/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-09-10 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Sep 10 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [09:03] <plinss> zakim, remind me in 9 hours to go home
# [09:03] <Zakim> ok, plinss
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# [09:09] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
# [09:09] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2014/09/10-css-irc#T07-13-21
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# [09:13] <andreyr> text-overflow : ellipsis-lastline
# [09:13] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Text overflow ellipsis
# [09:13] <andreyr> > There's no way to ellipsis a multiline block of text. There's an Opera specific -o-ellipsis-lastline that does exactly, It should clamp an HTML element by adding ellipsis to it if the content inside is too long.
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# [09:13] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: There doesn't seem to be a way to ellipsis multiline of text
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# [09:13] <andreyr> https://github.com/Merri/ellipsis-lastline
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# [09:14] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: One of the versions of opera has ellipsis-lastline
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# [09:14] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: You might have multiple boxes with wrapping, so it gets really complicated
# [09:15] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: If you have 10 different rectangles with news info you would need ellipsis to show there is more text
# [09:15] * fantasai needs IE results for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20%20lang%3Dja%20style%3D%22width%3A%2010em%3B%20border%3A%20solid%3B%20text-align%3A%20justify%22%3E%0A%EC%84%9C%EC%9A%B8%ED%8A%B9%EB%B3%84%EC%8B%9C%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5supercalifragilisticexpialidocious%3C%2Fp%3E
# [09:15] <gregwhitworth> Rossen: We have discussed block overflow ellipses
# [09:16] <gregwhitworth> It seems easy with just text, if you have tables, flex, images where do you ellipse?
# [09:16] * chrisl fantasai - pass criteria?
# [09:16] <gregwhitworth> Rossen: When you try to generalize it as a web platform solution it becomes very difficult
# [09:16] <dbaron> we had a thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/thread.html#msg624
# [09:16] <gregwhitworth> Andreyr: Does it have to be anything beyond text
# [09:17] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: Someone just needs to come up with a proposal in each case and then we can determine whether it is ok
# [09:18] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: Authors will figure out how to/not to use it because it is in demand
# [09:18] <hober> See also -webkit-line-clamp
# [09:18] <gregwhitworth> rossen: This is one of the number one requests
# [09:18] <gregwhitworth> rossen: then when we start talking about how their going to use the content they tell us they don't have control over the content
# [09:19] * fantasai chrisl that's the issue, we don't know yet :)
# [09:19] * fantasai trying to figure out what browsers do, i.e. where is space distributed on the first line?
# [09:19] <gregwhitworth> rossen: can we assume that you only have text and the answer is normally "No"
# [09:20] <gregwhitworth> rossen: it's easy to say this on the first level, but when we start referring to children with different display types and floats this becomes complicated
# [09:21] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: text is normally inside something else, and inside something else
# [09:21] <gregwhitworth> rossen: this makes it hard to determine what to truncate
# [09:21] <gregwhitworth> rossen: it's not trivial
# [09:21] * chrisl screenshot in your mail
# [09:22] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Can I get help, TabAtkins and GregWhitworth offer for help
# [09:22] <gregwhitworth> plh: Rossen, can you put these problem examples together?
# [09:23] <gregwhitworth> bert: If you have a region but want a continuation mark, not ellipses how do you do this?
# [09:23] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#text-overflow-block-hint
# [09:23] * fantasai cool, thanks. If you add text-justify: inter-ideographic, does it change?
# [09:23] <gregwhitworth> rossen: isn't this what we discussed in Seoul? Being able to control the overflow but also the marker so that you can add events and design it
# [09:24] <gregwhitworth> rossen: Then having the regular ellipsi inserting the fade gradient and how to add eventing
# [09:25] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Hover if very common in this functionality
# [09:25] <Rossen_> andreyr: here's a wiki about block elipsis http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#text-overflow-block-hint
# [09:26] <gregwhitworth> bert: Is this the same mechanism for continuation mark, or is it a different? Can we combine overflow: ellipsis and overflow: paged?
# [09:26] <gregwhitworth> rossen: yes, that is what we were wanting to have. It has to be mutually exclusive
# [09:26] <gregwhitworth> rossen: I don't want to have overflow: scroll and ellipse
# [09:27] <gregwhitworth> florian: yes scroll and ellipses doesn't make sense but I do think of use cases for ellipses and paged
# [09:27] <gregwhitworth> florian: overflow ellipses doesn't send the content somewhere else
# [09:28] <gregwhitworth> rossen: sure we can have overflow: block ellipses paged, and block ellipses continue
# [09:28] <gregwhitworth> rossen: if we figure out block ellipses we can add this functionality
# [09:29] <gregwhitworth> bert: we will want to be able to extend it, so let's not design ourselves into a corner
# [09:29] <gregwhitworth> chrisl: you can have the content in a footnote and have it linked up
# [09:29] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: We can meet up later to discuss this
# [09:29] <gregwhitworth> andrey: now to the next one
# [09:29] <fantasai> Note to self: elt { flow-name: fo; } elt2 { content: extract-flow(foo) | copy-flow(foo) | continue-flow(foo); }
# [09:30] <andreyr> Ability to control the number of lines of "context" to show in a scrollable content editable
# [09:30] <andreyr> http://bloomberg.github.io/chromium.bb/repros/cursorContext.html
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# [09:31] <fantasai> (ideas discussed over dinner based on Bert's comments yesterday)
# [09:31] <gregwhitworth> andrey: keep pressing enter, to add the scroll bar by going to the bottom of the viewport
# [09:32] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Currently this is working in Safari, Webkit, Firefox and IE
# [09:32] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: I thought this was a bug in Chrome
# [09:34] <gregwhitworth> fantasai: When you're in a content editable, and you move the cursor up it starts scrolling because you're beyond the edge of the screen. We could call it carrot context to to show visibility of lines
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> ted: it seems like a quality of implementation issue
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> glazou: the mechanism doing it is in the word editor, not the browser
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> bert: like highlighting text to show the cursor
# [09:35] * fantasai glazou, I think you might want to expain that into IRC
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> alan: There is the editing explainer that this might be beneficial to be brought up to them
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Does Chrome agree with that
# [09:35] <gregwhitworth> Tab: Sure, file a bug
# [09:36] <gregwhitworth> Resolution: Quality of implementation issue
# [09:36] <glazou> glazou: some online editors want to control finely caret's position inside the editable area but is this on the browser side or the app side?
# [09:36] <astearns_> perhaps add to http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/
# [09:36] <andreyr> :focusWithin
# [09:36] <andreyr> > I'm sure there's a better name, but a selector that would match if that element or any of its children currently has > focus. Without this a parent can't change its appearance when focus enters an inner element, for example adding a glow > around a section for a page that has multiple forms on screen and you want an indication what larger subset of the page in > currently being operated on.
# [09:36] <andreyr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0713.html
# [09:37] <fantasai> (it was previously proposed as :contains-focus)
# [09:37] <TabAtkins> :focus, :has(:focus)
# [09:37] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: This is a previously reported issue
# [09:38] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: We have the :has selector now so you should be able to test this without doing a special case
# [09:38] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: It's already in the spec it just needs to be implemented
# [09:38] <gregwhitworth> florian: Does this work on the children psuedo elements
# [09:38] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: It should, not sure why it wouldn't
# [09:39] * dbaron isn't so sure about :has() and pseudo-elements
# [09:39] <andreyr> Fixed & Sticky positioning inside overflow:scroll inner divs
# [09:39] <andreyr> > Position:fixed and position:sticky are great, but for some strange reason they are only relative to the entire document. > If you have a little scrollable div in the middle of your page it is perfectly reasonable to expect the same fixed and > sticky positioning could be done relative to your nearest overflow scrolling parent. This would enable things like fixed > headers for scrolling tables and lists.
