/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-12-10 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Wed Dec 10 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:03] * Joins: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak)
# [00:10] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [01:13] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:26] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:38] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [01:57] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [02:01] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [02:04] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:04] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett
# [02:22] * Quits: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:26] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [02:35] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:48] * Quits: Rossen___ (~uid21900@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [02:49] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [03:14] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [05:12] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [06:21] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [06:21] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) (RRSAgent)
# [06:36] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [07:55] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [07:56] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [08:00] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:00] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett
# [08:02] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:32] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
# [08:42] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:47] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [09:14] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [09:28] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:45] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [09:51] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:53] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:39] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [10:56] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [10:56] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [10:59] * Joins: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [11:08] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [11:23] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:36] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [11:43] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:48] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:51] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [11:52] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [11:59] * Joins: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [12:04] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [12:19] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [12:35] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
# [12:42] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [12:49] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:49] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [12:52] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [13:00] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [13:05] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:05] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:07] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:07] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:10] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [13:13] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:16] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:18] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:19] <Florian> Are there mbox files for www-style older than 2009? that's the oldest I can find on https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/mboxes/
# [13:20] <Florian> When searching for stuff, I find local mails easier than using the web interface.
# [13:21] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:21] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [13:23] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [13:27] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [13:46] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [13:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:55] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [13:55] * Quits: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:02] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [14:02] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:27] <SimonSapin> Florian: I’ve heard of a shared gmail account that has all the www-style things, for easier searching. Maybe you can export mboxes from them. But I don’t know the name/password for this account.
# [14:27] <SimonSapin> s/them/there/
# [14:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai, sgalineau: I think you both mentioned it at some point ^
# [14:29] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:30] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:32] * Quits: lajava (~javi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:34] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, I believe the credentials are in the member-only archive
# [14:44] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:46] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [14:46] <Florian> I remember the password, not the account
# [14:48] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [15:00] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: so we need to search the archives to better search the archives? :)
# [15:00] <Ms2ger> :)
# [15:04] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [15:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:06] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:11] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [15:31] * Joins: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [15:37] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [15:50] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:06] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:11] <fantasai> SimonSapin: If you want mboxes, they're available in the archives
# [16:12] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
# [16:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Florian says only from 2009
# [16:12] <fantasai> Click on "Mailbox format"
# [16:12] <fantasai> oh
# [16:12] <fantasai> That's annoying
# [16:13] <fantasai> I have my own personal mbox which goes back to 2000 :)
# [16:13] <sgalineau> SimonSapin: yes, there is such a thing. Will email you both.
# [16:13] * fantasai wonders if the gmail account goes back further than 2009
# [16:14] <fantasai> Florian: If you can't get mboxes from the gmail account, I can email you my copy
# [16:17] <fantasai> s/Florian/SimonSapin/
# [16:17] <sgalineau> fantasai: it goes back to the beginning of wwww-style. Peter and I loaded the entire archive in it
# [16:17] <fantasai> nice
# [16:18] <SimonSapin> Florian was the one asking
# [16:18] * fantasai wishes ppl would stop CCing fantasai@ to www-style mails and use fantasai.list@ or not CC
# [16:19] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Good point. I think I need more sleep.
# [16:19] <sgalineau> Florian, SimonSapin: sent you both email with Gmail archive info
# [16:19] * fantasai cannot keep track of this conversation
# [16:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: only one way to fix that :)
# [16:20] <sgalineau> Archive starts at 8/27/95, actually. Didn't realize things went that far back.
# [16:20] <fantasai> Yes, but it's *daytime* and I'm meeting with dauwhe in NYC to work on stuff and I can't very well sleep on the train
# [16:21] * fantasai slept for 8 hours last night, but that's after two consecutive all-nighters (with 3-hour naps in between)
# [16:21] * fantasai had to resort to caffeine
# [16:25] <SimonSapin> I take timezones as non-normative
# [16:25] <sgalineau> all nighters are bad news
# [16:35] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:35] * Joins: thinkxl (~thinkxl@public.cloak)
# [16:37] * Quits: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:37] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [16:37] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [16:37] * Joins: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [16:39] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [16:48] <amtiskaw> Is it possible to get mbox archives as a non-member?
# [16:48] <amtiskaw> I've had the idea of building a fancy analytics tool for mailing list traffic for a while
# [16:49] <amtiskaw> Charting the discussion volume for various topics, contribution share from different companies, etc.
# [16:54] <plh> https://twitter.com/mrdowden/status/542706281279422464
# [16:58] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [17:03] <Florian> amtiskaw: Not that I know of. But I don't see any reason why they shouldn't, since all the content is available publicly (in less convenient format) anyway
# [17:04] <SimonSapin> amtiskaw: I asked about it before, but raw mboxes contain email headers that the public archives don’t, and that’s considered maybe sensitive
# [17:05] <SimonSapin> I think they should still be public, but that’s the reason I was told
# [17:05] <amtiskaw> SimonSapin: I see, thanks.
# [17:07] <amtiskaw> Would be nice if they were available in some way, but I guess I could write something to scrape the web archives if necessary.
