/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-01-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 13 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  11. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Whoever has control over the moderation queue, there's a further email about ethiopian list numbering that needs to be approved.
  12. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Bert: ^^^
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  23. # [00:49] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: We mine as well discuss this here than on www-style for the next hour
  24. # [00:49] * shepazu is now known as shepazu_away
  25. # [00:49] <gregwhitworth> I read "The narrowest inline-size a box could take that doesn’t lead to inline-dimension overflow"
  26. # [00:49] <gregwhitworth> this to say that find the smallest the box can be
  27. # [00:49] <gregwhitworth> which in the example provided is the word "programmer"
  28. # [00:50] <gregwhitworth> so the width of the image is calculated from that
  29. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Again, I don't know how you're calculating that. Why aren't you including the image in the set of things that can affect the min-content size?
  30. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> That is what I said in my email, that I would prefer to include the image
  31. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> There's nothing in the cited text that says "(only pay attention to text, not images)".
  32. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> I agree
  33. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> we're on the same page
  34. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Well then Chrome isn't the most standards-compliant one. ^_^
  35. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> I initially thought that
  36. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> but this is indeed the most Narrow it can be
  37. # [00:51] <gregwhitworth> is it not?
  38. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> It's impossible to tell! Because we don't know how wide the image should be!
  39. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> The answer to the question is "mu" right now.
  40. # [00:53] <gregwhitworth> I don't know what "mu" means
  41. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> It's the non-answer.
  42. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Very zen. ^_^
  43. # [00:55] * shepazu_away is now known as shepazu
  44. # [00:55] <gregwhitworth> I think that images should be considered content and contribute to the max of the container
  45. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Yes. Now: how?
  46. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> The spec doesn't define how, which is why the answer is "mu".
  47. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Or "undefined", if you prefer.
  48. # [00:57] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  49. # [00:57] <gregwhitworth> How Gecko is doing it - get it's width and use that as the width if it is larger than your current max (currently the longest word)
  50. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's *a possible* answer that we can put in the spec. Note that my response to you was questioning where in the spec you were seeing text that would let you claim Chrome was being compliant.
  51. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Though I don't think we want that to be the answer, btw. If you set "width: 50px" or "max-width: 50px" on the element, I don't think we want min-content on a parent to instead grab 320px from the intrinsic size.
  52. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> That would end up looking ridiculous.
  53. # [00:59] <gregwhitworth> Seeing min-content block-size I assumed (and maybe incorrectly) that min-content inline-size meant that you wanted truly the most narrow you could get which is what Chrome does
  54. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Don't assume. There's no text defining "most narrow". You're inventing behavior there, which is confusing me. ^_^
  55. # [01:01] <gregwhitworth> sounds good
  56. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> We have the concept of min-content contribution specifically to handle the question of "how big is this when you want it to be as narrow as possible?" for arbitrary things.
  57. # [01:02] <gregwhitworth> I think this is one of those situations where I can see an arguement for both.
  58. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> For text, this is trivial - it's the longest word.
  59. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> But everything else needs to actually define it. We ahven't yet done that for replaced elements, which I suspect is an accidental oversight.
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  65. # [01:17] <liam> maybe it should be the longest word of the alt text :)
  66. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Nah, alt text doesn't exist. It's either a replaced element image, or it's text, depending on load status or whatever. There's no "alt" once rendering kicks in.
  67. # [01:29] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  68. # [01:32] <fantasai> The min-content size of a replaced element should be its size
  69. # [01:32] <fantasai> if that depends on its containing block then it's zero
  70. # [01:33] <fantasai> Well, here's what we say about it atm : file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css-sizing/Overview.html#replaced-intrinsic
  71. # [01:33] * fantasai sigh
  72. # [01:33] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-sizing#replaced-intrinsic
  73. # [01:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  74. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That means that <div style="width: min-content;"><img src="500px-wide-image.jpg" style="width: 100px;"></div> will make the <div> 500px wide, which is silly.
  75. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Or wait, by "size", do you mean its layout size?
  76. # [01:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: <div> isn't a replaced element
  77. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> (when definite)
  78. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Obvs. ^_^ The case we're talkinga bout is an ancestor using min-content size.
  79. # [01:39] <fantasai> I didn't say "intrinsic size" now did I :)
  80. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> So yeah, if the min-content contribution is its size when definite, and zero otherwise, I think that works correctly.
  81. # [01:40] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  82. # [01:40] <fantasai> The min-content size of the <img> is its intrinsic size. It's min-content contribution is whatever its size ends up as (or zero if we can't determine)
  83. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  84. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> That latter part isn't in the spec yet.
