/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-10-29 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 29 00:00:00 2014
2. # Session Ident: #css
3. # [00:00] <dael> rbyers: We've got a test page here. If I switch to Safari you can see it's not as sync. And on a slow phone you can really tell. dino proposal does that
4. # [00:00] <dael> rbyers: We want to get more complex. We call this hidey bars. The top controls shrink and hide as you scroll. As you scroll up the header and footer hides and if you scroll down the reappear.
5. # [00:00] <rbyers> http://jsbin.com/zosevo/3
6. # [00:01] <dael> rbyers: I think dino prop would work for this, but I think when you take your finger off the device you want it to snap.
7. # [00:01] <dael> rbyers: Here's an example (irc)
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10. # [00:01] <dael> rbyers: We can do this if we listen for touch events, but we don't have anytinhg for whent he finger is off the touchpad. Maybe we can extend the prop for active scrolling and momentum scrolling afterwards.
11. # [00:02] <dael> ???: You can consider non-novel triggers and use new triggers to start that.
12. # [00:02] <dael> rbyers: Then it gets more complex. Lots of native apps use pull to refresh. It's scroll linked, but you have to change the scroll somehow. We talked about that as scroll customization.
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14. # [00:03] <dael> rbyers: We want to change the notion of scroll top and support some kind of customization for overscroll. We want to change the relationship between the input and output. In this case we have a function that applies friction.
15. # [00:04] <dael> rbyers: That's what the native apps do. On mobile Twitter did this without anyone asking them to because mobile is rich enough. I'm worried about defining CSS properties 6 years later. I think we need to be able to explain in lower level primitives so app developers don't have to wait.
16. # [00:04] <dael> rbyers: There's a few other things that make it complicated. One of the biggest is changing the relationship of how scrolling decides what to target.
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18. # [00:05] <dael> rbyers: If I pull down inside the iframe it'll work as expected, but if I pull down it will move with isn't the expectation. This is hard to solve because you can't communication between iframes withs cript.
19. # [00:05] <dael> rbyers: We need something that acts as the broker between things getting inputs and things that will act.
20. # [00:06] <dael> rbyers: You need to let pull to refresh to either talk to it's decendants or ancestors.
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22. # [00:07] <dael> rbyers: That's almost the most complex. What are the low level primitives, you realize other common effects are also explainable, for ex something like the scroll effect in google images, but there could be. If I fling it, should it match the native phsyics of the browser.
23. # [00:07] <dael> rbyers: Maybe I want to scroll vertically but also have browsers top hiding and showing and right now we can't do that on the web
24. # [00:07] <dael> rbyers: I think that mostly captures the scenarios. I think we'd be able to explain overflow scroll in terms of primitives and customize it. and how it handles deltas distributions.
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27. # [00:08] <dael> rbyers: What's the simpliest low level thing we could add that lets us solve these schenarios and als snap points.
28. # [00:08] <dael> ???: I don't understand explain in terms of primitives. Overflow scroll can happen in a different process.
29. # [00:08] <hober> s/???/weinig/
30. # [00:08] <dael> rbyers: before scroll offers a composition API to mediate and it relies on some kind of composition.
31. # [00:09] <hober> s/???/weinig/
32. # [00:09] * hober there was an earlier sam comment too, not sure if the double substitution fixes that
33. # [00:09] <dael> rbyers: What I care about is the composition API. That could be JS on the main thread or a worker, maybe someone wants to come up with that in a declaritive language. Those are impl details, but if we're going to explain the scrolling we've got we need to explain the thread.
34. # [00:10] <dael> rbyers: On chrome we've done work where a highly responcive main thread where on that limted set we'd be okay losing our threaded scrolling, but I think you're saying we should aim high.
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36. # [00:10] <dael> weinig: My memory is that it was historically fired but it was changed to be not that because it caused bad scrolling. The before scroll reintroduces that with a diff name, but not a different web.
37. # [00:11] <dael> rbyers: It lets you opt in.
38. # [00:11] <dael> rbyers: The a11y web says we need to put the developers in the driver seat. I think it's relevent where you can opt into having more control. I don't htink every website shouldg et ride of threaded scrolling.
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40. # [00:11] <dael> dbaron: You referenced your prop, but have you talked about it?
41. # [00:12] <dael> rbyers: I think it's more useful to talk about the thigns driving it. The details are irrelevent based on these high levels. If we're having CSS APIs going through time, that's one thing. Then how would we suppoprt pull to refresh and the problems with it
42. # [00:13] <dael> rbyers: before scroll says there should be some API that takes as imput how much the user has tried to scroll and lets the app decide how that should be distributed among elements.
43. # [00:13] <dael> bkardell_: I think an intersection is to have a script face timline that explains main thread scrolling, but also user written timelines that only apply to elements.
44. # [00:13] <astearns> s/bkardell_/birtles/
45. # [00:13] <dael> rbyers: You need more than an animation timeline. This doesn't address compisition prob
46. # [00:14] <dael> birtles: I think it does. Like timing functions
47. # [00:14] <dael> rbyers: dino prop lets you control animation objects, but scroll offset isn't animationable.
48. # [00:14] <dael> birtles: Okay.
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50. # [00:15] <dael> florian: It looks like rather then having content you overscroll, you can make the content expand for a sim effect, but I'm not sure it's good enough.
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54. # [00:16] <dael> rbyers: Yeah, then at the boundry you're switching between scrolling and transform and the challenge is that you have to deal with switching the physics over. It gets trickier from that. We started from lets drive on a low level and we tried to aim for a perfect bar. We were using osmething like Twitter on iOS as perfect.
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56. # [00:17] <dael> rbyers: The other point is what Sam was bringing up. If we hink apps should have control over that we can either let them do script on the main thread, we could empower script to run UI effects on a different threat, or we come up with some non JS language like if CSS could be rich enough. I doubt that it can be captured fully in a declaritive language, but maybe you could.
57. # [00:17] <dael> rbyers: We could also let Ian talk a bit about expalining scrolling threaded animations.
58. # [00:17] <dael> plinss: I think there's buy in to lets define the primitives. In general it's a sound principal.
59. # [00:18] <dael> plinss: It's something we should drive for. We can argue how it's exposed.
60. # [00:18] <dael> hober: I think this isn't the place to have the arguement.
61. # [00:18] <dael> plinss: If you have a request to see the set of primitives, what are they.
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63. # [00:19] <dael> rbyers: We're not far along the impl, but I already know the obj to before scroll are about the high level objects. I know tht giveing up threaded scrolling for this power isn't desireable.
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65. # [00:19] <dael> weinig: Even though it was novel, the rubberbanding and friction wasn't actually novel. The primitives depend on what you're interested in. So keeping them consistent might inform your primitives.
66. # [00:20] <dael> rbyers: I think there's a good middle ground. I'd be interested in saying something like the platform defines overflow, but you can customize. We need primitives like keep this window open when the user is scrolling.
67. # [00:20] <dael> weinig: What are the primitives?
68. # [00:20] <dael> rbyers: 2 parts.
69. # [00:20] <rbyers> scroll-delay: https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1aOQRw76C0enLBd0mCG_-IM6bso7DxXwvqTiRWgNdTn8/edit
70. # [00:20] <dael> rbyers: There's threads on each of these, but let me paste.
71. # [00:21] <dael> rbyers: This allows browsers to develop an API. We've changed over time what scroll should sync with and that makes it clear for us there is no prefect answer. In IE it's not with start of touch.