# [17:13] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:17] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [17:22] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [17:22] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:22] * glazou changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/ - 2014-12-10 telcon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0152.html'
# [17:22] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
# [17:22] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
# [17:22] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/10-css-irc
# [17:22] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:22] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
# [17:23] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:24] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:24] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:25] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:25] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:25] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [17:28] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:33] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:47] * Quits: abucur___ (~sid19072@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:47] * Quits: mihnea_____ (~sid16310@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:48] * Quits: iank__ (~sid43239@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:48] * Quits: ato (~sid16069@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:48] <krit> astearns: should ellipse(at 50% 50%) to ellipse(at 70% 70%) be animate able or not? The spec says “If both shapes are the same type, that type is ellipse() or circle(), and none of the radii use the closest-side or farthest-side keywords, interpolate between each value in the shape functions."
# [17:48] * Quits: sgalineau (~sid26595@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:48] <krit> astearns: they are not specified but compute to these keywords, right?
# [17:50] <Florian> Woohaa. Nice time travel. I'm done checking all messages tagged [css-ui] and [css3-ui] since the the beginning of www-style for issues that are still relevant.
# [17:50] * Quits: amtiskaw (~sid19262@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:50] <astearns> krit: right, and you use the computed value for interpolation. So interpolation between those ellipses is not defined
# [17:50] * Quits: robertknight_clo (~sid15951@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:50] <krit> astearns: thanks!
# [17:51] * Quits: birtles (~sid16523@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:51] <Florian> There's a lot less once you go beyond 2011, but I found one unadressed issue from 2004 from Boris Zbarsky
# [17:53] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [17:53] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:53] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:54] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:54] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:54] * Joins: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak)
# [17:56] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
# [17:56] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
# [17:56] <Zakim> +philm
# [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou
# [17:57] <dauwhe> Zakim, philm is dauwhe
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
# [17:57] <dauwhe> Zakim, dauwhe has fantasai
# [17:57] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:57] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
# [17:58] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Florian
# [17:58] * Joins: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [17:58] * Joins: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:59] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +97455aaaa
# [17:59] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [17:59] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
# [17:59] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:00] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:01] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth
# [18:01] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
# [18:01] <tantek> belated regrets for the first ~10min. will have IRC scrollback til then.
# [18:01] <glazou> ok tantek
# [18:01] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P25
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:02] * Joins: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak)
# [18:02] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [18:02] * Joins: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [18:02] <Zakim> +krit
# [18:02] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] * Joins: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [18:03] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
# [18:03] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:03] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:03] <alex_antennahouse> I'm IP caller I think
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:03] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth
# [18:03] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.917.818.aabb
# [18:03] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:04] <AH_Miller> Mike at Antenna House - I'm calling in via Skype today
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P39
# [18:04] <glazou> ok AH_Miller
# [18:04] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:04] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's get started
# [18:04] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [18:04] * Joins: KeshavP (~KeshavP@public.cloak)
# [18:04] * Joins: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak)
# [18:04] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:04] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: I saw that Bo posted an extra item on the ML. Any other extras?
# [18:04] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:04] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:05] <dael> ??: I have issues on Animations and the behavior of the key arguement
# [18:05] * Joins: adenilson_ (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: The delete and insertion rules?
# [18:05] <dael> sylvaing: Yep.
# [18:05] <dael> s/??/ sylvaing
# [18:05] <dael> Topic: Brief intro for API taskforce
# [18:05] <dael> Rossen_: I can do my best. Is TabAtkins on the phone?
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: He's not, apperently.
# [18:06] <Zakim> +antenna
# [18:06] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [18:06] <dael> Rossen_: Okay. I don't even know what to call it anymore. Thre's a TF which was formed just a few days ago and it's something we've been talking about and trying to get up and running.
# [18:06] <dael> Rossen_: The idea and purpose is to tackle some of the lower level layout primitives and expositing the programmability model of layout and styling to script
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:07] <astearns> s/expositing/exposing/
# [18:07] <glazou> the TF’s mailing-list is public-wtf@w3.org
# [18:07] <dbaron> glazou, I'd like to briefly point out an email I sent about transitions
# [18:07] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [18:07] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen_: Why did we form a TF, if you read one of TabAtkins's e-mail in my responce to the org thread, he had a really good summary. Basicaly half the peoplein the WG are interested in layout and half are not. We want to have a focused group that deals with that alone and mothing else, similar to the FXTF and how the deal with effects.
# [18:07] <glazou> dbaron: ok ; do that after the current item ?
# [18:08] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:08] * adenilson_ is now known as adenilson
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P50
# [18:08] <glazou> and even DISRUPTIVE INNOVATIONS !
# [18:08] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P50 is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: The group as it stands is most represented with impl. We have people from Mozilla, Google, Microsoft, Adobe, and I believe we may have people from Apple join. We're trying to set up a first meeting in Sydney.
# [18:08] <glazou> :)
# [18:08] * bradk can't read "WHATTF" as anything other than "WTF?"
# [18:08] * Florian invited experts as well
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: Oh, and HP and Ditruptive Innovations.
# [18:08] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [18:08] <bkardell_> I have joined - jQuery
# [18:08] <glazou> bradk: that’s why smfr suggested to change it
# [18:08] <astearns> is there anyone from TAG besides Peter who are interested?
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: So we'll try and set up a meeting right before the Sydney F2F on Say and Sun, I believe that's 7 and 8 feb.
# [18:09] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: shans will arrange and host the meeting, I'm assuming in a similar or same location.