  85. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> greg was saying he mildly preferred deferring to intrinsic size when we cant' determine.
  86. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> So that in the example in the thread, the image doesn't shrink to zero when there's no text.
  87. # [01:42] <fantasai> Right
  88. # [01:42] <fantasai> The min-content contribution is the intrinsic size because the min-content size is the intrinsic size
  89. # [01:43] <fantasai> If the intrinsic size depends on the container, though
  90. # [01:43] <fantasai> then it's going to be zero
  91. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think that's necessary.
  92. # [01:44] * fantasai thinks
  93. # [01:44] <fantasai> actually, I think we defined it as 300pxx150px
  94. # [01:44] <fantasai> because legacy
  95. # [01:45] * fantasai points to the spec link
  96. # [01:45] * fantasai is on a very high-latency connection....
  97. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> We did not define that.
  98. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> We don't specify the min-content contribution of replaced elements at all.
  99. # [01:46] <fantasai> While I think that is technically true, the general principle is, if you don't have a size specified, your min-content contribution is your min-content size plus border-margin-padding
  100. # [01:46] <fantasai> And we do define the min-content size
  101. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> Sure, as the intrinsic size, which is wrong.
  102. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> (and is not 300x150)
  103. # [01:47] * fantasai watches the characters appear on the screen at a 2/s rate
  104. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> omg
  105. # [01:48] <fantasai> why is it wrong?
  106. # [01:48] <fantasai> s/it/the spec/
  107. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Because it claims that, in the example above, the div should be 500px wide
  108. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Example: <div style="width: min-content;"><img src="500px-wide-image.jpg" style="width: 100px;"></div>
  109. # [01:49] <fantasai> No it doesn't
  110. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> It says the min-content size is the intrinsic size.
  111. # [01:49] <fantasai> you're mixing up min-content size and min-content contribution again.
  112. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Thus, in the absence of min-content contribution text, the min-content contribution is also 500px
  113. # [01:50] <fantasai> The min-content size of the image is 500px
  114. # [01:50] <fantasai> Its min-content contribution is 100px
  115. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Where are you getting that from?
  116. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> There's no text in the spec defining that.
  117. # [01:51] <fantasai> There isn't, and that's a bug
  118. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> I know!
  119. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> >_<
  120. # [01:51] <fantasai> but there is a sentence in pretty much every casee that says
  121. # [01:51] <fantasai> or suchlike
  122. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> All you people keep saying "X is Y" when you mean "X should be Y, after we write the spec text defining it as such". >_< >_< >_<
  123. # [01:52] * fantasai dammit paste didn't work
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  125. # [01:56] <fantasai> ugh
  126. # [01:56] <fantasai> the whole spec is broken on its translation of min-content size to min-content contribution
  127. # [01:56] <fantasai> but if you do it right in any case and apply that formula to replaced elements, the definition is correct
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  129. # [01:58] <fantasai> I think we may want to split min-content/max-content sizes and min-content/max-content contributions into entirely separate chapters
  130. # [01:58] <fantasai> the spec is confusing itself
  131. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> The contributions are usually defined in terms of min/max sizes, so that's probably not necessary.
  132. # [01:58] <fantasai> and us :)
  133. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> I don't think the spec is confusing at all. It's just missing a sentence for replaced elements.
  134. # [02:00] <fantasai> Feel free to add it; it would be equivalent to the sentence fro block-level non-replaced elements... if that is correct
  135. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> I think it is.
  136. # [02:08] * Parts: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  137. # [02:14] * fantasai clears the ehterpad's list of grid layout issues and adds them to the WG agenda instead
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  139. # [02:38] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
  140. # [02:39] <fantasai> jdaggett: astearns was wondering when CSS Fonts will convert to Bikeshed, and also when a CSS4 Fonts draft will appear
  141. # [02:39] <jdaggett> when bikeshed stops sucking? :P
  142. # [02:39] <astearns> (I'd like to see min-font-size and max-font-size added to level 4)
  143. # [02:40] <jdaggett> tab attempted it but the output is a big frigging mess
  144. # [02:40] <jdaggett> and same issues affect other specs too
  145. # [02:40] <jdaggett> tab told me to fix it in the python code
  146. # [02:40] <jdaggett> whatever
  147. # [02:40] <fantasai> lol
  148. # [02:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: which issues bother you specifically?
  149. # [02:41] <jdaggett> i think the whole use of the spec database is just wrong
  150. # [02:41] <fantasai> ?
