> ... they are interacting if you're going from 10 to 300 on width in blink and safari
# [16:20] * astearns_ has to close several test windows: getting dizzy
# [16:20] <dauwhe> ... if there's not interacting, then it goes from 10 to 50
# [16:20] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:20] <dauwhe> ... if they are, then goes from 20 to 300
# [16:20] <dauwhe> sgalineau: yes
# [16:21] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [16:21] <dauwhe> ... looks fine in FF
# [16:22] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: in some cases dbaron implicitly does D
# [16:22] <dauwhe> s/dbaron/Firefox/
# [16:22] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: if you run 3161 in firefox they do interact
# [16:22] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
# [16:22] <dauwhe> dbaron: No, two properties in the same keyframe rule is the A vs B distinction
# [16:23] <dauwhe> various: everyone is testing browsers right now
# [16:23] <dauwhe> sgalineau: do we want to send this back to list?
# [16:23] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: No. We'll figure this out
# [16:23] <dauwhe> plinss: we're on a mission
# [16:24] <dauwhe> various: blah blah Apple blah blah Apple blah blah
# [16:24] * astearns_ sylvain: we have the entire working group writing tests! we shouldn't discourage it!
# [16:24] * dauwhe PLH enters the room, and the door squeaks ominously
# [16:25] * dauwhe he gets a drink of water and goes to sit down
# [16:25] * dauwhe Krit is talking to Andre, with his arm on top of his head...
# [16:25] * astearns_ quick, someone clear the chat log before plh logs in
# [16:25] * hober it is dark, and you are likely to be eaten by a grue
# [16:25] * dauwhe the co-chairs share a joke before returning their gaze to the screen...
# [16:25] * hober get lamp
# [16:26] * astearns_ shine lamp on testcase
# [16:26] * glazou2 chairs were discussing the minute taker's digressions :-)
# [16:26] <dbaron> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2014/
# [16:26] <dauwhe> sgalineau: we're back to A as the one you depend on
# [16:26] <dauwhe> dbaron: they are a set of different behavour choices
# [16:26] <dauwhe> ... both chrome and FF are doing B
# [16:27] <dauwhe> ... you have to run the sequence
# [16:27] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we think we're in B only because of a bug, we should be in D