# [18:09] <bkardell_> tag is interested, they wanted it set up
# [18:09] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:09] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:09] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: That's pretty much what we have for now. We're hoping during hte initial meeting we'll clarify the chater of the group, so don't hold me to what exactly we'll do. We'll set up the charter at the F2F. Prior to that we're hoping the bikeshedding of the taskforce name will be done with.
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: The wft name I odn't think was ever meant to stick for a long time.
# [18:10] <bkardell_> s/wft/wtf
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: It turned a bunch of heads. I got a bunch of emails about people who were passionate about being serious. I am too, so don't hate me for it.
# [18:11] <ChrisL> just let me know what the eventual name will be, and i will create the new list
# [18:11] * Florian I blame Tab, he seemed to really like the name.
# [18:11] * bkardell_ really likes the name :-p
# [18:11] <Rossen_> wiki.wctf.org
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen_: We'd love to have people join the list. It is publis. plinss and I set up mercurial and extf and if it sticks that's what we'll use to solidify proposals and start creating spec.
# [18:11] <Rossen_> wiki.extf.org
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: And the wiki is this (above) and up and everyone in CSS should be cleared for access and to contribute.
# [18:12] * dauwhe could shans forward the original meeting notes from Santa Clara to the new list?
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: That's the overall intro. Any questions or name proposals?
# [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: dauwhe has a good question. shans should forward the meeting notes from the end of TPAC to the list.
# [18:12] * bkardell_ proposes "wtf"
# [18:13] * dauwhe bkardell_: +1
# [18:13] <adenilson> wctf.org directs to World Children Transplant Group.
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: Yes, once the wiki is up and running, there are some initial documents we'll use to introduce people to what we're doing and the problem space as well as meeting notes. At Sydney we'll figure out the telecon schedule and soforth. The initial meeting will be admin and chartering details.
# [18:13] * bkardell_ wonders if we will rename extf to senchaf at some point
# [18:14] <SteveZ> What about "Layout Tree Task Force"
# [18:14] <dael> ChrisL: I would suggest waiting to forward the notes until the mailing list exits. As soon as you have a name you've settled on let me know.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: I will and thank you ChrisL for being so patient with this.
# [18:14] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: Okay. Any questions?
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: Thank you Rossen_
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: I hope to see as many of you as possible in Sydney.
# [18:14] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0150.html
# [18:15] <dael> dbaron: I wanted to point out I sent an e-mail to www-style yesterday about edits to Transitions spec. I'd appriciate review of the edits and the spec in general because hopefullyw e can take this to the new process, maybe in January.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: Let's do an action to the group. How much time is needed?
# [18:15] * astearns thinks "settling on a final name" is a bit optimistic for this group
# [18:15] <dael> dbaron: I don't know if it's everyone. Some of these are technical.
# [18:16] * Ms2ger astearns: hah
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen_: Is this the write-up that you did...in a couple of F2F you mentioned that the position model is broken and you would rewrite. Is this it?
# [18:16] <dael> dbaron: No. That was in the last WD. This fixes one of the things that was missing from that. THe edits I did then didn't explain how transitions get cancelled.
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen_: Maybe now is a good time for an overall review of the whole model.
# [18:16] <dael> ??: Are there any tests the desc the behavior?
# [18:17] <smfr> s/??/smfr/
# [18:17] <astearns> s/??/smfr/
# [18:17] <dael> dbaron: I don't think so. That would be useful as well.
# [18:17] <dael> Action everyone to review the document and give feedback
# [18:17] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:17] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:17] <dael> Topic: :lang() issues
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: smfr will you be discussing this?
# [18:17] <dael> smfr: I don't have the background, sorry.
# [18:17] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0046.html
# [18:18] * bkardell_ astearns: Maybe we should just give it a code name instead of a descriptive name, like "sabertooth bunny"
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: Le'ts take the first one. That's about parsing the arguement of :lang(). In selectors 4 when there's a * to do matching.
# [18:18] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0130.html
# [18:18] * liam zakim, call liam-617
# [18:18] * Zakim ok, liam; the call is being made
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Liam
# [18:18] * tantek dialing
# [18:18] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:18] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: The 2nd message is sim but about how we tokenize the value of :lang(). So when we want to make *-number we can't because -number isn't a token.
# [18:18] <tantek> "The conference is full, no more parties can be added at this time."
# [18:18] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: dael, [IPcaller], glazou, plinss, Florian, dauwhe, antonp, Stearns, hober, ??P25, [IPcaller.a], krit, [Microsoft], smfr, [IPcaller.aa], Plh, gregwhitworth,
# [18:18] * Zakim ... [Microsoft.a], +1.917.818.aabb, ??P39, SteveZ, koji, SylvaIng, BradK, antenna, dbaron, BrianKardell, SimonSapin, ChrisL, Liam
# [18:18] * Zakim [Microsoft] has Rossen_
# [18:19] <tantek> Zakim, I am here :P
# [18:19] <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am here :P', tantek
# [18:19] <dael> ChrisL: I think TabAtkins message recently about making that a string is the best way forward. When we org spec it was an easy thing. We can't tell what the future will be so we need to make it a string.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: We can't make it a string. We can allow it in addition to tokens.
# [18:19] <vollick> I'm here, too, Zakim, but I don't know how to tell you that.
# [18:19] <dael> ChrisL: Yeah, sure.
# [18:19] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:19] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%)
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: One of the things Webkit folks were asking is why not allow escaped asteris.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: This is ugly.
