/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-11-12 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Nov 12 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:49] <TabAtkins> Okay, git design question. Pretty sure I'm not being stupid about this, but wanna double-check.
# [00:50] <TabAtkins> Bikeshed has a problem right now, that it stores a version of its data files in the repo (updated whenever I remember to), so people first downloading the repo have a fully-working tool. But if you manually update the data files, a subsequent git pull might cause conflicts.
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> I'm thinking I can fix that by moving the repo versions over to a separate folder, clearly denoted as being read-only, and keeping the local versions in a folder that is empty in the repo. If Bikeshed can't find a data file, it copies it from the read-only folder into the local folder; otherwise, it always uses the local.
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> Plus something that tracks when an update is done, so if you git pull and the repo has new files, Bikeshed'll recognize that and copy them over instead.
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> This'll work and avoid the conflicts, right?
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# [01:22] <fantasai> tantek: I think Florian already has a patch for bikeshedding css3-ui
# [01:22] <fantasai> tantek: He hasn't checked it in because you didn't want his help
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# [01:22] <tantek> sorry I have a meeting in a few minutes and cannot chat now (1:1)
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> He does indeed have a bikeshedded UI already.
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# [03:34] <liam> TabAtkins, might be worth adding an up-to-date check?
# [03:34] <liam> e.g. store & compare latest commit when copying
# [03:48] <TabAtkins> liam: Yeah, I plan to change to also store the date of the update, so if the read-only files are updated, but your local files are even more recent, it won't mess anything up.
# [03:48] <liam> sounds plausible, #whatcould... etc
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# [17:04] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0158.html'
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# [17:04] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:04] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
# [17:04] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:57] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aaaa
# [17:58] <Florian> Zakim, I am aaaa
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.907.315.aabb
# [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [17:59] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, +1.907.315.aabb is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
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# [17:59] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:59] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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# [18:00] * glazou hzs
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# [18:00] <glazou> issues joining
# [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:00] <alex_antennahouse> I'm IPCaller
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# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aacc
# [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:01] <dael> zakim, IPCaller is alex_antennahouse
# [18:01] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P35
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P37
# [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P35 is me
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P36
# [18:01] <murakami> zakim, ??P36 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:02] <Zakim> +vivien
# [18:02] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [18:02] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [18:02] * Bert zakim, vivien is me
# [18:02] * Zakim +Bert; got it
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Florian, gregwhitworth, plinss, dael, dauwhe, [Microsoft], alex_antennahouse, smfr, glazou.a, glazou, SimonSapin, ??P37, murakami, [IPcaller], Bert, Stearns
# [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see andreyr, KeshavP, murakami, smfr, alex_antennahouse, antenna, dael, gregwhitworth, Bo_Campbell, bcampbell, dbaron, darktears, Zakim, glazou, Florian, dauwhe, zcorpan,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... tommyjtl_, svillar, plh, antonp, lajava, gsnedders, plinss, alexmog, ed, decadance, leaverou, shans, projector, sylvaing, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot, Hixie, krit, TabAtkins,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... Teoli___, mvujovic_____, achicu_____, ppk___, lmclister_____, slightlyoff, hober, hiroshi2, wilhelm, kangil, paul___irish, rbyers, abucur___, amtiskaw______, sgalineau,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... astearns
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:03] <fantasai> Zakim, Ipcaller.a is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> +SGalineau
# [18:03] * dauwhe anyone know what the w3c record is for number of underscores after an IRC nick?
# [18:03] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:03] * sgalineau my regrets were WRONG
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's start
# [18:04] * sgalineau invalid regrets are the worst thing
# [18:04] <Florian> http://www.w3.org/mid/8ADFE4C9-579D-4DF2-B6CD-53FF9C2D6ADB@rivoal.net
# [18:04] <Florian> http://www.w3.org/mid/FD5224A3-309C-4B65-BD71-D50D4F0314BC@rivoal.net
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Florian I got your request late.
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: Igo t some points, linked above.
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Anything else? Other extra items?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P49
# [18:05] <dael> Bo_Campbell: I wanted to introduce an item if we have time.
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# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I missed your e-mail announcing you joined the group. We usually do the introductions on the ML.
