/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-11-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 11 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  6. # [00:56] <astearns> fantasai: ping - just a sanity check. You are not removing the OM section of css-pseudo, correct?
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  50. # [17:55] <fantasai> astearns: Was gonna ask about that
  51. # [17:55] <fantasai> astearns: Think we should remove 'alt' for now, though
  52. # [17:55] <fantasai> astearns: belongs in css-content anyway
  53. # [17:56] <fantasai> astearns, sgalineau: Post to www-style with [css-grid][rename] in the subjectline
  54. # [17:56] <astearns> fantasai: glazou has an action to review the OM section, so it should stay for now
  55. # [17:57] <fantasai> astearns, sgalineau: We deliberately decided against 'fl' last time it was discussed
  56. # [17:57] <astearns> alt (or whatever it ends up being) should *move* to css-content, not just be removed
  57. # [17:58] <fantasai> astearns: It should be removed until we have a good proposal for solving the problem. Otherwise it should turn into an open issue.
  58. # [17:58] <astearns> I think either the property or adding to the content value is a good proposal
  59. # [17:58] <fantasai> astearns: possibly with pointers into the www-style discussion
  60. # [17:58] <astearns> both have issues
  61. # [17:59] <fantasai> astearns: sure. Let's work them out, and then add something that has WG consensus to the draft.
  62. # [17:59] <astearns> I added it to provoke the discussion - we'd spent two years not doing anything
  63. # [17:59] * tantek did CSS telcons switch to Tuesday?
  64. # [18:00] * tantek doesn't see an agenda in the /topic
  65. # [18:00] * tantek or rather, an agenda for *today*
  66. # [18:00] * astearns thinks tantek is mistaking IRC chatter for telcon minuting
  67. # [18:01] <tantek> astearns: with fantasai - the two are often indistinguishable
  68. # [18:02] <fantasai> tantek: while you're here, issue that needs your help!
  69. # [18:02] <fantasai> tantek: 'icon' property / 'content' value
  70. # [18:02] <fantasai> tantek: Are there implementations?
  71. # [18:02] <fantasai> tantek: dauwhe is trying to figure out what to do with it in css3-content
  72. # [18:03] <tantek> I thought I cut that already
  73. # [18:03] <tantek> due to lack of implementation interest
  74. # [18:03] <tantek> I still think it's a good idea
  75. # [18:03] <tantek> however, apathy means no go
  76. # [18:03] <fantasai> tantek: nope, it's still in your draft :p
  77. # [18:03] <fantasai> tantek: also in css3-content
  78. # [18:03] <tantek> uh oops
  79. # [18:04] <fantasai> heh
  80. # [18:04] * tantek goes to record an issue to not forget *again* :/
  81. # [18:04] <fantasai> tantek: just reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0152.html
  82. # [18:04] <fantasai> tantek: I think Florian and dauwhe will take care of it for you
  83. # [18:04] <tantek> if only W3C email archives had a "Reply" button that did something useful
  84. # [18:04] <fantasai> I know, right!
  85. # [18:05] <tantek> fantasai: and that is a tl;dr of why I'm co-chairing the Social *Web* WG
  86. # [18:05] <tantek> fixing "Reply" buttons on web pages
  87. # [18:05] <fantasai> https://twitter.com/fantasai/status/529341665027584001 :p
  88. # [18:06] <tantek> fantasai - well I've asked Florian to hold-off on editing CSS3-UI and instead to help with issues/tests and to collaborate on editing CSS4-UI
  89. # [18:06] <tantek> fantasai lol @ your tweet :)
  90. # [18:07] <tantek> fantasai in the social web wg, we've skipped that step entirely and gone with a much better IRC archive: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today
  91. # [18:07] * dauwhe Turns out even Prince doesn't support icon:url(foo.jpg)
  92. # [18:07] <fantasai> tantek: I think you should take Florian on as junior editor for css3-ui and not push him off like that.
  93. # [18:09] <fantasai> tantek: He's a competent editor, he's got more time than you to do a good job on css3-ui, and he'll follow your lead on technical decisions so you don't even need to worry about differences in philosophy
  94. # [18:10] <fantasai> tantek: Even if you want to be a control freak, he's the sort of person that can work with that.
  95. # [18:10] <fantasai> tantek: and send you diffs of every change, with explanations, and solicit your opinion on each grammar edit if you want it that much
  96. # [18:10] <fantasai> tantek: but nobody is winning by you blocking his ability to get things done
  97. # [18:12] <fantasai> s/ability/capacity/
  98. # [18:12] * fantasai specwriter obsessing over word choice
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  100. # [18:15] <tantek> fantasai - nobody is winning by rudeness either
  101. # [18:15] <tantek> and frankly, that's more important to me, in terms of group culture
  102. # [18:16] <tantek> the way the chairs/wg handled this was rude and out of order, as I've conveyed to plinss
  103. # [18:16] <tantek> Florian has already apologized to me privately and I've asked him to back that up by working with me as I proposed
  104. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> tantek: there’s a "respond to this message" button that adds References and other headers. It used to double-percent-encode, but I think that’s fixed now
  105. # [18:25] <tantek> SimonSapin and what happens when you click it?