# [18:19] * tantek glazou I'll redial when someone hangs up.
# [18:19] * tantek imagines a game of musical conference call lines, once they're all taken, you lose.
# [18:20] * ChrisL doesn't hear any noise
# [18:20] * astearns bkardell how about Buxaceae (family name for box trees)
# [18:20] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [18:20] * dbaron was trying to identify unidentified callers
# [18:20] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
# [18:20] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, [IPcaller], glazou, plinss, Florian, dauwhe, antonp, Stearns, hober, ??P25, [IPcaller.a], krit, [Microsoft], smfr, [IPcaller.aa], Plh, gregwhitworth,
# [18:20] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft.a], +1.917.818.aabb, ??P39, SteveZ, koji, SylvaIng, BradK, antenna, dbaron, BrianKardell, SimonSapin, ChrisL, Liam
# [18:20] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
# [18:20] <Zakim> On IRC I see MaRakow, ChrisL, bkardell_, Ms2ger, adenilson, SteveZ, andreyr, KeshavP, bradk, bcampbell, vollick, smfr, alex_antennahouse, liam, gregwhitworth, tantek, Rossen_,
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: There's no reason to disallow, so why not allow. We might also want to allow strings as a less ugly optino. The only time you need a * is in the front since i nthe middle is like not putting it there. The front is only a problem when the subtag is a number.
# [18:20] <Zakim> ... svillar_, antenna, murakami, lajava, AH_Miller, dael, dauwhe, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dholbert, Florian, thinkxl, plh, antonp, nikos, Bert, stryx`, koji, cabanier,
# [18:20] <Zakim> ... astearns, lmclister______, achicu_____, TabAtkins, slightlyoff, JonathanNeal_, timeless, shepazu, ed, panzana`_, paul___irish, krijnhoetmer_, CSSWG_LogBot, gsnedders, hober,
# [18:20] <Zakim> ... wilhelm
# [18:20] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
# [18:20] * tantek dialing
# [18:20] * dbaron tantek, try now
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: The only time it's an actual problem is when you're doing *-number. You can solve that with a string or escaping the *.
# [18:21] * bkardell_ astearns: I can't spell it, but I like it
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: I prefer the string.
# [18:21] <Zakim> +??P30
# [18:21] <tantek> Zakim, ??P30 is me
# [18:21] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:21] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:21] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I imagine the corner case is rare.
# [18:21] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:21] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:21] <tantek> thanks whoever IPcaller.aa was
# [18:21] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: But as ChrisL said we don't control this. This comes from another committee and we don't know what they'll do in the future. We should assume it's possible to happen in the future. It's not a complete edge case.
# [18:22] <alex_antennahouse> that was me, ran out of quarters for the pay phone
# [18:22] * tantek dislikes escaping path.
# [18:22] * zcorpan regrets. internet problems
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: I'm in really in favor of allowing a scring and now going down the escaping path. What do others thinks?
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: If we allow string, we should allow both.
# [18:22] <SimonSapin> q+
# [18:22] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: Absolutely, but then we can say if you have * somewhere it has to be a string. This is new in Selectors 4.
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Whoops, forgot about the call. I agree with glazou, btw.
# [18:23] <ChrisL> +1 to fantasai allowing * at start
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I think I would pref for allowing the * in the beginning unquoted. That makes a minimal change for targeting a subtag, but allow a free range at the beginign. I don't mind having a string req for other situations. I want to commen place as easy as it was previously.
# [18:23] <bkardell_> I think a string makes sense, it's still pretty easy, right?
# [18:23] <bkardell_> +1
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Better to make it a consistent "string if you use *" than an inconsistent "just type it, but if it doesn't work [due to arcane parsing things] then use a string"
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: For usablility I'd like to allow the star. I'm fine with allowing the string for future wierdness and an alternative to escaping.
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> fantasai: One of Ben's emails was precisely about a problem with an initial *.
# [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: An edge case is star is already a valid ident in :lang pseudo-class. We shouldn't dis-allow it. Escaping works.
# [18:24] <dael> sylvaing: That makes sense to me. Escaping is allowed.
# [18:24] * ChrisL "to decide if you need a string, first build a parser in your head, then ..."
# [18:24] <SimonSapin> s/edge case/escaped/
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Do we agree on the strategy here?
# [18:24] <dael> sylvaing: I do.
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: fantasai?
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Yes? I think TabAtkins isn't sure.
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> callin in now, one sec
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: [reads TabAtkins comments]
# [18:25] * tantek tries to read scrollback while not falling too far behind
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> never mind, conf is full :(
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: One of Ben's e-mails is about the problem with the initial star.
# [18:25] <astearns> was it s/sylvaing/florian/ ?
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> The two problems Ben brought up:
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: I think that's wierd and archane and pretty much no one will run into it.
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> 1. *-1996 is a valid code via the RFC, but invalid per CSS parsing.
# [18:25] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: When the problem is plausable it always happens.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> 2. foo-*-bar is valid in the RFC.
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: So, let's keep allowing *-identifier when it's not digits and recommend a string when it is.
# [18:26] <ChrisL> action: chris to extend the zakim bridge allocation
# [18:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-663 - Extend the zakim bridge allocation [on Chris Lilley - due 2014-12-17].
