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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 15 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  109. # [20:50] <fantasai> dauwhe: Think you'll be ready to publish Inline by Wednesday?
  110. # [20:50] <fantasai> dauwhe: I'm thinking we should try to get it in for Thursday publication
  111. # [20:51] <dauwhe> fantasai: still have some diagrams to make. But other than that I think we're good.
  112. # [20:51] <dauwhe> fantasai: should be ready by Wednesday.
  113. # [20:53] <fantasai> Cool. I'll write up a publication request, then. And maybe Bert can help us publish. :)
  114. # [20:53] <dauwhe> fantasai: I'll run it through pubrules and see if there are any issues.
  115. # [20:54] <fantasai> dauwhe: sounds good
  116. # [20:54] * dauwhe now writing the email to convince the brass to send me to Australia
  117. # [20:54] * fantasai :)
  118. # [20:55] <liam> tell them to send me too :-)
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  120. # [20:55] <dauwhe> liam: I'll write you a note. I wonder if Mike Day would come as a observer.
  121. # [20:59] <liam> :)
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  123. # [21:04] <fantasai> dauwhe: We need to address kerning somehow :/
  124. # [21:04] <dauwhe> fantasai: I think I'm going to lose my internet connection :)
  125. # [21:04] * Quits: estellevw (~estellewyel@public.cloak) (estellevw)
  126. # [21:05] <fantasai> dauwhe: Checking in some text about Arabic shaping; we forgot to write that in last Wednesday
  127. # [21:06] <fantasai> dauwhe: feel free to move / change header level as appropriate
  128. # [21:07] <dauwhe> fantasai: I don't think we can really kern between initial letter and subsequent text at this level
  129. # [21:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: sure we can, we just have to define it sanely
  130. # [21:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: it'll still have to be a rectangular exclusion
  131. # [21:08] <dauwhe> fantasai: don't kerning pairs assume the letters are the same size?
  132. # [21:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: but kerning is possible
  133. # [21:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: optical kerning
  134. # [21:08] <fantasai> dauwhe: not pairs kerning
  135. # [21:09] * fantasai will draft something while TabAtkins is debugging counter-styles ;)
  136. # [21:09] <fantasai> Also, I'm thinking after this publication we should go through and reformat the source code with some indentation here...
  137. # [21:09] <dauwhe> fantasai: ah.
  138. # [21:13] <dauwhe> fantasai: Sounds good. Sorry I didn't pay much attention to that before.
  139. # [21:13] <fantasai> dauwhe: no need to apologize; we both forgot
  140. # [21:13] <liam> closing up the gap on the first line seems very worth while to me at least
  141. # [21:13] <fantasai> dauwhe: It happens. Specs are fiddly. Takes awhile to think up all the issues
  142. # [21:15] <dauwhe> liam: the canonical example is a dropped "A" where you want the first line to be rather close to the narrow top of the letter?
  143. # [21:15] <dauwhe> liam: I don't think I can do ascii art in IRC :)
  144. # [21:15] <liam> no
  145. # [21:16] <liam> the first line should come closer to the initial if there was no space
  146. # [21:16] <liam> to connect the word
  147. # [21:17] <liam> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BjAZkt5FYMQ/U22hfPKdYpI/AAAAAAAAAas/E1-VcfVEnao/s1600/114-drop-cap-examples-i.jpg
  148. # [21:17] <liam> or for an A, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G4Q32mZeHUw/U22hFU_DhAI/AAAAAAAAAao/j7E3J5p1hLY/s1600/114-drop-cap-examples-h.jpg
  149. # [21:18] <liam> but only when it's part of the same word
  150. # [21:18] <liam> (only really makes sense to me with 3 or more lines of initial, too, but not everyone agrees)
  151. # [21:19] <fantasai> liam: That's for future levels, I think
  152. # [21:19] <fantasai> liam: Or would be it be totally incorrect not to do that now?
  153. # [21:19] <liam> hmm, well, i think of it as pretty important
  154. # [21:20] <liam> "incorrect" is a difficult word here in Canada :)
  155. # [21:20] <fantasai> liam: We did talk about shape-wrapping, and decided to defer that
  156. # [21:20] <dauwhe> liam: agreed that it's important. Trying to think how to define it.
