/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-11-26 / end

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  13. # [01:30] <plinss> TabAtkins: not sure which krit means, but I’ve been improving the spec parser’s handling of SVG1 and picked up a bunch more dfn types. At one point it was too agressive and had a bunch of duplicates. Should be good now.
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  71. # [13:39] <Florian> Any writing mode expert online? (fantasai, koji ...)
  72. # [13:40] <zcorpan> do we expect any other group to meet in Sydney the same week we have the css meeting?
  73. # [13:41] <Florian> I think there was svg as well, but I am not 100% sure
  74. # [13:42] <Florian> 'cursor: auto' should give a 'text' cursor over horizontal text, and a 'vertical-text' cursor over vertical text. What is the right terminology to hook from for normative text?
  75. # [13:43] <Florian> computed value of the writing mode property? something else?
  76. # [13:43] <Florian> 'writing mode' as a properly defined term?
  77. # [13:43] <Florian> (does that take TCY into account?)
  78. # [13:45] <ed> zcorpan: yes, svg is scheduled to meet in sydney the same week, and there's some overlap for fx topics
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  80. # [13:53] <SimonSapin_> Florian: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#horizontal-writing-mode is a proper definition (and same for vertical), but it doesn’t account for TCY
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  82. # [13:56] <Florian> SimonSapin: Yes, that's my impression
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  114. # [17:39] * glazou changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/ - 2014-11-26 telcon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0528.html'
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  116. # [17:39] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  117. # [17:39] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
  118. # [17:39] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  119. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  128. # [17:52] <glazou> hi dwim
  129. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  130. # [17:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  131. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  132. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Florian
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  135. # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou
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  137. # [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
  138. # [17:57] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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  142. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  143. # [17:59] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth
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  145. # [17:59] <Zakim> +BradK
  146. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
  147. # [17:59] <antenna> that's me 631.398.aaaa no mic
  148. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P7
  149. # [18:00] <tantek> zakim, ??p7 is me
  150. # [18:00] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  151. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is antenna
  152. # [18:00] <Zakim> +antenna; got it
  153. # [18:00] <antenna> <-- angelo @antenna
  154. # [18:00] <tantek> zakim, angelo is in antenna
  155. # [18:00] <Zakim> +angelo; got it
  156. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
  157. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aabb
  158. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss
  159. # [18:01] <MaRakow> zakim, aabb is me
  160. # [18:01] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
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  162. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dbaron
  163. # [18:02] * krit “This passcode is not valid”… hm
  164. # [18:02] <Zakim> +krit
  165. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  166. # [18:03] * krit calling in again helped :P
  167. # [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  168. # [18:03] <Zakim> +astearns
  169. # [18:03] * dbaron has that happen nearly half the time, but not today
  170. # [18:03] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  171. # [18:03] <fantasai> Zakim, IPCaller is me
  172. # [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  173. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P17
  174. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  175. # [18:04] * fantasai :)
  176. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P17 is me
  177. # [18:04] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  178. # [18:04] <alex_antennahouse> I'm 2nd ipcaller I think
  179. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> Hi
  180. # [18:04] <dael> glazou: I saw a few additions from Florian.
  181. # [18:04] <dael> Florian: Yep.
  182. # [18:04] <tantek> Zakim, [IPcaller] is alex_antennahouse
  183. # [18:04] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
  184. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Let me get them on my screen. Since we have tantek and Florian we can start there. Are there other extra beyond what Florian sent?
  185. # [18:05] <dael> Topic: New WD for CSS Transforms
  186. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P19
  187. # [18:05] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm all for it.
  188. # [18:05] <dael> dauwhe: Sure.
  189. # [18:05] <dbaron> +1
  190. # [18:05] <dauwhe> s/dauwhe/???/
  191. # [18:05] <tantek> +1
  192. # [18:05] <adenilson> Zakim, ?P19 is me.
  193. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named '?P19'
  194. # [18:05] <Florian> s/???/florian/
  195. # [18:05] <andreyr> +1
  196. # [18:05] <dael> krit: Are the obj since we discussed transform styles at the last f2f. We still have issues in the spec. I shouldn't be a huge issue, but people may want to wait. I'd like a new WD to reflect the changes we have.
  197. # [18:05] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P19 is me.
  198. # [18:05] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
  199. # [18:06] <dael> MaRakow: I'm still concerned about the implications of some changes, but I haven't gotten a chance to look at it
  200. # [18:06] <dael> fantasai: Do you want to reiew and publish next week?