  151. # [02:42] <jdaggett> bikeshed looks up refs in the spec database first, *then* in biblio.ref
  152. # [02:42] <jdaggett> so you can't fix refs locally, you have to fix refs in the frigging spec database
  153. # [02:43] <jdaggett> but the larger issue is that the fonts spec uses both descriptors and properties with the same name
  154. # [02:43] <jdaggett> which was a bad party with bert's processor
  155. # [02:43] <fantasai> Is the issue there a) difficulty of updates b) waiting for updates to take effect or c) offline access
  156. # [02:43] <jdaggett> and a similarly bad party with bikeshed
  157. # [02:44] <fantasai> jdaggett: do you have a preferred idea for fixing the bad party?
  158. # [02:44] <fantasai> since it seems all around bad...
  159. # [02:44] * Quits: lajava (~javi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  160. # [02:44] <jdaggett> basically, the long and short of it is that moving css3 fonts to bikeshed is a non-trivial task
  161. # [02:44] <jdaggett> and i can't justify the time spent on that
  162. # [02:45] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think Tab already ran a conversion on it and would be happy to update it to the latest for you, if you just give him permission
  163. # [02:46] <jdaggett> no, he made an attempt
  164. # [02:46] <jdaggett> but the output was a mangled piece of shit (pardon my french)
  165. # [02:47] <jdaggett> not an "updating" issue, it's a "going over the output and figuring out how to fix the bugs" issue
  166. # [02:48] <jdaggett> tab has repeated the "daggett was the only one using the features in bert's preprocessor" stuff
  167. # [02:49] <jdaggett> but that was simply me trying to work around the mixups that occurred between properties and descriptors (e.g. font-weight, font-family, etc.)
  168. # [02:49] <jdaggett> and not me having any special desire to use features of the preprocessor
  169. # [02:50] <jdaggett> plus, the whole "where do references come from?" doesn't help matters
  170. # [02:55] <fantasai> Well, I think it'd be good for us to all move over to bikeshed. It's got very good cross-linking (across specs), and that helps everyone.
  171. # [02:55] <fantasai> That said, it's out put isn't very pretty, I agree.
  172. # [02:56] <jdaggett> um, not pretty and broken are different... :P
  173. # [02:56] <jdaggett> the bikeshed output for the fonts spec is broken
  174. # [02:56] <fantasai> So, if we can figure out what-all is bothering you, and fix it, then that'd be great.
  175. # [02:56] <jdaggett> example of specref issue: http://specref.jit.su/bibrefs?refs=CSS3-FONTS,css-fonts-3
  176. # [02:58] <jdaggett> the reference in the existing spec returns "WD" while the [css-fonts-3] ref returns something else
  177. # [02:59] * fantasai is on the slow side atm, due to very high latency connection
  178. # [03:01] <fantasai> Looks like that database needs some cleanup
  179. # [03:02] <fantasai> Ok, so, we can clean it up. Bug #1. What else is a blocker? :)
  180. # [03:03] * Joins: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak)
  181. # [03:05] <jdaggett> descriptor/property clusterfuck is bug #1
  182. # [03:05] <jdaggett> spec database issues are a minor annoyance
  183. # [03:06] * shepazu is now known as shepazu_away
  184. # [03:07] * shepazu_away is now known as shepazu
  185. # [03:07] <jdaggett> just look over the bikeshed output: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/Overview.html
  186. # [03:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: Do you have any good ideas on solving the descriptor/property problem?
  187. # [03:08] <jdaggett> compare to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts
  188. # [03:08] <jdaggett> look at the descriptor table
  189. # [03:08] <jdaggett> look at all the links to property values in font-variant (mess)
  190. # [03:08] <jdaggett> look at the references (author = ???)
  191. # [03:12] * fantasai loading... still loading
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  193. # [03:14] * fantasai waves to estellevw
  194. # [03:14] <estellevw> hi
  195. # [03:15] * Quits: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  196. # [03:17] * fantasai still loading
  197. # [03:19] <jdaggett> anyways, needs work...
  198. # [03:19] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  199. # [03:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: wrt references, which of the above is the problem with the specref database?