# [09:39] * TabAtkins dbaron, why?
# [09:40] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: If it would help, I can put together an example if that would help
# [09:40] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: is sticky different from fixed here?
# [09:40] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: Maybe it's better to wait for an example
# [09:41] <gregwhitworth> Tab: What do you mean
# [09:41] <gregwhitworth> glazou: If you scroll the window it will move, if you scroll the inner content it the fixed header will be there
# [09:42] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: looking into abspos
# [09:42] <gregwhitworth> Rossen: huh
# [09:42] <gregwhitworth> Tab: Make a container, give it an abspos child and scroll. It will not act like a fixpos when scrolling
# [09:43] <gregwhitworth> Tab: It's like fixed relative to the container than the document
# [09:43] <gregwhitworth> Rossen: it's not going to scroll
# [09:43] <gregwhitworth> glazou: just make the test
# [09:43] <gregwhitworth> Tab: That's what I'm doing right now
# [09:44] <TabAtkins> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3167
# [09:44] <gregwhitworth> Tab: Shows testcase
# [09:44] <gregwhitworth> The red box should stay in the corner
# [09:44] <gregwhitworth> Tab: Assuming we want to update the positioning spec, this sounds reasonable
# [09:45] <gregwhitworth> Tab: if we build positioning primitives this will pop out as something we can do
# [09:46] <gregwhitworth> rossen: there are still work arounds for this
# [09:46] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: I guess this isn't a huge issue, but we have work arounds for everything already and we don't want to do them
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> Tab: I had a draft of them and the group didn't want it
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> Rossen: Well you went a little bit too far
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: is there something I can start with
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> tab: There isn't currently, I went down a rabbit hole
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> andreyr: I'll put something together
# [09:47] <gregwhitworth> Next item: Adoption of new process
# [09:48] <gregwhitworth> glazou: Never mind, next face to face dates
# [09:49] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: There are some price cliffs based on the dates. I think it happens to deal with vacations, so we should shift it by a week (at least right now)
# [09:49] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: I think Dirk had issues
# [09:49] <gregwhitworth> dirk: That's ok though
# [09:50] <gregwhitworth> glazou: Suggest the 11th, 12, 13th of February
# [09:52] <gregwhitworth> It would be beneficial if the SVG WG could move their's we would prefer the 9th, 10th and 11th
# [09:53] <gregwhitworth> We will wait for SVG WG answer before resolution
# [09:53] <gregwhitworth> plh: I am new to this new process
# [09:54] <gregwhitworth> plh: We need to get rid of some of the pain between LC and CR
# [09:54] * glazou s/pain/pains, even
# [09:54] * TabAtkins gregwhitworth, the reason you didn't see any open flexbox issues is because the "issues list" link was two years out of date. Fixed now: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325
# [09:54] * ed thinks having the f2f that week would be better, can I mention that as an option in the SVG WG call tomorrow?
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# [09:55] <gregwhitworth> plh: The new process does, it get's rid of LC
# [09:55] <gregwhitworth> plh: you still have to do review, but in the state of WD - but when you're ready you move to LC and subsequently CR
# [09:55] <gregwhitworth> plh: You're supposed to get a review of it, and then issue the change
# [09:57] <gregwhitworth> plh: The expectation is if you want to republish a CR you need to get approval and it should occur quickly
# [09:57] <gregwhitworth> plh: We did this recently for two of the CSS documents, there are some areas that we can streamline but that is the major change
# [09:57] <gregwhitworth> plh: And the dance that you're doing between the LC and CR with the directors
# [09:58] * TabAtkins ed, yeah, please do
# [09:58] <gregwhitworth> szillis: If you do a change in CR it does trigger the patent policy, and only on the delta
# [09:59] <astearns_> s/szillis/SteveZ/
# [09:59] <gregwhitworth> plh: When should we switch to the new process, it is really up to the group?
# [09:59] <gregwhitworth> plh: Also in CR, you can move to the new process
# [09:59] <gregwhitworth> plh: Documents in LC you can not move to the new process
# [10:00] <gregwhitworth> fantasai: Do we need to republish?
# [10:00] <plh> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ProcessTransition2014#Impact_on_Working_Groups
# [10:00] * ed TabAtkins, meaning svg 9 - 10th, fxtf 11th, css 12 - 13th?
# [10:00] * hober https://twitter.com/w3cmemes/status/509613077688745984
# [10:00] <plh> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ProcessTransition2014#What_is_the_transition_procedure_for_groups.3F
# [10:00] * TabAtkins ed, yes
# [10:00] * glazou ed the contrary ; css beginning of week, svg at the end
# [10:01] * ed glazou ok
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# [10:01] <gregwhitworth_> plh: That is a good point, you don't want to trigger the patent policy between LC to CR
# [10:02] <gregwhitworth_> dbaron: We should move all of our documents to the new process as soon as possible
# [10:02] <gregwhitworth_> dbaron: I presume we can resolve right now to do this on all specs
# [10:02] <gregwhitworth_> chrisl: I propose we do that
# [10:02] <gregwhitworth_> florian: Will we need to republish for them to be on the new process
# [10:03] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: Update the boilerplate
# [10:03] <dbaron> proposed resolution: We should convert all specs to the new process at the next publication at which such a conversion is allowed.
# [10:03] <chrisl> even WD has to say in SOTD whether its oldstyle or newstyle
# [10:04] <gregwhitworth_> Tab: Sure, it's a boilerplate I'll update it
# [10:04] <chrisl> zakim, list attendees
# [10:04] <Zakim> sorry, chrisl, I don't know what conference this is
# [10:05] <glazou> Presebnt: andreyr, plinss, simonsapin, fantasai, dbaron, hober, rossen, plh, krit, greg, zcorpan, tabatkins, iank, chrisl, yamamoto, glazou, florian, bert, stevez, dhauwe, astearns, glenn
# [10:05] <glazou> s/Presebnt/Present
# [10:05] <glazou> all in favor but two "abstains": yamamoto + Bert
# [10:05] <glazou> no objection
# [10:05] * hober do you mean presebn't, a contraction of "preseb not"?
# [10:05] <chrisl> zakim, this is css
# [10:05] <Zakim> sorry, chrisl, I do not see a conference named 'css' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [10:05] <glazou> RESOLVED: We should convert all specs to the new process at the next publication at which such a conversion is allowed
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# [10:08] <gregwhitworth_> plh: it's not effecting you, it shouldn't be an issue it is just based on a delta.
# [10:08] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: Anything else on the new process
# [10:09] * chrisl its the presebeterians again
# [10:09] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We are trying to determine what is "wide review" and we want to define that
# [10:10] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We can talk about the pipeline that we've been working on
# [10:10] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We're trying to resolve the pain of publishing
# [10:10] <chrisl> s/pipeline/publishing pipeline/
# [10:10] <gregwhitworth_> plh: It's a high cost on WD and the W3C directors
# [10:10] <gregwhitworth_> plh: You can update it as often as you want, we want to be able to do that
# [10:11] * chrisl pubrules
# [10:11] <gregwhitworth_> plh: if publication rules are ok then we'll let it go through based on the link sent in by the editor
# [10:11] * chrisl it determines how to choose a pub, based on availability of cask conditioned ales
# [10:11] <gregwhitworth_> plh: if you try to publish more than one on the same day, then we'll grab the latest one
# [10:12] <gregwhitworth_> plh: it should be automatic
# [10:12] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: Are you getting consensus from the WGs
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# [10:12] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We didn't think it was necessary
# [10:12] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We want to leave this to the groups
# [10:13] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: If there is a form, do not make it mandatory but also make it so that we can have a URL for consensus
# [10:13] <gregwhitworth_> plh: Also, there will be a way to do an undo
# [10:13] <gregwhitworth_> plh: It will notify the chairs that a publication occurred
# [10:14] <gregwhitworth_> plh: With all that, do you want to have a link
# [10:14] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: It could just be a general comment box for us to look up later
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# [10:14] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: Is it possible for the form to know each Working Groups public mailing list
# [10:15] * Joins: tommyjtl_ (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [10:15] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: The whole point is to push working drafts constantly
# [10:15] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: I don't want the public list spammed for every new working draft
# [10:16] <dbaron> TabAtkins: I don't want the setup to post to the public mailing list to be used as an argument to preclude us from doing constant publication.