  201. # [18:06] <dael> MaRakow: I'd prefer that.
  202. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  203. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: So any comments becides MaRakow?
  204. # [18:06] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  205. # [18:07] <dael> action everyone review for next week
  206. # [18:07] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  207. # [18:07] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  208. # [18:07] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  209. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  210. # [18:07] <dael> Topic: Fixed position creating a new stacking context.
  211. # [18:07] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0384.html
  212. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  213. # [18:08] <dael> gregwhitworth: You can see the link in the agenda. 2 years ago Rossen_ and I talked and we were going to make the change and see if we got egergious issues. We're going to go ahead and make the switch so our enterprise customers will say if there's problems. It would be good to get a resolution.
  214. # [18:08] <dael> ??: You want a resolution first?
  215. # [18:08] <dbaron> s/??/Florian/
  216. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aacc
  217. # [18:08] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aacc is me
  218. # [18:08] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  219. # [18:08] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  220. # [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: We'll flight the solution...It would be good to discuss and see what the area is where we want to be. We don't want to go back and forth between stacking context and not. It's hard to gauge what blinkand webkit intend to do.
  221. # [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I haven't been able to talk to the implementor, but I suspect we want to have it. I think maybe Jacob Rossi...one of our impl said it makes it easier. I have to check the thread.
  222. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: smfr sent a message just recently saying webkit has no plan to change in the forseeable future.
  223. # [18:09] <dbaron> I'd be hesitant to agree firmly to change the spec before you've done the experiment, but I'm fine with you doing the experiment and seeing how it goes, with the idea that we'll change the spec if it goes well.
  224. # [18:10] <dael> gregwhitworth: I think us flighting will help the discussion. Webkit and blink might not get bugs but we may. We'll flight it and we can come back, I want to get the discussion going. It would be good to look back once we get it tested and get a full solution.
  225. # [18:10] <dael> gregwhitworth: Does gecko have opinions?
  226. # [18:11] <dael> dbaron: I just wrote I'm hesitant to agree to change the spec pre-expirament, but I think you should do the experiment and we'll cahnge if it works. We want to know if it's a compat improvement to do it.
  227. # [18:11] <dael> gregwhitworth: Sounds good.
  228. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this? Is it done?
  229. # [18:11] <dael> astearns: gregwhitworth you're talking about changing so the first ex is a blue sq?
  230. # [18:11] <astearns> s/astearns/tantek/
  231. # [18:11] <dael> gregwhitworth: Yep. It would create a stacking context essentially.
  232. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Can we move on?
  233. # [18:12] <dael> group: yes.
  234. # [18:12] <dael> glazou: I suggest we do item 3 before moving on to CSS3 UI
  235. # [18:12] <dael> Topic: extend :matches() to pseudo elements
  236. # [18:12] <dael> glazou: This created a long discussion because someone from webkit already implemented. Before we discuss the mobile, I'd like to understand why we would do it.
  237. # [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: The use case is like that of matches, but withouth the :matches pseudo it's hard to do. So like with out spec style sheets I can use matches, but I have to repeat it for the before and after.
  238. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.519.208.aadd
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  240. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I think it's effectively a syntatic element. You can write the selectors in such a way that it should work. There's not reason not to make it a pseduo element, but we have to be careful to make sure th syntatic constraints are there fore short hand as well as long hand.
  241. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins you were having trouble writing it, it should be hard we can do that together.
  242. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/a syntactic element/syntactic sugar/
  243. # [18:14] <dael> glazou: Any other opinions? Everyone okay with extending?
  244. # [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Or having the functionality in some form.
  245. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/write the selectors/write the selectors longhand/
  246. # [18:14] <dael> dbaron: I'd want to catch up and see the proposal, but it sounds reasonable.
  247. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: Okay than.
  248. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> +1 with what fantasai said, keep the same constraints as when written the long form
  249. # [18:15] <fantasai> s/writing it/speccing it/
  250. # [18:15] <dael> RESOLVED: extend :matches() to pseudo-elements
  251. # [18:15] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  252. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: We have two other things on selectors.