# [18:26] <dael> RESOLVED: keep allowing *-identifier when it's not digits and recommend a string when it is.
# [18:26] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: I'll make the edits.
# [18:26] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0580.html
# [18:26] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Allow strings as argument to :lang()
# [18:26] <dael> Topic: Fixed layout
# [18:27] <Rossen_> SteveZ: "Layout Tree Task Force" would mean LTTF which is already taken by "Learning Technologies Task Force" lttf.org
# [18:27] <dael> SimonSapin: The part of fixed layout that is spec in CSS2.1 has one of the senetence. When all col have the spec width and the table has a spec with, if the table is larger, the extra should be dest between the col. The spec doesn't say how, but it turns out webcompat depends on it being proportional to the width of the columns.
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I recommend making the edits so that string is recommended, but then laying out cases when you can omit the quotes. Better than trying to say "you don't need quotes, but if you find that it doesn't work, use quotes".
# [18:27] <dael> SimonSapin: It seems like the spec needs to say this so we should add an errata.
# [18:27] * tantek is caught up with scrollback.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: There was an extra comment on the mailing list needing exceptions.
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: And ou have to consider if it has % width as well. What Gecko does is it destributes extra space...if there's a non-0 width in col with a spec length, it distributes among them with nothing to the col that have %. Otherwise it distributes to those with % width.
# [18:28] * dauwhe Box Tree Task Force shares an acronym with "Back to the Future"
# [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins, yes, makes sense. Well, I would recommend unquoted for anything that's not involving *, because that is backwards-compatible and strings are not.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: Do we have interop on when there's col-span somewhere?
# [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins, but for cases with * I agree.
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, sure.
# [18:29] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it interacts, well, maybe you are looking at cell width. I'm not sure if this is looking at cell widths or only...fixed only looks at the first row. It may skip those with col-span.
# [18:29] <dael> SimonSapin: It does describute to those with col-span.
# [18:29] <fantasai> s/that is spec/that *is* specced/
# [18:30] <dael> glazou: So do we have an answer to the question?
# [18:30] <dael> SimonSapin: We need to change something. It's unclear as to what the exact behavior should be. dbaron can you write on the ML what the Gecko behavior is?
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: And we want to make sure other browsers do the same?
# [18:30] <dael> SimonSapin: I can try to do that.
# [18:30] <dael> glazou: plh are you on the call?
# [18:30] <dael> plh: I am.
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: You want to mention something about CSS2 errata?
# [18:31] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:31] <dael> plh: It would be nice to leave the spec as it is online. I brought this to the group and we were lacking tests. I'm not saying we should stop everything, but it would be great to update the TR verion of CSS 2
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: Comments?
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: SimonSapin will you create and errata based on the changes you want from your tests?
# [18:32] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:32] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:32] <dael> SimonSapin: I'll do more tests to find interop and then propose and errata
# [18:32] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: While you do that, can you submit a test?
# [18:32] <dael> SimonSapin: I can do that.
# [18:32] <dael> tantek: What is the status of the lighter-weight TR process.
# [18:33] * Joins: robertknight_clo (~sid15951@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: The process for updating REC is worse in the new version of the process.
# [18:33] <dael> plh: There has been discussion on the process list. There is a high bar to update REC and there's been a discussion about lowering that bar.
# [18:33] <ChrisL> we published a CR under new process recently. actually it was the first one
# [18:33] * Joins: ato (~sid16069@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <dael> tantek: I thought it was further than that. Allowing a group to update a TR page without the heavy lifting.
# [18:34] <Zakim> -??P39
# [18:34] * liam q+ to clarify TR change for tantek briefly
# [18:34] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, liam on the speaker queue
# [18:34] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: That's not about what W3C process we're on. For 2.1 we're stuck on process issues. We can't pub sbstantitive changes unless they pass CR and we have a bunch of items without tests or impl reports. So assing the current version of 2.1 we need all the reports to publish, or re-ublish.
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> ack SimonSapin
# [18:35] * Zakim sees liam on the speaker queue
# [18:35] * Joins: mihnea_____ (~sid16310@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> (done earlier)
# [18:35] <dael> tantek: That's a long list of dependancies. I understand the need to not update the TR CSS2.1 immediatly, but this long list of dependancies seems like a bad problem. Can we pub as a ED?
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It is.
# [18:35] <dael> tantek: Can we slap a warning on the top of CSS2.1?
# [18:35] <Zakim> +??P9
# [18:35] * Joins: birtles (~sid16523@public.cloak)
# [18:36] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P9 is me.
# [18:36] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:36] <dael> plh: Because no one has asked. I don't think we've done it before...
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: We have. We put something at the top of CSS2 saying look at 2.1
# [18:36] <dael> tantek: So I'm sayng put something at the top of 2.1 that links tot he ED.
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: I'm in favor.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: I am if we say there's extra ongoing work.
# [18:36] <dael> tantek: Saying we have substantial changes in process.
# [18:37] <dael> ChrisL: The usual is to put it in errata rather then link to an unsatable doc
# [18:37] <dael> tantek: I obj to hiding it the the errata.
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: We should put it in the real document.
# [18:37] <liam> s/ChrisL/Liam/
# [18:37] * liam q-
# [18:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:37] <dael> tantek: This is a warning at the top.
# [18:37] <Florian> +1
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:37] <tantek> +1
# [18:37] <dbaron> in favor
# [18:37] <astearns> +1
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: So we have a proposal to put a new link at the top of CSS2.1
# [18:37] <antonp> +1
# [18:37] <gregwhitworth> +1
# [18:37] <fantasai> +1
# [18:37] <smfr> +1
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I'm in favor. Someone mentioned a link to both the errata and the ED and that's good.