  157. # [21:20] * fantasai isn't sure if this falls into the same category
  158. # [21:20] <liam> i've implemented it in the past without access to glyph shapes, but it was a little hacky :)
  159. # [21:21] <liam> (I used a kern against a T, at the initial's size)
  160. # [21:21] <liam> you can do it with the current draft using extra span elements, one for the initial and one for the rest of the paragraph
  161. # [21:21] <liam> and using margin-left
  162. # [21:22] <liam> (or possibly text-indent)
  163. # [21:23] <fantasai> liam: what happens with a T?
  164. # [21:23] <liam> fantasai, consider the "AT" kern combination
  165. # [21:23] <liam> moves the T to the left (usually)
  166. # [21:23] <liam> by an amount such that it won't hit the A
  167. # [21:23] <fantasai> ah, clever
  168. # [21:23] <liam> for a 3-line or greater drop cal, the cross-bar of the T is like the first line of small text
  169. # [21:23] <liam> are, yes, you see where I was going
  170. # [21:24] <liam> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7-v0Vhxsjcw/U3cNAwvJidI/AAAAAAAAAbs/HrqSlWwkt0M/s1600/screen1.gif is a (rather poor) screenshot of that software.
  171. # [21:26] <liam> in some cases yo ucan get ambiguities if you don't do this
  172. # [21:26] <fantasai> liam: and if there is a space, there is no such kerning?
  173. # [21:26] <liam> right
  174. # [21:27] <fantasai> So text after an A would start flush with text on the third line of the drop-cap?
  175. # [21:27] <liam> so if a novel opens, "Arat jumped from the roof", for example :-) yu don't read it as if there were a space after the A
  176. # [21:27] <liam> if there was a space, yes
  177. # [21:27] <fantasai> okay
  178. # [21:27] <liam> either everything lines up, or the first line is set closer to the initial
  179. # [21:28] <liam> (or you follow the glyph contour, in some future version of the spec)
  180. # [21:28] <dauwhe> but how do we define where the text starts against the A? There has to be some space between the ink of the "A" and subsequent text.
  181. # [21:29] <liam> dauwhe, yes, agree that's the hard part (and where I used my kern-against-T hack)
  182. # [21:29] <dauwhe> Is there some value from the metrics we can use? left-side bearing of some particular letter?
  183. # [21:29] <liam> T :-)
  184. # [21:29] <dauwhe> s/left/right/ I think :)
  185. # [21:30] <liam> left
  186. # [21:30] <fantasai> Okay, here's some proposed text
  187. # [21:30] <liam> if it's an initial A, you can take the diffrence in width between "AT" and "A" + "T"
  188. # [21:30] <fantasai> when borders and padding are zero
  189. # [21:30] <fantasai> and the next <a>typographical character unit</a> after the <a>initial letter</a>
  190. # [21:30] <fantasai> is not a space (<a>Unicode general category</a> <code>Zs</code>),
  191. # [21:30] <fantasai> the UA should optically kern the first line of text into the <a>initial letter</a>’s area
  192. # [21:30] <fantasai> as necessary to maintain continuity of that word of text.
  193. # [21:31] * fantasai is not sure about this wording, it's just a first try
  194. # [21:31] <liam> s/not a space/not a space or word break/ ?
  195. # [21:31] <liam> good first try
  196. # [21:31] <liam> ok, train arriving, losing network
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  198. # [21:31] <dauwhe> I like "as necessary" as I'm very worried about trying to give an amount in all situations
  199. # [21:32] <fantasai> oh, yeah. We're def not going to say how much
  200. # [21:33] <fantasai> I'm unsure about "or word break"
  201. # [21:33] <fantasai> do we have an example of a word break that's not a space right after a drop-cap? :)
  202. # [21:34] <dauwhe> I was wondering about that, too.
  203. # [21:35] <dauwhe> Without an example, I wouldn't put it in.
  204. # [21:50] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#initial-letter-position
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  206. # [21:51] <dauwhe> fantasai: emailed you an example of Liam's concern, as I haven't figured out how to embed local images in IRC
  207. # [21:54] <fantasai> got it
  208. # [21:55] * fantasai lunch
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  218. # [22:57] * dauwhe fantasai: added two figures to inline. Now I have to go retrieve the boy.
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  222. # Session Close: Tue Dec 16 00:00:00 2014

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