/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-11-05 / end

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  74. # [08:00] <zcorpan> hmmm. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#CSSPseudoElement-interface http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#the-pseudoelement-interface
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  76. # [08:04] <zcorpan> astearns: we need to get aligned here ^
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  96. # [10:28] <florian> Does anybody know what class="noxref" is for?
  97. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, ^
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  132. # [15:25] <krit> TabAtkins: Get new errors. The JSON seems to be valid now and status is set to “current” for all entries
  133. # [15:25] <krit> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/iCSPrRUt
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  135. # [15:26] <krit> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Kuxi9L38
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  137. # [15:27] <krit> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IsVixTiH
  138. # [15:29] <krit> TabAtkins: Removing the line "Attribute Groups: core attributes, presentation attributes” helps
  139. # [15:30] <krit> TabAtkins: or better, removing "core attributes” already helps
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  145. # [15:57] <astearns> zcorpan: yes - are you aware of any implementations?
  146. # [15:58] <zcorpan> astearns: i'm not, but i'm not sure nobody has implemented either
  147. # [15:59] <zcorpan> astearns: what led to the api in the css-pseudo spec?
  148. # [15:59] <astearns> zcorpan: right - I wasn't thinking of choosing one over the other, but whether we are constrained by existing reality
  149. # [16:00] <astearns> two things led to what's in pseudo:
  150. # [16:00] <astearns> 1. needing a way to get to multiple befores and afters (no longer relevant)
  151. # [16:01] <astearns> 2. adding useful things like event targets and setting styles
  152. # [16:01] <zcorpan> what's the use case for 2?
  153. # [16:03] <astearns> pretty much every use case for setting styles for a box via script or responding to events - boxes created in CSS should be full citizens
  154. # [16:06] <zcorpan> gotta go now, i guess we should continue this on the mailing list
  155. # [16:06] <astearns> sounds good
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  188. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> krit: Well sure, removing it "helps" by no longer complaining about missing definitions, but now it's missing the core and presentation attributes. ^_^
  189. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> florian: I presume noxref is something weird to Bert's old processor? It's nothing to do with Bikeshed.
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  199. # [20:27] <estellevw> I came up with what I thought was a viable solution for making icon fonts accessible to screen readers.
  200. # [20:27] <estellevw> @media screen {
  201. # [20:27] <estellevw> .close:after {content: 'd'}
  202. # [20:27] <estellevw> }
  203. # [20:27] <estellevw> @media aural {
  204. # [20:27] <estellevw> .close:after {content: 'close';}
  205. # [20:27] <estellevw> }
  206. # [20:28] <estellevw> but screen readers read “screen” not aural.
  207. # [20:28] <estellevw> anyone ever thought along these lines of how to make generated font icons more accessbile using CSS only?
  208. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> estellevw: Use a better icon font that uses ligatures rather than overwriting letters with no connection to the icon. :/
  209. # [20:34] <estellevw> I agree.
  210. # [20:35] <estellevw> but I am not thinking of a solution for myself. I was looking for a global solution that anyone can use regardless of their control over the font
  211. # [20:35] <estellevw> TabAtkins:
  212. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Out of curiosity, try "speech" media?
  213. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> (We're also adding a (screenreader) meadia feature.
  214. # [20:39] <estellevw> i did try speech
  215. # [20:39] <estellevw> not sure if it’s not yet supported in general, or if it will never work (only tried voice over on safari and chrome…. guess i’ll dig deeper)
  216. # [20:41] <zcorpan> estellevw: the "alt" property helps there
  217. # [20:42] <estellevw> in css?
  218. # [20:42] <estellevw> need to look that up
  219. # [20:42] <zcorpan> estellevw: .close:after { content: 'd'; alt: 'close' }
  220. # [20:42] <estellevw> awesome!
