/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-01-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 27 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <dbaron> FATAL ERROR: Found unmatched text macro [WCAG20]. Correct the macro, or escape it with a leading backslash.
  4. # [00:00] <dbaron> any idea what would cause that?
  5. # [00:02] <dbaron> oh, and after git pull (which I think I did previously this morning) on the bikeshed repo, it works
  6. # [00:02] <dbaron> (well, I get different errors)
  7. # [00:07] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  8. # [00:09] <dbaron> TabAtkins, so for the transitions spec, Bert's preprocessor's output is 86K, and bikeshed's output is 142K... that seems pretty significant.
  9. # [00:12] <fantasai> Part of it is increased cross-linking, part of it is just an excessive use of markup junk
  10. # [00:12] <liam> maybe we should rewrite bikeshed in client-side xslt :)
  11. # [00:12] <fantasai> NO
  12. # [00:12] * liam notes fantasai's strong support
  13. # [00:12] <fantasai> we should have less redundant markup
  14. # [00:12] <fantasai> That's fixable in the existing system
  15. # [00:12] <fantasai> e.g. <a class=property data-link-type=propdesc href=#propdef-display-outside title=display-outside>display-outside</a>
  16. # [00:13] <fantasai> there's no need for a title
  17. # [00:13] <fantasai> class=property and data-link-type=propdesc are probably redundant
  18. # [00:13] <liam> <prop>display-outside</prop> is all you need with web components, right?
  19. # [00:13] * fantasai ignores liam
  20. # [00:14] <fantasai> <dfn class=css data-dfn-for=display-outside data-dfn-type=value data-export="" id=valdef-display-outside-run-in>
  21. # [00:14] <fantasai> This one's trickier to minimize
  22. # [00:15] <fantasai> In the source the export and the dfn-for info are in the parent <dl>
  23. # [00:15] <fantasai> Bert's processor doesn't do as much cross-linking, so it doesn't need a dfn-for for anything
  24. # [00:15] <fantasai> It also doesn't generate e.g. links to css-values for each value combinator in a grammar
  25. # [00:16] <fantasai> But it does have sane indentation in the output, for the most part so maybe that cancels out :)
  26. # [00:17] * fantasai wishes bikeshed output was more readable, really
  27. # [00:18] <fantasai> it also doesn't use <code> tags where it really ought to
  28. # [00:19] <fantasai> but Tab didn't think that was worth fixing
  29. # [00:22] <dbaron> so how do I tell bikeshed that certain prose is the definition of a value, so that it wants to link ''none'' to something within this spec rather than in another spec...
  30. # [00:23] <dbaron> maybe dfn-type=value dfn-for=...
  31. # [00:24] <fantasai> I think <p>This paragraph has a definition of <dfn for=property-name>''none''</dfn> ...
  32. # [00:27] <dbaron> what if it's a keyword that goes in a function that's a value of a particular property?
  33. # [00:28] <fantasai> Hm.
  34. # [00:28] <fantasai> Try for=function() ? :)
  35. # [00:28] * fantasai doesn't know
  36. # [00:31] <dbaron> I can't get bikeshed to stop issuing the warning:
  37. # [00:31] <dbaron> WARNING: Multiple possible 'maybe' refs for 'inset'.
  38. # [00:31] <dbaron> Arbitrarily chose the one in css-backgrounds-3.
  39. # [00:31] <dbaron> If this is wrong, insert one of the following lines into a <pre class=link-defaults> block:
  40. # [00:31] <dbaron> spec:css-backgrounds-3; type:value; text:inset
  41. # [00:31] <dbaron> even if I follow its instructions (which worked for a similar warning)
  42. # [00:32] <fantasai> Oh, if you're linking e.g.
  43. # [00:32] <fantasai> ''text-shadow/none'' will do
  44. # [00:32] <fantasai> in place of ''none''
  45. # [00:34] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  46. # [00:37] <dbaron> hmmm, bikeshed still makes specs (c) 2014
  47. # [00:38] * Joins: jumland (~sid26952@public.cloak)
  48. # [00:41] <dbaron> fantasai, what's the difference between http://test.csswg.org/suites/css-transitions-1_dev/nightly-unstable/ and the same without _dev ?
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  53. # [00:53] * fantasai doesn't know
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  55. # [00:57] <astearns> http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2014/12/30/how-to-make-a-public-service-announcement-yet-again.html
  56. # [00:57] <astearns> but I'll add an issue to change the date
  57. # [01:00] <dbaron> astearns, like https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/pull/329 ?
