/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 01 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  15. # [05:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: k! Will try to remember.
  16. # [05:24] <TabAtkins> If you don't, Bikeshed'll complain eventually, so it's not a huge deal. I just had to fix them before I could commit today.
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  65. # [12:52] <alystair> who do I blame for inset box-shadows not rendering on image elements?
  66. # [12:53] <alystair> I see a discussion back in July 2010
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  98. # [16:30] <mezod> hi there, which is the help channel for this network?
  99. # [16:31] <SimonSapin> Hi mezod. Depends, help with what?
  100. # [16:31] <mezod> general irc help
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  102. # [16:32] <SimonSapin> do you mean help on some other subject given through IRC, or help on using IRC itself?
  103. # [16:33] <mezod> help on w3.org IRC network
  104. # [16:33] <SimonSapin> try #sysreq
  105. # [16:35] <mezod> ok thanks
  106. # [16:37] <mezod> so this is like the only popular channel around here right?
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  109. # [16:50] <SimonSapin> This is the only I’m in, I don’t know about others.
  110. # [16:50] <SimonSapin> And even this one is mostly used during teleconferences and meetings
  111. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> #testing !
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  118. # [17:07] <mezod> SimonSapin oh ok, thanks
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  128. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-css-irc
  129. # [17:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  130. # [17:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
  131. # [17:29] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  132. # [17:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  133. # [17:29] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0001.html'
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  139. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  140. # [17:55] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  141. # [17:57] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  142. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  143. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P29
  144. # [17:57] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P29 is me
  145. # [17:57] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  146. # [17:57] <Zakim> +astearns
  147. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
  148. # [17:58] * Parts: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
  149. # [17:58] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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  152. # [17:59] <Zakim> +florian
  153. # [17:59] <Zakim> +glazou
  154. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P31
  155. # [18:00] * Joins: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak)
  156. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  157. # [18:00] <murakami> zakim, ??P31 is me
  158. # [18:00] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
  159. # [18:00] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  160. # [18:01] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  161. # [18:01] * Joins: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak)
  162. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P18
  163. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
  164. # [18:01] <adenilson> Zakim: ?P18 should be me.
  165. # [18:02] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  166. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  167. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dbaron
  168. # [18:02] <alex_antennahouse> I think I'm IPcaller
  169. # [18:02] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
  170. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aabb - is perhaps vivien
  171. # [18:02] <alex_antennahouse> mic turned off should be fine
  172. # [18:02] <Zakim> +krit
  173. # [18:03] * Bert zakim, aabb is me
  174. # [18:03] * Zakim sorry, Bert, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  175. # [18:03] * Bert zakim, vivien? is me
  176. # [18:03] * Zakim sorry, Bert, I do not recognize a party named 'vivien?'
  177. # [18:03] <dael> Zakim, IPcaller is alex_antennahouse
  178. # [18:03] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
  179. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, you’re as painful as always:)
  180. # [18:03] <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, glazou
  181. # [18:03] * sylvaing__ is now known as sgalineau
  182. # [18:03] <adenilson> Zakim, P18? is me.
  183. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named 'P18?'
  184. # [18:03] * Joins: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak)
  185. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  186. # [18:03] * Bert hmm
  187. # [18:03] * Bert zakim, vivien is me
  188. # [18:03] * Zakim +Bert; got it
  189. # [18:03] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  190. # [18:03] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  191. # [18:03] <dael> Zakim, ??P18 is adenilson
  192. # [18:03] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
  193. # [18:03] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P18 is me.
  194. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P18 is adenilson
  195. # [18:03] <Zakim> I already had ??P18 as adenilson, adenilson
  196. # [18:03] <Zakim> I already had ??P18 as adenilson, glazou
  197. # [18:04] <antonp> (I'm currently on IRC only; will join the call in a few mins)
  198. # [18:04] <glazou> ok antonp
  199. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  200. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSapin, astearns, dael, florian, glazou, murakami, dauwhe, SGalineau, adenilson, +1.631.398.aaaa, alex_antennahouse, dbaron, Bert, krit, gregwhitworth
  201. # [18:04] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  202. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  203. # [18:04] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  204. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  205. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.917.934.aacc
  206. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Let's start
  207. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
  208. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  209. # [18:05] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  210. # [18:05] <dael> ??: I'd like to pub another WD of Regions
  211. # [18:05] * Joins: mikesherov (~uid42630@public.cloak)
  212. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: We can do that as the first item
  213. # [18:06] <dael> s/??/astearns
  214. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P8
  215. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: Any others?
  216. # [18:06] <dael> Topic: Publish WD of Regions
  217. # [18:06] <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-regions/#changes_from_Feb_18_2014
  218. # [18:06] <zcorpan> Zakim: P8 is zcorpan
  219. # [18:06] <florian> Zakim, who is noisy?