# [18:05] <dael> Bo_Campbell: I did send an introduction, but I'll do that again.
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# [18:05] <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI editorship
# [18:05] * dbaron is having trouble getting Zakim to answer
# [18:06] <dael> tantak: I requested we talk about what changes first.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: We want to revist the discussion
# [18:06] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:06] <dael> tantek: I wanted to do edits sep of editorship
# [18:06] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/
# [18:06] <tantek> dael, see my email to www-style on this
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aadd
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: The context is in Sophia we decided that CSS-UI was long unattended. We don't have a good track record in general of PRs and REC. WE retired a few doc as notes and gutted notes, the rest we wanted active editorship
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: CSS3-UI was mentioned in Sophia with no complete decision. It was 2 months before TPAC. So at TPAC we ddecided not to remove your editorship, tantek. The WG only decided to add another name, someone who is more available to do editoral stuff to make progress. That's all Ihave to say as the chair. I'll participate as a member.
# [18:08] <KeshavP> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +KeshavP; got it
# [18:08] <dael> tantek: That's the first I've heard about this. The first I heard about the new heartbeat was from plinss at TPAC. My understanding is that the group is now, as you said, making a priority of end of lifing a document or make it more actively pub. Is that correct?
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# [18:09] <dael> glazou: That plus there's new suggestions coming, for instance from Bloomberg, and that was discussed in Sophia
# [18:09] <dael> tantek: Was there resolution to add something? What was resolved to CSSUI? The pervious was to keep the working items in 3 and postpone the rest.
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: There were a few additions.
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: It was recognizing and accepting items to work on.
# [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.212.617.aaee
# [18:10] <dael> tantek: That makes sense to accept things to work on. There was a drive to wrap up CSSUI3 as is and put anything suishy and uncertain in 4. I'm fine with caret-color, but I think being that items are beyond the scope of that plan, I'd push against them being added to lvl 3.
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: I think it depends on impl, so it's not in out hand.
# [18:11] <dael> tantek: I agree on that.
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: I would like to understand, you obj to a new co-editor, not a new editor.
# [18:11] <astearns> (some of the) CSS UI resolutions from Sophia: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0260.html
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: This is the first time in the history of the WG, so I'd like to understand why.
# [18:11] * TabAtkins is running late.
# [18:12] * fantasai q+ fantasai
# [18:12] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:12] * sgalineau thinks the issue of how we make the spec progress is orthogonal to whomever edits it
# [18:12] <dael> tantek: I objected to the order of discussions. I'd obj to this about any doc. My understanding of the way the WG has worked and there is an order of operations where if the WG decides we need a new draft or changes, the WG can decide even without hte editor there and give a certain date for completion. My understanding this has been at least 2 weeks
# [18:12] <dael> tantek: I obj to skipping completely and changing editors.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: I happened with howcome.
# [18:13] * astearns notes that we also resolved to add Tab as a co-editor to CSS UI in Sophia: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0295.html
# [18:13] <Florian> q+
# [18:13] * Zakim sees fantasai, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Your understanding of how the WG has wroked is wrong. I've been here for 10 years and we've added co-editors to docs and there's never been a req or consideration of competence for the old editors. What we have considered is if the person is willing and interested. If there was a case of incompetence your process makes sense. WE have had people leave and disappear.
# [18:14] * sgalineau is not sure the way the WG has done things in the past is an interesting or relevant topic
# [18:14] <dael> tantek: We have a diff memory then.
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I can read off minutes
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> I don’t think we asked Melinda Grant or Håkon before adding me as co-editor to css-page
# [18:15] <dael> tantek: This WG has had a healthier intereaction than you desc. I don't want to see that go forward. WE're talking about a way forward. I also obj to brining in incompetence to the conversation.
# [18:15] <fantasai> tantek: I don't understand why you think this is unhealthy. Person volunteers to help me edit my spec. I don't have a problem with it. WG agrees to add the editor. Done.