  106. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> it opens a thunderbird composing window, and I believe threading will be correct if I actually send the email
  107. # [18:31] <fantasai> tantek: I consider that a separate issue, and you shouldn't be holding it against Florian.
  108. # [18:32] * fantasai doesn't think it's fair to be grumpy at people who aren't the cause of the grumpy
  109. # [18:32] <tantek> Florian made it clear he did some driving of this, so yes, he is somewhat responsible
  110. # [18:33] <fantasai> Ok, fair.
  111. # [18:33] <tantek> but fantasai you're right too, there was a process/culture issue from a chairing perspective
  112. # [18:33] <tantek> which I've discussed with plinss in person at TPAC
  113. # [18:34] <fantasai> tantek: I still think you're being possessive wrt css3-ui, and should try being more open to collaboration by letting Florian actively edit.
  114. # [18:34] <tantek> fantasai - perhaps if it had been handled differently
  115. # [18:34] <fantasai> tantek: that's in the past. Let it go.
  116. # [18:34] <tantek> nope, that's not how consequences/learning works
  117. # [18:34] <tantek> and there's plenty of work *besides* editing
  118. # [18:34] <tantek> that's my point
  119. # [18:35] <tantek> so if his goal is to move the draft along, there's other work to do to help with that besides co-editing
  120. # [18:35] <tantek> so that's what I've asked him to focus on for CSS3-UI
  121. # [18:35] <fantasai> It would be helpful to all of us if the draft was up-to-date sooner rather than later.
  122. # [18:35] <tantek> and based on how that goes we can collaborate on CSS4-UI
  123. # [18:35] <tantek> and THAT is a separate issue
  124. # [18:35] <tantek> that's what the group should have discussed, resolved that they wanted changes, by a certain date (minimum 2 weeks notice)
  125. # [18:36] <tantek> not do a editorship change
  126. # [18:36] <tantek> (until such time as there was a failure to follow up on the group resolution)
  127. # [18:36] <tantek> that's how we've always worked
  128. # [18:36] <tantek> not sure why you or Florian or the chairs felt like it was right to short-circuit that in this case
  129. # [18:36] <tantek> that is the problem
  130. # [18:36] <tantek> no editor should be treated like that
  131. # [18:36] <tantek> this is not personal
  132. # [18:37] <fantasai> a) We've never had a problem with an editor rejecting a new co-editor before.
  133. # [18:37] <fantasai> b) You shouldn't need deadlines to keep reasonably up-to-date with assigned edits.
  134. # [18:37] <fantasai> But if you really need, B, I guess we can micromanage you per your request.
  135. # [18:37] <tantek> a) the group has never summarily changed editorship without the current editor before, who explicitly indicated regrets for the meeting where the change occured
  136. # [18:38] <tantek> that was 100% out of order
  137. # [18:38] <fantasai> not disagreeing with that
  138. # [18:38] <tantek> thus we undo it
  139. # [18:38] <fantasai> okay
  140. # [18:38] <tantek> it's that simple
  141. # [18:38] <fantasai> let's undo it
  142. # [18:38] <fantasai> and then discuss it again at another call
  143. # [18:38] <tantek> if you make a mistake, you admit it, and you roll it back
  144. # [18:38] <fantasai> where you are present
  145. # [18:38] <tantek> no. follow the previous process
  146. # [18:38] <fantasai> What previous process?
  147. # [18:38] <tantek> discuss what changes you/the group want
  148. # [18:38] <tantek> and resolve on them
  149. # [18:38] <tantek> then the editor has a chance to act on them
  150. # [18:38] <tantek> until that happens
  151. # [18:38] <fantasai> That's a separate issue, Tantek.
  152. # [18:39] <tantek> change of editorship MUST not be on the table
  153. # [18:39] <tantek> nope
  154. # [18:39] <tantek> this is the order of things
  155. # [18:39] <fantasai> We've added editors to specs so far based on one criteria: that person is volunteering to work on the spec.