  200. # [03:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: I presume we can update the database to be correct
  201. # [03:20] <fantasai> (if that's not the case, then we have bigger problems)
  202. # [03:22] <jdaggett> i think the source-tree copy of biblio.ref should take precedence, tab doesn't (or at least that's where he started telling me to submit bikeshed patches)
  203. # [03:27] * Joins: fantasai_ (~fantasai@public.cloak)
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  208. # [04:18] * liam wonders why fantasai is visiting the international space station
  209. # [04:30] * fantasai isn't, but isn't on the ground either
  210. # [04:35] * liam dispatches carrier pigeons
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  227. # [07:02] <SimonSapin> fantasai: https://mosh.mit.edu/ is nice
  228. # [07:04] <SimonSapin> it’s SSH with local input echo (and other nice things)
  229. # [07:12] <liam> getting back inside the space station was probably her priority
  230. # [07:12] <liam> unless by "isn't [in the space station'} fantasai didn't mean "I'm in close proximity to the space station but outside it" :-)
  231. # [07:33] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
  232. # [07:34] <SimonSapin> “Open the door, HAL.”
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  236. # [07:51] <liam> SimonSapin, :) :)
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  286. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> Wait, what? I have no idea what jdaggett means by "output sucked", and I certainly never told him to "fix it in the Python code".
  287. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> Specref now *includes* biblio.ref's data.
  288. # [17:12] <TabAtkins> A spec using a bunch of properties and descriptors with the same name is slightly annoying to work with in Bikeshed, but not terrible; it's unworkable in Bert's preprocessor, since everything links to some arbitrary definition.
  289. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> "It's better than Bert's" isn't much of a compliment :)
  290. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> I mean, disambiguating things with the same name is never *fun*, in any system.
  291. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> It means you have to refer to things as either 'font-weight' or '@font-face/weight', is all.
  292. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> Or go all out and write <a property>font-weight</a> and <a descriptor>font-weight</a>.
  293. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> Bert's was actually broken and unfixable without constant use of title=''
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  316. # [19:46] <SimonSapin> plinss: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries4/ (from my browser history, so I assume worked at some point) is a 404
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  319. # [20:04] <plinss> SimonSapin: fixed, forgot to sacrifice the goat to the RewriteRule gods…
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  321. # [20:13] <glazou> hi plinss
  322. # [20:16] <tantek> TabAtkins: any luck on an airbnb for Sydney?
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  326. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> tantek: Booking one now, super-close to the office.
  327. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, central sydney does not exactly allow for awesome houses.
  328. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> So we're instead shooting for large apartments with good location.
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  332. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> tantek: And request has been put in for https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/4041182
  333. # [21:10] * shepazu_away is now known as shepazu
  334. # [21:12] <tantek> TabAtkins: awesome. works for me.
  335. # [21:13] <tantek> aside, I'm cancelling my AB meeting attendance and staying for all of the CSSWG meeting
  336. # [21:13] <tantek> I already made it clear in the last (TPAC) AB f2f meeting that I was annoyed at AB meetings conflicting with WG meetings and that in the future I would choose WG meetings over AB meetings.
  337. # [21:14] <tantek> So instead of a crazy expensive/inconvnient red-eye from Sydney to Tokyo I'm staying in Sydney for the full CSSWG meeting
  338. # [21:14] <Florian> :( No sunny Australian summer for me this time. I'll stick to good old Norwegian snow.
  339. # [21:15] <tantek> Florian :( sorry to hear that
  340. # [21:15] <tantek> I'm hoping we can at least get you on the phone
  341. # [21:15] <Florian> Definitely planning to
  342. # [21:15] <Florian> I have no schedule conflict. Just no travelling budget.
  343. # [21:15] <tantek> great
  344. # [21:16] <Florian> Somewhere closer I'd have paid out of pocket, but Australia is pushing it.
  345. # [21:16] <Florian> Although I can't complain that the WG ends up there sometimes. Australians suffer enough every other times.
  346. # [21:16] <tantek> indeed
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  348. # [21:23] <Florian> I might end up being in Japan then though, which would be convenient in terms of time zones
  349. # [21:37] <tantek> Florian: that's ironic as the AB meeting I will be missing will be in Japan
  350. # [21:38] <tantek> Florian, may I send you to AB meeting in my place? ;)
  351. # [21:38] <tantek> (if you happen to be in Tokyo 2/11-12)
  352. # [21:39] <Florian> I might, dates are not set yet.
  353. # [21:40] <Florian> And crashing at the AB could be interesting
  354. # [21:40] <Florian> not quite an orthodox move, but hey, where's the fun otherwise
  355. # [21:41] <Florian> That said, if I can stretch a bit my schedule, I'd rather stretch it all the way to Australia, but it looks tricky.
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  381. # Session Close: Wed Jan 14 00:00:00 2015

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