# [18:16] <tantek> fantasai - rudeness is unhealthy.
# [18:16] <tantek> I don't understand why you're defending that.
# [18:16] <fantasai> tantek: What is rude about the process I just described? Nothing.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: I think the ex of howcome wasn't interesting here. I think another would be when I was editing MQ and I was doing it moderatly actively. TabAtkins had an interested in working on it, he was added, did edits, and there was no consideration to not responding. TabAtkins worked as a co-editor and responded to req rom the WG and made edits. I think that was useful.
# [18:16] <fantasai> tantek: What's rude is maybe that you were not present at the last discussion about editorship of css3-ui
# [18:16] <fantasai> tantek: Yes, I agree that's rude
# [18:16] <fantasai> tantek: We should not do that.
# [18:17] <fantasai> tantek: but that's a different issue as to whether we need to prove that you cannot handle editing the spec before we consider volunteers to co-edit
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: At the moment I have time and interest for the spec and adding my time I hope would help it move forward. This isn't about your esponding to the group. To drive things forward isn't just about responding, it's about considering what has been added in other places and pushing the group. We're not retiring you because you're not responcive.
# [18:17] <sgalineau> fantasai: I think it's rude if there is no follow up and the editor finds out weeks later by accident.
# [18:17] <fantasai> sgalineau: I'm not contesting that.
# [18:18] <fantasai> sgalineau: Is it rude if the editor was present in the original discussion?
# [18:18] <dael> tantek: Florian I'm not blaming you. I appriciate you have time and interest to work on CSS UI. As I've communicated privatly, I think the more interesting work is lvl 4 and that's an area that I explicitly rec needs more work and could use the help of a co-editor in more ways that CSS3 UI
# [18:18] <sgalineau> fantasai: just saying it's not necessarily rude to make those calls without the editor.
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# [18:18] <sgalineau> fantasai: I think we're off in the weeds and spending way too much time discussing everything except what the WG wants to do with the spec
# [18:19] <dael> tantek: So let's do that for 4. For 3 lets trim things in a way I think I can be more effective as a single editor. I don't want to squash enthusiam and want to see you help work on level 4 where there's renewed interest. That's how I'd like to move forward with you, Florian if that's okay. I'd rather collborative decisions instead of overriding opinions.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: You're prop a co-editor rule.
# [18:19] <dael> tantek: I'm proposing for lvl 4.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: It has two levels to work on.
# [18:19] <Florian> q+
# [18:19] * Zakim sees fantasai, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:19] * fantasai ack fantasai
# [18:19] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: To go back to fantasai point we have plenty of ex about adding editors. The last doc you edited in this group was fullscreen. Okay, you attending a few calls, but rarely the full thing. You're far less involved than you used to be.
# [18:20] <dael> tantek: I think you're changing the topic and it's not relevent.
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: I think it is.
# [18:20] <astearns> I think it's a fine compromise to add Florian as a co-editor to level 4 and have Tantek move level 3 forward
# [18:20] <dael> tantek: If Florian and I can work out how we think CSS UI should work, I think we should be able to do that.
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: The WG should decide.
# [18:20] <dael> tantek: I don't think they should micromanage.
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: The group decides. We're lax, but everything we do is decided by the WG. All our rules are decided by the WG. You know that.
# [18:21] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:21] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:21] <dael> tantek: Rarely does the WG decide against what an editor is trying to do. I understand we're run by consensus, but we try and work with the desires of those working.
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: WE had consensus and we're still discussing it.
# [18:22] <dael> tantek: No one is arguing about able, but I think there's a better way forward.
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: We heard you, I'd like to hear from other WG members.
# [18:22] * Joins: jacobg______ (~sid14856@public.cloak)
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: With the lvl 4 proposal, I'm happy to do that. In lvl 3 there's one or two things that concern me a bit. To be able to work on 4, it's not productive if 3 isn't somewhere between PR and REC.
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: I currently intend to go line by line to see if there are things that need o be address, go through the wiki, bring things to the ML. I can forward all the resolution and proposals to you, but having you as a gatekeeper sounds like unnec overheard.