72. # [00:22] <dael> rbyers: In Chrome scrolling is always with start of touch, but not all touch moves. You can let author opt into the IE behavior. Scrolling is sync with wheel events. It's not clear that's right in all cases.
73. # [00:22] <dael> rbyers: I don't know if it's a major problem with scroll, but it's huge for wheel events. Maybe pages should be able to opt out and maybe we should be able to say they scroll freely.
74. # [00:23] <dael> rbyers: There's 3 poss things to block on. Start, touch, and wheel. scroll event it doesn't block on
75. # [00:23] <dael> rbyers: You could says i want my sync events with my scroll. That's the jist of scroll delay.
76. # [00:23] <dael> ???: The use case for disabling the delay for start touch
77. # [00:24] <astearns> s/???/jrossi/
78. # [00:24] <dael> ...: It's performance. In IE we don't have this block dependancy. The use case for making an even like scroll become blocking is these custom effects. You're choosing between fast and customizable
79. # [00:24] <dael> jrossi: This makes use think more along the lines like animations. It would le tyou get some of these effects. It's poss to build a demo of a lot of these that hits 60 frames, but I'm not sure that's reasonable for current webdev
80. # [00:24] <dael> rbyers: That's existing.
81. # [00:25] <dael> jrossi: If we can find a way like animation triggers that let you create the UI without that's goodness.
82. # [00:25] <dael> rbyers: When you say a lot of these, it's only the first where scroll would handle. It's not rich enough for the triggers or the hidey-bars. I'm just worried that every new scenario will take a few years to make a new CSS prop.
83. # [00:26] <dael> jrossi: I'm not sure we move the web forward.
84. # [00:27] <dael> jrossi: It's too easy to fall into the these are mutually exclisive. WE don't have a pragmatic way for them to play with animation triggers. So saying it needs to be a JS API because that's the only way to experiment
85. # [00:27] <dael> ??: Why is that odd?
86. # [00:27] <hober> s/??/slightlyoff/
87. # [00:27] <dael> jrossi: Becuase you can't show animation triggers doesn't make this a bad idea.
88. # [00:27] <dael> slightlyoff: I think it's proof this should go first. If you want to avoid a world where nativ apps are beating you to the punch...You need to give dev flexability.
89. # [00:28] <dael> weinig: That's not prving the point
90. # [00:28] <dael> slightlyoff: You've got the example of the apple website where they do thigns that are slow to do what they want and that's bad, but you don't have another way for them to behave.
91. # [00:28] <dael> slightlyoff: Dev today have a whole matrix about taking control so they use libraries.
92. # [00:28] <dael> jrossi: Even the libraries do it poorly
93. # [00:29] <dael> slightlyoff: There isn't a uniform model for doing it.
94. # [00:29] <dael> jrossi: They're doing it in a variety of places.
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96. # [00:29] <dael> slightlyoff: But if you're looking at the various ways people are working, that there is no way for them to take control is the problem.
97. # [00:29] <rbyers> s/jrossi/samweinig
98. # [00:29] <dael> dino: You're saying because there's no standard to hook into feature,s that's what makes it slow?
99. # [00:30] <dael> slightlyoff: It makes it slower.
100. # [00:30] <dael> slightlyoff: The tech they've adopted may be mal-adapted for the new ways you create.
101. # [00:30] <dael> slightlyoff: You have evidence of this in front of you
102. # [00:31] <dael> rbyers: So if the primary obj is you don't want opeple to choose between more likely performance and control, the remaining choices are high level APIs or a primitive that explains the threaded effects.
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104. # [00:32] <dael> rbyers: What we're hitting is we want a primitive that explains scrolling, but not all of scrolling. The alternative is to say if that's an important fast past and primitives are important, we need a primitive that expains that. We need customization that explains it in an extensible way.
105. # [00:32] * dael fantasai or TabAtkins can you swing scribe for a bit? I need a break.
106. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
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108. # [00:33] * dael thanks!
109. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> volick: This example [on screen] is half-baked, but it's to illustrate a point.
110. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> volick: If we could find a way of exposing the knobs that threads turn, and expose it to JS, then next time one of these situations shows up, authors can do things directly.
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113. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> volick: [tries to get the demo working on the projector]
114. # [00:35] <adenilson> the demo gods must be angry...
115. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> volick: [demo shows some things spinning jankily, others spinning smoothly]
116. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> volick: For the smooth things I'm twiddling the knobs in a special worker-like thing; the janky ones are on the main thread.
117. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> volick: [shows example code]
118. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> volick: What I've done is bind opaque identifiers to these knobs...
119. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> volick: Let me show you main-thread code first.
120. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> volick: I find elements, bind some animated proeprties. This is declarative, so the UA can figure out what you're doing.
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122. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> volick: Then these get pushed to the UI Worker, which is a special worker that lives on the compositinig thread.
123. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> volick: I pass it the tokens for the animated properties, get back an "animation context" that lets me adjust these properties.
124. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Since it's on the compositor, when you ask for the current scroll position/etc, you get the exact correct value, not something that might be delayed relative to what's on screen.
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126. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> volick: Of course, this does give the possibility of people doing badly.
127. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> dino: So when you set scalars like that (in the UI worker), you're not setting properties directly...?
128. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> dino: You set transform because it's easy to do on compositor. What about background-color?
129. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> volick: There's a subset of elements.
130. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> dino: If you set transform there, are you actually setting the transform style on the element?
131. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> volick: Yes, but not synchronously. It's plumbed back.
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133. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> dbaron: So this requires standardizing the set of things that happen on the compositor thread.
134. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> volick: It's not necessarily true that the UI worker must run on the compositor thread.
135. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> dbaron: What if one of these workers animates transform and background-position? Chrome animates both on the compositor thread, Firefox animates transform only, bg-position on main thread.
136. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> volick: Intent is that you identify the properties that are definitely on compositor thread; you'd add judiciously.
137. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'm more confortable if we agree here on standardizing that list here, rather than just starting with Chrome's set.
138. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> volick: Sure.
139. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> dino: We sometimes composite based on different state in the page.
140. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> dino: Might not always be consistent.
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144. # [00:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I suspect it's possible to come up wtih a thing up front where its eq to coming up with a JS. In that case we wouldn't have to worry about a combined list and it would run acceptable in anyting that doesn't composit. It would make perf testing hard.
145. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> weinig: That sound slike it would make it harder to perf test your site.
146. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> ???: I think this has the same risk as dean's proposal, in that the input to the animation is limited to what you define as the input to your compositor.
147. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> ???: You'll be able to use more operations on the input, so it's a bit more powerful than a pure declarative solution...
148. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Ian's API does need more than just scroll offset, but it's about more than just inputs; it's about how you process them.
149. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> volick: If you'd still like the browser to be the broker for composing these things, yu could make a variant of beforescroll that is done on the compositor.
150. # [00:45] <astearns> s/???/benjaminp/
151. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> volick: Byn forcing hte author to express their intent very clearly, it lets the UA prepare in ways that you can't do with rAF.
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153. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> smfr: Do you have a sense that the stuff you can change in UIWorker is enough to do hideybars/etc?
154. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> smfr: I think that font-size changes, for example, might be desirable in scroll things.
155. # [00:46] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
156. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> smfr: I think we'll end up with people doing very complex things in their UI worker that they could have done in CSS.
157. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> rbyers: I think UI Worker isn't trying to solve every problem. You can just animate normally.
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159. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> rbyers: The scenarios we're tyring to copy today, though, are fast on native apps for a reason - they don't do font-size changes, etc. They take advantage of GPU rasterization, etc.
160. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> rbyers: We think all the scenarios we've talked aobut can usually be done without rasterization.
161. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> dino: So in your example where the text got smaller, it was a transform, not a font-size?
162. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Yup.
163. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> dino: So I think there's a nice path from your proposal giving complete control, while the CSS one does less powerful things, but makes it even simpler.
164. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> dino: I like the idea of investigating this UI Worker.
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166. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: I'm curious to see if there's a way to allow the other properties to be modified, but you lose guarantees on how synchronized they are.
167. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: Even some of the parallaxing effects, they aren't too noticeable if they're not perfectly synchronized.
168. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: I'd like to see more detail on yoru pull-to-refresh.
169. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: Want to see a way to do an off-thread "drag this element around the page", or an element with zooming control.
170. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Yeah, touch position is a likely input.
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172. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: I think you often want to plug back into native behavior, too - native inertia, native rubber-band effect, etc.
173. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Taht's a good segue into beforescroll.
174. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Note that this isn't about opposed ideas. scroll-delay lets you do anything on the main thread, with sync. UI Worker lets you do some things on the scroll thread, with sync.
175. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> rbyers: beforescroll lets you just intercept scrolls - you get an event when there's a "scroll intention" from the user.
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177. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Then you can tell the browser to execute a scroll natively.
178. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> ???: I'd like to see some evolution of the UI Worker proposal, based on the examples you brought up.
179. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> ???: Is this new thing going to have arbitrary dom access, for example? Or just some limited information?
180. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> volick: I have some half-baked ideas on that.
181. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Yeah. There's an incremental path here.
182. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> rbyers: Even without the advanced scenarios like pull-to-refresh, we can do a lot of good. We don't need to block.
183. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> volick: Also useful to talk about the palette of knobs you might be able to turn.
184. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> volick: If you can raster fast, maybe you can do colors or font-size.
185. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> volick: Worth chatting about that.
186. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> birtles: Maybe define a transform function taht takes a scroll input and outputs a scroll output?
187. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> birtles: You can run that on either thread as you need to. You can use the same architecture as the animations.
188. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> birtles: Then I think there's a path between dino's proposal and this.
189. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> birtles: As we find effects that are commonly used, we can mash those up and prepackage those as we need to.
190. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> volick: I'll have to think a bit more on that.
191. # [00:55] <MaRakow> also want to make sure my apprehension is noted in the minutes -- I'm interested but want more details
192. # [00:55] * dael TabAtkins I can take it back, thank you.
193. # [00:55] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
194. # [00:55] <dael> rbyers: someone asked for the details of beforescroll before. Is that worthwile.
195. # [00:56] <dael> dbaron: I think tis' useful to go into the detailes before it's too late to change..
196. # [00:56] <dael> ??: Can you summarize?
197. # [00:56] <astearns> s/??/smfr/
198. # [00:56] <dael> rbyers: Let me project. Here's the link.
199. # [00:56] <rbyers> beforescroll proposal: https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1oEVWIVdMZ2OlVZMvcZZ3IgaT6RAUNSKAzpzb9AlVeLw/edit#heading=h.kd0gtwwz5bf9
200. # [00:57] <dael> rbyers: Right now this is in terms of DOM event, but the high level concepts are most interesting.
201. # [00:57] <dael> rbyers: Let me get the diagram. We looked at our scrolling architecture.
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203. # [00:58] <dael> rbyers: You can debate on details, but our chromium archetecture and abstract the key boxes where the dev has say.
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205. # [00:58] <dael> rbyers: There's 3 input stacks and the boxes that are red are extensibility points where apps can plug in.
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207. # [00:59] <dael> rbyers: Out of that we think conspetually, internally we have gesture events that drive the scroll. It's the scroll intention.
208. # [00:59] <dael> rbyers: Then tehre's a phase where we take the objects and pass them up through the containing blocks. That maps to native UI apps.
209. # [01:00] <dael> rbyers: The idea was to give a hook that's like overriding the native view. That could be a DOM that fires beforescroll event. I could re impl overflow scroll by saying I have a div that listens to beforescroll events.
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211. # [01:01] <dael> rbyers: The key thing is they have deltas and a method with how much the want to consume. It has a delta y of 50 and I scroll veritically so I call that and say I want to consume them. So beforescroll would bubble up and it would be seen by the outer scroller that would apply it's delta. It comes down to details of diaginal scrolling.
212. # [01:01] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
213. # [01:01] <dael> rbyers: We need to support where a user is dragging diag.
214. # [01:01] <dael> rbyers: There's some that expose missing pieces like velocity of scroll.
215. # [01:01] <dael> rbyers: Some kind of info about the phase of the scroll yo're in
216. # [01:01] <dael> MaRakow: Is control delta used anywhere else?
217. # [01:02] <dael> rbyers: Anyone using before scroll. Some of these just need sync, but anything using beforescroll.
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222. # [01:02] <dael> rbyers: We havea version similar to pull to refrest where there's an overscroll and the image zooms out a bit. So in that case yu'd need scroll customization. Also just the image search case.
223. # [01:02] * Quits: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
224. # [01:03] <dael> rbyers: In that case you're replacing the scroll yourself. You've just got a reg div which wouldn't normally controlt he scroll. When we see the user trys to control on top we use a transform.
225. # [01:03] <dael> rbyers: But if they get to the beginning and scroll more we need it to bubble out. Any time you need to cusomize you have to invoke consume delta.
226. # [01:03] <dael> MaRakow: It seems you're trying to emulate elastic
227. # [01:04] <dael> rbyers: Not just that. If you think of a normal scroller, there's some code that says the user wants to scroll, how much can I scroll by? In other methods that's exposed to the developer.
228. # [01:04] <dael> rbyers: That's not just about getting past the limits. There's a difference by asking to scroll and what you can scroll by
229. # [01:04] <dael> dbaron: So pull to refrest, do you agree to scroll more than normal allowed?
230. # [01:05] <dael> rbyers: It's less b/c friction.
231. # [01:05] <dael> dbaron: You're doing it by setting transforms. You have initial scroll and have content above that top. Do you do that by placing content above or play with transforms?
232. # [01:05] <dael> rbyers: Either.
233. # [01:05] <dael> dbaron: So you can scroll to a negative offset. Right now our natives croller doesn't support that. But it's reasonable to have that.
234. # [01:06] <dael> dino: For rubberbanding you'd consume all the scroll deltas, inverse translate in the non-scroll, how do the next scroll events relate to the change? If you move the element?
235. # [01:06] <dbaron> the last dbaron: line was rbyers:
236. # [01:06] <dael> rbyers: deltas are the inputs. The deltas come from the input.
237. # [01:07] <dael> florian: So you've scrolled past the limit and then you generated scroll events?
238. # [01:07] <dael> rbyers: A lot of this is handled as a before scroll event. The browser has an overflow scroll div and it should be indistinguisable from one from JS.
239. # [01:07] <dael> rbyers: There might be security concerns. There might need to be a trusted bit, but that's ortoginal.
240. # [01:08] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
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242. # [01:08] <dael> rbyers: So we tryied to recast our funky scrolling, such as the rails for scroll or overscroll effect at the end, we tried to desc those in terms of beforescoll. If we're right about design we could swap impl and we can take scrolling from the rendering engine core and re impl all the effects we've got. We'd do demos to prove to ourselves it's possible.
243. # [01:09] <dael> rbyers: I think that's the briefest high level overview I can give.
244. # [01:09] <dael> plinss: We have jdaggett calling back in again soon. Anything else on this?
