/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-01-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 07 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [13:29] <glazou> Bert : ping
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# [17:23] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/07-css-irc
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# [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
# [17:26] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:26] * glazou changes topic to 'logs: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/today - 2015-01-07 telcon ; no agenda this week, see w3c-css-wg for explanation'
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# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aaaa
# [17:57] <Florian> Zakim, I am aaaa
# [17:57] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Lea
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
# [17:58] <astearns> zakim, aabb is adobe-seattle
# [17:58] <Zakim> +adobe-seattle; got it
# [17:58] <astearns> zakim, adobe-seattle has astearns, fantasai
# [17:58] <Zakim> +astearns, fantasai; got it
# [17:58] * leaverou is on a terrible connection today :/
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# [17:59] <bcampbell> IPCaller is me
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# [17:59] <dael> zakim, IPCaller is bcampbell
# [17:59] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
# [17:59] <astearns> zakim, adobe-seattle has sylvaing, cabanier
# [17:59] <Zakim> +sylvaing, cabanier; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +33.1.39.21.aacc
# [18:00] <glazou_> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou_; got it
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P18
# [18:00] <antonp> Zakim, ??P18 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:00] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [18:00] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Plh
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +BradK
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P22
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# [18:02] <zcorpan> Zakim: p22 is zcorpan
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# [18:02] <zcorpan> Zakim, p22 is zcorpan
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named 'p22'
# [18:02] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P22 is zcorpan
# [18:02] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's start.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I'm sorry about the agenda today. As I said, the events in Paris disrupted the work day. The emotion in tremendous.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Back to the message, there were two things to discuss. The date of the May meeting, we need to resolve on that. As I said from the outline, the number of seats on planes is declining in Europe because it's vacation.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: WE resolved to have it in NYC between 18-22 May hosted by Bloomburg, but we don't have exact days. andrey are you on the call?
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Let's wait on him, but we can say if we have blockers or pref on days. I prefer the first three days of the week.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Other people?
# [18:07] <astearns> no preference
# [18:07] <dael> dauwhe: First 3 days is fine.
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: People flying from CA?
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# [18:07] <dael> dbaron: I'm happy with beginning b/c it's closer to the AC meeting
# [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: No obj if we resolve on first three days? Andrey said he was booking a room for the whole week
# [18:08] <SteveZ> +1 for first 3 days
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P32
# [18:08] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P32 is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:08] <dael> RESOLVED: Meet 18, 19, 20 of May in NYC hosted by bloomberg
# [18:08] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: The 2nd item...oh bloomberg.
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: We suggested to have the main meeting 18, 19 20. Is that okay?
# [18:08] <dael> andrey: Yes.
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: Wonderful. Let's consider it closed.
# [18:08] <Bert> (Not sure I can come: Also WWW2015 the same week...)
# [18:09] <dael> andrey: I'll have room for 30 people. Is that enough?
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: I think so. It might limit observers.
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P35
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Let's set up the wiki ASAP and we'll see how it goes with number.
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: We'll need hotel rec from you.
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# [18:09] <dael> andrey: sure.
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Second thing is an action on everyone, we need agenda items for Sydney for CSS and Houdini. Please go to the wiki and add items.
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: Now I'm ready for whatever people want to disucss.
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# [18:10] <dael> glazou: I think fantasai wanted something and Florian said something about CSS3 UI.
# [18:10] <fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: I have a bunch on that and one on Selectors, I have a lot so I don't want to take all the time.
# [18:10] <dael> Topic: Psuedo Elements
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaee
# [18:11] <tantek> good morning
# [18:11] <tantek> called in a few minutes ago
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: There's a couple of things. One is the OM section, do we want FPWD with that and do we want an issue or note about the status of that and we're not sure if it's right. I'd like to know what to do with the OM section.
# [18:11] <tantek> Zakim, ??P35 is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:11] <BradK> Link?
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: There's one or two more issues.
# [18:11] * tantek at least I think it is
# [18:11] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:11] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:11] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#cssom
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: The OM section, the OM od CSS I think we're going to discuss during houdini meeting. It seems there's a concern about the state of what we have now and we want to revamp it.
# [18:12] <BradK> Thanks
# [18:12] <dael> ??: There's already an issue in the section.
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# [18:12] <dael> glazou: and it's a FPWD anyway, so it's harmless to put it there.
# [18:12] <dael> s/??/astearns
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: So put in the OM section and make it clear it may be changed
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Usually with a WD we think we're going in a direction, but we're not sure at all.
# [18:13] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#highlight-pseudos
# [18:13] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:13] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: So the ::spelling-error/::grammar-error, did we want it in the draft, or not? There was no resolution at TPAC.
# [18:13] <dael> tantek: I think selection should be in the draft, absolutely. There's been a lot of demand for it.
# [18:14] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: selection will be. Do i include ::spelling-erron
# [18:14] <andrey_r> I was asking for these to be included
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: In the words of the MOzilla editor there have been a lot of requests to style spelling different. grammar I don't remmeber as much, it's a lot harder to do, but I think putting it in the WD will make people think about it.
# [18:14] <dael> astearns: I agree.
# [18:14] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:15] <dael> tantek: I think I'm in favor, I think it's important in an early version of the draft.
# [18:15] <astearns> s/astearns/tantek/
# [18:15] <fantasai> s/selection will be/::selection will be for sure; it's the main reason we're publishing this draft/
# [18:15] * dael fantasai did you want a formal resolution on the OM?
# [18:15] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#highlight-security
# [18:15] * fantasai yes
# [18:15] <dael> astearns: What's the security concern?
# [18:15] <dael> tantek: It's based on what's in the dictionary.
# [18:15] <krit> s/astearns/tantek/
# [18:15] * dael fantasai can you write it?
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: There's a section on the security issues that I added at TPAC
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: [reads from spec]
# [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm happy to have that in
# [18:16] <astearns> s/simonsapin/florian/
# [18:16] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Florian/
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: So any obj against keeping these two pseudo elements in the spec?
# [18:17] <dael> RESOLVED: keep ::grammar-error and ::spelling-error in the draft
# [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:17] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (9%), adobe-seattle (8%), zcorpan (22%), +1.631.398.aaee (31%)
# [18:17] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [18:17] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: The wording in selectors is problimating b/c it's in a note. It also is...the wording is slightly different and we should figure that out on ww-style. I'm not sure the same wording would make sense.