# [18:24] * bkardell_ unless you are the keymaster, then it's sensible
# [18:25] <dael> tantek: I'm not talking about delays, I'm making this a priority and I'm committing the y to working actively to dealing with the issues regarding CSS3 UI. I think we can work together to conquer the items and devide them between 3 and 4. I don't think this is gatekeeping, I'd like to try the way I proposed for a couple weeks to see how it goes. I fyou want to start 4 from the current state of 3 that's reasonable, bt I'm more of the opinion I'd like the changes
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> FWIW, I'm still of the opinion that we should only have one active level of a module at a time, with "higher" modules being maintained as deltas except when published. Don't think we have a single instance of co-active module levels that were *actually* properly maintained, with fixes propagating both ways.
# [18:25] <dael> tantek: to 3 to be more concervative. Even if they're editorial, I thnk it slows things down. I think the two levels should be handled differently. I'd like you to take charge of the much more free to make changes part where the gatekeeping is getting 3 more quickly to CR
# [18:25] * dauwhe do we have a queue?
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: It seems that you're the author, owner, and decider, not the editor. The WG is the owner and they will decide how to handle it.
# [18:26] * Florian dauwhe: just type q+
# [18:26] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:26] * Bert q?
# [18:26] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <dael> tantek: I think I'm looking for collaboration. I'd like to see Florian and I make progress.
# [18:26] * fantasai ack Florian
# [18:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <bkardell_> "Try it for a few weeks" seems relatively harmless... Why not give it a shot with review in 2 or 3 weeks
# [18:27] <glazou> bkardell_: yes
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: I'd like to clarify when I said line by line, I don't mean to change things everywhere, I meant o refine things that are insuffiencetly expalined or see when things have been more acc desc in another place.
# [18:27] * Parts: jacobg______ (~sid14856@public.cloak)
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: For example, the introduction is a bit out of date. For the actual text, I don't plan on making major changes and agree with you about it being conservative. If you have time to actively work great, bt I'm concerned that I have spec changes I want to put in and sending you patches isn't as straight forward as doing it.
# [18:28] <dael> tantek: Yes, have time to work on this and am making this a priority and I rec that I haven't in the past. So I'd like to work on moving this forward together.
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: I'd like to hear from others.
# [18:28] <tantek> I think astearns had an opinion
# [18:28] <dael> andreyr: I think that Florian should be a co-editor as we voted. I don't see a problem with tat.
# [18:28] <dael> s/tat/that
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
# [18:29] <dael> astearns: I can live with tantek plan, but I agree with Florian it's unnec beurocratic so I'd pref Florian as a co-editor
# [18:29] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: I don't see a problem with Florian being the co-editor. I think since he has patches it seems silly to have him put it through the ML. I think they should be able to work together.
# [18:30] * ChrisL sorry for being late, the power was off
# [18:30] <bkardell_> Github for the win
# [18:30] <dael> tantek: That's not what's being proposed. I'm proposing something much more itnereactive. A two week wait is rediculou.
# [18:31] <dael> SteveZ: It seemed to me that tantek and Florian were working out a relationship and it seems to me that the group doesn't need to micromanage. I'm coming down that Florian should be an editor and we leave it to them to work out how they devide the work on 3 and 4. I know that's not exactly what tantek is asking, but I think that they can work it out.
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: I do think it would be simplier if I'm a coeditor. I don't obj to having tantek be the one doing it and me forwarding requests, but it seems unnec. If that'st he only way forward, it's better than non, but 's process heavy.
# [18:32] <dael> tantek: I don't want to be process heavy. I think deviding the work between 3 and 4 would be more effiecnt. I don't want ot be a gatekeeper, I'll keep an eye on what you do to 4 and I'll be very concervative on 3 and we can itnereact on IRC or e-mail r whatever. This isn't about process, this is abou being efficent.
# [18:33] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins said earlier that 2 specs that are dup the same content doesn't work well. When there's 2 we have the second be a delta until the one abou stabilizes. Florian doing level 4 means he won't be able to work onmuch.
