/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-01-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 09 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  4. # [00:05] <tantek> no - "need more web dev involvment" is the wrong framing
  5. # [00:05] <tantek> other way around
  6. # [00:05] <tantek> if you're not doing web dev yourself, you probably shouldn't be spec writing
  7. # [00:06] <tantek> if it were up to me I would require spec writers to be doing *active* web dev on their own personal web site
  8. # [00:10] <liam> yeah, i think that's also a good idea
  9. # [00:10] <liam> (it's part of why i have http://www.fromoldbooks.org/ going)
  10. # [00:12] <liam> although part of that is also a test-bed for XQuery stuff, for the same sort of reason
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  12. # [00:16] <liam> but CSS is large enough now that you aren't going to find people who do all the things with it that are being done, so you need also to get good representation
  13. # [00:23] <liam> there are also people in the CSS WG who don't know how to make a Web App, or who have not made SVG images, or who have not made a printed book with CSS that contains multiple columns, footnotes, an index, colour managed workflow, JFIF and PRISM metadata for the printer to use, etc. ... is that OK? To some extent you have to avoid saying you can't write about things you haven't done, or only criminals can write crime fiction.
  14. # [00:28] <tantek> no one said "find people who do all the things with it that are being done" - no need to strawman like that
  15. # [00:28] <tantek> but rather, if you're spec'ing someting, you should be trying it out on your own website
  16. # [00:28] <tantek> no one ever said "all the things" - so that's a strawman
  17. # [00:29] <tantek> e.g. I don't make SVG images and I don't spec SVG. that's fine.
  18. # [00:29] <tantek> these days nearly every website is a web app so there's no excuse there
  19. # [00:29] <tantek> and the fact that you would bring up "a printed book" shows you didn't get the author's point about edge cases.
  20. # [00:30] <tantek> on the web, a printed book *IS* an edge cse
  21. # [00:30] <liam> i don't mean it as a straw person :) but rather, that you have to have a mix of people, and yes, each of them should have experience with the aspects they're specing
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  23. # [00:30] <liam> I used a printed book as a concrete example of paged media
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  25. # [00:31] <tantek> and again, paged media is *an edge case* on the web
  26. # [00:31] <tantek> that's the point
  27. # [00:31] <tantek> so much more time has been spent by so many more people on paged media than on vertical centering - and that's a mistake
  28. # [00:32] <tantek> whereas huge portions of websites need / use / hack some form of vertical centering
  29. # [00:32] <liam> well, i agree about centering blocks
  30. # [00:32] <tantek> your bringing up of print / paged media is an example of the larger problem of not seing the common cases for the edge cases
  31. # [00:33] <liam> ebooks may be more widely used than you think
  32. # [00:33] <liam> and the division between them and the web is fading.
  33. # [00:34] <liam> (both horizontal and vertical centering, and more usefully centering but with an offset, are of course of use in paged media too, so it's not necessarily an argument of one thing or the other)
  34. # [00:35] <tantek> "not necessarily an argument of one thing or the other" - it is in terms of time the group puts toward something
  35. # [00:35] <tantek> a telcon is 1 hr. a f2f has limited days. time spent on one thing is time not spent on another
  36. # [00:35] <tantek> opportunity cost
  37. # [00:36] <liam> when i came to the CSS WG to talk about moving the XSL-FO work to CSS as pure CSS, I suggested a sub-group for that reason, and there was strong pushback, people wanting everything in the main group
  38. # [00:37] <tantek> indeed - those with "high fidelity" needs outnumbered and somehow dominated more of the agenda of CSSWG meetings
  39. # [00:37] <liam> are you suggesting, though, thre should be a way for CSS participants to vote on which problems to address?
  40. # [00:37] <tantek> the simpler, flexible, common web needs were neglected
  41. # [00:37] <tantek> not at all - voting won't solve this
  42. # [00:38] <liam> (we did do something a bit like that in XSL-FO actually, with some limited success)
  43. # [00:39] <tantek> because the voters do not represent the demographic
  44. # [00:39] <tantek> that's the problem
  45. # [00:39] <tantek> hence the reference to academics etc.
  46. # [00:39] <tantek> (in the original post)
  47. # [00:39] <tantek> but also bigcorp reps
  48. # [00:39] <tantek> (non-browser)
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  54. # [01:03] <liam> well, there's a danger in assuming that meeting the needs of a particular demographic will suffice for everyone of course
  55. # [01:08] <tantek> the worse danger is worrying more about the needs of "everyone" more than the needs of the 80% case, so much so that the 80% case is neglected.
  56. # [01:08] <tantek> that's what's happened
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  191. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> tantek: Re: the guy on Medium, the fact that he conflates Grid, Flexbox, and Multicol shows he doesn't have more than a superficial understanding of the problem domain.
  192. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Which, sure, most people don't; the difference between "multicol provides an inline context" and "flexbox only provides block contexts" isn't obvious, and the reasons for/against each are kinda advanced.
  193. # [19:35] <tantek> but I think that "doesn't have more than a superficial understanding of the problem domain" is the point
  194. # [19:36] <tantek> we should be prioritizing simpler solutions to more *common* problems (not "kinda advanced") that don't require a "more than a superficial understanding of the problem domain."