  58. # [01:01] <astearns> ah, never mind :)
  59. # [01:03] <dbaron> I wish I could get rid of the sentence that abstract-csswg.include adds
  60. # [01:05] <dbaron> The "Status Text" metadata field in bikeshed seems to be ignored.
  61. # [01:05] <fantasai> The sentence about what CSS is?
  62. # [01:07] <fantasai> That's there so people who land on the spec from nowhere ("here, go implement this spec over there", or "search results for obscure thing that only the CSSWG has written anything about in a public, well-ranked website") are able to get some context
  63. # [01:07] <dbaron> fantasai, yes
  64. # [01:07] <fantasai> Since it's the same on all the specs, Tab autogens it
  65. # [01:07] <fantasai> You could argue that it should be removed because "everybody who looks at our specs knows what CSS is and doesn't give a shit about this sentence"
  66. # [01:08] <fantasai> but I don't actually agree on that point...
  67. # [01:08] <fantasai> Granted, the link target for /TR/CSS needs an update
  68. # [01:08] <fantasai> which unfortunately is not very high on my priority list this month
  69. # [01:09] <fantasai> However, the WG operates by consensus, so if everyone else things it's more painful than helpful
  70. # [01:09] <fantasai> then you can get it removed ^_^
  71. # [01:10] <dbaron> It's never been in the transitions spec.
  72. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Update your bikeshed. ^_^
  73. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, with what?
  74. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, also, did you see my pull request?
  75. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah, just merged it.
  76. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, should I file an issue on "Status Text" not working?
  77. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> the WCAG20 ref problem si fixed now - I pushed some better hygiene for text macros last night that was a little over-eager.
  78. # [01:13] <dbaron> (that's what I was about to do)
  79. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Yes please.
  80. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> File an issue on me to clean up all the link metadata after processing, too.
  81. # [01:14] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I'm not sure what that means...
  82. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> All the metadata lying around on links, for example, is part of the size bloat.
  83. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> And unnecessary.
  84. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> data-link-type/etc
  85. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> And I can look at the link-defaults problem. Been trying to debug some issues with it for a while, good to see some live examples.
  86. # [01:18] <dbaron> TabAtkins, the issue I was hitting is that there are multiple definitions of 'inset' in css3-background -- none of which were the one I wanted!
  87. # [01:18] <fantasai> dbaron: It's been part of the module template since I wrote it I think
  88. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, sigh.
  89. # [01:18] <dbaron> fantasai, yeah, I took it out
  90. # [01:19] <dbaron> TabAtkins, so I just used ''shadow/inset'' and left it unlinked like before
  91. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> What's the definition of inset that you want?
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  93. # [01:32] <plinss> dbaron: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css-transitions-1_dev/nightly-unstable/ is the canonical URL, without _dev is a RewriteRule because old links
  94. # [01:32] <plinss> all test suites in development phase have _dev at the end of the name
  95. # [01:33] <dbaron> plinss, k
  96. # [01:33] <fantasai> aren't all test suites always in development? :)
  97. # [01:33] <dbaron> TabAtkins, the one in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds/#shadow
  98. # [01:33] <plinss> it seems that way…
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  101. # [01:33] * fantasai supposes css-style-attr is pretty frozen at this point
  102. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ah, yeah, that's not metadata'd up properly, so Bikeshed gets pretty confused about it.
  103. # [01:34] <dbaron> TabAtkins, the spec itself is confused about it... it links to the border-style definition
  104. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> You can manually specify the link in a <pre class='anchors'> block for now. Pretty sure I've documented that.
  105. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It's still using Bert's preprocessor. Linking to the wrong version when a term appears multiple times was... distressingly common back then.
  106. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> It just links to the first instance and doesn't tell you about it.
  107. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Tons of our specs were linking wrongly, all the time.
  108. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Sorry about bikeshed getting confused about definitions on old specs. It's... not really avoidable. I could try harder to make it at least not emit errors when the problem is unavoidable, but the specs just need to be fixed.
  109. # [01:39] <dbaron> how do I mark up a dfn where the term I want it to be a link for is different from the text?
  110. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Add a title attribute.
  111. # [01:39] <dbaron> (In this case, it's a function, and it has grammar for what goes inside it in the dfn.)