# [18:18] <dael> tantek: It sounds like there's a general concern about user info leakage and that might merit it's own section.
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: They're in two different specs.
# [18:18] <dael> tantek: Up to you, than. Your choice.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: I'll note they should align.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Right now I'm suing must, for visited it's may.
# [18:19] <dael> dbaron: For visit it was backwards compats.
# [18:19] <dael> tantek: I'm happy with must.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: And it's more of a security problem.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: Not jsut the address book, but words specific to your work.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Or even some confidential information.
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this?
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to pub FPWD.
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Fine by me.
# [18:20] <dael> tantek: Yes, absolutely.
# [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of CSS-Pseudos
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Anything else fantasai?
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I think that was the only thing. There's another issue on pseudo elements.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: Let me pull the e-mail.
# [18:21] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0053.html
# [18:21] <fantasai> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<!DOCTYPE html>%0D%0A<style>%0D%0Ap%3A%3Aselection { background%3A rgba(0%2C255%2C0%2C0.5)%3B
# [18:21] <fantasai> }%0D%0A<%2Fstyle>%0D%0A<p>Test me <em>and me<%2Fem>.<%2Fp>
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: If you style p::selection and you have a decendant the text inside the decended doesn't get styled in 3 of 4 rendering engines. I wrote the spec assuming it would recieve the styling b/c I think that makes the most sense. THere's a test case link.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: This would require the browsers to change impl. I'd say hold off until we figure out exact inheritence, but I want to make sure the WG is okay to fix it.
# [18:22] <dbaron> I agree we should fix the behavior.
# [18:22] <BradK> Me too
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: The only thing I'm concerned with is I'm not sure if it's consistant on web author expectations. I agree the em in your e-mail should recieve the style of the p in your e-mail case.
# [18:23] <BradK> But I'm not an implementor
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: dbaron agrees we should fix. OTher browser vendors? Google, Apple Microsoft?
# [18:23] <dael> ???: For Apple I'd have to update.
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: Google? Microsoft?
# [18:23] <fantasai> s/???/smfr/
# [18:23] <fantasai> s/update/ask David Hyatt/
# [18:23] * dael is going to burn these headphones. They're awful.
# [18:23] * sgalineau can't imagine how an author would not consider this a bug
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: Is it okay for everyone if fantasai puts her proposal in the spec and we come back to it later?
# [18:23] <tantek> agreed
# [18:23] <zcorpan> there was a reply from rune about what Presto does http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0061.html
# [18:23] * leaverou sgalineau yup, this is definitely super confusing for authors if it doesn’t get fixed
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: I think her prop is the one that makese sense.
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Any obj to that?
# [18:24] <sgalineau> leaverou: they might just not use the feature as a result.
# [18:24] <tantek> would p ::selection help?
# [18:24] <tantek> is this an examples thing?
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Let's do that. Lets change the behavior and make it more author complient.
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: I think that's all I have on psuedo. I'll prep the FPWD if Bert will help?
# [18:25] * plh can help if needed
# [18:25] <dael> Bert: I won't be able to pub next week. Maybe ChrisL is available.
# [18:25] <leaverou> sgalineau: nope, they will, but with complicated selectors to involve every descendant (like p::selection, p ::selection)
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: I'll ask around.
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: plh can help. Thanks plh.
# [18:25] <sgalineau> leaverou: yes, some will go to great lengths. others will just decide it's not worth the pain.
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: I head Florian has CSS3 UI. Anything else?
# [18:25] <dael> bcampbell: I've been doing research on Flexbox still for break.
# [18:25] <zcorpan> tantek: you would need to do p::selection, p ::selection {} but it could get messy. suggestion is to make p::selection {} DWIM
# [18:25] <bcampbell> https://www.evernote.com/l/AJMBQc-dda1NGZW3BF8_WMXkK6k6h2k3C_0
# [18:26] <leaverou> sgalineau: it’s not that huge of a pain. It's mainly the confusion for authors that don't know it that should be a concern.
# [18:26] <bcampbell> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-flexbox/accessibility
# [18:26] * fantasai note to dael, remove evernote link from formatted minutes
# [18:26] * Florian is TabAtkins on the call?
# [18:26] <sgalineau> leaverou: I'd get frustrated if rearranging my markup a little broke my selection styling. but then I'm lazy.
# [18:26] <dbaron> fantasai, has the spec for ::selection defined the underlying model, or is it more vague still?
# [18:26] <dael> bcampbell: Not that link, sorry.
# [18:26] <dael> bcampbell: I created a wiki for the arguements. fantasai was nice enough to talk to me a lot. I've been talking to IBM. I'd like to start a discussion on the e-mail and come back to it.
# [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron, it's pretty explicit, but I'm unsure if it's well-written or correct
# [18:27] <leaverou> sgalineau: yup, I didn’t disagree on that. Unless someone is aware of the peculiarity, it’s frustrating and confusing
# [18:27] <dael> bcampbell: What I wanted to bring up was I was hoping people would keep it on their radar so we can get the comments gathered for next week
# [18:27] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:27] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: Let's do an action item.
# [18:27] <dael> ACTION everyone to review https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-flexbox/accessibility
# [18:27] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:27] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:28] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: What else, or shall we move to Florian?
# [18:28] <dael> ???: Anyone else having problems witht he new repository?
# [18:28] <dbaron> s/???/tantek/
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: Fine for me too.
# [18:28] <dael> tantek: Okay. I'll follow up.
# [18:28] * sgalineau ACTION: fix tantek
# [18:28] <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI
# [18:29] <Florian> cursor:auto (ISSUE 48)
# [18:29] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0531.html
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: I'll work off of who is here. Is TabAtkins here?
# [18:29] <dael> [silence]
# [18:29] * leaverou sgalineau to whom would that action be assigned?
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: This is from dbaron. It's specifying rather than the usinversal do magic with auto.
# [18:30] * sgalineau leaverou, at this stage florian might as well edit tantek too
# [18:30] <dael> dbaron: The reason auto is needed is that generally browsers want a pointer over not-text and an I-beam over text. Since those are oftern together we need a value that switches and auto has historically done that interop.