# [16:27] <dauwhe> dbaron: this is computing base values
# [16:27] * chrisl you are in a maze of twisty testcases, all subtly different
# [16:28] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we should be in F
# [16:28] * sgalineau can we go back to ruby dropcaps? that was easy
# [16:28] <dauwhe> shans_: what's going on is we're precomputing what the keyframes
# [16:28] <dauwhe> dbaron: everyone precomputes what they are
# [16:28] <dauwhe> ... not precomputing would be beta option for efg
# [16:29] <dauwhe> shans_: our engine is capable of not precomputing, but we do to match previous behaviour
# [16:29] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we recently rewrote all this code
# [16:29] <dauwhe> ... let's change to not precomputing, so then we'd be in F beta
# [16:30] <dauwhe> krit: if you have transform with lots of values would fall out of compositing mode all the time
# [16:30] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: possibly
# [16:30] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [16:30] <dauwhe> dbaron: do you know what IE does?
# [16:30] <dauwhe> ???: we believe we do D
# [16:30] * sgalineau got E wrong but believes IE did D
# [16:30] <dauwhe> dbaron: will margin left work?
# [16:30] <TabAtkins> s/???/gregwhitworth
# [16:30] <TabAtkins> s/???/gregwhitworth/
# [16:31] <dauwhe> gregwhitworth: switching to margin since there's a bug on test indent
# [16:31] <dauwhe> dbaron: expected to go from 0 to 10 or 30 then back to 0
# [16:31] <dauwhe> hober: we're doing c or lower
# [16:31] <dauwhe> gregwhitworth: we're d or higher
# [16:32] <dauwhe> hober: what do expect for EF?
# [16:32] <dauwhe> dbaron: don't load yet.
# [16:32] <dauwhe> CLilley: test-based spec editing!
# [16:33] <dauwhe> various: more testing in progress
# [16:33] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [16:34] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [16:34] <dauwhe> dbaron: G is a weird case
# [16:34] <dauwhe> ... gecko does B + G
# [16:34] <dauwhe> ... it does consider ancestors
# [16:34] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: our webanim code does F beta
# [16:34] <dauwhe> ... we bug-fixed our CSS code to get B
# [16:35] <dauwhe> ... if we reomove that we'll get F beta.
# [16:35] <dauwhe> s/reomove/remove/
# [16:35] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: don't use ems in your transform functions
# [16:35] <dauwhe> krit: do beta and you won't have that problem
# [16:35] <dauwhe> ... you added a conformance regression?
# [16:36] <dauwhe> shans_: we added a performance enhancement
# [16:36] <dauwhe> shans_: long-term we want to support it
# [16:36] * Joins: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [16:36] <dauwhe> krit: it makes sense for uniting CSS animation with SVG animation
# [16:37] <dauwhe> dbaron: we do use values from ancestors
# [16:37] <shans_> s/performance/correctness/
# [16:37] <shans_> s/conformance/performance/
# [16:37] * dauwhe thanks shans_
# [16:37] <shans_> (I think)
# [16:38] <dauwhe> andrey: prefix removed?
# [16:38] * sgalineau still needs -webkit in 37
# [16:38] <dauwhe> hober: our result for FG is 0 to 10 and back to 0
# [16:38] <dauwhe> dbaron: gecko is going to 20 or 25 which is inexplicable
# [16:38] * sgalineau if we keep it undefined, inexplicable conforms!
# [16:39] <dauwhe> gregwhitworth: IE goes to 25
# [16:39] * dauwhe animation should go to eleven
# [16:42] <dauwhe> krit: IE is doing F?
# [16:42] <dauwhe> dbaron: G
# [16:42] <dauwhe> krit: what about FF?
# [16:42] <dauwhe> dbaron: B
# [16:42] <dauwhe> krit: what do you intend?
# [16:42] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: diff between F and G if they interact it's G
# [16:42] <dauwhe> ... so we're doing that
# [16:42] <dauwhe> dbaron: we're doing B + G
# [16:42] <dauwhe> shans_: we're animating before computing
# [16:44] <dauwhe> hober: retrying FG, we seem to go to 20-25
# [16:44] <dauwhe> dbaron: just like FF
# [16:44] <dauwhe> s/FF/Firefox/
# [16:45] <dauwhe> dbaron: this makes animations more different from transistions
# [16:45] <dauwhe> ... you just animate from old computed value to new computed value
# [16:45] <dauwhe> ... we implemented animation as an extension to transition
# [16:45] <dauwhe> ... if we do this other way, it's more like you're recomputing the value rather than figuring out an animation
# [16:46] <dauwhe> plinss: are we closer to decision
# [16:46] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:47] <dauwhe> dbaron: which other stuff does thiis depend on?
# [16:47] * Joins: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [16:47] <dauwhe> ... do you figure all this out at the start, or as the animation runs.