245. # [01:09] <dael> dbaron: What's next?
246. # [01:09] <dael> rbyers: The group wants more details about UI worker. I think we need to get those in shape and send.
247. # [01:09] <dael> dbaron: I think you've sent some stuff on beforescroll.
248. # [01:10] <dael> rbyers: And scroll delay. One challange for us is if we feel we can afford to wait for UI worker to support this.
249. # [01:10] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
250. # [01:10] <dael> rbyers: WE feel some urgency, so it's poss that Chrome may procceed with our main thread idea
251. # [01:10] * Quits: dino (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
252. # [01:10] <dael> dbaron: I'm not the authoritative person at Mozilla for this, but I think Rok sounded positive.
253. # [01:11] <dael> dbaron: I don't know.
254. # [01:11] <dael> dbaron: Some depends on the state of other browsers. I don't think it's useful end result to only have two browsers impl something.
255. # [01:11] <dael> dbaron: Because webdev can't use it
256. # [01:11] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
257. # [01:11] <dael> slightlyoff: That's the position they're in now.
258. # [01:12] <dael> rbyers: A bunch of the effects take advantage of this across different browsers.
259. # [01:12] <dael> rbyers: I guess I would agree with slightlyoff that there might be value in allowing apps to do this
260. # [01:12] <jdaggett> s/Rok/roc/
261. # [01:12] <dael> dino: There's value if browsers do things awesome.
262. # [01:12] * Joins: iank (~iank@public.cloak)
263. # [01:12] <dael> rbyers: There's also value in the browser doing something horrible and depricating it.
264. # [01:13] <dael> slightlyoff: They (web dev) were at least able to ship to users with that browsers.
265. # [01:13] <dael> bkardell_: If you're cleaver you can ship to all browsers.
266. # [01:13] <dael> rbyers: There's one sight that relies on Chrome, but on Safari you get a bar on the top that says install our native app.
267. # [01:14] <dael> rbyers: I don't think it's bad to allow those choices.
268. # [01:14] <dael> dbaron: Where i was going is it may be worth it to get these in a draft somewhere. It's worth talking about. I don't want to see it dropped because you thought no one liked it. We should follow up.
269. # [01:14] <dael> plinss: Okay. Anyone in touch with jdaggett?
270. # [01:15] <dbaron> Zakim, code?
271. # [01:15] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbaron
272. # [01:15] <dael> dbaron: He's on IRC
273. # [01:15] <jdaggett> here
274. # [01:15] <dbaron> jdaggett, ^
275. # [01:15] <jdaggett> :P
276. # [01:15] <dbaron> Zakim, who is here?
277. # [01:15] <Zakim> On the phone I see SantaBarbara, kgilbert
278. # [01:15] <Zakim> On IRC I see iank, smfr, jdaggett, hiroto_, bobtung, gregwhitworth, florian, shans__, tantek, Mike_Miller, notbenjamin, stakagi_, glazou, Cyril, kurosawa, bradk__, jrossi, dbaron,
279. # [01:15] <Zakim> ... Rossen_, ArronEi_, nsakai2, nick, MaRakow, andreyr, xiaoqian, patrick_h_lauke, myakura, Zakim, adenilson, shepazu, dael, zcorpan_, kip, dauwhe, KeshavP_, glenn, koji, jet,
280. # [01:15] <jdaggett> ok, dialing in now...
281. # [01:15] <Zakim> ... bkardell_, yamamoto, babatakao, rbyers, dholbert, darktears, paul___irish, kangil, wilhelm, rego, hiroshi2, dwim, sgalineau, abucur___, amtiskaw______, birtles, mihnea_____,
282. # [01:15] <Zakim> ... ato
283. # [01:15] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
284. # [01:16] <jdaggett> "the conference is restricted at this time"
285. # [01:16] <dbaron> Zakim, disconnect SantaBarbara
286. # [01:16] <Zakim> SantaBarbara is being disconnected
287. # [01:16] <Zakim> -SantaBarbara
288. # [01:16] <dbaron> Zakim, room for 3?
289. # [01:16] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
290. # [01:16] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; conference Team_(css)00:16Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0116Z
291. # [01:16] <dael> plinss: Let's get back to John, I guess.
292. # [01:16] <dbaron> Zakim, call SantaBarbara
293. # [01:16] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; the call is being made
294. # [01:16] <Zakim> +SantaBarbara
295. # [01:17] <jdaggett> ok, in 26631 now...
296. # [01:17] <jdaggett> lonely here...
297. # [01:17] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
298. # [01:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see SantaBarbara, kgilbert
299. # [01:17] <dbaron> jdaggett, did you misdial?
300. # [01:17] * kip is kgilbert
301. # [01:17] <dbaron> jdaggett, try again?
302. # [01:17] <jdaggett> kk
303. # [01:17] <dael> plinss: We have snap points.
304. # [01:17] <dael> fantasai: jdaggett Is here, just need to connect.
305. # [01:18] <dael> plinss: Other conference ends in 5 min, so it's have Zakim time out.
306. # [01:18] <fantasai> s/it's/let's/
307. # [01:18] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
308. # [01:18] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
309. # [01:18] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
310. # [01:18] <jdaggett> "you are the first participant in this conf"
311. # [01:18] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
312. # [01:18] <jdaggett> argh...
313. # [01:19] * Quits: shans__ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
314. # [01:19] <jdaggett> which conf are you in?!?
315. # [01:19] <dbaron> jdaggett, we're going to try again in 5 mins
316. # [01:19] <dael> plinss: I don't think we have a choice. We can let Zakim time out and then get jdaggett.
317. # [01:19] <dael> Topic: Snap Points.
318. # [01:19] <Zakim> -SantaBarbara
319. # [01:19] <jdaggett> plinss: ok
320. # [01:19] <adenilson> is it just me or is it a bit cold in here?
321. # [01:19] <dael> MaRakow: I updated the spec, roc had some responces, I wanted to see if there was concern about my edits.
322. # [01:19] <dael> MaRakow: If not I'd liek a FPWD.
323. # [01:20] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-snappoints/
324. # [01:20] * Quits: nick (~nick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
325. # [01:20] <dael> MaRakow: For anyone that haven't looked at the edits, I've removed most of the requests for new functionality that doesn't exist in a browser.
326. # [01:20] <Zakim> -kgilbert
327. # [01:20] <Zakim> Team_(css)22:25Z has ended
328. # [01:20] <Zakim> Attendees were SantaBarbara, +1.778.785.aaaa, kgilbert
329. # [01:20] <dael> MaRakow: I need feedback for name of snap-coordinate and snap-destination.
330. # [01:20] <dbaron> Zakim, code?
331. # [01:20] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbaron
332. # [01:20] <dael> MaRakow: Those are the main topics.
333. # [01:20] <dael> MaRakow: I wanted feedback.
334. # [01:20] <Zakim> Team_(css)00:16Z has now started
335. # [01:21] <Zakim> +kgilbert
336. # [01:21] <dael> smfr: I haven't caught up, but were there responces to hober e-mails?
337. # [01:21] <dael> MaRakow: I don't think I have anything about that. I'd say no because our impl doesn't include implicit steps.
338. # [01:21] <dael> smfr: So there's content you can' scroll to without snap points?
339. # [01:21] <dael> MaRakow: Which is intentional.
340. # [01:21] <dbaron> Zakim, call SantaBarbara
341. # [01:21] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; the call is being made
342. # [01:21] <Zakim> +SantaBarbara
343. # [01:22] <dael> smfr: We have things were at the end you want the last element on the right edge and the scroll element is stuck. I'm not sure if that use case works.