# [10:16] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: I disagree that you should push directly to the WD without consensus
# [10:17] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: I think we do want to publish faster and allow editors to make quicker changes without consensus. That shouldn't have to go to telecon to make editorial changes
# [10:18] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: The point of the consensus is that it allows you to review complicated information
# [10:18] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:18] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: The TR page currently points to the WD and ED
# [10:19] * plh saw a comment against HTML4 recently...
# [10:19] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: The whole point of this is to get TR up to date so that everyone is using TR
# [10:20] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: I agree with peter so I only brought this up that we shouldn't need this going to the mailing list
# [10:21] <gregwhitworth_> Ted: I agree that editorial changes should be published easily, but there have been examples that are controversial
# [10:21] <gregwhitworth_> Ted: We should treat our editors as adults, we have the Undo button
# [10:22] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: Who can push the undo button
# [10:22] <gregwhitworth_> plh: The chair can press the undo button
# [10:22] <dbaron> s/chair/chairs and team contacts/
# [10:22] <chrisl> s/chair/chairs and team contacts/
# [10:23] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: There are two audiences for these documents. Implementors and Authors
# [10:25] <gregwhitworth_> plh: Some groups will be updating the WD more frequently
# [10:25] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: My ideal mode of operating will be, is that there is a history chain of changes
# [10:25] * TabAtkins plh, I can't find the boilerplate for updating in the new process
# [10:25] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:25] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: Those snapshots are chained to discussions from the WG
# [10:26] <hober> s/fantasia/fantasai/g
# [10:26] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: The TR page is the thing that EVERYONE uses to look at
# [10:26] <dbaron> fantasai: I'd like it so that every change that's not in the process of being edited gets to the TR page as soon as possible.
# [10:27] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: Any edits to keep that up to date, that level of up to dateness be possible with the new process
# [10:27] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: The only things that are not going to TR are the things that we are working out technical details on the mailing list
# [10:27] <gregwhitworth_> s/fantasia/fantasai
# [10:28] * chrisl Tab, pubrules checker manual version has a radiobutton to select old or new
# [10:28] * chrisl http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules?uimode=checker_full&;uri=
# [10:28] <gregwhitworth_> glazou: I still want consensus on publications of substantiative changes to publish a WD (non-editorial stuff)
# [10:30] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: I think this will need to be done on a spec by spec bases; based on the maturity of specs
# [10:31] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: My issue is that editors push all the time to EDs that implementors and authors looking at
# [10:31] <glazou> I don't want to see WD updated every day
# [10:32] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: I agree with most of what you say
# [10:33] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: If you can publish under TR more quickly you can use the ED as a scratchpad and the TR can be the one people look at
# [10:33] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:33] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: I think your issue with remembering to send emails to publish we should offer tooling
# [10:34] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: I will send about 12 emails per day then
# [10:35] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: We just need to have it noted, it can be on a twitter account or email list, it doesn't have to be on www-style
# [10:35] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: It's creating the ability to create a little bit of a break here as I leave things partially done in the ED
# [10:36] <gregwhitworth_> plins: That sounds fine, have the back and forth on the ED and then publish to WD
# [10:36] <fantasai> fantasai^: I don't filter on EDs.
# [10:36] <gregwhitworth_> s/plins/plinss
# [10:37] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: You've now added the work to all of us
# [10:37] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: No I have not, you can still just review once a year
# [10:38] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: The people that have dependencies aren't looking at the ED
# [10:38] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: That's not true
# [10:39] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: if it's the thing you should look at, it should be the thing that the W3C should look at
# [10:39] * plh apologizes for derailing the agenda
# [10:39] <gregwhitworth_> dholbert: What is the end conclusion we're looking for here?
# [10:39] <dauwhe> s/dholbert/dbaron/
# [10:39] <gregwhitworth_> dholbert: Were there some changes to what PLH stated?
# [10:40] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: No, we're ironing out some of the details on that now based on the auto publish feature
# [10:40] <dbaron> s/dholbert/dbaron/
# [10:40] <gregwhitworth_> plh: There will be a checkbox for checking whether a draft has large changes
# [10:41] * Joins: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [10:41] <gregwhitworth_> plh: The system was designed to trust individuals, and I don't want it to decide what the WG's should do
# [10:41] <gregwhitworth_> plh: It is designed to allow groups to publish daily.
# [10:42] <gregwhitworth_> astearns: I have a strong desire to trust the editors will publish WD appropriately and not add WG process until we actually have an issue
# [10:43] <gregwhitworth_> plh: If there are issues down the road there are steps that we can take, but we don't want to solve a problem that hasn't occurred yet
# [10:44] <glazou> glazou: section 7.3.2 of new process says "a Working Group must record the group's decision to request publication"
# [10:44] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: This is a change, this making WD without consensus
# [10:45] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: If you think this a change you're not following along today, we have everyone look at the ED.
# [10:46] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: I think it is very important that people that go to the WD and it be the latest
# [10:47] <gregwhitworth_> fantasia: I want all consensus and approval done through the same system
# [10:47] * Quits: tommyjtl_ (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:47] <chrisl> s/SteveZ: This/glenn: This/
# [10:47] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: The status section should be updated in all WD
# [10:48] <gregwhitworth_> florian: Are you suggested as having WDs and having a WD that states it has consensus.
# [10:48] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: Yes, we can even have the color change, etc
# [10:48] <plh> q+
# [10:48] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [10:49] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: We can even have links (Latest Working Draft, Latest Consensus Draft)
# [10:49] <glazou> q+
# [10:49] * Zakim sees plh, glazou on the speaker queue
# [10:49] <gregwhitworth_> plh: Two points I'd like to make
# [10:49] <gregwhitworth_> plh: It does not make the decision for the group
# [10:50] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We still have a nightly draft link, but we are not going to copy the editors draft into the TR space
# [10:50] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: We should still retain the editors draft
# [10:50] <gregwhitworth_> plh: It will not go away
# [10:50] <glazou> q-
# [10:50] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [10:50] <plh> q-
# [10:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:51] <glazou> Zakim, ack plh
# [10:51] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [10:51] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: that then makes the ED become a scratch space
# [10:51] <glenn> q+
# [10:51] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [10:51] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: I've had implementors reference my editors drafts when I'm trying to figure something out.
# [10:52] <fantasai> ....
# [10:52] <gregwhitworth_> glenn: My issue is that you're trying to relabel this as a Working Draft but it is an editors draft. It should be a group process output
# [10:53] <gregwhitworth_> glenn: I have a real problem with that. If you call it a Non-Consensus Working Draft then I'm fine with it
# [10:53] * chrisl has to leave for another appointment, sorry
# [10:53] <glenn> ack glenn
# [10:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:53] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: There is a presumption of working draft
# [10:54] <zcorpan> q+
# [10:54] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [10:54] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: You're arguing the definition of working draft
# [10:54] <gregwhitworth_> SteveZ: Come up with the name that means Editor's Working Draft
# [10:55] <gregwhitworth_> SimonSapin: We are actually arguing about the URL more than the name since Tab doesn't care
# [10:55] <dbaron> s/SimonSapin/zcorpan/
# [10:55] <dbaron> zcorpan: so why don't we leave the names as-is and just fix the URL so the editor's draft on TR?
# [10:56] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: We have our own tooling with bikeshed, we can make an ED published and then with consensus this can be updated. We can add additional tooling to make this easy and make the output result very clear to what we're doing
# [10:56] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [10:57] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: Part of the update, was to allow the groups to practice and experiment with our own process
# [10:57] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: When will this tooling be available
# [10:57] <gregwhitworth_> plh: Between TPAC and 2015
# [10:57] <gregwhitworth_> plh: We will be testing between TPAC and 2015
# [10:57] * astearns_ expects a multi-hour rehash of this at the CSS meeting at TPAC
# [10:58] <TabAtkins> ack zcorpan
# [10:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:59] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [11:15] * Quits: Bert_projector (~Bert_projector@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:20] * Quits: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [11:28] * Joins: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak)
# [11:36] <fantasai> Topic: Flexbox
# [11:36] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325
# [11:36] <glazou> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
# [11:37] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: last call issues list
# [11:37] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
# [11:37] <dbaron> TabAtkins: check the open issues box so we can go through just the 5 open ones
# [11:37] <SimonSapin> fantasai: skip 12, talked with Rossen
# [11:37] <dbaron> (12, 20, 21, 27, 39)
# [11:37] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: consider it closed
# [11:37] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: issue 20. New keyword other than auto for flex bases
# [11:37] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "main size" would work, but did poll of authors, 20 responses