  220. # [18:06] <dael> astearns: The only thing changed is the introduction. Here's the change list
  221. # [18:06] <Zakim> florian, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: murakami (4%), astearns (74%)
  222. # [18:07] <dael> astearns: It's been over 6 months since last pub so I'd like to go again under new process
  223. # [18:07] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p8 is zcorpan
  224. # [18:07] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  225. # [18:07] <dael> Rossen_: I thought we were doing that at last F2F for multiple drafts
  226. # [18:07] <dael> astearns: I hadn't seen that in minutes so I assumed we were out of time
  227. # [18:07] <Bert> (Intro looks good, so I'm OK with publishing.)
  228. # [18:07] <dael> Rossen_: In the meantime, we can ask for objections in case we didn't resolve at the F2F
  229. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: Any objections?
  230. # [18:07] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish new WD for Regions
  231. # [18:08] * dauwhe very nice intro!
  232. # [18:08] <dael> Topic: TPAC
  233. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: It's not far away and we haven't started colelcting items.
  234. # [18:08] * Rossen_ didn't see Regions on the minutes either...
  235. # [18:08] * astearns dauwhe Bert thanks
  236. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: I don't think we have a wiki page even and so we need that and to collect agenda items. Anything else about tpac?
  237. # [18:09] <dael> dauwhe: dpub does want a joint meeting with CSS. It's tricky with them being on the thursday and firday. Is that for admin list?
  238. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: Yes, probably
  239. # [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Question is do we want to meet with them or do we send a deligation
  240. # [18:09] <dael> dauwhe: I propsed they'd meet us on Monday, but they want Thursday or Fri
  241. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: So what time do they need and to discuss what?
  242. # [18:09] <dael> dauwhe: box tree api and pagination issue. Prob an hour at least
  243. # [18:09] * sgalineau will be celebrating the non-Shenzhen venue all week
  244. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: Okay
  245. # [18:10] <dael> florian: Is wed dedicated topics or can we use it for this?
  246. # [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins_: Wednesday isn't a meeting day.
  247. # [18:10] <dael> florian: Perhaps as a part of the un-conference.
  248. # [18:10] <dael> dauwhe: I think for this topic there are people we'd need but not everyone. I also don't know everyone's plans.
  249. # [18:11] <dael> fantasai: Why don't you make a list of the people you need and we can look at schedules
  250. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.412.235.aadd
  251. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Also about TPAC, we got a message that 2015 will be last week of October is Seppo (sp?) in Japan
  252. # [18:11] <Bert> Don't forget to register! Price goes up on Oct 8. (Most of us have, but maybe a handful hasn't: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/ )
  253. # [18:11] <dael> Topic: Overwriting important style
  254. # [18:11] <florian> s/Seppo/Sapporo/
  255. # [18:11] <dael> Rossen_: WE collected a bunch of data and tried to look throught he results.
  256. # [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: What we see currently...Out of almost 600 million hits we found with all kinds of important rules, few of them would match the pattern, like in 100 which suggests a tiny ratio
  257. # [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: Of the content we could scan
  258. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: I think the total number of pages was a few millions
  259. # [18:13] <Rossen_> http://api.solvemedia.com/papi/_puzzle.js
  260. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: I can send you a page that didn't meet the criteria, but we couldn't figure out the behavior, though the content suggested the pattern would occur
  261. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: Inside that JS file they're over-riding
  262. # [18:13] <dbaron> I created a stub page for https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2014
  263. # [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: So, given the low count of content that might be exibiting that pattern, I think we're okay to change the behavior and monitor content issues.
  264. # [18:14] <dael> ??: As I said, Firefox has that behavior and it's okay.
  265. # [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: I'm okay witht he behavior as proposed.
  266. # [18:14] <dael> glazou: Any objections ot the change?
  267. # [18:14] <florian> s/??/florian/
  268. # [18:15] <dael> RESOLVED: Change the behavior of the property
  269. # [18:15] <florian> s/and it's okay/and no compat issue has been reported/
  270. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: I suggest we make some blog posts on w3.org and post on your personal blogs to make sure those few people affected know about it.
  271. # [18:15] <dael> Topic: Empty string value <media-query> or not
  272. # [18:15] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/0427.html
  273. # [18:15] * krit could the resolution be more explicit please?
  274. # [18:16] <dael> florian: We have the behaior change in MQ 4 which isn't intentional so I think it's okay to revet. MW couldn't do an emply string but now can.