# [18:38] <dauwhe> +1
# [18:38] <SimonSapin> we already have an errata and a link to it
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Any objections?
# [18:38] <tantek> we already have a link to the errata - no need to duplicate that
# [18:38] <liam> -1 but not objecting
# [18:38] <KeshavP> +1
# [18:38] <tantek> this is ONLY for linking to the editor's draft
# [18:38] <SteveZ> +1
# [18:38] <ChrisL> so this is an in-place edit on CSS 2.1 Rec?
# [18:38] * fantasai is pretty sure nobody can see the errata link unless they know it's there, so thinks having it in the warning is probably a good thing
# [18:38] <ChrisL> errata must already be there for a rec
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: We have a link to the errata, so I don't think we should confuse it
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: Yeah, fine.
# [18:39] <dael> RESOLVED: Add a new link at the top of CSS2.1 linking to the Editor's Draft
# [18:39] <JonathanNeal_> What am I plusoneing?
# [18:39] <tantek> "There are substantial changes in progress"
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI
# [18:39] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:39] <Zakim> ChrisL was already muted, ChrisL
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: You have 20 minutes. Choose well.
# [18:39] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0145.html
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: Let's start with this.
# [18:39] * tantek opens the agenda link
# [18:39] * plh wonders who got the action to update CSS2.1
# [18:40] <glazou> plh: good question BTW
# [18:40] <SimonSapin> plh, nobody yet, I think
# [18:40] <glazou> am stram gram :-)
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: We have a resolution about rounded outline. WE had a short discussion that raised issues, didn't answer them, and then concluded that i you have a rounded border, the outline should be as well. I agree this is what you'd normally want, but due to the vaugue definition, I'm not sure what it means.
# [18:40] * plh nominates Chris or Bert to do the update :)
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: We have interop on not doing that. Every browser keeps square corners. I'm not sure if there's a webcompat issue with switching.
# [18:41] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:41] <tantek> glazou - who put the warning at the top of 2.0?
# [18:41] <glazou> tantek: ChrisL or Bert?
# [18:41] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
# [18:41] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:41] <glazou> oh wait you said 2.0
# [18:41] <glazou> no idea
# [18:41] <tantek> glazou any volunteers to update 2.1 with the warning?
# [18:41] <glazou> hey that was EONS ago
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: options are 1)do nothing 2)do the same explicitlys aying you may, but not how 3) we do it with a must, prob don't say how, and test the obvious case.
# [18:41] <glazou> tantek: plh and I recommend ChrisL or Bert
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: I would prefer an explicit may to allow experiemtnation and spec completely in level 4. I have ideas on how we'd attempt a full spec, but it's not a onn liner
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: The definition wouldn'tbe that difficult. Tot he extent that the outline follow the border edge, it it must follow the rounding.
# [18:42] <SimonSapin> Can we make the warning fixedpos, like http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-box/ ?
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: Not always. If the children overflow, some browssers include the overflowing bit in the outline. Also, the spec doesn't say if you transformt he outline when you transformt he elements.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: You can say to the extent that you follow the border edge. So when it does, you follow the curve. Where it doesn't follow the bordedr edge it's left undefined.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: That sounds like something we can spec. If we spec as a must, no one passes.
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: I think we can easily push it to level 4. I don't see us rushing to impl this given everything else on the table.
# [18:44] <tantek> q+ to explain WebTV outline history
# [18:44] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:44] <dael> Rossen_: On the priority level, this will be low for us. I'd be surprised if other rush to impl rounded corners. I'd be okay with this going to level 4.
# [18:44] * fantasai zakim, q+
# [18:44] * Zakim sees tantek, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:44] * fantasai ack tantek
# [18:44] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to explain WebTV outline history
# [18:44] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:44] <glazou> Zakim, ack tantek
# [18:44] <Zakim> I see fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:45] * Joins: abucur___ (~sid19072@public.cloak)
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: This feature started from the really good outline and focus of webTV. It did round the corners and provide a nice rounded implementation. We knew this was non-trivial to impl whichis why it's loose in the spec. I don't expect every impl can do that, we need to allow a broad range of fidelity. I'm okay with adding some more may to the existing spec with known best practices but it's premature to agree one specing this on any future level
# [18:46] * Rossen_ agrees with tantek
# [18:46] * Joins: amtiskaw (~sid19262@public.cloak)
# [18:46] <fantasai> tantek +1
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: I find it distrubing that the rounded-ness disappears at times, but I don't know how to say it's broken without breaking other implementations. I'm okay with may statements, but not saying how to do it.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: So have fantasai proposed sentence with a may in it for level 3.
# [18:46] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: fantasai can you put your sentence in IRC?
# [18:47] <fantasai> "To the extent that the outline follows the border edge, it should follow the border-radius curve."
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: The the extent that the outline follows the border,t he outline should be rounded just like the border, I think.
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: I don't know about should vs may, but not must.
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: So should vs May is are we sure it's desirable behavior
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: We're sure it's desirable, but not sure about webcompat
# [18:48] <dael> tantek: If we're sure we should use should.
# [18:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: That's why we resolved before on Must, but that's a bit impossible.