# [11:38] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: 21 in favor of "main size", [...]
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> axis-size
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> flex-main-size
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> initial-size
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> main-size
# [11:38] <TabAtkins> use-size
# [11:38] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: first 3 one vote each, use-size 4
# [11:39] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: firefox nightly already has the new value
# [11:39] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: seems fine for now, wrt compat issues
# [11:39] <SimonSapin> fantasai: confirming on the name, and whether we need to back out and do something different
# [11:40] <SimonSapin> fantasai: next publ is LC anyway, can mark as issue "waiting for back compat data"
# [11:40] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: resolve to take this value, pending further issue reports
# [11:40] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: so, no 'auto' at all?
# [11:40] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: can use auto, means same as usual
# [11:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai: now 'auto' just passes through from width/height, no way to flex
# [11:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai: either rename 'auto', or come up with a different keyword for automatic behavior
# [11:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai: that is, you looked at width/height and got auto
# [11:42] <SimonSapin> fantasai: so calling it 'auto' makes sense, but could rename if compat issue
# [11:42] <SimonSapin> gregwhitworth_: why not leave auto and add a new one
# [11:43] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: it’s weird to have 'auto' have a different meaning as in width/height, while other values are the same
# [11:44] <SimonSapin> fantasai: [draws an example] 'flex-basis: auto' looks at the width prop
# [11:44] <SimonSapin> fantasai: need value A look at width, and value B automagic
# [11:44] <SimonSapin> fantasai: A, if width is auto, automagic
# [11:45] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: current behavior seems good
# [11:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai: disadvantages is that some existing content relies on the earlier meaning
# [11:46] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: main-size does what auto used to, auto does what it does in width
# [11:46] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: previously you could not specify auto in flex-basis without setting width as well
# [11:47] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: new keyword does not collide with width values
# [11:47] <SimonSapin> fantasai: options are: auto keyword continues to look at width and do that, no compat issue, and we need a new keyword for magic
# [11:48] <SimonSapin> fantasai: other option that we’re trying: magic is called auto, and "look at my size property" called main-size
# [11:48] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: that’s what firefox implemented. Minor compat issues
# [11:48] <SimonSapin> dbaron: the one existing was pretty major, on google search, but you fixed it
# [11:49] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: issue not likely, we tell in the spec to use some patterns
# [11:49] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: tutorials use the flex shorthand, which is fine
# [11:49] <SimonSapin> dbaron: this stuff is pretty new
# [11:49] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: the google search issue was because of a tool
# [11:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: other issue: shorthand 'flex: auto' means main-size, not auto
# [11:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: for the main-size solution we have flex-basis: auto and width: auto match, but small back-compat issue. Not huge, but don’t know how trivial. Also flex: auto means flex: main-size, which is inconsistent. To preserve compat, but kinda awkward
# [11:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: disadvantage of the magic solution is that flex-basis: auto does not match width: auto, but no back-compat issue and flex shorthand is consistent
# [11:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’m leaving toward doing the keyword for magic instead
# [11:52] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: no, let’s not change what we have unless forced by compat
# [11:52] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: things are dumb no matter what
# [11:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: comments?
# [11:53] <SimonSapin> dbaron: don’t wanna keep changing stuff
# [11:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: was surprised that moz impl so quickly
# [11:53] <SimonSapin> dbaron: you should have said it was not ready
# [11:54] * fantasai was hoping for it to get reviewed immediately, not implemented immediately :)
# [11:54] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: the point is that the meaning of a size keeps the same meaning
# [11:54] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: why not call it "use something"?
# [11:54] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: because poll says people don’t like it
# [11:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "main" is a term of art in flexbox
# [11:55] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: not objecting
# [11:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: name isn’t great, could do better
# [11:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: does anyone object? There’s a small possibility of finding compat issue
# [11:56] <SimonSapin> fantasai: concerned about this
# [11:56] <SimonSapin> fantasai: auto often means do a special case
# [11:56] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: but that complicates the grammar
# [11:57] <SimonSapin> dbaron: grammar is more than syntaxic, also defines meaning
# [11:58] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’d prefer the grammar was just the grammar
# [11:58] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: don’t want to say <'width'> in grammar if auto has a different meaning
# [11:59] <SimonSapin> gregwhitworth_: I’d rather stick with what we have
# [11:59] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: is that in nightly?
# [11:59] <SimonSapin> dbaron: in aurora now
# [11:59] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: want to see compat on mobile. Do you get numbers on desktop mostly?
# [11:59] <SimonSapin> dbaron: we do get bug reports from users
# [12:00] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: mobile usage of flexbox is way higher. If not capturing mobile, we’re understating compat issue
# [12:00] <SimonSapin> fantasai: put this in the spec, mark an issue
# [12:00] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: this is what I would do from scratch
# [12:01] <fantasai> flex: auto; expands to flex-basis: main-size;
# [12:01] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: 'flex: auto' meaning something strange is the only thing I’d do differently
# [12:02] <SimonSapin> Bert: no objection, but you mentioned current-size as one option?
# [12:02] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: no
# [12:02] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [12:02] <SimonSapin> Bert: we have currentcolor, so current* would make sense
# [12:02] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I wish we had this idea 3 months ago
# [12:02] <SimonSapin> dbaron: is it really the current size, in the middle of the process, not the one you end up with? Feels weird
# [12:03] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: sounds like no objections
# [12:03] <SimonSapin> fantasai: as long as we mark issue, waiting for compat feedback. Would love to hear from Microsoft on that. We already know what to do if it’s an issue
# [12:05] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Accept proposed solution for issue 20, with issue for waiting on compat feedback explaining alternate solution
# [12:05] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-21
# [12:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue 21, waiting for review from Rossen or anybody else. About cross-side of stretch items being definite
# [12:05] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-27
# [12:05] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: yes, this is fine. Accept proposal
# [12:06] <dbaron> RESOLVED: accept proposed resolution for issue 21
# [12:06] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Issue 27: implications of adding min-content max-content to min/max-width/height properties
# [12:06] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: previously, min/max were always definite
# [12:07] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: resolved to 0 or something. now, you can say min-width:min-content, which is not definite. Can’t use for clamping
# [12:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue is %age sized child trying to resolved against your height. Say you have definite height, but min-height indefinite. What does the child resolve against? Could end up at different height than specified
# [12:08] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0009.html
# [12:08] <SimonSapin> [explaning what’s in the email]
# [12:09] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Three proposed options [...]
# [12:09] <fantasai> What should happen in such a situation?
# [12:09] <fantasai> A. Have the percentage child size as for 'auto', as for intrinsic
# [12:09] <fantasai> 'width/height' values on the parent? (This means that, by default,
# [12:09] <fantasai> percentage heights will never work on children of flex items, since
# [12:09] <fantasai> flex items have a default min-size calculation involving the
# [12:09] <fantasai> min-content height.)
# [12:09] <fantasai> B. Ignore the potential effects of the min/max size when resolve the
# [12:09] <fantasai> percentage? (This means the child may underflow/overflow the flex
# [12:09] <fantasai> item.)
# [12:09] <fantasai> C. Do a two-pass layout? (We already do this in some cases, like
# [12:09] <fantasai> percentage cross-sizes resolved against an indefinite flex container.
# [12:09] <fantasai> But note that stacked 2-pass layouts are O(n^2).)
# [12:09] <fantasai> D. Something else?
# [12:09] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: A is not great, %ages won’t work most of the time, B not great because you can overflow or underflow, C is not great because expensive
# [12:11] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [12:11] <SimonSapin> dbaron: [explains a corner case]
# [12:11] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ok, we can have indefinite always be ignored for the purpose of percentages
# [12:12] <dbaron> I think we already hit this with <div id="A" computing intrinsic width on this><div id="B" style="width: 600px; min-width: 50%"><div id="C" style="width: 50%" need to figure out intrinsic width of this></div></div></div> ... though maybe the behavior here is undetectable.