# [18:33] <dael> tantek: I don't think so. 3 is pretty stable.
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: What if the WG decides in 2 weeks to add something the CSS3 UI. You said yu want concervative. We can change our mind and decide to add something, will youlet it be.
# [18:34] * Ms2ger mumbles something about versioning
# [18:35] <dael> tantek: Yes, if the WG decides to change we'll do it, but I think CSS3 UI is a release branch and active work will go into 4. Backporting bug fixes will need to be work on CSS3 UI. That's part of the natural course of working on specs.
# [18:35] * Parts: rbyers (~sid31141@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: So we need to move one. tantek Florian what's the plan. You guys start working together and reach a gentlemen's agreement on how to proceed?
# [18:35] <dbaron> I don't think that addresses how the work will happen to define the features in level 3 more carefully and precisely.
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: I would like to point out that I'd agree more with tantek if the spec was in late CR.
# [18:36] <dael> tantek: The reason it's not is it already has bounced a lot and I spent time working on the new process. I understand that the WG is now on the new process.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: We move them at the first opp.
# [18:36] * astearns expects to see a Ms3ger soon
# [18:36] <fantasai> q+ dbaron
# [18:36] * sgalineau 36mn later....
# [18:36] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:36] <dael> tantek: Okay. That's why I wanted to focus on the new process, but I did that too long. I'm sorry. I'm back.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: dbaron i on the q
# [18:37] <dael> dbaron: We should wrap up.
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: This is more controversial than I though. I prep comments to bikeshed the spec. I'd like to push that through and then we work as you desc onward.
# [18:37] <dael> tantek: I'm okay with that.
# [18:37] * Ms2ger astearns MsLiving Standardger
# [18:37] <tantek> thank you Florian
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: Okay, we have an agreement.
# [18:37] <Florian> s/comments/commits/
# [18:37] <dael> Topic: Exclusions and Position
# [18:38] <tantek> and thank you glazou for permitting an agreement between Florian and myself
# [18:38] <dael> gregwhitworth: That was from rossen and he converted them to bikeshed and made editorial changes. That's what I know. If you have comments, let me know, but he wanted to get it on the agenda.
# [18:38] <tantek> Ms2ger: are you volunteering to edit CSS-UI The Living Specification?
# [18:38] <dael> gregwhitworth: That's it.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Comments?
# [18:38] * Ms2ger will do no such thing
# [18:38] <andreyr> I am in favor
# [18:38] <dael> astearns: I'm in favor
# [18:38] <Florian> +1
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: Me too.
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: obj?
# [18:39] <dbaron> what's in this new draft?
# [18:39] <dael> RESOLVED: New WD for Exclusions and Position
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: pseudo-elements
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Do we have a resolution on the editorship of CSS3 UI?
# [18:39] <tantek> let Florian talk
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Is Florian added?
# [18:39] <tantek> please fantasai
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: Not as an editor. They will discuss how they will work together.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: We have discussed.
# [18:40] <tantek> Florian go ahead
# [18:40] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: I am added as a lvl 4 editor, not to lvl 3. tantek will work on that and I'll orward what's needed to him. I'll publish what I've already prep for 3.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: tantek Is that a correct desc?
# [18:41] <dael> tantek: I agree and further commit to reducing any overhead in moving forward
# [18:42] <dael> RESOLVED: Add Florian as a CSS UI level 4 editor, not to level 3 and they will work together on publishing the pieces that Florian already prepared for lvl 3
# [18:42] <dael> glazou: tantek does that resolution work for you?
# [18:42] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014OctDec/0104.html says that the edits to css-position are migration to bikeshed and editorial fixes (typos and broken links)
# [18:42] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0188.html
# [18:42] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014OctDec/0090.html says that the edits to css-exclusions are migration to bikeshed and editorial fixes (mostly typos and broken links)
# [18:42] <dael> tantek: And you wanted to record the changes to level 3? Oh, yes, okay.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: There's some issues. adding grammer error and filling error was discussed, but there was no resolution.
# [18:43] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [18:43] <dael> dbaron: Do we want these spec, ro something more generic?