  275. # [18:16] <Zakim> +antonp
  276. # [18:16] <glazou> s/RESOLVED: Change the behavior of the property/RESOLVED: change the behaviour of setProperty() according to last week’s proposal following Rossen’s approval
  277. # [18:16] <dael> florian: Having the MQ be the empty string used to not be okay, but the current spec suggests it evaluates as true, so we should revert
  278. # [18:16] * krit thanks glazou
  279. # [18:16] <Zakim> + +44.203.549.aaee
  280. # [18:16] <plinss> zakim, aaee is me
  281. # [18:16] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  282. # [18:17] <glazou> hi plinss :-)
  283. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins_: I think I agree, I think I accidently put a ? in there. But you can't have a comma with nothing around it ecause that's disallowed in the grammar right now. They must be omitted
  284. # [18:17] <dael> florian: But if they're suparating the empty string it's not amb?
  285. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins_: It's not. You must omit a comma if it's not sep to things
  286. # [18:17] * glazou hears a lot of white noise...
  287. # [18:17] <dael> florian: So the current spec if correct but is odd.
  288. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins_: We should remove the ?
  289. # [18:17] <dael> fantasai: I think it's super unclear.
  290. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins_: I'm stressing we cannot have commas with nothing between
  291. # [18:18] <dael> ???: There's no grammar for MQ, it's an algo
  292. # [18:18] <astearns> s/???/zcorpan
  293. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins_: That's right b/c it has to handle regection.
  294. # [18:18] <fantasai> s/I think it's super unclear. /I think it's best if we are explicit rather than relying on weird implicit behavior in a spec somewhere else./
  295. # [18:18] <fantasai> s/weird/unconventional/
  296. # [18:18] <dael> florian: So I'd like two res. Remove the ? and make it explicit that the MQ list can be an empty list.
  297. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins_: That should be def by the algo.
  298. # [18:19] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-4/#mq-list "An empty media query list evaluates to true."
  299. # [18:19] <dael> florian: It's implicitly by the algo, but there's nothing that forbids you from an empty list, but it doesn't explicitly say it can be empty
  300. # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins_: I'm fine witha note that it can be an empty list
  301. # [18:19] <dael> florian: Does anyone like the behavor?
  302. # [18:19] <dael> zcorpan: There is some behavior, but I don't mind changing that
  303. # [18:19] <dael> florian: The place were we say how to evaluate it says you can evaluate tur
  304. # [18:20] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0445.html
  305. # [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: Allow emptry string in <media-query>
  306. # [18:20] <dael> Topic: animation-fill-mode
  307. # [18:20] <dael> sylvaing: Basic question is what happens when it's updated by scripts
  308. # [18:20] <florian> s/says you can evaluate tur/says it evaluate to true, but there is no explicit mention in the section about how to parse it/
  309. # [18:20] <dael> sylvaing: We answered part of the question when you update animation prop while it's running.
  310. # [18:21] <dael> sylvaing: The other question was let's say you have...your animation is running through delay and you have a backwards fill and then you update your fill mode, we never really said anything about if fill mode is affected. I assume it should be but I wanted to check
  311. # [18:22] <dbaron> I agree it should just update.
  312. # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins_: Yeah, that should be updated and have app. affect. You would stop backwards filling and not have an affect until the delay run out.
  313. # [18:22] <dael> sylvaing: I couldn't think of a situation it would be awkward.
  314. # [18:22] <dael> sylvaing: No obj?
  315. # [18:22] <dael> RESOLVED: animation-fill-mode applies whenever it's updated
  316. # [18:22] <dael> Topic: csson-view behavior of matchMedia
  317. # [18:22] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/0354.html
  318. # [18:22] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  319. # [18:23] <dael> glazou: This came from the ML, it wasn't disucssed so I picked it up
  320. # [18:23] <dael> sylvaing: Order of events is something I plan to define. It will hook into request animation frame machinery when there's something
  321. # [18:23] <dael> sylvaing: The add frames is defined in HTML that they should have a 0,0 viewport
  322. # [18:23] <zcorpan> "If a Document is in a nested browsing context, it is expected to be positioned and sized to fit inside the content box of its browsing context container. If a browsing context is not being rendered, it is expected to have a viewport with zero width and zero height."
  323. # [18:23] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  324. # [18:23] <dael> s/sylvaing/zcorpan
  325. # [18:23] <zcorpan> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#the-page
  326. # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins_: Is there any other queries that matter here? I don't htink so. I think the HTML statement answers the second question
  327. # [18:24] <Zakim> -fantasai
  328. # [18:24] <dael> dbaron: You said you were planning to hook into request animation machinery?
  329. # [18:24] <dael> zcorpan: Yes. That's what we want to do for recite events.
  330. # [18:24] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  331. # [18:24] <dael> dbaron: Something needs to account for flushing as well. If something causes a layout flush it should be able to have an outside animation fram affect.
  332. # [18:25] <dael> zcorpan: Good point.
  333. # [18:25] <dael> glazou: So zcorpan do you want to take an action to reply to Boris?