# [16:47] <dauwhe> shans_: does a keyframe rule specify a set of values that change over time
# [16:47] <dauwhe> ... or a ???
# [16:48] <dauwhe> plinss: are we any closer to answer
# [16:48] <dauwhe> shans_: IE does G
# [16:48] * sgalineau wait, tab as a bow tie? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
# [16:48] <dauwhe> ... chrome core engine does G
# [16:48] * TabAtkins It's Tie Tuesday!
# [16:49] <dauwhe> florian: what if BC test is only wrong test? That's what presto does, and it overshoots a bit
# [16:49] * sgalineau let's do what presto does. I want to specify 'overshoots a bit'
# [16:50] <dauwhe> dbaron: you're probably using a future keyframe
# [16:50] * astearns_ opera uses the keyframes first!
# [16:50] * Joins: tommyjtl_ (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [16:50] * sgalineau 'my keyframes are from the future'
# [16:50] <dauwhe> florian: it also overshoots DE
# [16:51] <dauwhe> gregwhitworth: BC is not interoperable across browsers
# [16:51] <dauwhe> ... IE and chrome keep font at initial size, Firefox resizes
# [16:51] <dauwhe> dbaron: some tests depend on cascading keyframes
# [16:51] <dauwhe> hober: on bc we go from 0 to 10
# [16:52] <dauwhe> dbaron: not meaningful if you don't cascade keyframes
# [16:52] <dauwhe> dbaron: what does webkit do on CD?
# [16:53] <dauwhe> hober: from 0 to 10 and back
# [16:53] * sgalineau that Apple event is about removing -webkit from animations. then everyone goes home.
# [16:53] <dauwhe> dbaron: webkit does b or c
# [16:53] <dauwhe> dbaron: we're not adding new info from testing. Let's figure out what we want
# [16:53] <dauwhe> florian: we've proved going to G is doable
# [16:53] <dauwhe> dbaron: is this g beta?
# [16:53] <dauwhe> hober: or G canary?
# [16:53] <dauwhe> Rossen_: for us it's g beta
# [16:54] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [16:54] * dauwhe sgalineau: if steve jobs were alive, he'd remove -webkit- .
# [16:54] <hober> s/hober: or G canary?//
# [16:55] <dauwhe> dbaron: does it bounce to 30 pixels each time? You're doing EFG/alpha
# [16:56] <dauwhe> ... if it bounces bigger each bounce, then it's beta
# [16:56] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:56] <dauwhe> plinss: IE is G Beta
# [16:56] <dauwhe> Bert: does this defeat the purpose?
# [16:57] <dauwhe> dbaron: presto is just doing the destination value
# [16:57] <dauwhe> Bert: if everything is dynamic you can't precompute
# [16:57] <dauwhe> ... then you can't optimize
# [16:57] <dauwhe> ... if computer isn't fast enough, you may want to drop frames
# [16:57] <dauwhe> Rossen_: or just use a sytylesheet that doesn't do this
# [16:57] <dauwhe> shans_: this isn't the slow part
# [16:58] <dauwhe> Bert: say you're scaling an image, you might want to precompute all images
# [16:58] <dauwhe> ... even the smallest computer can keep up
# [16:58] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: You probably dont' ever want to do that; it would eat up a ton of memory storing the temp images.
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# [16:59] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: our core implementation goes G beta
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# [17:00] <dauwhe> s/goes/does/
