/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-12-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  13. # [05:03] <liam> astearns, thanks (email)
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  23. # [15:50] <leaverou> dbaron: ping?
  24. # [15:50] <dbaron> leaverou, pong
  25. # [15:50] <leaverou> dbaron: Are you familiar with Gecko's font handling? I have a question
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  27. # [15:51] <dbaron> leaverou, somewhat, but I'm not really the expert
  28. # [15:52] <leaverou> actually anybody familiar with Chrome's font handling might be able to help too. cc TabAtkins
  29. # [15:52] <leaverou> so, here goes
  30. # [15:53] <leaverou> A user on Windows has only Gill Sans UltraBold and the whole Gill Sans MT family. When using a font stack with Gill Sans, Gill Sans MT with a normal font-weight, Chrome seems to display the text with Gill Sans UltraBold whereas Firefox correctly uses Gill Sans MT. I cannot reproduce this on OSX by disabling all other weights of Gill Sans.
  31. # [15:54] <leaverou> The test page they saw this on is http://www.cssfontstack.com/Gill-Sans . All I have is two screenshots of Chrome and Firefox demonstrating the difference, where in the "Fonts in Stack:" section you can see that "Gill Sans" is extra bold on Chrome and not displayed on Firefox (falls back to the default Times)
  32. # [15:55] <leaverou> and in the "Preview your fonts" section, you can see extra bold for the whole thing on Chrome and Gill Sans MT on Firefox.
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  34. # [15:56] <dbaron> leaverou, so different Windows browsers may be using different windows font APIs (GDI vs. DirectWrite, where I think we're generally only using DirectWrite if we're also using D2D for accelerated 2D graphics, which can depend on Windows version and also perhaps a graphics driver blacklist)
  35. # [15:56] <dbaron> leaverou, the GDI font API was a disaster, since it only had 2 weights, which is what led to things like "Gill Sans Ultrabold"
  36. # [15:57] <dbaron> leaverou, so many fonts have names such that they're designed to appear as a single family to modern font APIs, but as multiple families with different names ("Gill Sans UltraBold") to the GDI API
  37. # [15:57] <dbaron> leaverou, jdaggett would know the details much better than I do
  38. # [15:57] <leaverou> but even with 2 weights this shouldn't happen, since UltraBold would appear as bold which is still different than normal
  39. # [15:58] <dbaron> leaverou, but under GDI UltraBold might appear as an actual different family name (think about "Arial Black")
  40. # [15:58] <leaverou> unless the different weights weren't displayed as the closest one (normal or bold) but just as normal
  41. # [15:58] <dbaron> leaverou, the Graphics section of about:support in Firefox from that Windows user might be useful
  42. # [15:58] <leaverou> but in this case, Firefox was doing the right thing, it was Chrome that displayed it with UltraBold
  43. # [15:59] <dbaron> leaverou, which one is actually the right thing?
  44. # [15:59] <leaverou> falling back on Gill Sans MT, since Gill Sans with the appropriate weight is not available
  45. # [16:00] <dbaron> leaverou, also, is "Gill Sans MT" actually a family name, or is it part of the "Gill Sans" family everywhere except GDI? (I suspect jdaggett would know this stuff off the top of his head...)
  46. # [16:00] <leaverou> (btw the fact that only UltraBold is available from Gill Sans is my guess based on his rendering. It might not be correct)
  47. # [16:00] <leaverou> dbaron: good point.
  48. # [16:01] <leaverou> dbaron: on OSX it appears as a different font name, but not sure about GDI
  49. # [16:01] <leaverou> where is jdaggett when you need him :P
  50. # [16:01] <dbaron> leaverou, I think http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-matching-algorithm says that font-weight doesn't cause a match to fail, although I'm just skimming rather than reading closely
  51. # [16:01] <dbaron> leaverou, anyway, you should ask jdaggett
  52. # [16:07] <leaverou> dbaron: if it doesn't, then that's wrong.
  53. # [16:07] <leaverou> dbaron: weight *should* cause a match to fail. It's much better to fall back to the next font family than to display using the wrong weight
  54. # [16:12] <leaverou> dbaron: my interpretation of the algorithm is that weight *does* cause a match to fail, but only under certain conditions (if desired weight is < 400 and only bold fonts are available for example. For 400, it considers bold fonts ok.
  55. # [16:13] <leaverou> oh, actually no, for 400, 900 should *not* be ok, as there's an exception
  56. # [16:14] <dbaron> some of that bit of the algorithm might be relatively new additions
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  59. # [19:17] <leaverou> dbaron: actually, I read this more carefully. According to that algorithm Firefox is buggy, which is odd. I sent an email to the list
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