  253. # [18:16] <tantek> let's keep going with selectors
  254. # [18:16] <dael> Florian: 2 of the things I have are selectors related
  255. # [18:16] <dael> Topic: specificity of :matches() inside :not()
  256. # [18:16] <fantasai> s/in such a way/to be equivalent in such a way/
  257. # [18:16] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0530.html
  258. # [18:16] <fantasai> s/should work/should work exactly the same/
  259. # [18:16] <fantasai> s/make it/make it accept/
  260. # [18:16] <dael> glazou: So Benjamin asked about this and he has a weird explination. The two definitions colide and it's hard to understand what to do
  261. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: THe definitnion of matches talks about which sleector matches. If you nest inside a not he's aguaing that none of them match so you can't get any specificity. And wrapping two nots does something really weird with specificity.
  262. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: So he says when this happens, pretend it's the most specific one.
  263. # [18:17] <dael> dbaron: This sounds right to me.
  264. # [18:17] <tantek> this sounds like a good spec clarification
  265. # [18:17] <dael> fantasai: Also me. It's making :matches() behave like the longhand which is how it should be.
  266. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> +1 for most specific
  267. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Using :matches() like the e0mails doesn't add anything. For continuity, even if you nest inside the large sleector inside a :not we should act similarly.
  268. # [18:18] <dael> RESOLVED: The specifictiy of a :matches inside a :not is the specificity of the most specific
  269. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: Can one of the editors replyo n the list?
  270. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  271. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: There's the last one, that's Florian. We can go as you wish.
  272. # [18:19] <dael> Topic: :has() focus
  273. # [18:19] <dbaron> where's Florian's long list of stuff?
  274. # [18:19] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0271.html
  275. # [18:19] * Joins: SteveZ_ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  276. # [18:20] <dael> Florian: The :hover and :active pseudo match on more them themselves, they also attach to other things and piece shadow. The :fcosu pseudo doesn't do this and we prob can't change for backwards compat.
  277. # [18:20] <dael> Florian: It would be useful so I suggested a new :has-focus which would propigate through ancestors.
  278. # [18:20] <fantasai> I think we also don't want to change that, since you want to know exactly what's in focus
  279. # [18:21] <dael> Florian: There's fairly obvious use cases, if you have a form and want to highlight it you can't do it without JS right now. Same thing if you want to go through a shadow-DOM. Since we can't change focus, I suggest introducing this.
  280. # [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I think we don't want to change :focus.
  281. # [18:21] <dael> Florian: We can't, but we want something that does the same with the extention.
  282. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I think there's reasons why you'd want to go up the ancestors and reasons why you wouldn't. I think it's a good idea to add this because it handles a lot of use cases.
  283. # [18:22] <dael> Florian: Also some people suggested we didn't need it because it was handled by :has, but it doesn't piece shadow barriars unless you specifically make it do so.
  284. # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Agreed.
  285. # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I think :hasfocus, I'm not sure about the label propigation, I'd prefer that via :focus, but if this is an ancestor foa focus eleemnt it matches.
  286. # [18:23] <Zakim> +vivien
  287. # [18:23] <dael> Florian: Opening the possibility for the host language to match is appropriate, but if it should do the same is a slightly different conversation. Opening the possiblity is appropraite and we can leave :focus as is since it's got a long history of baskwards compat.
  288. # [18:23] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  289. # [18:24] * Bert excuses for being late. Was talking to somebody.
  290. # [18:24] <dael> tantek: I have a concern about confusion from webdev. You learn about :has, :focus and :has-focus doesn't do what you think it would from the pieces. Having it named like that would be confusing.
  291. # [18:24] <dael> Florian: I'm happy to bikeshed. It's been called focus-within and others. I'm not attached to the name.
  292. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: I think I agree with tantek. It should fucntion like :has and :focus if it that :has-focus as a name.
  293. # [18:25] <glazou> s/like :has and :focus/:has(:focus)
  294. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: I think that it's okay for it to also piece shadows, I don't htink it's okay for the host lang to customize :has except through customizing :focus
  295. # [18:26] <dael> Florian: I'm a bt confused. Are you saying it should be unfocused directly?
  296. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: If the host language want to change it changes through :focus and can't change :has-focus. It's a general prinicpal I'd want, but the name makes it more important.
  297. # [18:26] <dael> tantek: You want to minimize the number of points between specs. If you use how the host lang uses :focus, that's the hook for the host language.
  298. # [18:27] <fantasai> s/can't change :has-focus except in that it is defined in terms of :focus/
  299. # [18:27] <fantasai> s/points/interface points/
  300. # [18:27] <dael> Florian: So if the host lang can modify :focus, that's get. If not I'd like to introduce it on the new thing, no matter the name. It currently does on :active, not on :focus. :focus just matches the focus thing.