  334. # [18:25] * sgalineau got violently booted
  335. # [18:25] * tantek is lurking on IRC
  336. # [18:25] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  337. # [18:25] <Zakim> +fantasai
  338. # [18:25] <dael> action zcorpan to reply to Boris' e-mail
  339. # [18:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  340. # [18:25] <trackbot> Error finding 'zcorpan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  341. # [18:25] <dbaron> s/should be able to have an outside animation fram affect/could have an effect outside of requestAnimationFrame/
  342. # [18:25] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  343. # [18:25] <zcorpan> action spieters to reply to Boris' e-mail
  344. # [18:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  345. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-655 - Reply to boris' e-mail [on Simon Pieters - due 2014-10-08].
  346. # [18:25] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SGalineau (57%), +1.631.398.aaaa (4%), TabAtkins (43%), dael (6%)
  347. # [18:25] <gregwhitworth> lol @ tab
  348. # [18:25] <dael> Topic: Review documents move to note of gutted note
  349. # [18:26] * zcorpan would be nice to have an alias for tracker
  350. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Bert sent a message. Anything to say about it?
  351. # [18:26] <Zakim> -fantasai
  352. # [18:26] <dael> krit: One comment about the dommatrix to make it as an early version of geometry
  353. # [18:26] * Joins: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak)
  354. # [18:26] <Zakim> +fantasai
  355. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Anything else to say about the documents themselves or the publications?
  356. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins_: I haven't fully reviewed, but expect it'll be fine.
  357. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: These are the docs we decided to put aside.
  358. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: That's all I have for today. Is there anything else to discuss?
  359. # [18:27] <dael> Many: 30 more minutes is great!
  360. # [18:27] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  361. # [18:27] <alex_antennahouse> goodbye
  362. # [18:27] <Zakim> -fantasai
  363. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dbaron
  364. # [18:27] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  365. # [18:27] <Zakim> - +1.917.934.aacc
  366. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: Thank you very much!
  367. # [18:27] <Zakim> -krit
  368. # [18:27] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
  369. # [18:27] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  370. # [18:27] <Zakim> -adenilson
  371. # [18:27] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  372. # [18:27] <Zakim> -Bert
  373. # [18:27] <Zakim> - +1.412.235.aadd
  374. # [18:27] <Zakim> -glazou
  375. # [18:27] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  376. # [18:27] <Zakim> -antonp
  377. # [18:27] <Zakim> -plinss
  378. # [18:27] <Zakim> -florian
  379. # [18:27] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  380. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  381. # [18:27] <Zakim> -astearns
  382. # [18:27] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  383. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dael
  384. # [18:27] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
  385. # [18:27] <Zakim> -murakami
  386. # [18:27] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  387. # [18:27] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaaa
  388. # [18:28] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  389. # [18:28] <Zakim> Attendees were SimonSapin, astearns, dael, florian, glazou, dauwhe, murakami, SGalineau, +1.631.398.aaaa, dbaron, +33.4.92.38.aabb, krit, alex_antennahouse, Bert, gregwhitworth,
  390. # [18:28] <Zakim> ... adenilson, Rossen_, +1.917.934.aacc, fantasai, TabAtkins, zcorpan, +1.412.235.aadd, antonp, +44.203.549.aaee, plinss
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  399. # [18:48] <alystair> could someone explain what just happened? o_O
  400. # [18:49] <alystair> I'm new here
  401. # [18:49] <SimonSapin> Hi alystair. The working group just had a telephone conference, using IRC to take minutes
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  403. # [18:52] <alystair> oh that's smart.
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  409. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> alystair: Missed a golden opportunity to say "I'm 12 and what is this?"
  410. # [19:01] <alystair> I've grown out of that a while ago... I rather not disturb people molding the future of the web
  411. # [19:03] <tantek> There aren't that many parts of CSS that are molding - most of it is fairly fresh thanks to TabAtkins and others.
  412. # [19:05] <sgalineau> if you want the smell of mold, we have snapshots
  413. # [19:05] <alystair> hah
  414. # [19:06] <alystair> I'm just a lowly digital nomad who was looking for who to blame this morning for inset box-shadow not showing up on image elements... then I found an OOOOLD mailing list thread and feel bad that it's not a simple fix.
  415. # [19:07] * dauwhe_ we do have some mouldy docs, but we're working on them... http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-linebox/
  416. # [19:08] <tantek> sgalineau: who needs snapshots when you have w3.org/TR/ ?
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  418. # [19:08] <tantek> or perhaps I repeat myself
  419. # [19:08] <sgalineau> tantek: that's beyond mold. there lay the TeRmites.
  420. # [19:09] <tantek> and RoT
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  476. # [21:47] <astearns> dauwhe_: if you have an opinion on opt-in/out for grid line snapping, please respond to my 'one property or more?' thread
  477. # [21:47] <dauwhe_> astearns: will do.
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The end :)