# [18:30] * tantek sgalineau ???
# [18:30] <fantasai> s/together/in the same element/
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: The original auto was so ill-defined it seems that everything browsers did with a cursor was under auto. Rather I think what can be in the UI stylesheet should be there rather than all magic in the auto value. I'd rahter auto is just pointer or I-beam.
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: There's a third for auto which is links.
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: That can be in UA stylesheet
# [18:31] * astearns ACTION: wrap everything sgalineau emotes in sarcasm tags
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: Okay, fine.
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: It makes sense to me and I'm in favor of this. We have to resolve what it means to switch between virtical and horizontal. I have some suggestions on this.
# [18:32] <dbaron> Gecko only has 'auto' switch between pointer and the text cursors and does other things in the UA style sheet.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: For switching between vert and horz, that should be automatic unless we want to add a hoz text cursor and vert ext keyword.
# [18:32] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:32] <BradK> User-select:none on text should also prevent the automatic text cursor
# [18:32] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: We have both, but aotu is switching between those things. dbaron is proposing that we one use auto to switch between only those two things. SO the question is if we should, I have a suggestion for how.
# [18:33] <zcorpan> Zakim, ?PP7 is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named '?PP7'
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That makes sense to me.
# [18:33] <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P7
# [18:33] <Zakim> ??P7 should now be muted
# [18:33] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??PP7 is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named '??PP7'
# [18:33] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P7 is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:33] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is zcorpan
# [18:33] <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as zcorpan, glazou
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: What happens if you haev a resizable element and you're on the border. If we only switch between these cursors, does that mean we don't get a resize cursor?
# [18:33] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [18:33] <Zakim> zcorpan was already muted, zcorpan
# [18:34] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:34] <dael> dbaron: I have to look, but it's poss we should include it. The case where we've gotten bug reports is authors look at the spec and auto on a form control should mean the form control cursor and on a link the link cursor. I think we should say what switching is a part of auto.
# [18:34] * tantek oops comms device ran out of battery. plugging in.
# [18:34] <dael> dbaron: I'm prob not going to get an answer for resize in less then two or three minutes.
# [18:34] <SimonSapin> +1 for specs being explicit
# [18:35] <zcorpan> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:35] * fantasai notes that we have an auto-text-cursor value and a vertical-text-cursor value but not a horizontal-text-cursor value
# [18:35] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (3%), Florian (63%), adobe-seattle (20%), glazou_ (35%), dbaron (7%)
# [18:35] <tantek> I agree with specs explicit however I'm not sure we have good explicit language to put in yet.
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: Maybe the resizing behaviour is somewhat independant if you spec a cursor other than auto you may still and resize. I'm not sure on this one.
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai, I think we have the last two but not auto-text-cursor
# [18:35] <fantasai> "User agents may automatically display a horizontal I-beam/cursor (e.g. same as the vertical-text keyword) for vertical text, or for that matter, any angle of I-beam/cursor for text that is rendered at any particular angle. "
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: My concern is we have the resize. There's other things that could happen like a UA has a button that changes what you can do to an item and therefore the cursor, like if you hold control it's a hand.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: That should be doable with normal mech overriding.
# [18:36] <tantek> agreed with fantasai concerns
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: So the CSS cursor changes if you hold the control key?
# [18:36] * tantek waits for his comms device to restart.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: A UA that could change through te stylesheet. Why not?
# [18:37] <tantek> depends what you're hovering over
# [18:37] <tantek> or if you're dragging
# [18:37] <dael> dbaron: I think the question is if the UA has that, do they want it to not show if the author chooses cursor and I think no in which case you're selecting a mech outside CSS.
# [18:37] <tantek> isn't that the magic of auto?
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: I'm jsut not sure if everything a UA wants to do can't be done through the stylesheet. If it's out of scope it might be completely expressable.
# [18:38] <tantek> yes, that ^^^
# [18:38] <dael> dbaron: If there's other things that need to be here we should list. I don't think suto should be magic.
# [18:38] <Zakim> +??P13
# [18:38] <tantek> zakim, ??p13 is me
# [18:38] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:38] <dael> smfr: Looking here we may use the hand or the text input is a pointer
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: If the curor isn't there do you still show the resize?
# [18:38] <dael> smfr: It looks like me don't.
# [18:38] * TabAtkins belated regrets, this is the last day of my winter vacation.
# [18:38] <dael> dbaron: I suspect Gecko has some sort of anon content that has a cursor style on it for the resize handle.
# [18:39] <glazou> TabAtkins: enjoy :-)
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: I'm okay with spec more details on auto, but I don't feel like we understand. There's some cases that aren't covered.
# [18:39] <BradK> *:dragging { cursor: hand; }
# [18:39] <dael> dbaron: That's fine. We should define what it covers, not imply it covers everything that's in the UA stylesheet. We don't need to define on the call.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: There's another item where if auto can switch between vert and horx, there's also the diaganal. Does it do that?
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Text says UA can display horz for any text that's rendered at any angle. So text says you can so I don't know why you wouldn't.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Right, it's just that no one does that right now.
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: I think that's a recent edit to the spec.
# [18:40] <dael> tantek: I think that's been there for a while.
# [18:40] <dael> tantek: It's been there for a while.
# [18:40] * zcorpan do we allow changing the angle of the pointer also? :-)
# [18:41] <dael> dbaron: Recent in relation to the change in cursor impl.
# [18:42] <dael> tantek: I think the point in IRC earlier is that we don't have an explicit horz.
# [18:42] <dael> tantek: I think it was added because people were doing it. If you want to discuss deprication, that's another discussion.
# [18:42] * fantasai zcorpan: no, the pointer doesn't need to change angle because it's not dividing between two things. Resize cursors do need to do that, but we allow 4 options for that
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: dbaron suggested on the list about having a switch. I don't remember exactly what he said, bt if we should have a switch it should be poss rounded to 90 degrees. That's the baseline, what we're after.
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: Do we have anything we can resolve on?
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: Is there a resolution we want to get out of this?
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I'm not convinced we need vert either, but it's tere.
# [18:43] * fantasai would like the list section headings to not be <p> :)
# [18:43] <dbaron> ok, it changed between the 2003 LCWD and the 2004 CR. There were definitely drafts that described vertical-text and text as both fixed, though (i.e., prior to the 2004 CR)
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: We could have auto means auto-magic everything or we have auto may be a lot of things, but we define what they are and how they work and how to switch and everything else in the UA stylesheet.