344. # [01:22] <dbaron> jdaggett, try dialing again
345. # [01:22] <dael> MaRakow: Could merge element and interval snap lists. You can merge an interval and element snap points.
346. # [01:22] <dael> smfr: We'd prefer repeat with an extra place go to the end.
347. # [01:22] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
348. # [01:22] <jdaggett> ipcaller is me
349. # [01:23] * dbaron Zakim, [IPcaller] is jdaggett
350. # [01:23] * Zakim +jdaggett; got it
351. # [01:23] <dael> smfr: Two other areas that are under spec. One area was how do you transition between scrolling gesture and animating to a snap point.
352. # [01:23] * dbaron Zakim, mute jdaggett
353. # [01:23] * Zakim jdaggett should now be muted
354. # [01:23] <dael> smfr: That can get weird if you have to go back.
355. # [01:23] <dael> MaRakow: That was intentionally underspec. The dynmaic point is on a snap point. That's partly for when you don't have an animation and also to allow freedom.
356. # [01:23] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute jdaggett (muting locally)
357. # [01:23] <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute jdaggett (muting locally)', jdaggett
358. # [01:23] <dael> smfr: So like if you're going fast and want to skip the nearest point.
359. # [01:23] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute jdaggett
360. # [01:23] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
361. # [01:24] <dael> smfr: I don't know if we need that specified.
362. # [01:24] <dael> smfr: Also exactly how proximity works.
363. # [01:24] <dael> MaRakow: Again somewhat one purpose. I think the heuristics are best for UA. It's going to be soft and should break anything. I think it's best unspecified.
364. # [01:24] <dael> smfr: Maybe errors that you want to avoid you can leave a note in spec.
365. # [01:25] <dael> smfr: Final thing. If the user isn't scrolling but the snap points change, do you adjust?
366. # [01:25] <dael> MaRakow: I added that. Manditory that you must update to land on a snap point, optional for prox.
367. # [01:25] <dael> fantasai: One this I want to make sure is handled well is varying screen sizes. I think someof your examples would work if it's smaller than screen, but not if bigger.
368. # [01:26] <dael> fantasai: If you have a mand snap point in the middle, but you're on a smaller screen than picture, you can never see the whole thing
369. # [01:26] <dael> MaRakow: I think that's where it would be inappropriate to madatde scroll offset.
370. # [01:26] <dael> fantasai: You want to mandate it lands on each picture.
371. # [01:26] <dael> MaRakow: You want the user to scroll to the end and not snap.
372. # [01:27] <dael> fantasai: People design for one screen size and don't think about smaller. Whatever we're designing here if they do't think about it they get something appropriate.
373. # [01:27] <dael> MaRakow: My take is that you still don't want to use manditory.
374. # [01:27] <dael> fantasai: The person designed stopping on each picture. They didn't think about my small screen. We enabled something that degrades badly. Degrading well is better.
375. # [01:28] <dael> MaRakow: I don't know if there's a solution to that.
376. # [01:28] <dael> MaRakow: It's part of responcive design is you need to be aware of small screen.
377. # [01:28] <dael> fantasai: I'll review the draft, but in general we should consider that.
378. # [01:28] <dael> MaRakow: The notes I took were adding implicit snap points on start/end of the scroller, maybe as a repeat function option
379. # [01:29] <dael> MaRakow: Specing the ability to travel past multiple snap points with interital
380. # [01:29] <dael> MaRakow: And adding something about screen size.
381. # [01:29] <dael> MaRakow: So can we do FPWD
382. # [01:29] <dael> RESOLVED: publish FPWD of snap points
383. # [01:29] <dael> plinss: Anything else on that?
384. # [01:29] <dael> Topic: Text
385. # [01:29] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
386. # [01:29] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
387. # [01:30] <dael> fantasai: Let's start with justification.
388. # [01:30] <dael> fantasai: I'd like jdaggett comments
389. # [01:30] <dael> fantasai: Text justify auto when the content is untagged. How do we deal with conflicting Korean and Japaese?
390. # [01:30] <dael> jdaggett: Better language tags.
391. # [01:30] <dael> fantasai: And for the default?
392. # [01:31] <dael> jdaggett: So you don't know what the language is?
393. # [01:31] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
394. # [01:31] <dael> jdaggett: It's not idea because JApaense content in an English browser won't show the right way, but it's justification. I'm not sure how critical it'll be.
395. # [01:31] <dael> fantasai: In general we try and not use locale.
396. # [01:31] <dael> jdaggett: It's not optimal, but it's want impl do today.
397. # [01:32] <dael> fantasai: So if I have Mozilla with untagged Japanese in a Japaense location it uses CJK spaceing?
398. # [01:32] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
399. # [01:32] <dael> jdaggett: That would depend. I know Japaense font selection we do sniffing of lcoal
400. # [01:32] <dael> fantasai: Not for justification, I don't think. Given that we don't do it we shouldn't start.
401. # [01:33] <dael> jdaggett: There's a lot of things, ie line breaking, where it's untagged and we use locale.
402. # [01:33] <dael> jdaggett: I'm not sure. Auto is a catch all. What needs to be defined?
403. # [01:33] <dael> fantasai: We were asked for an ex of justification algo that shows off here's what you could do if you need justification and have not additional information.
404. # [01:33] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
405. # [01:33] <dael> fantasai: We want taht same for most lang.
406. # [01:33] * Joins: bert_ (bbos@public.cloak)
407. # [01:34] <dael> fantasai: Korean wants to expand spaces, but not between Han. Japaense wants not space expanding, but wants at Han.
408. # [01:34] * Parts: patrick_h_lauke (~redux@public.cloak) (patrick_h_lauke)
409. # [01:34] <dael> jdaggett: Is that the case for auto? Are you talking justify: auto?
410. # [01:34] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
411. # [01:34] <dael> fantasai: Text-justify: distribute
412. # [01:34] <dael> s/distribute/auto
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414. # [01:35] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
415. # [01:35] <dael> fantasai: If they're using distribute they get spacing everywhere. If they spec lang tag they get the right thing. the case with problems is it's untagged and auto. Somebrowsers don't do any spacing in Japanese. Others are like let's justify between Han and Hanna and that looks weird for Korean because hopefully no one will notice since they don't use a lot of Han.
416. # [01:36] <dael> fantasai: Those are the two things impl. Another option is 2 level of priority. Expand at spaces if they get too wide and then expand betwee CJ and K.
417. # [01:36] <dael> fantasai: Those are the three options. I can put them all in the spec, or jsut one of them. I'd like to close on this today so we can go forward.
418. # [01:37] <dael> stevez: jdaggett sniffing makes sense. If you have Hangul you should do your Hangul thing. That would get us away from suboptimal solution.
419. # [01:37] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
420. # [01:37] <dael> fantasai: I don't want to sniff locale. That gets web designers to think teir webpage looks awesome.
421. # [01:37] <dael> jdaggett: This is sort of a none-issue. We can infur from the script.
422. # [01:38] <dael> fantasai: We haven't been doing that. If impl want to do sniffing, I can put that in the spec.
423. # [01:38] <dael> stevez: None of the three answers are good. They're all bad. There's a poss of being good in all cases if you sniff.
424. # [01:38] <dael> florian: How much do you sniff? t's not picking the wrong one, bt it's being unstable.
425. # [01:38] * Quits: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
426. # [01:39] <dael> stevez: These are doc without lang tag. If you want it to work, lang tag. I understand you're saying people won't lang tag if it looks good.