  301. # [18:27] <dael> Florian: That's why I'm trying to introduce this on the expanded focus.
  302. # [18:27] * glazou suggest HocusFocus
  303. # [18:28] <dael> tantek: I'd rather allow a hook on :focus that's reused instead of saying you can hook into :has-focus.
  304. # [18:28] <dael> Florian: If we can I'd prefer that too.
  305. # [18:28] <dael> fantasai: Is this the label thing? I think there's no backwards compat issue, just impl issues.
  306. # [18:28] <dael> tantek: Can we re-use the hook on :active?
  307. # [18:29] <dael> Florian: We can try and say it's the same hook as :active if there's no backwards compat. If we can do that that's best.
  308. # [18:29] * glazou Hook and HocusFocus seem perfectly in line to me :-)
  309. # [18:29] * fantasai lol
  310. # [18:29] <dael> Florian: Should we try and resolve on that? So we resolve that we use the hook on :Active for :focus and we create a new element that is like :focus but piecerece shadows
  311. # [18:29] <dael> tantek: If you're looking for a name to use :focus-within works.
  312. # [18:30] * Quits: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  313. # [18:30] <dael> Florian: Especially if we're using the hook on :focus.
  314. # [18:30] <dael> tantek: And we can bikeshed on that.
  315. # [18:30] * Joins: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak)
  316. # [18:30] <Florian> resolution: reuse the hook from :active on :focus
  317. # [18:31] <Florian> resolution: define a new :focus-within that matches on the same things as :focus, plus parents, including if there are shadow doms
  318. # [18:31] <dael> Florian: Alright.
  319. # [18:31] <tantek> sounds reasonable
  320. # [18:31] <dael> glazou: No obj on those two resolutions?
  321. # [18:31] <vollick> sgtm
  322. # [18:31] <dael> glazou: Adopted! Let's move on.
  323. # [18:32] <dael> Florian: The other topic is related to this. Cureently the hook on :active and the def of :hover both propigate from the label to the labeled control, but not backward. If the control is active the pseudo won't match on the label. I think it's better to go both ways.
  324. # [18:33] <dael> Florian: I raised that on whatwg and there were few answers. The answers was that one direction is 1-1, but the other was 1to many.
  325. # [18:33] <dael> gregwhitworth: We ran internal tests and we've never had issues regarding this. The math works, but in the real world you won't hit this problem. I ran something with 5k div iside a label and it was only milliseconds difference, so I don't think it's a problem
  326. # [18:34] <tantek> curious what dbaron thinks about this
  327. # [18:34] <dael> Florian: In gerenal it makes sense in both directions. Now that the hooks are sep we might want to decide sep
  328. # [18:34] <dbaron> I don't particularly care.
  329. # [18:34] <dael> glazou: Other thoughts?
  330. # [18:34] <tantek> then I'm willing to go with consensus as well
  331. # [18:34] <tantek> no strong bias
  332. # [18:34] <dael> fantasai: I think having it go in both idrections make sense.
  333. # [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree as well.
  334. # [18:35] <dael> Florian: So we should go back to the whatwg and say the CSS group agrees it should work both ways.
  335. # [18:35] <Zakim> -adenilson
  336. # [18:35] <Florian> resolution: both :hover and :active should propagate from the labeled control to the label, in addition to the other direction
  337. # [18:36] <dael> glazou: no objections?
  338. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P19
  339. # [18:36] <dael> [silence]
  340. # [18:36] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P19 is me.
  341. # [18:36] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
  342. # [18:36] <dael> action Florian to ping the whatwg on the above resolution
  343. # [18:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  344. # [18:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-662 - Ping the whatwg on the above resolution [on Florian Rivoal - due 2014-12-03].
  345. # [18:36] <dael> Florian: So to css3-ui or finish the agenda?
  346. # [18:36] <dael> glazou: We finished the reg agenda
  347. # [18:36] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0425.html
  348. # [18:36] <dael> Topic: CSS3-UI issues
  349. # [18:37] <dael> Florian: This is the first comment, it was half of a change. Did you forget the other half or decide not to do it?
  350. # [18:37] <dael> tantek: Likely accidental. I was trying to be conservative with the edits, but that was prob unintended.
  351. # [18:37] <dael> tantek: So this was line-box. I'm reading.