# [18:48] <dael> RESOLVED: To the extent that the outline follows the border edge, it should follow the border-radius curve
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: 10 more minutes
# [18:48] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0063.html
# [18:49] <tantek> CSS3-UI Issue #??
# [18:49] * Quits: panzana`_ (~panzana@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:49] <tantek> Florian said he would edit the CSS3-UI issue
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: Next one. resize. It's speced in terms of a resize factor. They do it by updating a style attr and they're imterop. Regardless of the spec behavior is good, we should drop in terms of what's impl.
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure if what's in the spec is ideal, but I'm not sure on what's impl either. So if you resize a form element to make it bigger and it was, say, fill to viewpoprt, and then you resize your window to make it sign narrower or wider, the form element will no longer attempt to fit in your new layout.
# [18:50] * astearns tantek: issue 56?
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: In which case the UA may want to do something smart. I don't know what's right, though I think what's in the spec shouldn't be what's there. It should be close to what's impl or more similar.
# [18:51] * Florian tantek: rounded outlines was https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-56
# [18:51] <tantek> thanks Florian
# [18:51] <tantek> q+ to say this is why the spec language specifically says "a resize factor applied internally by the UA"
# [18:51] * Zakim sees fantasai, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen_: So if the resizable element is relative to a containing block and the containing block is resized, do you resize the element again. You can decide which is the desribale behavior and you can respec by saying either it remains fixed or resizes on the next containing block resize.
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: We see that when you resize a table in an editor. When nothing is fixed length, you resize a field and then a container, you have that problem.
# [18:52] * tantek is have ~10 year-old deja vu.
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen_: I think that half the time you want to resize and half the time yu don't. Perhaps we're missing an additional behavior which will further define what happenes during resize. It'll be up the the author to set the expected behavior the be resize as fixed or relative.
# [18:52] * Florian tantek: yes, I've found threads from 2004 on this
# [18:53] * tantek Florian (!!!) you're much better at email search than me.
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: That makes sense. We should explore that in the next level. For this level we may have the spec what's there and say the UA may reset the size when it feel like it.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: I can agree to that.
# [18:53] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:53] <dael> tantek: That's a lot wording to restate what we have. The current lang was choosen to deal with all these variants.
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: That was the most expediant way to impl and it's not cooincidence that they arrived there.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure they're equivellent
# [18:54] <fantasai> q+
# [18:54] * Zakim sees fantasai, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: I said covered by. The language is very deliberate to cover the existing behavior and something in the future where the UA does something more intellegent in the future depending on how the item was layed out etc. I don'thtink the impl know wht's optimal.
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: Right now we don't have widespread use of Flexbox, but I think we will in the future and detailed languge will make an obstical in the future.
# [18:55] <dael> dbaron: So I don't think what implementations are doing is conformat to what the spec says.
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I agree. Interacting the the cascade is not an internal detail
# [18:56] <dael> dbaron: THe spec is clear that it's after width, so these are different.
# [18:56] <dael> tantek: I would be okay ith expanding what the spec allows to explicitly allow the style attr manipulation.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: So I'd like to ask if the impl are ever willing to change. If they're not, we shouldn't spend time discussing the change. But if they're willing to change we can spend time deciding where this should be in the future. I don't have an opinion on which is better, I just want spec and impl to match.
# [18:57] <dael> dbaron: I think there's a difference in willing to change and willing to put in the energy to make the change happen. What's in the spec is more work, prob substantially.
# [18:57] <dbaron> s/difference in/difference between/
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: That's why I'm saying the spec lang should be broadened to allow what impl are doing now and allows better approaches in the future.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure how you do that given the infraction to the cascade.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: We add a sentence saying something like impl may directly manipulate width and hight elements on the style attr being changed.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: That's my prop.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: Florian what do you thing?
# [18:59] <glazou> s/thing/think
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: I'm willing to go with tantek, if impl are willing to go with what is in the spec, why not, but if impl won't change there's no point in specing something they won't use. I don't see much willingness to implthe other one.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I think someone that isn't the core impl team will find a need for a better approach and will put pressure for the changes. If we think it's a better route we should leave it open. If we think we'd like to go there if we have the resources, we should leave it in the spec.
# [19:00] * Joins: sgalineau (~sid26595@public.cloak)
# [19:00] * krit is dropping off because of other meeting
# [19:00] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: The current talks about a resize factor and that's multiplictive. Right now it's a fixed size. I think we might want to change it to information.
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: How about a resize transform?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: Sure.
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: That reasoning makes sense. That allows implt to do anything.
# [19:01] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure about transform because people might think it'st he transform prop.
# [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai^: Might want to be additive rather than multiplicative.
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: We have to wrap up.
# [19:01] <tantek> proposal: change "resize factor" to "resize transform" to address fantasai's concern
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:02] <dael> Florian: If we allow the current in the spec, I'm good with that. I'm not sure it's obvious that the rest is useful, but sure.
# [19:02] <dael> fantasai: An alternative to tantek's lanugague is to say information with is more vague.
# [19:02] <tantek> s/transform/function
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: Or function.
# [19:02] <fantasai> I like function
# [19:02] <fantasai> let's use function
# [19:02] <dael> Florian: So we won't have tests for this?
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:02] * Quits: KeshavP (~KeshavP@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: Nothing more than now.