  221. # [20:43] <zcorpan> css-pseudo spec. was added yesterday or so
  222. # [20:43] <zcorpan> will probably be renamed a few times
  223. # [20:44] <astearns> and/or removed, depending on how the discussion goes
  224. # [20:44] <estellevw> ah, bummer, well that would be a great case for it
  225. # [20:46] <zcorpan> send an email to www-style with the use case. there's an active thread about this
  226. # [20:46] <astearns> I'm hoping it stays, but the discussion should result in some solution for that case
  227. # [20:46] <estellevw> will do
  228. # [20:47] <fantasai> It's not that anyone doubts the use case, it's that the current proposal has problems
  229. # [20:47] <astearns> glazou doubted the case :)
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  232. # [20:48] <fantasai> astearns: ???
  233. # [20:49] <astearns> fantasai: his reply where he asked whether we wanted to allow alt text for strictly textual content
  234. # [20:49] <fantasai> astearns: I think he didn't understand it.
  235. # [20:49] <fantasai> astearns: It's obvious when you use Unicode icons as the text
  236. # [20:49] <fantasai> astearns: but if you don't think about that case, you think of text as, well, actual readable text
  237. # [20:49] <fantasai> astearns: in which case, it indeed makes little sense
  238. # [20:50] <fantasai> estellevw: 'alt' as a solution has a cascading problem
  239. # [20:51] <fantasai> estellevw: it's very easy for 'alt' and 'content' to get out of sync if a later declaration rewrites 'content' without thinking about 'alt'
  240. # [20:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm not sure (screenreader) makes sense
  241. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Why not?
  242. # [20:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You want to target rules at the aural canvas, or target rules based on whether there is visual output or not, not target rules based on whether there is speech output or not.
  243. # [20:53] * fantasai hopes that made sense
  244. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Not sure what the difference is between the first and third case.
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  247. # [20:54] <fantasai> @media (screenreader) { ... { content: "A bit of readable text } }
  248. # [20:54] <fantasai> that puts content on the visual canvas, too.
  249. # [20:54] <fantasai> You want to put content A on the visual canvas and content B on the aural canvas
  250. # [20:54] <fantasai> some devices are visual only, fine
  251. # [20:55] <fantasai> some devices are aural only,
  252. # [20:55] <fantasai> and some are both
  253. # [20:55] <fantasai> You're targetting canvases here, not device capabilities
  254. # [20:56] <fantasai> It's not a new concept, exactly, but it's kindof been forgotten.
  255. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Okay, gotcha.
  256. # [20:56] <fantasai> IIRC the DOM was written with multiple canvases in mind, but there was no use case for whatever it was they were thinking ^_^
  257. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> (screenread) still makes sense for other things, but you're right, this case isn't it. You want 'alt' or similar.
  258. # [20:57] <fantasai> I definitely do not want alt
  259. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> It's precisely the "change the content for the aural canvas" thing.
  260. # [20:58] <fantasai> Yeah, but it's got cascading problems.
  261. # [20:58] <fantasai> It *will* get out of sync
  262. # [20:58] <fantasai> and the author won't notice
  263. # [20:58] <fantasai> because he isn't using speech
  264. # [20:58] <fantasai> You need something inline with 'content'
  265. # [20:59] * Quits: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak) (estellevw)
  266. # [20:59] <fantasai> anyway, go read the thread :)
  267. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> What you're saying is applicable to the alt attribute too.
  268. # [20:59] * fantasai is just repeating herself atm
  269. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> (Haven't gotten through the thread yet.)
  270. # [20:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Much so because HTML doesn't cascade attributes and content independently :)
  271. # [20:59] <SimonSapin> url("foo.png", alt: "bar"), or image("foo.png", alt: "bar") ?
  272. # [20:59] <fantasai> s/Much/Much less/
  273. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Kill the colon.
  274. # [21:00] <SimonSapin> sure
  275. # [21:00] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  276. # [21:04] * dauwhe wondering who put the sheep in the default spec CSS hr:not([title])::before {content: "\1F411\2003\2003\1F411\2003\2003\1F411";}
  277. # [21:07] * fantasai & TabAtkins did
  278. # [21:07] * dauwhe excellent. carry on.