# [18:43] <dbaron> ... for named selections
# [18:43] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:44] <dbaron> s/filling error/::spelling-error/
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: I think we disc that there would be more generic, but these two would need to be hard coded. We could share syntax with margin error, but it makes sense to put these by themselves. I'm open to other ideas.
# [18:44] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/margin error/functional notation/
# [18:44] * tantek who is typing with background noise?
# [18:44] * tantek thank you :)
# [18:44] <dael> s/grammer error/::grammar-error
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/themselves/themselves, like ::selection/
# [18:44] <tantek> I'm confused too
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: What is the current question being asked?
# [18:45] * fantasai did not hear the quesiton
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: A FPWD for psuedo-element.
# [18:45] <fantasai> Question is: Do we add ::grammar-error and ::spelling-error
# [18:45] <andreyr> I vote yes
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: Right now about grammar and spelling error
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: My answer tot hat is yes if it inc security.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: Do we need it for FPWD?
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: It's better to have it if we know it's wanted.
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: What if it was more generic? A way to just control the color of the squiggle, no matter how it's used. I can think of other ways to use it.
# [18:46] <tantek> that's not me
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: You can style squiggle with text decoration.
# [18:46] <tantek> I'm muted
# [18:46] <dael> s/tantek/??
# [18:47] * dbaron wasn't sure if it was glenn or gregw
# [18:47] * tantek who is editing [css-pseudo] ?
# [18:47] * fantasai is
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: So I would say it should be in FPWD since we roughly know how to spec and it's good to have it there.
# [18:47] <Bert> (I agree with Florian: a note about security would be good in the FPWD.)
# [18:47] <dael> andreyr: I concur.
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: So it seems we won't pub FPWD right now.
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [18:47] * Parts: Bo_Campbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [18:47] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: it was me
# [18:47] <tantek> I also agree with Florian re: a note about security would be good in the FPWD
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: So no FPWD until we add the security thing for ::spelling-erro and ::grammar-error
# [18:47] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0126.html
# [18:48] <dael> Topic: Restructuring CSS Generated Content
# [18:48] * Florian tantek: editors are fantasai, glazou, asteams. Theoretically tab as well, but he's not acted on it
# [18:48] * tantek Florian thanks.
# [18:48] <glazou> tantek: original authors are astearns and myself
# [18:48] <dael> dauwhe: It has a WD from 2003. We res in Sophia to move some of GCPM here and res it and I want general permission to apply the last 11 years of history to this draft where, for ex, counters and numbering have thier own spec.
# [18:49] * tantek remembers this draft from 2003. *shudder*
# [18:49] <ChrisL> +1
# [18:49] <dael> dauwhe: I had contacted the old editors and they're willing to become former editor. I'm bikeshedding and getting it closer to current, so I want to make sure there's no obj to this large scale taring up of the spec.
# [18:49] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: No obj. I think it's a great thing.
# [18:49] <tantek> +1 and appreciate that dauwhe explicitly contacted former editors
# [18:49] <dael> dauwhe: Since this has the content prop itself we'll need to deal with related issues here eventually.
# [18:49] <ChrisL> GCNPM?
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: So obj to the proposed plan?
# [18:49] <tantek> thank you dauwhe for that
# [18:49] * leaverou gotta drop early, sorry!
# [18:49] <fantasai> dauwhe++
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: I think it makes alot of sense.
# [18:49] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: Do we need to go through the A-H list on the e-mail?
# [18:50] <ChrisL> q+
# [18:50] * Zakim sees dbaron, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:50] <dbaron> q-
# [18:50] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:50] <dael> dauwhe: I think they're mostly fine. A lot of these are obvious. If small scale issues appear we can discuss on calls or list as needed.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: I think E & F need resolutions.
# [18:50] <dael> dauwhe: I'm not ready for substantive conversations on those. I want them in the awareness.
# [18:50] <tantek> dauwhe: btw re: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-content/#content specifically 'icon' value - no one has implemented it
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: So obj to the global plan?
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: I think it's great.
# [18:51] <ChrisL> q?
# [18:51] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <Bert> (I like Dave's plan)
# [18:51] <andreyr> no objection
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: I object to NOT doing it.