# [17:00] <sgalineau> CSS syntax is overrated
# [17:00] <dauwhe> plinss: I hear us gravitating towards G beta
# [17:00] <dauwhe> ... consistent with SVG, we have implementation proof
# [17:00] <dauwhe> ... any objections?
# [17:00] <dauwhe> ... resolved.
# [17:00] <dauwhe> Resolved: Use G Beta.
# [17:00] * astearns_ proposes H gamma
# [17:01] * sgalineau should have gone back to bed for an hour
# [17:01] * dauwhe sgalineau you should have felt the excitement in the room as people hit refresh on the tests dbaron wrote
# [17:01] <dauwhe> topic: values that don't interpolate
# [17:02] <dauwhe> sgalineau: there was confusion, we wanted to make them switch at 50% progress point
# [17:02] <dauwhe> ... you'd switch from one to the other
# [17:02] <dauwhe> ... i thought that would be true for transitions and animations
# [17:02] <dauwhe> ... dbaron said no
# [17:02] <dauwhe> ... we still want to animate non-inter values at 50%, and only for animations, not transitions
# [17:03] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we don't want diff. behaviour for animations and transitions
# [17:03] <dauwhe> ... ok to have initial value of transition to only those that can be smartly interpolated
# [17:03] <dauwhe> dbaron: it can be a diff. in when you start css transitions
# [17:04] <dauwhe> ... the other is that i'm still worried about shorthands in transition property value
# [17:04] <dauwhe> ... transistion: font
# [17:04] <dauwhe> ... today that means you're transistioning font size and weight and nothing else
# [17:04] <dauwhe> ... maybe this isn't too important
# [17:04] <dauwhe> ... bigger deal for border
# [17:05] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: border will work better
# [17:05] <dauwhe> dbaron: I'm worried about this change for compat
# [17:05] <dauwhe> ... nobody has edited or implemented
# [17:05] <dauwhe> sgalineau: I was waiting
# [17:05] <dauwhe> krit: is there a problem if difference between CSS and SVG
# [17:05] <dauwhe> shans_: do you copy into animation before sending it down? I don't think it's an issue.
# [17:05] <dauwhe> ... do what seems most useful
# [17:06] <dauwhe> dbaron: the original transition spec had funny rule for visibility
# [17:06] <dauwhe> ... there are similar things with display or other things
# [17:06] <dauwhe> ... I can see it being useful but worried about compat risk
# [17:06] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: you're not worried about shorthand compat risk?
# [17:06] <dauwhe> dbaron: I'm worried about it all
# [17:06] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we can fix initial value problem
# [17:07] <dauwhe> ... or changing all to mean not all of them
# [17:07] <dauwhe> krit: if you want to switch key values between key frames is that possible
# [17:08] <dauwhe> dbaron: possible with animations?
# [17:08] * sgalineau today 'all' really means all properties for those values that interpolate so we could also just keep it that way
# [17:08] <dauwhe> ... is this animations only or animations and transitions?
# [17:09] <gregwhitworth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0079.html
# [17:09] <dauwhe> dbaron: this is more like the previous issue
# [17:10] <dauwhe> ... I didn't think that's the issue we are discussing
# [17:10] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we were discussing the general issue because it hasn't shown up in spec
# [17:10] <dauwhe> dbaron: this is a different issue
# [17:11] <sgalineau> the issue greg linked to is next
# [17:11] <dauwhe> krit: so webkit switches immediately
# [17:11] <dauwhe> ... so no transition applied
# [17:12] <dauwhe> sgalineau: there's another thing: when you do switch, whether duration gets involved
# [17:12] <dauwhe> krit: better not to define ideal, but to be interoperable
# [17:12] <dauwhe> ... mostly
# [17:12] <dauwhe> dbaron: I think the plan is that duration would be involved
# [17:13] <dauwhe> ... it would switch when timing function crossed 50%
# [17:13] <dauwhe> krit: this is not what SVG animations do
# [17:13] <dauwhe> krit: switches at 50% of time rather than 50% of timing function
# [17:14] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we did discuss making non-interpolatable work only if timing function was steps
# [17:14] <dauwhe> ... in most animations they would not animate
# [17:14] <dauwhe> dbaron: and there would mostly be only one step
# [17:14] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: there will be a step mid function
# [17:14] <dbaron> s/function/function in level 2/
# [17:15] <dauwhe> CLilley: people didn't want it, something had to be defined to happen
# [17:15] <dbaron> s/would mostly/would have to/
# [17:15] <dauwhe> krit: what do we gain from that? We can still do that with animation triggered by transition
# [17:15] <dauwhe> dbaron: the gain is with display
# [17:15] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: or border style