427. # [01:39] <dael> jdaggett: I don't understand why a normative algo is important.
428. # [01:39] <dael> florian: but you'd get where my website looks fine and then you switch and it breaks.
429. # [01:39] <dael> fantasai: We have a non-normative algo that we're supposed to put in. Normatively we only have a handful of req.
430. # [01:39] * Joins: smfr_ (~smfr@public.cloak)
431. # [01:40] <dael> jdaggett: For uato I'd suggest that if the lang isn't see, see if it can be inferred from the script. Just put that as a suggestion
432. # [01:40] <dael> fantasai: It's up to impl. The feedback I was given earlier were we don't want to sniff. If people feel differently now that it's 10 years later, I can do it. But tat needs to be consensus.
433. # [01:40] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
434. # [01:41] * Quits: bradk__ (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Be back later ...")
435. # [01:41] <dael> stevez: Last discussion is there is not algo that works well for both Korean and Japanese without a lang tag. We can pick one that doesn't work for a language and we end up in a bad situation where we icked a language, or we can do the simple sniffing thing.
436. # [01:41] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
437. # [01:41] <dael> stevez: In the cases we care about, you'll see soon what language. If it's all Kanji, you can do a good job.
438. # [01:42] <dael> florian: Sniffing gets you unstable. You see Chinese and get more content and you see diversity. Nothing is great so we have to accept some suckage.
439. # [01:42] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
440. # [01:42] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
441. # [01:42] * smfr_ is now known as smfr
442. # [01:42] <dael> fantasai: I what to hear from dbaron because he's wanted more details on auto
443. # [01:42] * Joins: shepazutu (schepers@public.cloak)
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445. # [01:43] <dael> dbaron: The kind of details I wanted auto to ave are the kind that avoid saying hey browsers impl you do the research on the right behavior for all these languages.
446. # [01:43] <dael> dbaron: I think if, If you know the right behavior for tagged and if you want to say the behavior for untagged isn't defined, that better than not defining the correct behavior. You're defining where is the thing you should do for each language.
447. # [01:43] <dael> fantasai: We can't put that normaively in thie doc.
448. # [01:44] <dael> stevez: You have what's normative for tagged.
449. # [01:44] <dael> fantasai: We don't.
450. # [01:44] <dael> stevez: that was the wiki?
451. # [01:44] * Joins: florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
452. # [01:44] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. What's normative is for auto justification. [sites spec]
453. # [01:45] <zcorpan_> s/sites/cites/
454. # [01:45] <dael> fantasai: There's some discussion about if Chinese and Japanese, Kana Kani andHangul should be the same within a line or diff and we've had some feedback from Japan that they want differently.
455. # [01:45] <dael> fantasai: So we need a "what works"
456. # [01:45] <dael> fantasai: We can add a link to a doc to what we think is right for this small handful of script and good luck for the rst.
457. # [01:45] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
458. # [01:46] * tantek wonders how late CSSWG f2f is going to meet today.
459. # [01:46] <dael> r12a: Yo have Japanese, we're working on Chinese and Mongolian. We can get more. I wouldn't have thought you needed to spec all Japaense layout in a CSS spec.
460. # [01:46] * smfr tantek until the end of the giants game
461. # [01:46] <dael> dbaron: Or refer to it. I don't think it's reasonable to expect original research on hundreds of lang. the requirements should be in or linked to.
462. # [01:46] <dael> fantasai: I think we don'thave requirements for lots of languages.
463. # [01:47] <dael> dbaron: So it's not in this level of the spec.
464. # [01:47] <dael> fantasai: It should all be in a note.
465. # [01:47] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
466. # [01:47] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
467. # [01:47] <dael> stevez: That was the purpose of the wiki to allow contribution without us vetting.
468. # [01:47] <dael> fantasai: If you're happy for us to have what we know about this handful of lang, if that's sufficient I'm happy to put that in the spec instead of an ex of a default.
469. # [01:48] <dael> dbaron: What I wasn't okay with that is that I felt what sed to be there was saying you had to do original research I'm fine with that.
470. # [01:48] <dael> stevez: Do we have a location we can point to.
471. # [01:48] <dael> fantasai: I think we can do that through i18n WG.
472. # [01:48] * glazou has to go, see you later
473. # [01:48] <dael> stevez: Your, r12a =, doesn't specify that. I thnk it points to JL rec. The generic site.
474. # [01:48] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
475. # [01:49] <dael> r12a: That points to JL rec.
476. # [01:49] <dael> r12a: We can talk about it.
477. # [01:49] * Quits: hiroto_ (~hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
478. # [01:49] <dael> stevez: Maybe as a joint project. So I'd object to saying they're req or normative, tey're information that would allow people to do a reasonable job. The question is how do you do interop testing
479. # [01:49] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks
480. # [01:50] <dael> stevez: Some people would have practitioners that wuld allow them to do better. The JL are one set, but not the only set. That's why Adobe tabled a bunch of the things like spacing and line breaking
481. # [01:50] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks#Alignment_and_justification
482. # [01:50] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. We have some normativ req so what we can test are what I read out. We can test if it's just if one op is there.
483. # [01:50] * Bert wonders if the temperature is going to continue going down until we decide to leave the room...
484. # [01:51] <dael> fantasai: You can test that that first character ended up on ths end, that's the mose we can do.
485. # [01:51] <dael> fantasai: If that works for people I'm hppy o not put in a suggested algo.
486. # [01:51] <dael> florian: If we end up not defining that's fine. We shoucareful about opening the door. People who worked on encodings found content sniffing was not a good idea. The situation is a different.
487. # [01:52] <dael> stevez: It is different b/c rules are tied to script. The amount of sniffing to hit 90% is not much. You may get errors and you say please language tag it. I would propose tht you add that browsers may snift hte script to suggest which rules to use.
488. # [01:53] <dael> r12a: The other possibility is that we allow it to be broken if you don't spec the lang on purpose.
489. # [01:53] <dael> florian: The problem is legacy content. For new things that's a great idea, but there's legacy out there.
490. # [01:53] <dael> dbaron: That's what we did for hyphination. We said auto doesn't work without lang spec.
491. # [01:53] <dael> fantasai: Mozilla just does spacing.
492. # [01:54] * dauwhe html:not([lang]) { display: none }
493. # [01:54] <dael> dbaron: It's conditional if it's language Chinese or Japanese which comes from local, tag, or inferred from content. If our best guess language when we have to come up with a language comes to Japanese or Chinese, we use different rules.
494. # [01:54] <dael> fantasai: There was explicit lang, char set, and locale.
495. # [01:55] <dael> dbaron: The http header falls in there.
496. # [01:55] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
497. # [01:55] <jdaggett> plus accept-lang http header
498. # [01:55] * zcorpan_ dauwhe poor xml:lang
499. # [01:55] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
500. # [01:55] <dael> stevez: Maybe the right thing to say is UA impl may use what information it has about the language in determiniing the spacing rules.
501. # [01:55] <jdaggett> wildly different?!? cmon...
502. # [01:55] <dael> fantasai: The one that that will be tricky if you'll get diff results depending on what the UA thought the lang was.
503. # [01:55] <dael> stevez: Than I agree with florian that we're trying to encourage lang tag.
504. # [01:56] * dauwhe zcorpan: in our ebooks we use both, due to a11y guidelines :)
505. # [01:56] <dael> fantasai: But if it's user generated or only works on the one page they checked, some will fail, but you're like oh it looks great here.