# [18:51] <tantek> dauwhe: I had initially proposed that ('icon' value, and icon property), and it was in CSS3-UI, but am dropping from there, and am ok with you keeping it in css-content if you wish, but also ok with you dropping it. Up to you.
# [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: Given that this is so old, it should be a FPWD as far as patent policy.
# [18:52] <dael> RESOLVED: Proceed as outlined by dauwhe for Generated Content and continue conversing on the ML
# [18:52] <dael> Topic: Host for 'content' property
# [18:52] <dael> astearns: It sounds like I was wrong and we plan on having it apply outside pseudo-elements, so it shouldn't move.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: We mean to attempt it.
# [18:52] <dael> dauwhe: I hope it succeeds. I'm so used to it for formatted.
# [18:53] <dael> astearns: So the arguement that what I put in the pseudo draft should go in content as well.
# [18:53] <dael> dauwhe: Yes.
# [18:54] <dael> dbaron: one of the big issues is how it effects resource loading nad performance of getting them started quickly b/c one of the things authors are concerned about is getting the important things moving along the network quickly. If you have to load all the CSS before you retrive images, it's a big obsticle.
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: +1 to dbaron and the consiquence is that authors either won't use the method or they'll use and alt no matter how hacky. If you want this to work it must give them the sort of control dbaron is talking abou.
# [18:55] <dael> astearns: And I think there would be a big content-style seperation arguement.
# [18:55] <dael> dbaron: Many of the use cases were for having CSS desc a markup lang, not actual things authors would use. We're less interested in CSS being a complete desc in how HTML works and part of that is the complexity of resource loading.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Should we continue this or move on to something else for four minutes?
# [18:56] * ChrisL resolved: css to become a styling language
# [18:56] * tantek lol ChrisL
# [18:56] <dael> dauwhe: I'm not sure we have the last five minutes on something big.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: One of mine is short.
# [18:56] <Florian> http://www.w3.org/mid/FD5224A3-309C-4B65-BD71-D50D4F0314BC@rivoal.net
# [18:56] <dael> Topic: Florian's short one (linked below)
# [18:56] * dauwhe hr { content: '* * *' }
# [18:56] <tantek> +1 agreed with Florian's proposal
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: There's a non-nromative statement that we should fix. Regarding the hover pseudo when the label is hovered the control is also in the hover for HTML
# [18:57] <dael> glazou: So there's an issue and it will be fixed.
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I've got a topic for selections.
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I ran some tests on where ::selection inherits from. 1 is from parent, 2 from originating element, and 1 where it's diff for BG and color.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: I wanted to ask impl which behavior they pref so we can spec it.
# [18:58] <dbaron> I can't even load this issue into my head in 2 minutes.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: Don't have to answer now, but I'd like an answer at some point.
# [18:58] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0188.html
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: We should do that on the ML.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: The discussion is here (above). I'm not expecting and answer now.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: Thank you. Anything else in the last minute?
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:58] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aadd
# [18:58] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:58] <Zakim> -KeshavP
# [18:58] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SGalineau
# [18:58] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: Okay. Sorry the first issue took so long. Thank you and talk to yo next week.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [18:58] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:58] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:58] <Zakim> -??P49
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dael
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# [18:59] <Zakim> - +1.212.617.aaee
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:59] <krit> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:59] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
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# [19:05] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, murakami, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.479.764.aaaa, Florian, plinss, gregwhitworth, dael, dauwhe, smfr, +1.631.398.aacc, glazou, alex_antennahouse, SimonSapin, murakami, [IPcaller], Stearns, Bert,
# [19:05] <Zakim> ... fantasai, SGalineau, SteveZ, dbaron, +1.415.832.aadd, Lea, KeshavP, +1.212.617.aaee, ChrisL
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# [19:49] <tantek> Florian do you have a few minutes? I wanted to double-check with you that capturing issues on the CSSWG wiki for CSS-UI (3 and 4) works for you
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# [19:50] <tantek> oops - looks like my IRC client had a userlist lag.