# [17:15] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: display's a big one
# [17:16] <dauwhe> krit: it wasn't really used in SVG a lot, don't expect it to be used in CSS much
# [17:16] <dauwhe> dbaron: I've seen people want it for display
# [17:16] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: people want to do visibility, we've special-cased it
# [17:16] <dauwhe> dbaron: don't have strong opinion
# [17:16] <dauwhe> ... except when whoever iplements first we might have to change
# [17:17] <dauwhe> dbaron: I guess I'm ok chaning the resolution to be for transitions
# [17:17] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: might backing down to just steps
# [17:17] <dauwhe> dbaron: or to just transitions
# [17:17] <dauwhe> sgalineau: we have resolution for css transitions
# [17:18] <dauwhe> Resolution: animations and transitions both really do have the behaviour that non-interperable properties switch at 50% of the timing function
# [17:18] <dbaron> s/Resolution/RESOLUTION/
# [17:18] <dbaron> s/interperable/interpolable/
# [17:19] <sgalineau> shminterpolable
# [17:20] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0079.html
# [17:20] <glazou2> interschmolable even
# [17:20] <dauwhe> sgalineau: in initial animation spec requires snapshotting
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# [17:20] <dauwhe> ... changes to your keyframe rules have no effect, doesn't care what's going on
# [17:21] <dauwhe> ... an issue raised is that's not something we want to do
# [17:21] <dauwhe> ... we would allow animation property to change dynamically
# [17:21] <dauwhe> ... never concluded on what that means and how it works
# [17:21] <sgalineau> in particular http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0352.html
# [17:21] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the start time stays constant but everything else is adjustable
# [17:22] <dauwhe> ... we don't want to double-fire start events
# [17:22] <dauwhe> ... or is that just a consistancy issue
# [17:22] <dauwhe> s/consistancy/consistency/
# [17:22] * chrisl doublepluss unstart
# [17:22] <dauwhe> Bert: you can change the past?
# [17:22] <dauwhe> dbaron: what is the particular issue?
# [17:23] <dauwhe> sgalineau: the spec requires snapshotting
# [17:23] <dauwhe> ... we don't want that
# [17:23] <dauwhe> dbaron: I though we had a resolution on what replaced it
# [17:23] <dauwhe> sgalineau: it's possible
# [17:23] <chrisl> don't get excited Bert, you can only change the past in animation land. Not in real life
# [17:23] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we appear to snapshot now
# [17:24] <dauwhe> dbaron: let me look at the minutes
# [17:25] <dauwhe> ... that one does say details TBD
# [17:25] <dauwhe> sgalineau: the issue is the TBD
# [17:25] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0261.html
# [17:25] <dauwhe> sgalineau: you mention that gecko the model accepts changes other than animation delay
# [17:26] <dauwhe> dbaron: the model is taht we compute a start time and then let you change everything else
# [17:26] <dauwhe> ... we may honor dynamic change to animation delay
# [17:26] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: before delay, it's the moment the animation starts applying, which is not controllable
# [17:26] <dauwhe> dbaron: yes
# [17:27] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: when I hover over test case, no longer speeds up in chrome
# [17:27] <dauwhe> dbaron: still speeds up in safari?
# [17:27] <dauwhe> hober: yes
# [17:27] <dauwhe> dbaron: there is now a list of resolutions to editors in spec
# [17:27] <dauwhe> sgalineau: most of them are in
# [17:28] <dauwhe> dbaron: what are questions about what we should have
# [17:28] <hober> Rossen_: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3163
# [17:28] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: what is adjustable
# [17:28] <dauwhe> ... do you fire 2nd start event
# [17:28] <dauwhe> ... what about at end?
# [17:28] <dauwhe> sgalineau: you can change keyframes that haven't run
# [17:28] <dauwhe> dbaron: I think the hard part is events stuff
# [17:29] <dauwhe> ... compute things as if animation started when it started, and always have those values
# [17:29] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I agree, events is the hard part
# [17:29] <dauwhe> dbaron: I expect Brian Birtles would have strong opinions about when events shoulld fire
# [17:30] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: should we declare everythings touchable, and ask brian about event firing
# [17:30] <dauwhe> dbaron: there may be some value in not refiring start and end
# [17:30] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: what if you're past the end. Do you fire the end?
# [17:31] <dauwhe> ... if you adjust delay to large negative value, do you fire the end event even though it didn't end, but changed from running to not running?