506. # [01:56] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to not do content or locale sniffing. Those are most likely to cause accidental breakage.
507. # [01:57] * Joins: iank (~iank@public.cloak)
508. # [01:57] <dael> florian: What would be the correct way to deal with you're writing a web mail client in Japaense and get a plain text Korean message?
509. # [01:57] <dael> fantasai: You don't justify plain text e-mails
510. # [01:58] <dael> r12a: It's only computable with Japanese if using Hanga characters. Korean is only confusable with the Hanga character and they're few and imbedded into Hangul in that ex. It's more difficult with titles in Japaese, but that's a limited amount of text.
511. # [01:58] <dael> stevez: And those aren't typically not justified.
512. # [01:58] <dael> fantasai: They might be.
513. # [01:58] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
514. # [01:58] <dael> plinss: We're about out of time.
515. # [01:58] * Joins: florian1 (~Florian@public.cloak)
516. # [01:58] <dael> plinss: Are we finding common ground?
517. # [01:59] <dael> fantasai: I think we don't need an ex algo in the spec.
518. # [01:59] <dael> dbaron: It would be nice to not lose your research.
519. # [01:59] <r12a> s/computable/confusable/
520. # [01:59] <dael> stevez: We should create the wiki with your information.
521. # [01:59] <dael> florian: And it would be nice to turn that into a note
522. # [01:59] <dael> stevez: It's informative.
523. # [01:59] <dael> bert: But a date on it.
524. # [02:01] <dael> murakami: I have a question. I think most people will be happy if it's not specified and Hangul is spacing justification. And others (Japaense and Chinese roots) are intercharacter
525. # [02:01] <dael> fantasai: It's awk for Korean with Hana in it because you have spaces in the middle of the word. So imagine if you had spacing around each side of Kanji.
526. # [02:01] <Bert> s/florian/bert/
527. # [02:02] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
528. # [02:02] <dael> murakami: The lang attr should be spec. If it's not specified it optimizes the justification and it cannot be expected.
529. # [02:02] <dael> florian1: We're allowing but not requiring.
530. # [02:02] <dael> fantasai: Question is do we put it in the spec. I can put algo examples in the spec.
531. # [02:03] <dael> fantasai: They're all acceptable options. I can put them into spec if it's useful.
532. # [02:03] <dael> florian1: To be clear I don't think we have consensus on what you're not allowed to do. It's not obvious that we're agreeing.
533. # [02:03] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure of compat impact.
534. # [02:03] <dael> dbaron: I suspect that location would be bad for Japanese content.
535. # [02:04] <dael> fantasai: Does Microsoft sniff?
536. # [02:04] <dael> ArronEi_: I don't believe so.
537. # [02:04] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
538. # [02:04] <dael> Rossen_: I don't believe so. I have to check.
539. # [02:04] * Joins: murakami_ (~murakami@public.cloak)
540. # [02:04] <dael> fantasai: Lets do some testing. If IE does not justify Japanese when it's untagged using the local to do that, we might say to do tht.
541. # [02:04] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
542. # [02:04] <dael> fantasai: We can come back in a few weeks after all the edits have been made.
543. # [02:04] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
544. # [02:05] <dael> fantasai: one complication with backcompat is some browsers honor text-justify: interideograph. WE dropped it but docs that spec that will expect to be justified. It will be justified in Microsoft because the support and Mozilla because the sniffing.
545. # [02:05] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
546. # [02:06] <dael> ??: A character, sniffing for local. In an exteme case, the text exits, how do you sniff that and what justification algo should be applied?
547. # [02:06] <bobtung> s/??/hiroshi2
548. # [02:06] <dael> fantasai: So we were suggesting sniffing local, so I have american flag, so it says because my computer I will jsutify like English. You don't look on text, but rely on operating system.
549. # [02:07] <dael> florian1: That's another option.
550. # [02:07] <dael> stevez: If you can't guess what it is by looking at character you go back to the default set of rules because no matter what it won't look good. From where I'm sitting the goal would be do a large portion of the existing archive in a way that won't surpirse the users of that archive.
551. # [02:08] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
552. # [02:08] <dael> dbaron: Why are we specifing this stuff?
553. # [02:08] <dael> florian1: Are there things we can agree to not use, tt's what I talked about.
554. # [02:08] <dael> ??: I'm not sure I agree to use lang tag. The likelyhood a template uses lang=en is pretty high.
555. # [02:09] <dael> fantasai: Justification isn't disruptive if you don't do it correctly.
556. # [02:09] <dael> ??: So it's fine for justification, not determining accruate lang.
557. # [02:09] <dael> florian1: It's hard to get anythign better.
558. # [02:09] <dael> fantasai: It also incetivises doing it correctly
559. # [02:10] <dael> r12a: And people tag correctly a lot more. That's not the case anymore. But the other arguement is true where if it's notworking, you figure out why and change the lang.
560. # [02:10] <dael> zcorpan_: In HTML there's a rule to det the language and it first looks at lang. Then there's a step that looks at content language. Step 3 is HTTP header.
561. # [02:11] <dael> dbaron: It feels like we'e expanding this discussion instead of solving our problem.
562. # [02:11] <dael> stevez: So we drop trying to resolve allowing or forbiddig and just go witht e text dbaron can live with and so can fantasai. That resolves for now and there's work to do, but not on the doc itself.
563. # [02:11] <zcorpan_> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#language
564. # [02:11] <dael> r12a: I'd like to see tests to see what happens on the browsers. I'd like to help create those tests.
565. # [02:12] <dael> fantasai: We can talk about those during i18n.
566. # [02:12] <dael> fantasai: So either don't put an example of a justification algorithm or put multiple examples.
567. # [02:12] <dael> jdaggett: I think if you put one, it has to be real world and not made up.
568. # [02:12] <jcraig> s/??: So it's fine for justification, not determining accruate lang./jcraig: So it's fine for justification, not determining accruate lang./
569. # [02:12] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
570. # [02:12] <dael> fantasai: I'm talking algo, not text.
571. # [02:12] <jcraig> s/??: So it's fi/jcraig: So it's fi/
572. # [02:13] <dael> fantasai: Once we can put in is the one murakami_-san mentioned.
573. # [02:13] <dael> stevez: I'm okay with multi, not with one.
574. # [02:13] <dael> plinss: Okay with none?
575. # [02:13] <dael> stevez: I am on the basis I'd like to see us establish a site where we can put the information in. It's informative information.
576. # [02:13] <dael> fantasai: Is there a preference between none or multiple?
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578. # [02:14] <dael> florian1: As long as the multi are somewhere, I don't care where.
579. # [02:14] <dael> dbaron: Either option comes with a link to the wiki?
580. # [02:14] <jdaggett> the examples should simply highlight good choices :)
581. # [02:14] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
582. # [02:14] <dael> dbaron: I'm fine with either.
583. # [02:14] <murakami_> s/if it's not specified and Hangul is spacing justification. And/if lang is not specified, Hangul is inter word justification, and/
584. # [02:14] <dael> stevez: None and a wiki link
585. # [02:14] <jdaggett> single or multiple is not as important as them being good...
586. # [02:14] <murakami_> s/it optimizes the justification and it cannot be expected/the optimized justification cannot be expected/
587. # [02:14] <dael> RESOLVED: No examples of justification algo for text-justify: auto, link to a wiki or note desc language specific conventions
588. # [02:14] <Bert> (Fantasai's white board text: 1) Lang tag; 2) Content-Language HTTP header; 3) System/OS locale; 4) Content sniffing; 5) Charset)
589. # [02:15] <dael> plinss: Is that it?