# [18:44] <dael> tantek: The point of auto is I want to set this back to what it was becore I said anything. So it needs to be what the author expects.
# [18:44] <zcorpan> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:44] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [18:44] <dael> dbaron: We don't have that for other prop, though we've been talking about having it. I don't htink we want to solve it with.
# [18:44] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [18:44] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:44] <dael> zcorpan: I agree with dbaron that what can be expressed in the UA stylesheet shouldn't be a part of the auto keyword
# [18:45] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: I'm trying to understand the reasoning. I'm from the author prosp where I want it like it was before I touched it.
# [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai^: We had the 'default' keyword in Cascade to do exactly that for all properties, but impl's asked us to remove it.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: This is a general wish for CSS, not a specific one.
# [18:45] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: When that's changed we can address this, but we have introp.
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: interop is a disaster on this.
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: Is there a magic other value that UAs use if nothing is spec for the cursor?
# [18:46] <zcorpan> FYI https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#rendering already says the UA stylesheet should contain :link, :visited { text-decoration: underline; cursor: pointer; }
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: You put something in the UA stylesheet and if nothing overrides it, that's what takes effect.
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: Though we've unconvered that the rules are more complicated, I'm hearing a sort of agreement toward dbaron side, if others agree with tantek they should talk.
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: I'm saying we should speify, but we don't know what they're doing.
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: I'm saying I know what we do and zcorpan knows what Gecko does and it's not the same thing.
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: So you don't want interop?
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: We want to decide what interop should be on.
# [18:48] <zcorpan> s/zcorpan knows what Gecko/Simon knows what WebKit/
# [18:48] <dael> smfr: To give an ex in the webkit code there's interesting things happening if your curson is over a link YOu can click the link or click and start editing the link. There's a setting that applies to that under the author value right now.
# [18:48] * zcorpan doesn't recall claiming to know what webkit does though
# [18:48] * fantasai :)
# [18:49] <dael> smfr: And in addition to that it's something that's hard to describe in the UA stylesheet.
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: We're not going to solve this now.
# [18:49] <zcorpan> zakim, unmute me
# [18:49] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: Do we want to figure out the rules, or do we want to leave this as magic? WE can decide that and if we want the rules, we can do that on the list.
# [18:49] <BradK> a:editing { cursor: text; }
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: What do impl think?
# [18:49] * tantek is still getting "abort: authorization failed" with hg push :( :( :(
# [18:49] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [18:49] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:49] <dael> zcorpan: I think it's good to try and get closer to interop and align.
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: I'm for interop assuming we can do that
# [18:50] <gregwhitworth> Can we discuss this at F2F?
# [18:50] * dbaron tantek, you need to put the username/password in ~/.hgrc or elsewhere, just like you probably already did for the w3c username/password
# [18:50] * fantasai did you switch to the new server *and* change your credentials to the wiki.csswg.org auth?
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: If we spec in this case do this thing, in this case do this, else magic. If we can shrink the magic slowly, that would be great. I'd like to see those prop.
# [18:50] <gregwhitworth> Regarding cursor: Auto
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Do we intend auto should be everything, or that the UA stylesheet should be specific where it can and else auto and we try and define auto.
# [18:51] <dael> tantek: I don't think I understand that.
# [18:51] <zcorpan> the latter
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Do we want the UA stylesheet to have a selector that says cursor: auto, or do we want detailed things in the stylesheet except where we have to decide on auto.
# [18:52] <dael> smfr: I'm fine with the later. webkit only has links for the editing behavior I defined.
# [18:52] * tantek wonders if he should just give up on hg and try the github bridge :/
# [18:52] * fantasai has no opinion atm
# [18:52] <dbaron> I prefer the latter as well.
# [18:52] <tantek> I'll defer to the latter
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: So the two Simons are in favor of the latter.
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: obj?
# [18:52] <BradK> If we do the latter, then what happens if the author does the former?
# [18:53] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:53] <dbaron> proposed resolution: we intend 'auto' to cover behaviors that can't be described by other styles in the UA style sheet, and we want to define it more precisely, but we need to work out on the list what that definition should be
# [18:53] <dael> dbaron: Does that make sense?
# [18:54] <zcorpan> BradK - it would make links have a text cursor
# [18:54] <dael> Various: yes
# [18:54] <Florian> ::value and ::choices (Follow up on ISSUE 65)
# [18:54] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0046.html
# [18:54] <dael> RESOLVED: we intend 'auto' to cover behaviors that can't be described by other styles in the UA style sheet, and we want to define it more precisely, but we need to work out on the list what that definition should be
# [18:54] * tantek plinss are you around? can you double check that user csswg at tantek dot com (in email form) has write access to hg.csswg.org?
# [18:54] <glazou> tantek: plinss at TAG ftf
# [18:54] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
# [18:54] <tantek> thanks glazou - I'll await his email then :/
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: A while back we decided to dropt he pseudo elements that were in CSS3 UI. tantek made the edit, but we found two values. There was some evidence of intent to impl. I agree that value makes sense, I'm not a sure about choices, but given there's no impl I think they should go in pseudo spec.
# [18:55] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: So what do people think, keep, delete, move?
# [18:55] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:56] <dael> tantek: I'm particularly interested in impl feedback. If it's not a priority for other impl, that's a big piece of input, but if they will impl this year, we need that. Shuffling spec we can decide later from that information.
# [18:56] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:56] <dael> tantek: Tis is part of the larger do we want to keep making controls JSy or do we want to add smaller stuff to CSS that authors use for control.
# [18:56] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:56] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: To me ::values makes sense and ::choices doesn't, but I'm not impl.
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: As an author?
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:57] <dael> smfr: I don't think webkit has intention to add these soon.
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: When we discussed place-holder pseudo classes, we only added one for when it was shown, I think this was a combo between value psuedo class and pseudo element did everything you need.
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: I think that was a use case for ::value.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: If we remove ::value, we need ::place-holder.
# [18:58] <dael> dbaron: We agreeed to add ::place-holder. It hasn't been edited into psuedo-spec.
# [18:58] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:58] * zcorpan without the dash, though?
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: I'd like to see a trail for that and see what's going on there. Do you remember what meeting dbaron?