# [12:12] <SimonSapin> dbaron: behavior may be undetectable in that case
# [12:12] <SimonSapin> dbaron: intuition is is B
# [12:13] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: B is also my preferred one. Least disruptive while maintaining some usefulness
# [12:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: seems reasonable
# [12:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: 2-pass layout is exponential when you stack flexboxes
# [12:14] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: in windows apps, level of nesting gets deep pretty quickly. 9 levels is not uncommon
# [12:15] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: there are ways to avoid exponential
# [12:15] <SimonSapin> dbaron: intrinsic widths are not right anyway unless we do percentage reversing
# [12:16] <SimonSapin> dbaron: divide non-percentages by one minus percentages
# [12:16] <SimonSapin> gregwhitworth_: C would allow authors to declare these to work as expected?
# [12:16] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: yeah
# [12:17] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: dealing with multi-pass layout getting stacked causes significant perf problems
# [12:17] * fantasai is scared of C
# [12:18] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: already possible to invoke at least a second layout per flexbox
# [12:18] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: up to 4. Not great
# [12:18] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: should we straw poll
# [12:19] <SimonSapin> dbaron: what do you mean by multi-pass? Want to keep intrinsic widths from layout
# [12:19] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: first pass figures out min-content, so the second can clamp. This is layout affecting intrinsic sizes
# [12:20] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: so, unclamped pass to figure out min-content, then use that to get the main size?
# [12:20] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: yes
# [12:20] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
# [12:20] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: theoretically you can still do one pass only
# [12:23] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: possible to do trick to avoid exponential, but still need multiple passes
# [12:24] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Wanna go with B, simple
# [12:25] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: let’s poll. Does anyone want A? Let’s toss it out
# [12:25] <fantasai> [The more I think about http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#valdef-flex-auto the more I think it is weird]
# [12:25] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: narrow down to B and C
# [12:26] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Intrinsic requiring layout sounds very bad
# [12:26] <fantasai> SimonSapin: It sounds very bad if intrinsic siz requires layout
# [12:26] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how often does this happen?
# [12:27] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: all the time, one of the default values in flexbox involves intrinsic sizing
# [12:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we at least want to avoid dependency cycles
# [12:28] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: vertical text has percentage against the height that is infinite, resolve to 100vh
# [12:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: straw poll?
# [12:28] <dbaron> Tab: B vs. C
# [12:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Issue is: width:600px, min-width: min-content (potentially bigger than 600px). Percentage-sized child. What does % refer to?
# [12:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: B: ignore the clamping for percentages
# [12:30] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: only flexbox or in general?
# [12:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in general
# [12:31] <SimonSapin> florian: so ignore min/max always, or only if it it’s not definite?
# [12:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: the latter
# [12:31] <SimonSapin> dbaron: normal thing is ignore things that require information from the parent
# [12:32] <SimonSapin> fantasai: option C is to do multi-pass layout to try to figure out min-content, and decide which size the % should refer to
# [12:34] <SimonSapin> poll: C, B, B, B, C, C, B, not sure, B
# [12:34] <dbaron> (Alan, Shane, Tab, zcorpan, gregwhitworth, Rossen, dbaron, fantasai, SimonSapin)
# [12:34] <SimonSapin> Bert: in 2.1 percentages don’t require two passes, we should keep that
# [12:34] <hober> poll: and 13 abstentions
# [12:34] <SimonSapin> Bert: but still want to have same-sized things
# [12:34] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 'flex: 1'
# [12:34] <SimonSapin> fantasai: B seems simpler, happy with that
# [12:35] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: if you want to fix it later… Lots of implementers in the room, not many users
# [12:35] <SimonSapin> dbaron: users would expect the percentage thing anyway, intrinsic sizes are already meaning less anyway
# [12:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: A is gonna make users unhappy
# [12:36] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: picking B now seems safer, author can complain and we can do better later
# [12:37] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: still a compat problem
# [12:37] * hober would like to examine the exponential complexity of the stack of empty plates i would like to leave on my lunch tray
# [12:37] <SimonSapin> fantasai: unlikely that authors expect min-width to trigger, it’s more of a safety
# [12:38] * Bert is getting hungry...
# [12:38] <SimonSapin> Rossen_: even though in favor of C, I feel we can be more interoperable with B
# [12:38] * dauwhe Bert: +1
# [12:38] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’m solidly on B at this point
# [12:38] <TabAtkins> http://memedad.com/meme/266517
# [12:39] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Behavior B
# [12:39] <TabAtkins> <br type=lunch>
# [12:40] <dauwhe> s/<br type=lunch>/<br type="lunch"/>/
# [12:40] * hober ewwwwh, gross, xhtml
# [12:43] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [12:45] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [12:48] * Quits: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [12:56] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:56] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [13:03] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [13:15] <Ms2ger> dauwhe--
# [13:24] * Quits: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [13:35] * Joins: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak)
# [13:40] <TabAtkins> I just lost my appetite.
# [13:40] * Quits: ikilpatrick (~ikilpatrick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [14:00] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [14:04] * fantasai would like to file a bug against INRIA on the non-erasable whiteboards
# [14:05] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-39
# [14:05] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: about the max-content definition in the previous spec which is wrong
# [14:06] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [14:06] <gregwhitworth_> dbaron: Does this account for the flex basis?
# [14:07] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: yes
# [14:07] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/#intrinsic-sizes
# [14:07] <gregwhitworth_> Fantasai: We would like a WG resolution on this issue
# [14:08] <gregwhitworth_> dbaron: Sounds fine to me
# [14:08] <gregwhitworth_> Resolved accept issue 39
# [14:09] <gregwhitworth_> A couple more issues that need to be officially accepted by the WG
# [14:09] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-22
# [14:10] <gregwhitworth_> florian: Is it very clear since it got mis-understood?
# [14:10] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/#order-accessibility
# [14:13] <gregwhitworth_> Resolution: Rejected due to misunderstanding of the spec for issue 22
# [14:14] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-23
# [14:15] <gregwhitworth_> Resolution: Rejected due to out of scope on issue 23
# [14:15] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-25
# [14:16] <gregwhitworth_> Resolution: We like this idea but are deferring it for issue 25
# [14:17] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325#issue-35
# [14:18] * dauwhe The CSS Working Group: Making Authors Deal since 1997
# [14:18] <gregwhitworth_> Resolution: Rejected for no-change on issue 35
# [14:19] <gregwhitworth_> I think that's it for Flexbox, I think it should be published
# [14:19] <gregwhitworth_> TabAtkins: This had major changes so we need to do a LC
# [14:21] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: We do want to have a feedback period for these changes
# [14:21] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [14:22] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: Do people want to approve the changes before we publish?
# [14:22] <gregwhitworth_> bert: As long as nothing else is changed, I'm fine with this
# [14:23] <gregwhitworth_> plinss: Reworking?
# [14:23] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: There's an edge case so we may have some behavioral changes.
# [14:24] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
# [14:24] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: Do you want us to publish after edits, or after a telecon
# [14:24] <gregwhitworth_> Resolution: Republish as LC when the edits are done
# [14:24] <gregwhitworth_> fantasai: We still have the LC period for people to give feedback
# [14:26] * plinss koji are you available for skype?
# [14:26] * koji yes, should I call, or should I wait for a call?
# [14:26] * plinss we will call you in a moment
# [14:26] * koji thx!
# [14:27] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
# [14:28] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Text
# [14:28] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-3/justify
# [14:28] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/text-justify-auto
# [14:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Issue is that we have been requested to figure out what is a possible "baseline" algorithm example that we can put in the spec that shows how you can handle un-language-tagged content, without doing introspection.
# [14:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Not talking about unjustified, or where there's a lang attr (spec says UA should tailor), or for text-justify:interword (spec already has example).
# [14:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: One option is to expand between ideographs (C & J), but not Hangul.