  352. # [18:37] <dael> Florian: So basically do we overflow onto the float?
  353. # [18:38] <dael> tantek: The suggestion is reasonable. I can make the change. I guess I just didn't make the edit.
  354. # [18:38] <dael> Florian: I have no opinion. Just trying to guess why you didn't do it. Browsers are interop along the current spec. The question would be to impl would you make the change if we spec it?
  355. # [18:38] <dael> Florian: It seems reasonable, but we're interop in another way currently
  356. # [18:39] <dael> Florian: If you have text overflow ellipsis and we're overflowing onto the float, does the text overlap or do we apply the ellipsis
  357. # [18:39] <dael> Florian: Currently the spec says you overwrite. Everyone does according to text.
  358. # [18:39] * krit is there a list of UI issues that we are going to discuss today?
  359. # [18:40] <dael> tantek: I think gecko would change to have the better. There's aspects that are interop, but things like handlingscrolling aren't. So do we look at this as a forward looking chage, or is it a compat issue?
  360. # [18:40] <dael> Florian: If browsers will change I'm happy
  361. # [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: With this edge case, and it's very edge, from a usablility pov, let's say you apply the ellipsis, but if your text is colliding, how would you scroll that? I'm assuming in that test case you can't scroll, so why would you hide?
  362. # [18:41] <dael> tantek: So that you don't overlap and have it look ugly.
  363. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> https://bug944200.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=8340052
  364. # [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: How can youg et to that case? Do you have a test case that shows it? I just can't picture how the text would overlap with the float. Unless this is a bug, the float for the text should be one over the other.
  365. # [18:41] <Florian> https://bug944200.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=8339998
  366. # [18:42] <dael> tantek: I think the test case from TabAtkins Is the right.
  367. # [18:42] <dael> Florian: Yes. We're talking about the third line
  368. # [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: The one that you just pasted?
  369. # [18:42] <dael> Florian: The third line in TabAtkins's linked example
  370. # [18:43] <dael> tantek: In this case the third line, what happening is the text is overriding...normally text would wrap around the float. It's only overlapping because the white-space no wrap.
  371. # [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: Yes, I see. I missed that part.
  372. # [18:43] <dael> Florian: So what we're currently seeing is by spec. We're preopsing a change
  373. # [18:44] <dael> tantek: Rather than drop the visable req, there's something else causing the overflow. That's why we should consider the case. Or the line box has a whitespace that deosn't allow wrapping, we're basically talking about condtions where the text can't overflow.
  374. # [18:44] <dael> Florian: I think that's already addressed by the spec. I think so.
  375. # [18:44] <dael> tantek: I didn't think it was but okay.
  376. # [18:44] <dael> tantek: This seems deeper than we thought it would be. It sounds like the spec change to make this req more itterations.
  377. # [18:44] <dael> Florian: Take it back to the list?
  378. # [18:45] <dael> tantek: Does that seem reasonable? The whitespace no-wrap relationship should be well understood.
  379. # [18:45] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0445.html
  380. # [18:45] <dael> Florian: That is, but the float bit needs to be looked at. Back to the list. Next one?
  381. # [18:45] <dael> tantek: Sorry, I though that would be easy.
  382. # [18:46] <dael> Florian: Still on overflowing. This is issue 37. We have it speced that the resize applies to non-visable overflow and if that's the case in only one dir it applies in only 1 dir. But you can't have that in only 1 dir because everyone is interop that if you have overflow in 1 dir visable is auto.
  383. # [18:46] <dael> Rossen_: Anything other than that behavior would be a nightmare to impl.
  384. # [18:47] <dael> Florian: I'm suggesting we remove that bit since it's trying to hook into something that diesn't happen. If we have visable in only one direction we have auto, so visable in only one direction doesn't happen.
  385. # [18:47] <dael> fantasai: It's a case that doesn't happen.
  386. # [18:47] <dael> tantek: So we need to say something else
  387. # [18:47] <dael> Florian: So I proposed a note that ssyas it's not possible, but if later that becomes possible we'll need to define the behviour
  388. # [18:47] <dael> tantek: So we apply both directions?
  389. # [18:48] <dael> Florian: Yes. Currently the spec pretends there's another possibility
  390. # [18:48] <dael> tantek: I agree with TabAtkins that we drop with no note.