# [17:31] <dauwhe> dbaron: Brian recently rewrote this code 'cause he thought it was wrong
# [17:31] <dauwhe> Bert: even without dynamic, what if huge negative delay?
# [17:31] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: that's defined
# [17:32] <dauwhe> Bert: Does it have start?
# [17:32] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: Yes. It started before you started...
# [17:33] <sgalineau> so if you change animation-delay after the animation started running, making the delay larger has no effect. but if we make the delay negative, can we fast-forward or is it also ignored?
# [17:33] <dauwhe> CLilley: if you go into video after an hour, and you missed lots of events...
# [17:33] <dauwhe> dbaron: there are lots of fun questions. Duration zero and iteration...
# [17:33] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we decided not to fire an infinite number of animation events
# [17:34] <dauwhe> dbaron: I'd say you only start once and only end once
# [17:34] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: by iteration boundary, just fire an event whenever you pass through
# [17:34] <dauwhe> ... you usually don't care which iteration
# [17:35] <dauwhe> ... so you're not worried about duplication, missing ones, etc.
# [17:35] <dbaron> dbaron: And we shouldn't try to file a pile of iteration events or skip iteration events because of duration/etc. changes
# [17:35] <dauwhe> sgalineau: didn't resolve animation delay issue, if you make it bigger no effect,
# [17:35] <dauwhe> ... or do you fast-forward
# [17:36] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: delay should get adjusted
# [17:36] <dauwhe> ... the delay is just a component of it's progress, no reason to special case
# [17:36] <dauwhe> s/it's/its/
# [17:36] <dauwhe> dbaron: should someone write up for www-style?
# [17:36] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I can do it.
# [17:37] <dauwhe> ACTION: TabAtkins to write up proposal for www-style
# [17:37] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:37] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [17:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Write up proposal for www-style [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2014-09-16].
# [17:37] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/0056.html
# [17:38] <dauwhe> sgalineau: let's talk about Brian's email
# [17:38] <dauwhe> ... he had three options
# [17:38] <dauwhe> ... what happens visibly?
# [17:38] <dauwhe> ... and in terms of events
# [17:39] <dauwhe> dbaron: I think tab and I had the same preference on this
# [17:39] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: A
# [17:39] <dauwhe> ... B has its arguments. A is better on limit behaviour
# [17:39] <dauwhe> ... I don't know what we implement
# [17:39] <dauwhe> sgalineau: regardless of ???
# [17:40] <dauwhe> dbaron: if you iteration count infinite and duration zero, you should act as if iteration count zero
# [17:40] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: or in any finite value
# [17:40] <dauwhe> dbaron: that doesn't involve any iteration events
# [17:40] <dauwhe> sgalineau: so it's like a zero-second animation with finite iteration count
# [17:40] <dauwhe> RESOLVED: we do A
# [17:41] <dbaron> TabAtkins: one disadvantage is showing rounding behavior
# [17:42] <sgalineau> RESOLVED: when animation-duration:0s, start/end events fire with 0 elapsedTime
# [17:42] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0393.html
# [17:43] <dauwhe> sgalineau: interaction of negative delay, browsers do right thing
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# [17:43] <dauwhe> ... another question is what happens to events
# [17:43] <dauwhe> ... can't remember what Brian proposed
# [17:44] <dauwhe> ... if you have a delay that is the negative of your duration, that one should not fire events
# [17:45] <dauwhe> ... otherwise I think if your negative animation delay is larger than one iteration, you just swallow the iteration (?)