# [14:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Option two is to not expand between ideographs or hangul.
# [14:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Three is provide some sort of compromise; prioritizing spacing but also allowing CJK expansion, etc.
# [14:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Four is to reintroduce text-justify:inter-ideograph.
# [14:32] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Four means we can tilt the baseline towards hangul, and C/J can use text-justify:inter-ideograph to fix it?
# [14:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes.
# [14:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Our hope is that authors just tag their content.
# [14:32] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: You're saying that there is content out there that uses the inter-ideograph keyword?
# [14:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, it was introduced in an old IE.
# [14:33] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: I thought when we talked about this before, that was preferred.
# [14:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, it gets rid of any magic, but it means people are tagging their content with inter-ideograph, rather than with a lang tag.
# [14:33] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: So this is solely a CJK problem?
# [14:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Pretty much.
# [14:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We have a table of current beahvior, which shows that impls do some interesting things.
# [14:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Gecko does the right think for CJ if you tag, but doesn't expand by default.
# [14:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: IE ignores language, but has inter-ideographic, which turns on expansion in CJK.
# [14:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: WK and Blink on Mac expand between CJ, but not K.
# [14:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Which is what Gecko does when tagged as Japanese.
# [14:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Opera doesn't expand at all for CJK.
# [14:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I've put together a table of document types.
# [14:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: [describes the table in the wiki page]
# [14:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Three types of K documents.
# [14:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Hangul only, probably 70-80%.
# [14:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Mix of Hangul and Han, about 20-30%.
# [14:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: All Han (very old), 1-10%.
# [14:36] <dbaron> Gecko's justification code has a bunch of things that are conditional on the language tag being zh, zh-*, ja, or ja-*
# [14:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If we do "solid CJK" (dont' expand anything), we get bad results for everything but modern all-Hangul docs. Everything else gets no justification.
# [14:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you expand between CJ but not K, you get more or less what's acceptable; mixing Hangul and Han isn't ideal. Transitioning between scripts causes some space, which makes an unintended visual break.
# [14:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Compromise gives acceptable but not great results for everything - you get some space between CJ, but not much, while Korean expands between characters if there is too much space.
# [14:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: [shows her justification experiment]
# [14:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Thihs one shows off the compromise.
# [14:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Here, there's a mix of hangul and han. There's some space between the Hangul characters.
# [14:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Set threshold to zero, you get inter-ideograph.
# [14:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Set it to 100, you get inter-word, probably what Korean wants.
# [14:40] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But I'm not actually sure what Korean prefers in mixed Hangul+Han for extreme justification cases.
# [14:40] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-3/justify
# [14:42] * glazou is impressed by the skype gizmo used today ; hearing koji LOUD and clear, wow
# [14:44] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: So it looks like we should just go with "expand CJ not K"; it's not great for mixed Hangul+Han, but it's great for everything else.
# [14:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Maybe not... [shows off example]
# [14:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It looks like there are spaces there around the Han characters in the mixed content.
# [14:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That seems like it might be hard to read.
# [14:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The compromise option doesn't get spacing quite right, but it's easier to read.
# [14:46] <TabAtkins> florian: If you tag the Korean, it'll work right, correct?
# [14:46] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, it just won't expand around Han in mixed Hangul+Han documents.
# [14:48] * glazou will refrain to make comments on korean now ;-)
# [14:48] * glazou s/to/from
# [14:48] <glazou> s/make/making
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# [14:49] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
# [14:51] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Looking at the "better or worse" table, "expand CJ not K" still seems better - it's better or same for every group but one.
# [14:51] * Quits: gregwhitworth_ (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:52] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm fine with a slightly degraded rendering for a small fraction of Korean documents, in return for basically ideal rendering for Chinese and Japanese, and pure-Hangul Korean.
# [14:52] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:53] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [14:54] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think we can at least agree to go with *either* "expand CJ not K" and "compromise"; the others aren'nt good enough to consider.
# [14:55] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: And do polls to figure out which is better before making a final decision.
# [14:55] * Joins: glazou_ (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [14:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Which is least objectionable.
# [14:55] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:55] * hober expand CJ not K FTW
# [14:57] <TabAtkins> action fantasai and koji to make a poll on which options are most live-withable for universal justification.
# [14:57] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [14:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - And koji to make a poll on which options are most live-withable for universal justification. [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-09-17].
# [14:58] * fantasai thinks we need pictures in this poll for sure
# [14:58] * fantasai also translations...
# [14:59] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: clarify that ko-Han is different from ko-Hangul
# [14:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [14:59] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [14:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Clarify that ko-han is different from ko-hangul [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-09-17].
# [14:59] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Koji raised an issue about *how* are we defining language-specific justification behavior.
# [15:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Our current plan is to not define it, provide a few examples, and defer to a note for examples and guidelines, getting i18n to help out.
# [15:01] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The note would just be prose for things we know that aren't yet written out in Englihs, or pointers to JLReq/etc.
# [15:01] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Or a wiki page, whatever.
# [15:01] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: I think wiki makes more sense than Note - people expect wiki to update.
# [15:02] <TabAtkins> plinss: With new publishing process, we can publish Notes quickly.
# [15:02] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But it still has to go through the WG, while a wiki can let anyone add to it.
# [15:02] <TabAtkins> action fantasai to ask i18n for help in setting up and maintaining the jsutification references
# [15:02] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [15:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-639 - Ask i18n for help in setting up and maintaining the jsutification references [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-09-17].
# [15:03] <fantasai> fantasai^: On the other hand, the w3c wiki is really ugly
# [15:03] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: The important part is that *we* aren't going to be standardizing this.
# [15:04] <TabAtkins> *-_-* new topic
# [15:04] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
# [15:04] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-88
# [15:04] <fantasai> Adding back 'inter-ideograph'
# [15:04] <TabAtkins> koji: Two reasons to put it back:
# [15:05] <TabAtkins> koji: 1) If the default algo is not "expand CJ not K", inter-ideograph will do better, and it's already used in some documents, so we should respect it
# [15:05] <TabAtkins> koji: 2) for traditional korean documents, and we say that korean defaults to inter-word, traditional ones want ideographic spacing.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We can recommend that traditional documents use ko-Han (rather than just ko), so browsers will know to do ideographic spacing.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That will help for any other formatting stuff, when it's more Chinese than Hangul.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> koji: That might work.
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> koji: So we need to wait for the deffault algorithm to be determined.
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Last issue: inter-character.
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We have a "distribute" keyword, and people wonder why it's not "inter-character".
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Answer is that IE did it as "distribute".
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We're thinking to add an alias "inter-character".
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> Bert: Didn't "distribute" have additional side-effects?
# [15:07] <dbaron> (on the last line)
# [15:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Good point. I was thinking we should remove that side-effect.
# [15:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Side effect: if text-justify:distribute, then text-align-last:auto becomes "justify" rather than "start".
# [15:08] <koji> http://www.magical-remix.co.jp/magicalog/archives/2819
# [15:09] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: This is common in Japanese text, where the last line is stretched out.
# [15:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: inter-ideograph would do the same thing for the lines (in the linked examle) except for the "Facts" line.
# [15:10] <TabAtkins> s/Facts/Fax/
# [15:10] <fantasai> text-align: justify; text-align-last: justify; text-justify: distribute;
# [15:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This is a lot to type.
# [15:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So we defined "auto" to mean "if it's distribute, you justify on the last line".
# [15:11] <fantasai> text-align: justify-all; text-justify: distribute;
# [15:11] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But we could remove that. We have a new keyword, because we changed the relationship between text-align and text-align-last.
# [15:11] <Bert> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-3/#text-align-all-property text-align-last property
# [15:12] <Bert> s/last/all/
# [15:12] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So proposal is to remove the special case (making us more IE-compatible), and lean on this new keyword to handle the Japanese case.
# [15:12] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Remove "auto" special-case logic from text-align-last.
# [15:12] <koji> text-align: justify; text-justify: distribute-all-lines;
# [15:13] <TabAtkins> koji: IE5 does a little different syntax.
# [15:13] <TabAtkins> koji: Everything since IE5. MS Word generates this.
# [15:13] <TabAtkins> koji: Do we want to honor this combination as well?
# [15:13] <koji> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms531172(v=vs.85).aspx
# [15:14] <TabAtkins> florian: So this does what we just said "distribute" doesn't do anymore?
# [15:14] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah.
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# [15:17] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Don't think we really need to do it.