  391. # [18:48] <dael> fantasai: We have a case that's slightly different where there's regions where you paginate in one dir and scroll in the other. That's a case to think about
  392. # [18:49] <dael> Florian: For regions the frag isn't on the overflow prop. even if you're fragmenting you only have one direction. There's no need for something special. For overflow fragments, the spec isn't stable and we don't know what will happen.
  393. # [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: I agree. Regions, the only extra constraint is how much content you have, not what happens with content layout. I don't think we can get in situtuations where one direction overflow is visable and the other one it's not
  394. # [18:50] <dael> Rossen_: So dropping this?
  395. # [18:50] <dael> Florian: That's my rec and add a note if someone is concerned
  396. # [18:50] <dael> Rossen_: I'm up for it.
  397. # [18:50] <dael> glazou: Everyone agrees?
  398. # [18:50] <dael> RESOLVED: Drop the text
  399. # [18:50] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0449.html
  400. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> Florian, http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/662 lacks some context
  401. # [18:51] <dael> Florian: The spec doesn't put any constraints on the outline offset, so you can put it -9000 which isn't interop. There's been discussion, but no conclusion. There's no reason to forbid small negative, it's only a problem when the outline smashes into itself.
  402. # [18:52] <dael> Florian: The option C in the e-mail isn't great. Another is when it slams into itself, but you preserve 1px or the entire thickness whichi s my favorite.
  403. # [18:52] <dael> tantek: What do impl do?
  404. # [18:52] <dael> Florian: Disagree. In Chrome it disappears, in FF if you have 1 px outline it has a large black area. so a 10px high box and a -9000 offset, you get a 1000px black thing. It's not interop
  405. # [18:53] <fantasai> s/outline it/outline and large negative offset it/
  406. # [18:53] <dael> Rossen_: The outline offset to me, resonable behavior to expect is if you consider the content box and border box you use padding to offset them and that lets you move the border box from the content. We don't allow negative padding, I don't see a reason that outline offset shouldn't be considered the same way. Once you distance outline box from padding box, I don't think why you'd want to constraing inside.
  407. # [18:54] <dael> Florian: So no negative value?
  408. # [18:54] <dael> Rossen_: Yes.
  409. # [18:54] * fantasai thinks we should constrain the dimensions of the interior area and any subset therein to be always non-negative
  410. # [18:54] <dael> Rossen_: If you draw parallels between how padding is used, it's an offset for borderbox, so outline-offiset is the same thing. We don't allow negative padding.
  411. # [18:55] <dael> tantek: It's bcause the use cases for drawing an outline are different than a border. I appriciate simplifying the model, this was deliberatly allowed.
  412. # [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I think we should say the area contasined byt hte outline is floored at 0 so you can't have overlap no matter the shape. If it's ano hourglass it might turn into a 0 width square.
  413. # [18:55] <dael> Florian: But if you start non-rectangular and shrink, I would block as soon as two sides hit eachother.
  414. # [18:56] <dael> dbaron: I'm a little worried that you're getting into defining a complex algo for an obscure case.
  415. # [18:56] <BradK> +1 on stopping the offsets once two edges touch each other
  416. # [18:56] <dael> Florian: I'm trying to define and make it not disappear because it's useful for :focus.
  417. # [18:56] * fantasai happy for UA to have higher limits
  418. # [18:56] <dael> Rossen_: tantek can you explain the major usecase you're trying to achieve?
  419. # [18:56] * fantasai e.g. letter-spacing has UA-defined limit on negative values
  420. # [18:57] <dael> tantek: Thre's UIs that have a glow where you want toverlap. I believe that's why it was introduced. I share the concern about trying to overspec and algo. We might be able to say use the metrics of the borderbox and you can't go negative beyond what would 0 out the border box?
  421. # [18:57] <dael> tantek: You can go negative intot he border box, but you can't completely elimiante it
  422. # [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: So you want the inner borderbox edge?
  423. # [18:57] <dael> tantek: It has diementions, and overall width. You devide that by 2 and that's a clamp.
  424. # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: Maybe define as not changing the outline set, but changing the outline of the shape being drawn. Right now you have various border boxes and we can say this shrinks the box you're wrapping around. if you have a non-rectangualar, the boxes your'e wrapping around shrink
  425. # [18:58] <dael> Rossen_: What do youe xactly defne as shrink?
  426. # [18:58] * glazou only Woody Allen can define a shrink
  427. # [18:58] <dael> tantek: I was trying to spec in terms of the border box.