# [19:02] <fantasai> f(x) = x + 20px
# [19:02] <fantasai> f(x) = 278px
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:02] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure how you test if we can say this way or that way with one way not defined.
# [19:02] <tantek> proposal: change "resize factor" to "resize function" to address fantasai's concern
# [19:02] <fantasai> f(x) = x * 1.5
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: So can we continue offline or resolve?
# [19:03] <dael> tantek: I want a resolution on what I typed.
# [19:03] * plh has to drop
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Plh
# [19:03] <tantek> both proposals
# [19:03] <dael> Florian: Was it your line plus the earlier? As long as you can do it with a style attr, I'm good.
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:03] * liam zakim, drop liam
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [19:03] <dael> RESOLVED: impl may directly manipulate width and hight elements on the style attr being changed and change "resize factor" to "resize transform" to address fantasai's concern
# [19:03] * Zakim Liam is being disconnected
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Liam
# [19:03] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:03] * Quits: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:03] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [19:03] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [19:03] <tantek> dael: s/transform/function
# [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:04] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [19:04] <Zakim> -??P25
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:04] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [19:04] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:04] * Quits: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:04] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:04] <dael> glazou: alright, bye!
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:04] <Zakim> -tantek
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.917.818.aabb
# [19:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:04] <Zakim> -antenna
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:04] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:04] <tantek> that was for CSS3-UI issues 47 and 53
# [19:04] <tantek> cc: Florian
# [19:05] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:05] <Florian> tantek: thanks
# [19:05] <Zakim> -Florian
# [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, [IPcaller], glazou, fantasai, plinss, Florian, dauwhe, +97455aaaa, Stearns, antonp, gregwhitworth, hober, krit, smfr, Plh, +1.917.818.aabb, Rossen_, SteveZ,
# [19:05] <Zakim> ... koji, SylvaIng, BradK, antenna, dbaron, BrianKardell, SimonSapin, ChrisL, Liam, tantek, adenilson, [Microsoft], MaRakow
# [19:05] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) ("Client combusted")
# [19:05] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:06] <Florian> tantek: I'll have to go through my notes again then, as there were issues that had been raised against the current wording. I had assumed we would replace it so they didn't matter, but as we keep it, we need to solve them
# [19:06] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:06] * Quits: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:07] <tantek> Florian ok. I think the change of factor to function is a good one.
# [19:10] * Joins: Rossen___ (~uid21900@public.cloak)
# [19:10] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:11] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:11] <Florian> tantek: Sure. I'll surface things other people had brought up on this.
# [19:15] * Joins: iank__ (~sid43239@public.cloak)
# [19:17] * Quits: svillar_ (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:23] <Florian> I'll give a go at writing the full text for "may do with with the style attribute instead". It shouldn't be long, and since we're specing from implementations, I think it is worth being specific about the behavior we're allowing
# [19:23] <Florian> ok?
# [19:26] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:28] <tantek> hey 3 minutes isn't enough time to answer :P
# [19:28] <tantek> I'm going to just go with the language proposed and resolved. We can make further editorial edits later.
# [19:31] * Joins: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [19:34] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:36] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [19:37] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:43] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [19:43] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [19:49] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [19:56] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:57] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [20:02] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:06] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:13] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:16] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:29] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:42] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:44] <tantek> Florian, ICYMI - re: "may do" - I'm going to just go with the language proposed and resolved. We can make further editorial edits later.
# [20:52] * Quits: lajava (~javi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:53] <liam> tantek, the change to /TR in the short term is to make it easier to publish WDs, does not affect transition to CR, or editing a Rec (I fear the result will be to make publishing a Rec seem even harder)
# [20:54] <tantek> right, so until publishing a Rec is fixed, we should put warnings on all the Recs that point to replacement editor's drafts.
# [20:54] <tantek> the warnings will continue until the Rec updating process is sufficiently improved
# [20:56] <liam> :) beatings will contunue etc etc
# [21:03] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [21:08] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [21:11] * Quits: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [21:12] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#line-height
# [21:14] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:14] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [21:15] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-linebox-20020515/
# [21:19] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [21:36] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@public.cloak)
# [21:37] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [21:44] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:25] <Florian> As part of doing css3-ui issue archeology on www-style, I found this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0552.html
# [22:26] <Florian> given that we have move all pseudos to the selectors spec, this is no longer in scope for UI, and is selector material, just in case anyone wants to pick it up.
# [22:27] <Florian> s/move/moved/
# [22:29] <Florian> (bringing this up, as the only response is TabAtkins pinging Tantek as the css-ui editor to tell him to pick it up, but it's now back on a spec he edits)
# [22:34] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [22:34] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [22:43] * Quits: Rossen___ (~uid21900@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [22:46] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:46] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [22:47] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:48] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [22:55] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:56] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> Ugh, that's a dumb amount of time to go without a real response.
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we should add it to Selectors.
# [23:21] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:35] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [23:50] <Florian> is there an intended difference between the <uri> production and the <url> production?
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> No. <uri> is supposed to go away.
# [23:51] <Florian> ok, thanks
# [23:55] <tantek> Florian, any such differences are being placed in an <urn>
# [23:56] <Florian> :)
# Session Close: Thu Dec 11 00:00:00 2014

Think these logs are useful? Then please donate to show your gratitude (and keep them up, of course). Thanks! — Krijn