# [15:17] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Not saying IE needs to remove anything, just not adding it to CSS.
# [15:19] <TabAtkins> florian: Maybe add an issue/note about us adding this in the future if it turns out to be needed for those markets?
# [15:19] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah.
# [15:20] <TabAtkins> florian: Back to inter-character. Do we want it?
# [15:20] <Bert> ('text-align: justify-all; text-justify: distribute')
# [15:21] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm fine with an alias. Talking with julien earlier, it's easier to have "two keywords that do the same thing" than "two keywords, one of which computes into the other".
# [15:21] <TabAtkins> florian: If there is heavy scripting on this property, we might be more careful about aliasing, but there isn't, so who cares.
# [15:22] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Are we okay with the ambiguity of "character"?
# [15:22] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, it separates the things that authors know as "characters".
# [15:22] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Even if they're "grapheme clusters" or wahtever technically.
# [15:23] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: It's same as letter-spacing?
# [15:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes.
# [15:23] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: What about Thai/etc?
# [15:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Same as letter-spacing.
# [15:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The spec literally says that this increases the used letter-spacing on this line.
# [15:25] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't think people actually know what "character" means.
# [15:27] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Add inter-character.
# [15:28] <TabAtkins> <br type=snacks>
# [15:28] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:30] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
# [15:36] * SimonSapin left some Acid 2 stickers on the table
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# [15:47] * dauwhe Figure 2 with the edge of the hanging baseline identifier is a glyph in a baseline table is constructed from Figure 2 show defaulting to replaced elements, hanging baselines do not encompass all replaced elements font size is no parent as paragraphs are considered for horizontal flow of the text over edge baseline with which the inline element with most alphabetic hanging span class quot; then these font, Gurmukhi syllable ji is that may us
# [15:47] * dauwhe e script property have the line when all inline level elements with that its original position for initial cap.
# [15:50] * TabAtkins SimonSapin left some acid stickers on the table
# [15:53] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [15:53] <fantasai> Topic: Survey of All the Specs
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# [15:53] <fantasai> Bert: Added for 2 reasons.
# [15:53] <fantasai> Bert: Good idea to go over, esp very old ones, let people know what we think of them currently
# [15:54] <fantasai> Bert: Also, new process has new heartbeat requirement
# [15:54] <fantasai> Bert: Old requirement was WG publishes something every 3 months
# [15:54] <fantasai> Bert: New one is every spec gets published at least once every 6 months
# [15:54] <fantasai> hober: If we parked all of them as notes, we wouldn't have to publish them every 6 months
# [15:55] <fantasai> hober: If they die if we don't update, which ones should convert into notes?
# [15:55] <fantasai> dbaron: I'd like to note that the Process doesn't prescribe a punishment for failing the heartbeat requirement
# [15:56] <dbaron> list in http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014
# [15:56] <fantasai> CSS3 Linebox
# [15:56] <fantasai> Replaced by css-inline
# [15:56] <fantasai> Already have a WG resolution to publish an update
# [15:57] <fantasai> CSS Generated and Replaced Content
# [15:57] <fantasai> ^ dauwhe will republish css-inline
# [15:58] <fantasai> Getting stripped down, pull in GCPM generated content bits, republished
# [15:58] <fantasai> by fantasai, dauwhe, and maybe Tab
# [15:58] <fantasai> CSS TV Profile 1.0
# [15:58] <fantasai> Nobody cares
# [15:59] <fantasai> Make it a note
# [15:59] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Turn CSS TV Profile 1.0 into a note.
# [15:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [15:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-640 - Turn css tv profile 1.0 into a note. [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [15:59] <fantasai> CSS Presentation Levels
# [15:59] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Turn CSS Presentation Levels into a Note
# [15:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [15:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-641 - Turn css presentation levels into a note [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:00] <fantasai> SteveZ: In status section say "This is no longer active, and no further work is planned."
# [16:00] <dbaron> s/planned/planned at this time/
# [16:00] <fantasai> plinss: We should wordsmith something.
# [16:00] * fantasai thanks
# [16:00] <fantasai> hober: In a couple other WGs, Notes have been gutted
# [16:00] <fantasai> hober: Like, the status was there, but the contents were removed.
# [16:01] <fantasai> hober: To prevent accidental referencing
# [16:02] <fantasai> fantasai: I totally agree with that for things we want to rescind. But these two should probably keep their contents.
# [16:02] <fantasai> CSS Reader Media Type
# [16:02] <fantasai> Gutted.
# [16:02] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Turn CSS Reader Media Type into a rescinded Note, remove all contents other than status.
# [16:02] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-642 - Turn css reader media type into a rescinded note, remove all contents other than status. [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:03] <fantasai> CSS Hyperlink Presentation Module
# [16:03] <fantasai> discussion of what to do with this
# [16:03] <fantasai> some interest in doing some kind of hyperlinking
# [16:04] <fantasai> but unlikely to be as described here
# [16:04] * shepazu is now known as shepazu_errands
# [16:05] <fantasai> Considering gutting this version, and then resurrecting if necessary with new spec.
# [16:05] <fantasai> Gutted.
# [16:06] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Turn CSS Hyperlinks into a rescinded Note, remove all contents other than status.
# [16:06] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:06] <trackbot> Created ACTION-643 - Turn css hyperlinks into a rescinded note, remove all contents other than status. [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:06] <fantasai> CSS Basic Box Module
# [16:07] <fantasai> Bert: Still want to work on that, think Anton wanted to work on box tree stuff.
# [16:07] <fantasai> fantasai: What's there is severely out of date, and shouldn't be referenced.
# [16:07] <fantasai> hober: Who would work on it?
# [16:07] <fantasai> Bert: Me, but very slowly.
# [16:08] <fantasai> Bert: Editor's draft as-is is not publishable.
# [16:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can we republish the current WD with a warning notice?
# [16:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Should have one of the really obnoxious ones, that's fixed-positioned, and points to CSS2.1 as most referenceable up-to-date version of box model
# [16:09] <fantasai> ACTION Bert: Republish css3-box with obnoxious note pointing to CSS2.1
# [16:09] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:09] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [16:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-644 - Republish css3-box with obnoxious note pointing to css2.1 [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:09] <fantasai> CSS Grid Positioning
# [16:09] <fantasai> This was merged into CSS Grid Layout, seems like TR listing is broken
# [16:10] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Sort out TR listing of css3-grid, which was superseded by css-grid-layout
# [16:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Sort out tr listing of css3-grid, which was superseded by css-grid-layout [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:10] <fantasai> BECSS
# [16:10] <fantasai> ACTION Bert BECSS republished as gutted note
# [16:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-646 - Becss republished as gutted note [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:10] <fantasai> ACTION Bert CSS Marquee republished as gutted note
# [16:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Css marquee republished as gutted note [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:10] <fantasai> CSS Mobile Profile 2.0
# [16:11] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Republish Mobile Profile as (regular) Note
# [16:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Republish mobile profile as (regular) note [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:11] <fantasai> CSS Multi-column Layout
# [16:12] <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css-multicol-1_dev/nightly-unstable/html4/toc.htm
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# [16:13] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we should just leave this one alone. It's in CR. We don't want to rescind it. It's not out-of-date. It needs work, but we have nothing to publish.