590. # [02:15] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
591. # [02:15] <dael> plinss: Thursday there's joint with digipub in the morning and SVG in the afternoon. There's also a18n in the morning
592. # [02:15] <dael> fantasai: Friday morning.
593. # [02:15] * fantasai notes that list should probably be unordered, maybe using letters
594. # [02:15] <dael> dbaron: Can someone put times on the wiki? The top and bottom of the wiki disagree.
595. # [02:16] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
596. # [02:16] <dael> dbaron: Come Thursday I'm jsut going to look at the wiki.
597. # [02:16] <dael> plinss: We'll fit it.
598. # [02:16] * Quits: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak) (bobtung)
599. # [02:16] <dael> plinss: We're adjorned.
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601. # [02:16] <dael> [end of meeting]
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604. # [02:16] <Zakim> -jdaggett
605. # [02:16] <Zakim> -kgilbert
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625. # [02:21] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, SantaBarbara, in Team_(css)00:16Z
626. # [02:21] <Zakim> Team_(css)00:16Z has ended
627. # [02:21] <Zakim> Attendees were kgilbert, SantaBarbara, jdaggett
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694. # [10:01] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
695. # [10:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
696. # [10:10] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
697. # [10:37] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
698. # [10:37] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
699. # [10:46] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
700. # [11:16] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
701. # [11:16] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
702. # [11:21] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
703. # [11:42] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
704. # [11:44] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
705. # [11:46] * Joins: antonp1 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
706. # [11:51] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
707. # [11:53] * Quits: antonp1 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
708. # [12:31] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
709. # [13:44] * Quits: Mike_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) ("")
710. # [13:44] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
711. # [13:45] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
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713. # [14:20] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
714. # [14:33] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
715. # [15:29] * Quits: lajava (~javi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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717. # [15:40] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
718. # [16:03] * Joins: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak)
719. # [16:08] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
720. # [16:10] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
721. # [16:11] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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726. # [16:45] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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728. # [17:05] * Joins: shans__ (~shans@public.cloak)
729. # [17:06] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
730. # [17:08] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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739. # [17:18] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
740. # [17:18] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
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744. # [17:25] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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750. # [17:32] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
751. # [17:36] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
752. # [17:36] * Quits: ato (~sid16069@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
753. # [17:36] * Quits: birtles (~sid16523@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
754. # [17:36] * Quits: jet (~uid49872@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
755. # [17:36] * Quits: amtiskaw______ (~sid19262@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
756. # [17:38] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
757. # [17:38] * Quits: mihnea_____ (~sid16310@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
758. # [17:38] * Quits: abucur___ (~sid19072@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
759. # [17:39] * Quits: sgalineau (~sid26595@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
760. # [17:41] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
761. # [17:42] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
762. # [17:42] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
763. # [17:42] * Quits: shans__ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
764. # [17:43] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
765. # [17:45] * Parts: jrossi1 (~jrossi@public.cloak) (jrossi1)
766. # [17:49] * Joins: florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
767. # [17:53] * Parts: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
768. # [17:59] * Joins: iank (~iank@public.cloak)
769. # [18:01] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
770. # [18:13] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
771. # [18:15] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
772. # [18:17] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
773. # [18:18] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
774. # [18:18] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
775. # [18:19] * Joins: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak)
776. # [18:20] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
777. # [18:22] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
778. # [18:22] * Joins: iank (~iank@public.cloak)
779. # [18:22] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
780. # [18:22] * Quits: babatakao (~babatakao@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
781. # [18:24] * Joins: iank_ (~iank@public.cloak)
782. # [18:25] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
783. # [18:26] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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790. # [18:30] * Parts: timeless (~sid4015@public.cloak)
791. # [18:31] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
792. # [18:32] * Joins: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak)
793. # [18:32] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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800. # [18:41] * Joins: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak)
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804. # [18:43] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
805. # [18:44] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
806. # [18:44] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
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810. # [18:46] * Quits: iank_ (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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817. # [18:51] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
818. # [18:52] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
819. # [18:52] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
820. # [18:52] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
821. # [18:53] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
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825. # [19:03] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
826. # [19:03] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
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828. # [19:04] * Quits: kip (~kip@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
829. # [19:06] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
830. # [19:06] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
831. # [19:08] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
832. # [19:13] * Joins: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak)
833. # [19:13] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
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837. # [19:21] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
838. # [19:21] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
839. # [19:22] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
840. # [19:27] * Joins: shepazutu (schepers@public.cloak)
841. # [19:27] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
842. # [19:27] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
843. # [19:28] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
844. # [19:28] * Joins: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak)
845. # [19:29] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
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847. # [19:32] * Quits: myakura_ (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
848. # [19:32] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
849. # [19:32] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
850. # [19:32] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
851. # [19:39] * Joins: shepazutu (schepers@public.cloak)
852. # [19:42] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
853. # [19:42] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
854. # [19:44] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
855. # [19:45] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
856. # [19:47] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
857. # [19:50] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
858. # [19:51] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
859. # [19:52] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
860. # [19:53] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
861. # [19:54] * Joins: iank (~iank@public.cloak)
862. # [20:01] * Quits: dino (~textual@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
863. # [20:02] * Quits: iank (~iank@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
864. # [20:05] * Quits: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak) (estellevw)
865. # [20:06] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
866. # [20:14] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
867. # [20:16] * Joins: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak)
868. # [20:24] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
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870. # [20:45] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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875. # [20:59] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
876. # [20:59] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
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878. # [21:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
879. # [21:01] * Quits: estellevw_ (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
880. # [21:01] * Joins: florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
881. # [21:02] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
882. # [21:03] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
883. # [21:03] * Joins: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak)
884. # [21:04] * Joins: estellevw_ (~estellevw@public.cloak)
885. # [21:05] * Joins: glazou_ (~glazou@public.cloak)
886. # [21:06] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
887. # [21:06] * glazou_ is now known as glazou
888. # [21:13] * Quits: estellevw_ (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
889. # [21:15] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
890. # [21:16] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
891. # [21:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
892. # [21:16] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
893. # [21:17] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
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897. # [21:22] * Joins: stakagi_ (~stakagi@public.cloak)
898. # [21:25] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
899. # [21:25] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
900. # [21:27] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
901. # [21:27] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
902. # [21:28] * Joins: nvdbleek3 (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
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905. # [21:29] * nvdbleek3 is now known as nvdbleek
906. # [21:30] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
907. # [21:31] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
908. # [21:31] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
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910. # [21:34] * Joins: Cyril_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
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916. # [21:40] * Cyril_ is now known as Cyril
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918. # [21:43] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
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922. # [21:49] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
923. # [21:52] * Quits: florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
924. # [21:53] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
925. # [22:08] * Joins: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak)
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930. # [22:15] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
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937. # [22:22] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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943. # [22:30] * glazou_ is now known as glazou
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952. # [23:03] * Joins: florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
953. # [23:05] * Quits: bradk__ (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Be back later ...")
954. # [23:05] * Joins: bradk__ (~bradk@public.cloak)
955. # [23:13] * Quits: bradk__ (~bradk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
956. # [23:15] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
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959. # [23:30] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
960. # [23:35] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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963. # [23:36] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
964. # [23:37] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
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967. # [23:43] * Quits: bradk__ (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Be back later ...")
968. # [23:46] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
969. # [23:47] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
970. # [23:49] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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972. # [23:55] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
973. # [23:57] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
974. # Session Close: Thu Oct 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)