# [17:46] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: both resolutions sound reasonable
# [17:46] * TabAtkins Yeah, that's right, dauwhe.
# [17:46] <dauwhe> sgalineau: #1, no start and end events are fired,
# [17:47] <dauwhe> ... if you have more than one iteration, and delay is larger than iteration, then don't fire any events
# [17:47] <dauwhe> sgalineau: in +5 -5 case, he says events should not fire
# [17:48] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: he's just looking for consistency
# [17:48] <dauwhe> ... but if you don't fire events for things that start and end in the past, then you not fire in that case
# [17:48] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/thread.html#msg55
# [17:49] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: which would be consistent with how we handle changing a delay in the middle of an animation
# [17:49] <dauwhe> sgalineau: start and end will fire, but no iteration events fire, and no iterations occurs
# [17:49] * plh has to go again
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# [17:49] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: iteration events fire whenever you play through an iteration boundary
# [17:50] <dauwhe> ... but start and end always fire
# [17:50] <dauwhe> sgalineau: that makes sense
# [17:50] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: that's consistent with the infinite case, too
# [17:50] * astearns_ now we can go back to emoting plh's movements
# [17:51] <dauwhe> Bert: in example B, the values are simplified
# [17:51] <sgalineau> RESOLVED: iteration events only fire for iterations that are actually run e.g. those not 'absorbed' by a negative delay
# [17:51] <dauwhe> ... just like 360 degrees simplify to 0
# [17:51] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: what email are looking at?
# [17:51] <dauwhe> Bert: 393
# [17:51] <dauwhe> dbaron: must be august
# [17:51] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: it's not really simplifying, it's in the past so we're not firing events
# [17:51] <dauwhe> Bert: the effect is the same
# [17:52] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: your explanation doesn't extend to other situations
# [17:52] <dauwhe> Bert: how can I explain this to the user?
# [17:52] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the animation never experienced the first iteration
# [17:53] <dauwhe> sgalineau: if you animation is applied in post state, does start event fire when paused
# [17:53] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I don't know
# [17:53] <sgalineau> s/post/paused
# [17:54] <dauwhe> shans_: I think we disagree, I think it should fire right away, Sylavin thinks it should fire when unpaused
# [17:54] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we are clearly inside the animations progress, so it should fire
# [17:54] <dauwhe> plinss: any time we fire a start, we should fire an end
# [17:55] <dauwhe> sgalineau: the confusion is that all start tells you is that it applied, not that it's running
# [17:55] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: you can't tell about pause from start events
# [17:55] <dauwhe> shans_: pause events are a good idea
# [17:55] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: if you're trying to manually sync with animation, then you need to know
# [17:56] <dauwhe> ... you'd have start event then pause
# [17:56] <dauwhe> plinss: can't pause before start
# [17:56] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: assuming pause events give you time, should be zero in case it's paused at start
# [17:56] <dauwhe> sgalineau: should we add pause event to level one?
# [17:56] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I don't have opinion
# [17:57] <dauwhe> plinss: don't want to delay REC
# [17:57] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we could add quickly
# [17:57] <dauwhe> shans_: we can delay
# [17:57] * Bert warns: the network *may* be cut again sometime between 18:00 and 20:00, depending on whether the maintenance yesterday was succesful (which I don't know)
# [17:57] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I'm okay with that
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# [17:58] <glazou> <adjourn/>
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# [17:59] <dauwhe> fantasai: does anyone have objection to display module using new process?
# [17:59] <dauwhe> dbaron: let's save for tomorrow, so we can resolve to move everything to move process
# [18:00] * dauwhe sgalineau: can you put last resolution into IRC?
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# [18:00] <dbaron> trackbot, ACTION-636?
# [18:00] * trackbot is looking up ACTION-636.
# [18:00] <trackbot> ACTION-636 -- Tab Atkins Jr. to Write up proposal for www-style -- due 2014-09-16 -- OPEN
# [18:00] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/636
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> I ALREADY DID IT, TRACKBOT
# [18:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Just want to make sure nobody objects, since it's already in the pipeline to be published on Thursday
# [18:01] <dauwhe> <br type="day"/>
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# [23:39] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# Session Close: Wed Sep 10 00:00:00 2014

The end :)