# [18:58] <dael> dbaron: No.
# [18:58] <glazou> zcorpan: yes
# [18:59] <dael> s/place=holder/placeholder
# [18:59] <astearns> Tucson
# [18:59] <dael> tantek: If we think it's sufficent and it's written, I think it's a good interum solution.
# [18:59] <zcorpan> s/place-holder/placeholder/g
# [18:59] <dbaron> placeholder resolutions in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20130206#l-654
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: If we have value, we don't need placeholder, but if we have placeholder, we might still want value.
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: But back to the earlier question, do people want to impl. You've got the comments from Mozilla.
# [19:00] * Joins: antenna_ (~antenna@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <dael> tantek: I think it was a refocus on ::placeholder
# [19:00] * krit needs to drop off
# [19:00] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:00] <astearns> email link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0393.html
# [19:00] <dael> dbaron: I just put a link to the IRC of the resolution. It was Feb 2013
# [19:00] <zcorpan> maybe ::value shouldn't select the placeholder
# [19:00] <dael> tantek: I was there and I don't remember this, but okay.
# [19:01] <dael> Florian: What are we lacking to make a decision.
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: We're lacking a write up of those two pseudos.
# [19:01] <tantek> we need these written up: :placeholder-shown & ::placeholder
# [19:01] <dael> Florian: It's just ::placeholder that isn't.
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: Should we action someone to write that up?
# [19:01] * Quits: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: We need to wrap up.
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: So I propose we action a pseudo-elements writer to write up ::placeholder
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: I think we should get that out there and follow up
# [19:02] <dael> ACTION fantasai write ::placeholder in pseudo spec
# [19:02] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-664 - Write ::placeholder in pseudo spec [on Elika Etemad - due 2015-01-14].
# [19:03] <BradK> Is XForms still a thing? Is that the only use case for '::repeat-item'?
# [19:03] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [19:03] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't sound like there's an immediate need to have ::value and ::choices so we should drop them to pseudo
# [19:03] * leaverou thinks authors will hack :placeholder-shown to target empty inputs if there's no pseudo-class for that
# [19:03] <BradK> OK
# [19:03] <dael> tantek: I think we have concensus on what, but not another.
# [19:03] * Florian BradK that's been removed already
# [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:03] <dael> glazou: We're past the hour. Thank you and we'll see you next week.
# [19:03] <Zakim> -tantek
# [19:03] <Zakim> - +1.519.513.aadd
# [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou_
# [19:03] <Zakim> -adobe-seattle
# [19:03] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:03] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:03] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [19:03] * tantek is still struggling with hg :(
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Florian
# [19:03] <dael> s/what/one
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Lea
# [19:03] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Plh
# [19:03] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:04] <Zakim> -vivien
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaee
# [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, +1.479.764.aaaa, Florian, dauwhe, Lea, +1.206.675.aabb, astearns, fantasai, bcampbell, sylvaing, cabanier, +33.1.39.21.aacc, glazou_, krit, antonp, Plh, BradK,
# [19:04] <Zakim> ... dbaron, vivien, SteveZ, +1.519.513.aadd, zcorpan, smfr, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, [Bloomberg], +1.631.398.aaee, tantek, hober
# [19:04] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:04] * dbaron leaverou, we could have a variant of attribute selector syntax that targets thing like the current value of a form control
# [19:04] * leaverou dbaron yup, that’s long overdue IMO
# [19:04] <vollick> Zakim, +1.519.513.aadd is me.
# [19:04] <Zakim> sorry, vollick, I do not recognize a party named '+1.519.513.aadd'
# [19:04] <Florian> I don't see the point of having ::placeholder if we have ::value, as you can write :placeholder-shown::value
# [19:05] * leaverou dbaron but if we do, do we also need :placeholder-shown? Isn't it just :empty-value[placeholder] ?
# [19:05] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:05] <leaverou> Florian++
# [19:05] * dbaron leaverou, no, since placeholder showing is more complicated than that
# [19:05] * zcorpan leaverou placeholder might or might not be shown when the value is empty, depending on UA
# [19:05] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:05] <Florian> leaverou: we still do. what you suggested does not help you know if the placeholder isn't shown because there isn't one, or if it isn't shown because the user typed something
# [19:06] * dbaron leaverou in particular, if you start editing and then make the value empty again, or tab through the field and leave it empty
# [19:06] * Quits: antenna_ (~antenna@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:06] * Quits: kwkbtr (~kwkbtr@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:06] * Quits: andrey_r (~andrey_r@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:07] * leaverou dbaron then :empty-value (assuming that's its name) would match again, and [placeholder] would match anyway
# [19:07] <Florian> or can the (user-typed) value and the placeholder be shown at the same time? that
# [19:07] <Florian> would exlain why you'd need both pseudos
# [19:08] <Florian> leaverou: I think the placehoder disapears if you click in the input field, even if you haven't typed anything yet, at least in some implementations
# [19:08] <leaverou> Florian: not any more, at least in most implementations
# [19:08] <Florian> this seems to be something reasonable people could disagree about, so I am not sure I'd want to make it impossible
# [19:08] <BradK> But that should be implementation specific, no?
# [19:09] <Florian> right
# [19:09] <Florian> Is there a similar case for browsers wanting to show the placeholder and the value at the same time, or is that silly, and :placeholder-shown::value is a reasonable replacement for ::placeholder ?
# [19:09] <dbaron> leaverou, the point is that you might be in a situation where the value is empty but the placeholder is not shown
# [19:10] <BradK> In theory, the placeholder could be shown as a tooltip whenever the field is focuses, even after the user starts typing.