  195. # [19:36] <tantek> the multiple divs thing is a decent test
  196. # [19:36] <tantek> as in, we should be aiming to minimize that, to 1 if possible, for common cases
  197. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> You're wanting impossible things. Making common cases simple requires a multitude of solutions; there are a lot of "common" cases.
  198. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> And we do that pretty decently - multicol, flexbox, and grid all solve different common cases. They're not good at solving each other's cases, for the most part.
  199. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> They blend together *a little*, which is where Dimitri is jumping in and thinking he knows better.
  200. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> But it's very little. You can make multiple columns of things in all three of them, with different tradeoffs.
  201. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> But Grid isn't actually designed for that, and it only barely allows it. Flexbox and Multicol do it in two different ways, affording different use-cases.
  202. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> "a bunch of blocks" for Flexbox, which lets us do various alignments and manipulations more simply, and "a bunch of text" for multicol, which lets us, well, format text.
  203. # [19:57] <tantek> I think he would have been happy with flexbox had it been shipped/stable/implemented like 5 years ago.
  204. # [19:57] <tantek> that's a different problem. how long it has taken to get flexbox "right" and how many breaking changes it's had is a bit ridicluous (not that I have any idea or suggestion for how it could have gone any better :( )
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  206. # [20:00] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "6955 insertions(+), 3486 deletions(-)" in a the HTML generated by Bikeshed. I’ll just assume it’s not significant… :)
  207. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yeah, I've been fiddling with the serializer. Don't worry about it. ^_^
  208. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Probably gonna fiddle with it more. Trying to make it not generate unnecessary whitespace.
  209. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> tantek: Sure, everyone would be happier if everything they wanted already existed. And breaking changes do suck, but they iron out and people forget about them. See: gradients.
  210. # [20:03] <tantek> TabAtkins: agreed on both accounts. Flexbox feels like an outlier however. Gradients is somewhat too.
  211. # [20:03] <SimonSapin> plinss or TabAtkins: can I haz push access to github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts ?
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  213. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> tantek: They are indeed. I mess things up a lot. ^_^
  214. # [20:05] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/6
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  216. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Merged, and invited you to pull access.
  217. # [20:08] <SimonSapin> cool, thanks
  218. # [20:08] <SimonSapin> now that http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ proxies to http://drafts.csswg.org/ , which is the preferred URL?
  219. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> I guess the one that it proxies to.
  220. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> I don’t really care, but it seems better to, hum, standardize on just one. What do you think plinss?
  221. # [20:14] <SimonSapin> (Also, I’m very happy how everything Just Works when I push to github. Thanks Peter!)
  222. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> All right, time to delete my repo and clone up a git one.
  223. # [20:19] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  224. # [20:21] <tantek> well, if TabAtkins is making the switch...
  225. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Man, I was waiting with bated breath to make the switch.
  226. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> I like git *so* much better.
  227. # [20:22] <tantek> I figure if I just shadow TabAtkins then whenever I run into problems I can just bug him about it. And then document it of course.
  228. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> This is a fine strategy, yes.
  229. # [20:23] <tantek> speaking of shadowing TabAtkins - any luck with an AirBnB for Sydney?
  230. # [20:23] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  231. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Have not done any looking yet. Will do so in the immediate future.
  232. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Buying my plane tickets today.
  233. # [20:23] <tantek> awesome. count me in.
  234. # [20:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: should the LC mention be removed on http://www.w3.org/Style/2011/CSS-process ?
  235. # [20:23] <tantek> yeah today is a fine day for plane tickets.
  236. # [20:24] <SimonSapin> flying 24 hours is gonna be fun :]
  237. # [20:24] <tantek> lololol http://www.w3.org/Talks/2010/0505-Web-Oviedo/snakes-traced.svg had not seen that before.
  238. # [20:24] <tantek> how is that not on w3cmemes?!?
  239. # [20:25] <tantek> Please attribute to http://www.w3.org/Style/2011/CSS-process#nonlinear (no joke with that fragid)
  240. # [20:25] <tantek> SimonSapin - thanks for the laugh
  241. # [20:26] <SimonSapin> tantek: I’m pretty sure there was one a lot like it
  242. # [20:31] <SimonSapin> https://twitter.com/CSScommits seems to only pick up the merge commit for github pull requests
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  248. # [21:35] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@public.cloak)
  249. # [22:25] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  250. # [22:34] * Joins: Livio (~Livio@public.cloak)
  251. # [22:41] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  252. # [22:48] * Parts: Livio (~Livio@public.cloak) (Livio)
  253. # [22:49] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  254. # [22:53] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  255. # [22:53] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  256. # [22:54] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  257. # [22:58] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@public.cloak) ("Lingo: www.lingoirc.com")
  258. # [22:59] * Quits: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  259. # [23:02] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
  260. # [23:05] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  261. # [23:16] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  262. # [23:24] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  263. # [23:27] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  264. # [23:39] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  265. # [23:48] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  266. # Session Close: Sat Jan 10 00:00:00 2015

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