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# [23:40] <bcampbell> Hello, is this channel monitored outside of meetings?
# [23:40] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [23:41] <bcampbell> Ok, thank you. I'm new to the group and it was suggested that I send an introduction email out to the group. I also wanted to begin a conversation about flexbox in regard to tab index
# [23:42] <bcampbell> I'm assuming I do both of these with emails to the wg email address?
# [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yes. Note: use the *public* email address - www-style@w3.org
# [23:42] <dholbert> email www-style, yup
# [23:42] <TabAtkins> Your introduction can go to the private one.
# [23:42] <TabAtkins> *Should* go to the private one, rather.
# [23:42] <dauwhe> bcampbell: I did see your introductory email. Don't know why glazou didn't.
# [23:42] <bcampbell> Ok, public is on display on the website, I take it?
# [23:43] <TabAtkins> bcampbell: It's on display in lots of places, including in our spec headers.
# [23:43] <bcampbell> Ok, thank you. Hmm, so maybe I don't need to send another, if you did see it.
# [23:44] <dauwhe> bcampbell: Oh, and welcome to the group! :)
# [23:45] <bcampbell> Thanks! I'm very honored to be a part of it and look forward to being involved.
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# [23:46] <tantek> welcome bcampbell!
# [23:46] <tantek> and yes, many of us stay on this IRC channel outside of any formal meetings.
# [23:46] <bcampbell> Okay, excellent. I was feeling a bit isolated. This will help.
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Btw, if you do have a question for the room, just ask it - never ask if anyone's around before asking the question. I refuse to answer to existence queries on principle. ^_^
# [23:47] <tantek> just look out for the sheep
# [23:47] <bcampbell> Haha ok
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> (I'm always in the room, due to IRCCloud, but may not actually see something for hours.)
# [23:47] <bcampbell> Are there profiles in any location to get to know who is on here?
# [23:48] <bcampbell> I hear voices and see nicks, but don't really know who is talking and from what context, etc.
# [23:48] <tantek> bcampbell there's https://www.w3.org/wiki/Irc-people
# [23:48] <tantek> feel free to add yourself there
# [23:48] <bcampbell> Perfect, I will, thanks.
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> bcampbell: It's hard to hook things together until you see us in person, too. Come to a f2f!
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> Our next one is in Sydney in February. ^_^
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> Perfect beach weather!
# [23:50] <tantek> hmm
# [23:50] <tantek> are you going early TabAtkins ?
# [23:50] <bcampbell> I know. I was a last minute add to TPAC and was only there on Thurs/Friday. I quickly realized this morning how nice it would have been to know everyone in person.
# [23:50] <TabAtkins> I'll be there a little early, I think, to do some work with the people in the office. I'll be there late for SVG too.
# [23:50] <bcampbell> I'd love to go to Sidney, but I don't see that approval coming easily for me.
# [23:51] * tantek checks the dates
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> Then, the May New York meeting might be easier for you. ^_^
# [23:52] <tantek> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> Or, if you're a European, the August meeting will be somewhere in Europe.
# [23:52] <bcampbell> California
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> Then New York's the ticket, I suppose.
# [23:53] <tantek> and the AB meeting is 11-12 Feb 2015.
# [23:53] <bcampbell> yes, though, May in NY would be easier as we have offices in the area.
# [23:53] <dauwhe> everything you need to know about this group is on the web: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/
# [23:53] <tantek> ok, I'm going to try to find a red-eye from Sydney on the night of the 10th to Tokyo
# [23:53] <bcampbell> ha, wow, glad I poked my head in here!
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's about time for me to book my Sydney flights. prices'll start rising soon.
# [23:54] <tantek> hence why I asked
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# [23:54] <tantek> I'm thinking of going early to have some time in/around Sydney
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> I'd recommend it.
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> It's a fun city.
# [23:55] <tantek> TabAtkins: cool. I may base my decision on how early on what others do too
# [23:55] <tantek> also - if there's a chance of an airbnb
# [23:55] <TabAtkins> I haven't rented a place in Sydney before. I'll look into doing so.
# Session Close: Thu Nov 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)