# [19:11] <leaverou> BradK: hmm that’s a good argument. It would be even nicer if authors could make this possible via CSS. I.e. if the entire placeholder hiding happened via rules in the UA stylesheet that could be overriden
# [19:11] <Florian> leaverou: if you do that, that means that absent these rules, UAs would by default show the placeholder and the value, overlaping. Not sure I like that
# [19:12] <leaverou> Florian: I don’t see why UAs would implement this behavior without implementing the UA stylesheet rules for it
# [19:12] <tantek> tooltips don't show up on touch platforms
# [19:13] <BradK> Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }
# [19:13] <leaverou> tantek: the "tooltip" BradK referred to is about styling, not an actual tooltip
# [19:13] <BradK> In UA style sheet
# [19:13] <plinss> tantek: yes, you have access (username: tantek)
# [19:13] <Florian> leaverou: they wouldn't, but while I think relying on UA stylesheets to tailor behaviour to HTML makes sense, I am not sure they should be used to make sure content is at all readable
# [19:13] <BradK> tantek: yes
# [19:14] <Florian> I don't want CSS resets to mess up with that.
# [19:14] <tantek> plinss - thanks - now I have a different problem
# [19:14] <leaverou> Florian: that would mean CSS resets would explicitly style ::placeholder
# [19:15] <BradK> Instead of display:inline, it would be positioned, colored, block, etc.
# [19:15] <BradK> For tooltip effect
# [19:15] <leaverou> that sounds awesome
# [19:15] <BradK> CSS resets are evil.
# [19:15] <Florian> leaverou: Good ones would. I don't mind things being ugly, but I do mind things being unreadable "by default"
# [19:16] <Florian> BradK: yes they are, but they exist none the less, and if we can design to limit the amount of footgun we provide them, so much the better
# [19:16] <leaverou> Florian: nope, that would be terrible ones. CSS resets have a purpose, they shouldn't just be blindly resetting stuff
# [19:16] <tantek> "abort: push creates new remote head 61b8f79f63ae!"
# [19:16] <tantek> :( :( :(
# [19:17] <tantek> how do I force dump all local changesets and go back to what head the server has?
# [19:17] <tantek> I've already saved a copy of the only two files I modified
# [19:17] <tantek> so I can reapply the changes
# [19:17] <plinss> just make a new clone
# [19:17] <tantek> that takes forever
# [19:17] <Florian> rm -rf foobar; git clone .....
# [19:17] <tantek> when the problem should only be with a few files
# [19:17] * BradK agrees with Lea
# [19:18] <plinss> hg clone takes less than a minute for me
# [19:18] <tantek> how do you dump a local changeset?
# [19:18] <tantek> like if you have 5 changesets and you only want to keep the first 4?
# [19:18] <leaverou> Florian: So you want to make a perfectly good use case impossible for fear of the imaginary bad CSS reset?
# [19:18] <plinss> hg export
# [19:18] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:19] <BradK> Florian: I think it is worse if the user can't override the behavior because it is magic.
# [19:19] <tantek> sorry, by dump I mean drop
# [19:19] <tantek> not output ;)
# [19:19] <leaverou> BradK++
# [19:19] <leaverou> less magic, more goodies
# [19:19] <Florian> leaverou: no, but I don't see how your good use case becomes impossible if browsers disable the normal placeholder display mechanism when a value is typed. You can still make it show up my other means
# [19:19] <plinss> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/EditingHistory
# [19:19] <BradK> 
# [19:20] <leaverou> Florian: more complicated means
# [19:20] <plinss> tantek: in your case a hg strip may work for you: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/EditingHistory#Other_options
# [19:20] <tantek> indeed - it's only the last changeset I'm trying to dump
# [19:21] <BradK> Florian: what is the reset rule that you are imagining?
# [19:22] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
# [19:22] <BradK> What reset would mess up Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }?
# [19:22] <Florian> BradK: "::placeholder {display:inline; color: gray;}" or any other thing that so basic that it doesn't cause the place holder to get out of the way once the user starts typing
# [19:23] <Florian> "Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }" isn't sufficient though. It keeps the placeholder even if you're typing
# [19:23] <Florian> which is what I don't want
# [19:23] <tantek> and I'm back to abort: authorization failed
# [19:23] <Florian> I want it to disapear, even if I don't mind you bringing it back by other means if you want to
# [19:26] <tantek> "try to push obsolete markers to remote"
# [19:26] <tantek> yeah because that's understandable
# [19:26] <tantek> and then an hg pull -u says "adding remote bookmark master"
# [19:26] <Florian> Basically, the behavior I want as a default is ":not(:placeholder-show)::placeholder {display:none;}". Whether that should be in the UA stylesheet, or magic is less clear to me
# [19:26] <leaverou> Florian: users can always write careless rules to make things unreadable
# [19:26] <tantek> alright, for some reason in all this repo switchover it wanted to merge in a bunch of files I didn't touch
# [19:26] <BradK> Yeah, so I guess maybe you'd need Input:focus::placeholder:empty { display:inline; }
# [19:27] <tantek> css-inline/Makefile
# [19:27] <tantek> css-preslev/Overview.html
# [19:27] <tantek> css-preslev/Overview.src.html
# [19:27] <tantek> css-regions/Makefile
# [19:27] <tantek> css-shapes-2/Makefile
# [19:27] <tantek> css-template/Overview.src.html
# [19:27] <Florian> on the one hand it can be expressed in the UA stylesheet, so maybe it should be, but on the other hand, CSS should be robust, and to be that implies that by default (even without a UA stylesheet), things should not overlap and become unreadable
# [19:27] <BradK> Or so,etching
# [19:27] <tantek> so how do I know if I just screwed up those files or not - which I didn't touch but hg in its infinite wisdom decided needed to be in my change set
# [19:27] <BradK> Gah
# [19:27] <leaverou> BradK: :empty is taken :(
# [19:27] <tantek> I'm feeling a w3c meme come along
# [19:27] <tantek> hg push (flames in background)
# [19:27] <BradK> Or something that more accurately describes the current magic
# [19:28] <tantek> well at least http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/ is updated
# [19:28] <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-preslev/ appears to be untouched
# [19:28] * Florian tantek: switch to git. It has a mildly less friendly command line argument, but a vastly simpler internal model that never leaves you confused once you know how it works
# [19:28] <plinss> tantek: when you do a merge, files changed by others (on the other branch you’re merging) show up as diffs in the merge changeset, don’t worry about it
# [19:28] <leaverou> Florian: I believe details/summary behavior is by large set via UA stylesheets, non?
# [19:29] <BradK> Input:focus::placeholder:no-value { display:inline; }
# [19:29] <tantek> Florian - all command line revision control tools suck. too much magic, too easy to get into too many totally unuseful states
# [19:29] <leaverou> Florian: how is this different?
# [19:29] <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-regions/ appears to be untouched
# [19:29] <tantek> and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-template/ appears to be untouched
# [19:30] <plinss> tantek: odd that the master bookmark is still there (the server creates it temproarily to sync with github, to map the default branch to the master branch in git space), but it should delete it right after...