  279. # [21:09] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
  280. # [21:13] * fantasai replies to the thread about that
  281. # [21:17] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I don't think we want it inline in image() or url()
  282. # [21:17] <fantasai> SimonSapin: It's really only in generated content that you need a read-aloud thing
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  284. # [21:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So, I'm reading D in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#algo-main-item
  285. # [21:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: and, I think it's wrong.
  286. # [21:49] <fantasai> It's triggering orthogonal flow rules on documents that are all all horizontal
  287. # [21:50] * fantasai thinks s/parallel/perpendicular/ might fix it
  288. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> It shouldn't. I'm not sure you're reading it right.
  289. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> main size is infinite, and inline axis (logical width) is parallel with main axis (so space available to do logical-width in is infinite).
  290. # [21:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: used flex basis is auto, available main size is infinite occurs in column flexboxen
  291. # [21:52] <fantasai> ah
  292. # [21:53] <fantasai> But then, that last sentence makes no sense
  293. # [21:53] <fantasai> Let's say we have a vertical writing mode item in a horizontal writing mode column
  294. # [21:53] <fantasai> that hits the conditional
  295. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Yeah
  296. # [21:54] <fantasai> but then, why do we need to lay out the item to...
  297. # [21:54] <fantasai> nevermind
  298. # [21:54] <fantasai> multicol
  299. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> You gotta say it right.
  300. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> MULTICOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!
  301. # [21:54] <fantasai> I think we have a similar issue that's not covered though
  302. # [21:55] <fantasai> what if you have a row flexbox in that case
  303. # [21:55] <fantasai> same case
  304. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> non-infinite space then.
  305. # [21:55] <fantasai> you can't find the max-content size until you lay out in ortho flows
  306. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> That case is E, and I think we automatically invoke ortho flows in that case?
  307. # [21:57] <fantasai> >___<;;;
  308. # [21:57] * fantasai wonders what fit-content does for ortho flows
  309. # [21:57] <fantasai> T_T
  310. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Don't have the ability to page that in right now.
  311. # [21:57] <fantasai> is okay
  312. # [21:58] * fantasai should go do homework for tomorrow. ._.;
  313. # [21:58] <fantasai> oh, or, um, eat lunch
  314. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> And if you really feel like speccing, work on Text. ^_^
  315. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that too.
  316. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> !_!
  317. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> It's 4 already! Go eat!
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  330. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> krit: What was up with https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/258 ?
  331. # [23:16] <krit> TabAtkins: I had a default in the meta block
  332. # [23:16] <krit> TabAtkins: I removed it and then Bikeshed found it
  333. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  334. # [23:16] <krit> TabAtkins: so can be closed
  335. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I'll close then.
  336. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Thanks.
  337. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what do you mean by new forms?
  338. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> re counters
  339. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Like, rather than using counter() (which has to look arbitrarily far up the tree), have another form which only works if the parent element establishes the scope in question.
  340. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> That would enable us to use *real counters* for ul/ol, which we can't right now due to perf.
  341. # [23:27] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what’s a "form" in this context?
  342. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Sorry, another function.
  343. # [23:29] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: pcwalton says +1000000
  344. # [23:30] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what happens if <li> or even display:list-item is not properly nested in ul/or?
  345. # [23:30] <SimonSapin> ul/ol
  346. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> I suppose you'd apply the counter() thing via something like:
  347. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> li::marker { content: counter(list-item); } ul > li::marker, ol > li::marker { content: parent-counter(list-item); }
  348. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> So misnested things would still get a counter via the old rules, but properly nested (common case) would use the faster form.
  349. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> http://jsbin.com/nutuxeqezi/1/edit?html,output
  350. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> I see
  351. # [23:33] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  352. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> That's assuming the cost is in looking up the counter scope.
  353. # [23:33] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Is this currently a perf problem in Blink, without parallel layout?
  354. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> Or rather, handling the possibly unbounded cost of looking it up.
  355. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's enough that we can't do ul/ol with "real" counters.
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  360. # Session Close: Thu Nov 06 00:00:00 2014

The end :)