  112. # [01:39] <dbaron> thanks
  113. # [01:40] <dbaron> do we prefer title="cubic-bezier" or title="cubic-bezier()" ?
  114. # [01:41] <dbaron> I think probably with the ()
  115. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> The latter.
  116. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Bikeshed'll complain about the former, if you've given it a function type.
  117. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> It requires parens in the linking text.
  118. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> <dfn function title="cubic-bezier()">...</dfn>
  119. # [01:43] <dbaron> and how do I mark up the definition of a keyword that goes in a function?
  120. # [01:43] <dbaron> e.g., the 'start' value in steps()
  121. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Same as for a property. <dfn value for="steps()">start</dfn>
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  123. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> (Feel free to add a for=whatever to anything, when appropriate. I still don't actually verify that for='' values exist or mean anything; they're solely used as a disambiguating token.)
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  125. # [01:57] <fantasai> We can bikeshed css3-background
  126. # [01:57] * fantasai wanted to republish as CR before bikeshedding, but that's been done
  127. # [01:58] <fantasai> why does the internet not work when I need to do work, but is perfectly fine when I'm just procrastinating?
  128. # [01:58] * fantasai has the worst internet service
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  133. # [02:29] <dbaron> FATAL ERROR: 'event' definitions need to specify what they're for.
  134. # [02:29] <dbaron> TabAtkins, ^
  135. # [02:29] <dbaron> I don't even know what that means
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  143. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> dbaron: They need a for='' attribute, specifying the interfaces they're fired at.
  144. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> (Comma-separated list, if multiple.)
  145. # [03:18] <dbaron> TabAtkins, so, often, for="Element" ?
  146. # [03:18] <dbaron> (for, say, transitionend)
  147. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yeah.
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  179. # [09:00] <Fn15> hi
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  246. # [18:19] <dauwhe> Just wow: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1124344
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  248. # [18:25] <liam> haha lotterspaced tabs... i noticed yesterday that next to the CSS book on my shelf is "embracing insanity" :-)
  249. # [18:27] <astearns> he really likes ellipses
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  251. # [18:33] <Florian> dauwhe: "people at bugzilla has no competence to talk about this [...] i don't think they are programmers at all." yeah, right.
  252. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> That's the kind of people I tend to mute asap :)
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  254. # [18:38] <Florian> The comment above refers to zbarsky and dbaron. If these aren't real programers, I am not sure who counts as one. But yeah, this seems to be a high quality troll.
  255. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Me, duh
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  257. # [18:44] <dauwhe> This is censorship! P.S. I am not a crank.
  258. # [18:46] <tantek> anytime people cry censorship in someone else's site - tell them go post on your own site if you're such an expert.
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  263. # [18:59] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
  264. # [19:03] * plinss_away is now known as plinss
  265. # [19:14] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  266. # [19:29] <dauwhe> It gets better: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=450720
  267. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Not touching that
  268. # [19:57] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  269. # [20:27] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  270. # [20:28] <glazou> hi
  271. # [20:29] <tantek> dauwhe if you can identify (name) a pattern for this kind of trolling, I can add it to the TrollTaxonomy.
  272. # [20:36] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  273. # [20:36] <dauwhe> tantek: I hadn't seen your taxonomy before. I will try to bikeshed a name for this :)
  274. # [20:40] <glazou> fantasai: ping
  275. # [21:10] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  276. # [21:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  277. # [21:33] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  278. # [21:41] * Joins: shepazu_ (schepers@public.cloak)
  279. # [21:43] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  280. # [21:49] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  281. # [21:49] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  282. # [21:51] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@public.cloak) ("leaving")
  283. # [21:55] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@public.cloak)
  284. # [22:24] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  285. # [22:36] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  286. # [22:50] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  287. # [23:00] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  288. # [23:11] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  289. # [23:11] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  290. # [23:18] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  291. # [23:22] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  292. # [23:31] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  293. # [23:36] * Joins: nikos (~uid28403@public.cloak)
  294. # [23:53] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
  295. # [23:53] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  296. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> plinss: I'm about to throw the switch on making Bikeshed look at the data-lt attribute (spelled just 'lt' in the source format) rather than title for alternate linking texts. I'm gonna fix all the CSS specs, but is there anything else you need to worry about?
  297. # Session Close: Wed Jan 28 00:00:00 2015

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