  428. # [18:58] <tantek> computed value
  429. # [18:59] <dael> Florian: To make it more complex, presto does it diff where if you have a way to flow outside the box you can also get it non-rectangualr. Something sticksout and you draw outside that non-rectangual.
  430. # [18:59] <dael> tantek: We have no obvious solution. We need someone to make a simple prop on the ML that isn't too algo but also handles it resonably.
  431. # [19:00] <dael> Florian: So are we looking for perfect interop or just keep boxes from disappearing
  432. # [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: We want interop and please consider inline andoutline where they overlap
  433. # [19:00] <dael> Florian: And we don't have interop on outline
  434. # [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I want interop. We should have to spec limit bad things.
  435. # [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: And we want interop becuase without that there's no reason.
  436. # [19:00] * glazou guys, top of the hour, we need to wrap up
  437. # [19:01] <dael> Florian: Short of defining it, we need to make it so that it works for people trying to do common things.
  438. # [19:01] <dael> fantasai: Letter-spacing says you can do it but there's UI limits, those just aren't defined.
  439. # [19:01] <dael> tantek: We need simple limits that don't make it useless.
  440. # [19:01] <dael> Rossen_: And real examples so that we can see what reasonable means.
  441. # [19:01] <dael> Florian: I'll give it a shot and get back to the list. Rossen_ I'll send you an e-mail to help me understand IE behavior.
  442. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
  443. # [19:02] <dael> Florian: I have more, but that's next week.
  444. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
  445. # [19:02] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
  446. # [19:02] <Zakim> -adenilson
  447. # [19:02] <Zakim> -krit
  448. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  449. # [19:02] <dael> glazou: Thank you.
  450. # [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  451. # [19:02] <Zakim> -astearns
  452. # [19:02] <Zakim> -BradK
  453. # [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
  454. # [19:02] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  455. # [19:02] <Zakim> -tantek
  456. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Florian
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  458. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  459. # [19:02] <Zakim> -koji
  460. # [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
  461. # [19:02] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
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  463. # [19:02] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  464. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  465. # [19:02] <Zakim> -vivien
  466. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dael
  467. # [19:02] * dauwhe enjoy your turkeys, Americans!
  468. # [19:02] <Zakim> -antenna
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  471. # [19:02] <Zakim> - +1.519.208.aadd
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  476. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
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  478. # [19:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, SimonSapin, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  479. # [19:14] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  480. # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were Florian, glazou, dael, dauwhe, gregwhitworth, BradK, +1.631.398.aaaa, tantek, antenna, angelo, [Bloomberg], +1.206.992.aabb, plinss, MaRakow, dbaron, krit,
  481. # [19:14] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, astearns, fantasai, SimonSapin, alex_antennahouse, adenilson, Rossen_, SteveZ, koji, +1.519.208.aadd, vivien
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  494. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> plinss: Just noticed that <tspan> is being "defined" by every single example that mentions it in SVG1.
  495. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> plinss: Also, a small handful of HTML elements show up in the definitions, but most don't.
  496. # [20:39] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  497. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> plinss: (Selectors didn't fail to link most of its element autolinks before.)
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  501. # [20:58] <plinss> TabAtkins: will take a look after llunch
  502. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> np, i've force-committed for now.
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  526. # [23:22] <Florian> the latest commit I made shows up in the repo (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/) but not if you actually look at the spec
  527. # [23:22] <Florian> also, trying to see the changeset from https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/836486b48f54 gives an error page
  528. # [23:22] <Florian> actually, any changeset seems to do that
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  533. # [23:45] <plinss> Florian: sometimes dev.w3.org/csswg takes a while to update, it looks ok now
  534. # [23:46] <Florian> it does
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  536. # [23:46] <plinss> also, dvcs.w3.org/hg isn’t all that stable of a server, if it’s giving errors, check hg.csswg.org/drafts
  537. # [23:47] <Florian> you mean I can't blame it on mercurial and use that as an excuse to root for git. Damm
  538. # [23:47] <plinss> We’re probably just going to move to hg.csswg.org/drafts since Mike wants to decomission dvcs.w3.org/hg
  539. # [23:47] <plinss> ocne we move to hg.csswg.org the updates will happen a bit faster
  540. # [23:48] <plinss> also note there’s a git mirror at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts, it’s read-only for now, but when I complete the move to hg.csswg.org it will sync bidirectionally
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  543. # Session Close: Thu Nov 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)