# [16:13] <SimonSapin> dbaron: the 6 months clock does not start until it’s republished under the new process
# [16:13] <fantasai> fantasai: So we should leave it alone, with its current old date (which indicates that nobody's looked at it recently)
# [16:13] <fantasai> discussion of tests
# [16:13] <fantasai> florian thinks there's some tests somewhere
# [16:13] <fantasai> No action on this one
# [16:13] <fantasai> CSS Device Adaptation
# [16:14] <fantasai> Rossen: wasn't this where we were going to put device-pixel-ratio?
# [16:14] <fantasai> fantasai: device-pixel-ratio is a MQ
# [16:14] <fantasai> Rossen: Yeah but the zoom stuff, etc.
# [16:14] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
# [16:15] <fantasai> Rossen: We have lots of different zooms, highDPI, etc. This was the spec to host all of this.
# [16:15] <fantasai> Rossen: Perhaps the editors want to ...?
# [16:15] <dbaron> heartbeat requirement is in http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#three-month-rule
# [16:15] <fantasai> ACTION zcorpan Bug Rune about CSS Device Adaptation spec, what to do about it
# [16:15] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:15] <trackbot> Error finding 'zcorpan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [16:16] <fantasai> CSS Template Layout
# [16:16] <fantasai> Bert: I want to work on it, but you won't let me
# [16:16] <fantasai> florian: I'm interested in working on CSS Device Adaptation... but I don't have a plan for it
# [16:16] <zcorpan> ACTION spieters Bug Rune about CSS Device Adaptation spec, what to do about it
# [16:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-649 - Bug rune about css device adaptation spec, what to do about it [on Simon Pieters - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:16] <fantasai> Bert: Last time I asked to publish a WD, WG wouldn't let me
# [16:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Because gratuitously different from Grid
# [16:17] <fantasai> Bert: Some overlap,
# [16:17] <dbaron> glazou: is any implementor interested in implementing this?
# [16:18] <dbaron> fantasai: I think the parts that duplicate grid should be removed from this draft. Bert has been exploring how to integrate grid, ..., ..., and ...
# [16:18] <dbaron> peterl: ... page template work. I think this should be a note, actively worked on.
# [16:18] <dbaron> peterl: At some point we may rejigger other things and put into this spec.
# [16:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm good with more exploration, with this as a Note
# [16:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: CSS Template Module becomes actively-developed Note
# [16:19] <fantasai> CSS3 UI
# [16:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Tantek's not doing anything... was planning on taking it over.
# [16:19] <fantasai> [discussion of apperaance]
# [16:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You can implement -webkit-appearance
# [16:20] <fantasai> gregwhitworth: we already did
# [16:20] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add TabAtkins as editor of css3-ui
# [16:20] <fantasai> We'll republish once there's something reasonably to republish
# [16:21] <fantasai> CSS Positioned Layout
# [16:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: who's editing?
# [16:21] <fantasai> Rossen. ArronEi left MSFT
# [16:22] <fantasai> SteveZ: Ask about Arron's involvement? Should move to previous editor?
# [16:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Or might have more time to edit as Invited Expert than as MSFT employee
# [16:22] <fantasai> CSS Speech
# [16:22] <fantasai> plinss: Should update the status section and republish
# [16:23] <fantasai> SteveZ: No work has gone on, still waiting for adequate test suite, say how many months, and that's an adequate status update
# [16:23] * shepazu_errands is now known as shepazu
# [16:23] <fantasai> glazou_: Let me ping dweck
# [16:23] <fantasai> fantasai: We should just leave it in CR, not republish as note
# [16:24] <fantasai> fantasai: We're still recommending that people implement it
# [16:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Just don't have impls yet
# [16:24] <fantasai> CSS Image Values Level 3
# [16:24] <fantasai> fantasai: We need to make edits and republish anyway
# [16:24] <fantasai> fantasai and Tab to edit and publish
# [16:24] <fantasai> Fullscreen
# [16:24] <fantasai> SimonSapin: There's a WHATWG spec
# [16:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Propose gutted note with reference to WHATWG spec
# [16:25] <fantasai> hober: It's a joint publication with WebApps, so we have to ask them
# [16:25] <fantasai> ACTION hober Deal with Fullscreen
# [16:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Deal with fullscreen [on Edward O'Connor - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:26] <fantasai> RESOLVED: CSSWG thinks Fullscreen should move to a Note as described above
# [16:26] <fantasai> CSS Images Level 4
# [16:27] <fantasai> keep it as WD, no republication until something to republish
# [16:27] <fantasai> CSS Sizing Module
# [16:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We need to review/update/republish
# [16:27] <fantasai> fantasai and TabAtkins actively editing, will be handled later
# [16:27] <fantasai> CSS Animations
# [16:27] <fantasai> republish as WD
# [16:28] * shepazu is now known as shepazu_errands
# [16:28] <fantasai> when sylvaing is ready
# [16:28] <fantasai> active under sylvaing
# [16:29] <fantasai> should publish next 3 months
# [16:29] <fantasai> CSS Paged Media 3
# [16:29] <fantasai> RESOLVED: add dauwhe as editor
# [16:30] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: I’m not gonna work on it this year
# [16:30] <fantasai> fantasai and dauwhe to incorporate GCPM bits, overall update/outstanding edits, republish
# [16:30] <fantasai> CSS Conditional Rules
# [16:30] <fantasai> dbaron: In CR
# [16:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Trying to figure out how much of a test suite we have right now
# [16:30] <fantasai> dbaron: I think it has a pretty decent number of tests.. 87 tests
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# [16:30] <fantasai> dbaron: not a huge spec
# [16:30] <fantasai> plinss: A lot of those are mult-test script tests
# [16:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Could use more tests, but has a decent suite
# [16:30] <fantasai> glazou_: It's implemented anyway
# [16:31] <fantasai> plinss: I think his point is the test suite isn't quite ready for PR
# [16:31] <fantasai> dbaron: If someone sits down for a day and looks at coverage, fills in gaps, should be ready for PR
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# [16:31] <fantasai> plinss: Can we action someone to do that?
# [16:31] <fantasai> dbaron: I can look into it
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# [16:31] <fantasai> CSS Overflow Module
# [16:32] <fantasai> plinss: Talked about working on that parg of paged media etc.
# [16:32] <fantasai> glazou_: 18 months since FPWD
# [16:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Nothing to publish right now, but acttive
# [16:32] <fantasai> Selectors Level 4
# [16:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Want to republish soon, will be working on that
# [16:32] <fantasai> Box Alignment Module L3
# [16:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We intend to republish soon
# [16:33] <fantasai> fantasai: We just have to finish up baseline alignment
# [16:33] <fantasai> CSS Exclusions
# [16:33] <fantasai> Rossen: Keeping
# [16:33] <fantasai> Rossen: At the very least, need to convert to bikeshed
# [16:33] <fantasai> florian: 230 tests from Opera on multicol, btw
# [16:33] <fantasai> CSS Values and Units
# [16:33] <fantasai> In CR
# [16:33] <fantasai> keep
# [16:33] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we need to republish that one, too
# [16:34] <fantasai> fantasai: There's some wordsmithing needed on <custom-ident>, rest of DoC is green
# [16:34] <fantasai> Text Decoration 3
# [16:34] <fantasai> CR
# [16:34] <fantasai> fantasai: No issues filed
# [16:34] <fantasai> keep it
# [16:34] <fantasai> DOMMATRIX
# [16:35] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Republish DOMMATRIX as gutted note, replaced by Geometry Interfaces
# [16:35] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [16:35] <trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Republish dommatrix as gutted note, replaced by geometry interfaces [on Bert Bos - due 2014-09-17].
# [16:35] <fantasai> CSS Fonts
# [16:35] <fantasai> chrisl: jdaggett resurfaced recently
# [16:35] <fantasai> In CR. No worries
# [16:35] <fantasai> [going quickly through the rest, since recent]
# [16:37] <fantasai> fantasai: We need to republish scoping, have outstanding edits from last F2F
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# [16:37] <fantasai> glazou_: Exhausted the agenda
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# [16:37] <sgalineau> meant to ask to republish a css-animations WD as soon as meeting resolutions are edited; looks like this is covered.
# [16:37] <fantasai> dbaron: Why is the Encoding spec in our WG???
# [16:38] <fantasai> Bert: WG that published it asked for the css keyword to be added to the metadata
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# [18:03] <Zakim> plinss, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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# [20:32] <krit> So there was no resolution to publish CSS Transforms? Or did I just miss it on the backlog?
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# [21:32] <liam> I didn't see it there either, krit, not sure
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# Session Close: Thu Sep 11 00:00:00 2014

The end :)