# [19:30] <tantek> so I'm just going to assume I didn't screwup the repository unless someone else finds a problem
# [19:30] * Florian tantek: that's why I like git. Very little magic as far as internals are concerned. I sometimes have to hunt for the right argument to get what I want, but never about what I should want
# [19:30] <leaverou> BradK: no :focus needed, placeholders are shown even w/out focus, just styled differently (darker color)
# [19:30] <plinss> tantek: I don’t believe you did
# [19:31] <Florian> leaverou: "details/summary"? what are you referring to?
# [19:31] <BradK> Ah, right.
# [19:31] <tantek> Florian "hunt for the right argument" <<<< that's the problem. It's supposed to be a *productivity* tool, not a F**** adventure game!
# [19:31] <leaverou> Florian: the <details> element
# [19:31] <tantek> just give me "View" "Edit" Save" any time
# [19:31] <Florian> leaverou: I need to go learn about this one
# [19:31] <BradK> :focus could be used to describe the old Mac way of hiding the placeholder when focused.
# [19:31] <tantek> all the pull push rebase add master whatever is so not needed in the 99% editing case
# [19:32] <tantek> worst kind of UI design - making everone learn *and use* the complex crap that 99% of the time 99% of the users never need
# [19:32] <BradK> Or it could be used to move the placeholder into a tooltip when focused.
# [19:32] * Florian tantek: I like quirky UI over simple model better than a complex model with a "simple" UI until some abstraction leaks
# [19:33] <tantek> I'd rather have a rarely quirky UI, than an always quirky UI.
# [19:33] <tantek> also last night and this morning I was seeing this:
# [19:33] <tantek> Warning: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections in /sites/csswg.org/drafts/htdocs/drafts/core/DBConnection.php on line 132
# [19:33] <tantek> and sometimes just:
# [19:33] <tantek> WARNING: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections
# [19:34] <tantek> just when trying to *view* http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/
# [19:34] * Florian tantek: I don't think git is that bad. It got a lowsy reputation early on, but nowadays, it is simple in simple situations.
# [19:34] <tantek> git is never simple. always at least 4 commands to do anything.
# [19:34] <leaverou> Florian: hmmm by a quick demo it doesn't look like its behavior is set via UA stylesheet rules, at least in Chrome, so scratch that http://dabblet.com/gist/5a67874e4f9fae2a9437
# [19:35] <tantek> Florian: anyway I appear to have committed a big huge batch of changes that I was working on which handles a bunch of issues with pending edits (all moved already)
# [19:35] <tantek> so now onto the next batch of issues with pending edits
# [19:35] <leaverou> tantek: why 4? git commit -a -m 'Message' && git push. 2 commands
# [19:36] <tantek> leaverou: what about the magic about pushing from your local repo to github?
# [19:36] <tantek> leaverou: also why 2?
# [19:36] <Florian> tantek: because saving and sharing are different things
# [19:36] <tantek> "Save" should be *ONE* command.
# [19:36] <leaverou> tantek: because you might not want your local commits pushed until you're sure about them
# [19:36] <Florian> one command to save, one to share
# [19:36] <leaverou> tantek: i.e. it's much easier to amend a commit when it's only local
# [19:36] <tantek> Florian - I already have a "local" save, that's called my text editor
# [19:37] <tantek> I don't need a separate git save
# [19:37] <tantek> that's just dumb
# [19:37] <tantek> so not needed in the 99% case
# [19:37] <tantek> leaverou: you know what's so much easier? a really simple (Revert) button or link on the UI.
# [19:37] <tantek> ZERO command line garbage
# [19:38] <tantek> or (Rollback) - which e.g. MediaWiki has
# [19:38] <Florian> leaverou: understood what you meant now. But I think that's different. with details/summary, even if the UA stylesheet was used to create that behavior, removing it would mean you lose the open/close behavior, but it would not cause unreadable overlapping content
# [19:38] <leaverou> tantek: revert is a mess when people have pulled from the repo you pushed
# [19:38] <tantek> command line UIs seem to be like developer frog boiling
# [19:38] <leaverou> tantek: that's why git makes it harder to amend a pushed commit
# [19:38] <leaverou> Florian: completely hidden content is worse than overlapping content!
# [19:39] <Florian> leaverou: it wouldn't be hidden, it would be completely shown as if you only had nested divs/spans
# [19:39] <tantek> and this is why I do all the command line stuff in batches
# [19:40] <tantek> because it's always a time overhead, and sometimes a disaster (like hopefully just this one time)
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# [19:40] <leaverou> Florian: depends on how that imaginary CSS reset chose to override it
# [19:40] <tantek> alright, I'm going to try one more "easy" issue just to see if my hg troubles are somewhat over for now
# [19:41] <Florian> leaverou: point being, you can design that sanely. If you want placeholder to be shown by default regarless of the presence of a value when there is no stylesheet, that's not the case
# [19:41] <tantek> Florian - do you think we have a chance of resolving all outstanding CSS3-UI issues before Sydney in time to publish another LCCR before Sydney?
# [19:41] <tantek> That's my goal anyway
# [19:42] <Florian> tantek: I think we have a decent chance
# [19:42] <Florian> tantek: and that's my goal too
# [19:42] <tantek> unless we can now publish LCCR heartbeat updates without resolving all open issues
# [19:42] <tantek> ok
# [19:43] <leaverou> Florian: but there's always a UA stylesheet there
# [19:43] <Florian> tantek: which is why pushing things like ::value to other specs (if we keep it) seems relevant now, even though it is boring adminitrativia. If the spec is close to a publication point, I'd like to remove the things that we know would hold it back due to lack of implementation
# [19:43] <leaverou> Florian: if you want to design it in such a way that authors can't mess it up, well, that's impossible for almost anything
# [19:45] <Florian> leaverou: to me, the design of CSS should be such that without a UA stylesheet, the document might be ugly and boring, but it shouldn't be unreadable
# [19:45] <Florian> then you can break it, but it should start unbroken (if bland)
# [19:45] <Florian> dinner time, though.
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# [19:49] <tantek> Florian - we're not close to publication point yet
# [19:49] <tantek> when we get to <10 open issues, we may be "close" :)
# [19:50] <tantek> aside re: Email http://xkcd.com/1467/
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# [20:05] <BradK> Later, gators
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# [20:08] <tantek> plinss: thanks for your help. the hg strip step was key and I think helped.