  156. # [18:40] <tantek> only when there's a failure of an editor to do as the group has resolved, is it appropriate for the group to discuss adding an editor to make the changes the group resolved
  157. # [18:40] <fantasai> Whether the was an active editor before or not didn't matter, if you wanted to contribute you were allowed to volunteer
  158. # [18:40] <fantasai> The group discussed it, and then resolved on it
  159. # [18:40] <fantasai> with the current editor present
  160. # [18:41] <fantasai> That last bit was lost
  161. # [18:41] <fantasai> but there was never any requirement that the current editor be incompetent before adding another co-editor
  162. # [18:41] <tantek> very much so, especially with explicit regrets expressed IN ADVANCE
  163. # [18:41] <tantek> actually yes, we have done that in the past
  164. # [18:41] <tantek> where an editor didn't make changes, so we added an editor to do so
  165. # [18:41] <fantasai> yes, of course
  166. # [18:41] <tantek> and that was date driven
  167. # [18:41] <fantasai> but it wasn't a requirement
  168. # [18:41] <tantek> so that's what should have happened
  169. # [18:41] <tantek> and what should still happen
  170. # [18:42] <fantasai> we've added plenty of co-editors where the existing editor was also actively working
  171. # [18:42] <tantek> but with the current editor(s) explicit approval/request
  172. # [18:42] <tantek> which was obviously lacking in this case
  173. # [18:42] <tantek> that's my point
  174. # [18:42] <tantek> absent current editors, the only path forward is the one I outlined above
  175. # [18:42] <tantek> I'm still not sure why you're pushing such a rude treatment as being ok in the CSSWG
  176. # [18:43] <tantek> that's my larger concern
  177. # [18:43] <fantasai> sure, but I'm proposing that we make you not absent and have the discussion again
  178. # [18:43] <tantek> I don't want to see that kind of behavior to be deemed acceptable in the CSSWG
  179. # [18:43] <tantek> toward ANYONE
  180. # [18:43] <tantek> and I'm proposing that the group resolve on the changes wanted, by a date, and I can react to that
  181. # [18:44] <fantasai> How is that supposed to fix the CSSWG being rude?
  182. # [18:46] <fantasai> Also, why are you making it a requirement for your spec that you won't accept a co-editor unless you're deemed incompetent?
  183. # [18:46] <fantasai> (Those are two separate questions. Please answer separately.)
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  210. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Are we sure that we've never added co-editorship while the editor wasn't in the room?
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  213. # [20:04] <dauwhe_> I was added as co-editor of GenCon when two of the three existing editors were absent (Håkon and Hixie). But they hadn't touched it in a decade.
  214. # [20:04] * dauwhe_ is now known as dauwhe
  215. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and I seem to recall this happening before you joined the group, but I can't remember what spec it was for.
  216. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> But it may have been a similar "editor has effectively left the group" case.
  217. # [20:08] <tantek> except if an editor is still participating via IRC during telcons, that's not reall "effectively left the group"
  218. # [20:08] <tantek> s/reall/really
  219. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> tantek: I wasn't referring to you there, I was referring to dauwhe's case.
  220. # [20:08] <tantek> TabAtkins: right, I knew you were not. just clarifying.
  221. # [20:09] <tantek> speaking of which, I was going to ask about Bikeshed help
  222. # [20:09] <tantek> help!
  223. # [20:09] <tantek> :)
  224. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Hah. Ask again in a bit, I'm just about to leave for an emergency endodontist appointment.
  225. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Root canal number 12, woo!
  226. # [20:11] <tantek> ow ow ow I'm sorry :(
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  230. # [20:33] <hober> IIRC dbaron and sgalineau were added as Animations editors when none of the other editors were present.
  231. # [20:33] <glazou> hober: correct
  232. # [20:34] <sgalineau> hober: I don't think that was true the first time
  233. # [20:35] <sgalineau> hober: as I recall, this happened on a TPAC Sunday at Adobe San Jose when I presented a long list of open wwww-style issue. Dean was there. I think Simon, too.
  234. # [20:35] * dauwhe this is probably a good time not to mention GCPM :)
  235. # [20:35] <glazou> hober, sgalineau anyway, we never ever had an editor object to adding a co-editor in the whole history of the CSS WG…
  236. # [20:35] <sgalineau> hober: and I think Simon was there when we added me back in Seattle this year
  237. # [20:35] <glazou> dauwhe: GCPM is different ; Håkon pulled himself out of the WG first
  238. # [20:35] <sgalineau> s/Håkon/Napoleon
  239. # [20:36] <glazou> again, nobody owns a document in the CSS WG ; only the WG itself does own documents
  240. # [20:36] <glazou> WG appoints editors
  241. # [20:36] <glazou> by consensus
  242. # [20:36] <glazou> and Bert can testify consensus minus one is still consensus...
  243. # [20:36] <sgalineau> right. I certainly never heard complaints from the original css-animations editors :)
  244. # [20:37] <sgalineau> glazou: well, it could also be that consensus - Bert == consensus -> Bert == 0
  245. # [20:37] <glazou> not really
  246. # [20:38] <glazou> Bert is supervaluable in our WG, he often sees declarative ways of doing things we never saw before
  247. # [20:38] <sgalineau> glazou: er, I don't know how you could interpret this seriously but whatever
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  263. # [23:06] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
  264. # [23:19] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  265. # [23:30] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  266. # [23:38] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  267. # Session Close: Wed Nov 12 00:00:00 2014

The end :)