# [20:08] <plinss> tantek: cool, no problem
# [20:08] <tantek> trying another small edit now just to see if everything is back to a good state
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# [20:29] <tantek> huh - well there is this: https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/rev/e8a6267f7f3f
# [20:29] <tantek> side-effect of all the merging and crap from changing repositories
# [20:29] <tantek> hoping that looks ok
# [20:29] <tantek> figure I'll share it here just so others can take a look
# [20:32] <tantek> ok small edit worked
# [20:32] <plinss> tantek: yeah, that’s just a classical merge changeset
# [20:33] <plinss> if they bother you, you can generally rebase instead of merging
# [20:33] <tantek> no idea how I got those "newer" edits
# [20:33] <tantek> and had to commit them to the new repo
# [20:33] <tantek> but as long as the outcome is ok - I'm fine
# [20:33] <tantek> I think I alternately rebase and merge just to be sure
# [20:33] <plinss> the “newer” edits were committed after yours, but pushed first
# [20:34] <plinss> that’s why you had to merge them
# [20:34] <plinss> (fwiw: rebase avoids the need for merge, it takes your local branch and grafts it to the tip instead of merging)
# [20:35] <tantek> ok
# [20:36] <plinss> it may be easier to visualize what’s going on here: https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/graph/tip
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# [21:36] <tantek> plinss: neat. ok, all caught up with reviewing, minor updates to, and applying resolved issues with edits to CSS3-UI. That leaves us with 14 open issues.
# [21:37] <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/ is in pretty good shape. Going to context switch to another area for a bit.
# [21:37] <Florian> tantek: very nice, thanks a lot. I'll do a quick review to be sure we're all good, and then let's deal with the remaining 14.
# [21:37] <tantek> plinss: hopefully the TAG f2f is going well! aside: feel free to ping me if anything comes up that the AB could help with.
# [21:38] <tantek> Florian - appreciate it - yes - go ahead and review as I did make bunch of modifications to and beyond the patches / changes, but always in intent of resolutions.
# [21:38] <tantek> Also made a few formatting and editorial changes for better readability in general as I found opportunities to do so.
# [21:38] <plinss> tantek: will do, thanks
# [21:38] <Florian> great
# [21:39] <tantek> plinss: also, congrats on the server move and all that github integration. I'm still parsing it all but it sounds like a massive impressive amount of work.
# [21:40] <plinss> heh, thanks. The fun part was getting it all to work with the other systems… all up about 3 weeks of work
# [21:40] <tantek> crazy
# [21:41] <tantek> I may switch to trying to use the github flow at some point, but now that I've got the hg / bikeshed workflow "working" I'll likely stick with that until I have a good reason to switch.
# [21:44] <plinss> if your bikeshed output is relatively warning free, you should hg rm the Overview.html file and let bikeshed run on the server
# [21:44] <plinss> that way the server will automatically regenerate your spec whenever other specs change, so your cross-reference links stay up to date
# [21:46] <Florian> Bikeshed tends to change a lot and I am not sure what the latest updates did, but after the conversion, it was warning free
# [21:46] <tantek> hmm - may have to look into warnings
# [21:48] <plinss> looks like a bunch there now
# [21:50] <plinss> note that having warnings isn’t a showstopper from letting the server do the generation, you’ll just get emails with the wanings when you push
# [21:50] <plinss> (and you’ll get a yellow bikeshed icon on the spec telling the world about the warnings)
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# [23:19] <fantasai> Is anyone else having trouble cross-linking properties?
# [23:19] * fantasai couldn't get 'text-shadow' to cross link and is now having trouble with 'overflow-wrap'
# [23:24] * tantek just did one of those. let me check.
# [23:29] <tantek> just added a new link to CSS3BG border-style to CSS3-UI
# [23:29] <fantasai> So 'border-style' worked?
# [23:29] <tantek> huh that's odd - it's linking to the CSS2 version :/
# [23:29] <tantek> 'border-style'
# [23:29] <fantasai> Maybe all of the non-CSS2 cross-link sources died
# [23:29] <fantasai> plinss?
# [23:29] <tantek> hmm I seem to have simply confirmed your hypothesis
# [23:29] <tantek> though values seem to work
# [23:29] <fantasai> try linking to 'border-image'? :)
# [23:29] <tantek> e.g. 'hidden' links to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/#hidden
# [23:29] <fantasai> weird
# [23:30] <fantasai> the script is also crashing on something now that we've fixed or worked around the other errors
# [23:30] <tantek> \ ( ? ) /
# [23:30] * fantasai can't get css-text-decor-4/Overview.bs to compile
# [23:30] * fantasai likes that emoticon, should use it in the future :p
# [23:31] <astearns> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/W6pwzUDI
# [23:33] * tantek fantasai I just made it up ;) (though it's too obvious not to have been used previously)
# [23:36] <tantek> lol why does IRCCloud need scripts from Stripe, Facebook, Twitter, Vine?
# [23:36] <tantek> no, seriously. why?
# [23:36] * tantek is really appreciating NoScript
# [23:42] <plinss> plinss: taking a look...
# [23:47] <plinss> fantasai: the only anchors I see for border-style in the spec db are for backgrounds-3
# [23:49] <plinss> text-shadow shows up in text-3 and text-decor-3
# [23:49] <plinss> maybe something changed in bikeshed?
# [23:50] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [23:55] <plinss> the bikeshed crash on text-decor-4 is a bug in bikeshed, but amusingly it’s a bug in code that’s trying to report an error and die anyway…
# [23:55] <fantasai> lol
# [23:56] <plinss> try replacing sectionID on line 389 & line 392 with targetID in your local copy
# [23:56] * fantasai this is why I like statically-typed languages better...
# [23:59] <jcraig> tabatkins or Florian, is there any progress on the high contrast MFs since TPAC? As a reminder: microsoft's original proposal is too specific to their implementation. We've been discussing a variant in IndieUI UC: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#user-contrast ... I think TPAC discussion was you wanted to consider the syntax more: user-setting(contrast) or something.
# [23:59] <tantek> high contrast MFs?
# [23:59] <Florian> jcraig: Not forgotten. I asked Tab a while ago if I should take care of it or if he would, and he said he would
# Session Close: Thu Jan 08 00:00:00 2015

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