/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-02-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 08 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  13. # [02:18] <tantek> Greetings from outside 48
  14. # [02:18] <tantek> Inside now
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  32. # [04:53] <SimonSapin> plinss: could http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ be 301 redirects to https://drafts.csswg.org/ instead of a proxy?
  33. # [04:53] <SimonSapin> also, could http://drafts.csswg.org/ have HSTS?
  34. # [04:54] <plinss> SimonSapin: it’s possible to set up, but it’s better to keep the drafts in the w3.org URL space for persistence
  35. # [04:54] <plinss> the next option is to get css.w3.org … (which may be possible soon)
  36. # [04:55] <plinss> I can add HSTS but I need to be sure the dev.w3.org proxy is using https first
  37. # [04:55] <SimonSapin> apparently it’s hard to have HTTPS on dev.w3.org
  38. # [04:57] <plinss> yeah, the TAG has been discussing the issues with moving all of w3.org to https, too many existing links. But maybe we can get dev.w3.org moved
  39. # [04:59] <SimonSapin> Quoting: <MikeSmith> I'd rather we just quit using dev.w3.org altogether
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  41. # [05:25] <fantasai> Wait why is it a problem?
  42. # [05:25] <fantasai> Is it not possible to have http://dev.w3.org/ redirect to https://dev.w3.org?
  43. # [05:28] <plinss> yes, it can redirect, the problem is the millions of existing links to http://*.w3.org that will never get updated and will double the number of http roundtrips
  44. # [05:28] <plinss> for just dev.w3.org it shouldn’t be as big of a deal as all of w3.org
  45. # [05:29] <plinss> (if found out the other day the dev.w3.org/csswg is half the traffic of dev.w3.org)
  46. # [05:29] <plinss> s/if/I/
  47. # [05:33] <liam> with existing documents people would get stuck in redirect loops
  48. # [05:33] <liam> (it's been tried too)
  49. # [05:34] <SimonSapin> I also remember something about the hardware that runs dev.w3.org being old and dying, but I don’t see why it couldn’t be replaced
  50. # [05:34] <liam> we could have an outgoing apache filter that replaced https with https in static files but not in js so easily
  51. # [05:34] <liam> SimonSapin, given grants from Members, yes
  52. # [05:34] <liam> iirc the current hardware was supplied by HP in fact, although i might be a generation behind
  53. # [05:35] <liam> (or non-Members i suppose!)
  54. # [05:36] <SimonSapin> if it’s really a money question, I’d consider giving 10$ a month out of pocket for a Linode box
  55. # [05:37] <liam> no, not only $
  56. # [05:37] <liam> although that's kind of you :)
  57. # [05:37] <fantasai> csswg.org runs out of a linode box
  58. # [05:38] <SimonSapin> (my point was surprise that it would be a money question, given the price of servers these days)
  59. # [05:39] * fantasai wonders how google search results deals with http vs https
  60. # [05:39] <fantasai> if people link to both equally, does it prefer https or http?
  61. # [05:39] * fantasai pretty sure it doesn't treat them as independent links, that would be stupid
  62. # [05:40] <SimonSapin> http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/https-as-ranking-signal.html
  63. # [05:40] <plinss> liam: FWIW, HP recently offered to donate a rack full of servers, and was politely refused… they went into the recycling bin
  64. # [05:40] <liam> SimonSapin, no, it's not even primarily money
  65. # [05:40] <liam> plinss, :( i'd have had them! :)
  66. # [05:41] <liam> (I don't know about that, so don't know why)
  67. # [05:41] * plinss believes Google ranks https links higher
  68. # [05:41] <liam> fantasai, google has a guide on how to migrate from http to https
  69. # [05:41] <liam> they say you have to use redirects or you risk getting penalized for duplicate content
  70. # [05:42] <liam> but yes, prefer https
  71. # [05:42] <liam> (and what they say isn't necessarily the full sotry of course)
  72. # [05:42] * plinss has a rack full of old HP servers in his garage, but those are _mine_ now :-)
  73. # [05:43] * liam has a couple of HP computers here, very happy with them although one is a little on hte old side and was decommissioned
  74. # [05:43] <liam> the laptop i'm keeping going as long as possible though
  75. # [05:45] <liam> timbl did an experiment with an http header recently, the consequence of which is that anyone who read his email ended up getting blocked automatically from w3.org even if they didn't explicitly visit the test page
  76. # [05:45] <liam> (unclear if it was because browsers have a shared database, or ebcause of readahead)
  77. # [05:51] <plinss> heh, I was there. He added an HSTS header to a page, and that page redirected https to http
  78. # [05:51] <plinss> so every browser that visited the page would only visit the https url for the next year (until the hsts expired)
  79. # [05:52] <liam> yes
  80. # [05:52] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  81. # [05:55] <fantasai> liam: I think Google should just collapse the links on their own, it's silly not to
  82. # [05:55] <fantasai> liam: Theoretically one could serve different content to each, but it doesn't really make sense unless the http one is a redirect to the https :)
  83. # [06:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#custom-idents what does "positionally-ambiguous" mean compared to just "ambiguous"?
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  86. # [06:17] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I think it should say "positionally-variable values" instead of "positionally-ambiguous keywords"
  87. # [06:17] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Does that make sense? Should I make that change?
  88. # [06:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: what does that mean? :)
  89. # [06:18] <fantasai> Means if you parse
  90. # [06:18] <fantasai> keyword || <custom-ident>
  91. # [06:18] <fantasai> or
  92. # [06:18] <fantasai> keyword && <custom-ident>
  93. # [06:18] <fantasai> order is not defined in these cases
  94. # [06:19] <SimonSapin> ok
  95. # [06:19] <fantasai> Feel free to suggest a better sentence :)
  96. # [06:20] <SimonSapin> is "positionally-variable" when the order *is* significant?
  97. # [06:20] <SimonSapin> unlike keyword || <custom-ident> or keyword && <custom-ident>
  98. # [06:21] <SimonSapin> or the opposite?
  99. # [06:23] <fantasai> opposite
  100. # [06:25] <fantasai> where the values can vary in their position
  101. # [06:29] <SimonSapin> Ok. I think what’s in the ED now contradicts what I remembered we discussed.
  102. # [06:30] <fantasai> I think we discussed a lot of things
  103. # [06:31] * fantasai doesn't remember
  104. # [06:31] <fantasai> what do you think it should say?
  105. # [06:31] * fantasai doesn't think that paragraph is sufficiently clear in any case
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  117. # [08:28] <liam> fantasai, agree re. http/https, and also not sure whether that was the main google crawlaer (i think so) or the adsense one
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  125. # [09:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: In the same series: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002RI9VFI/
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  129. # [09:51] * dauwhe finally made it to Sydney!
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  162. # [13:44] <zcorpan> hello sydney
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  179. # [20:07] <franremy> small question: does anyone know when css-grid is to be discussed at the upcoming f2f? (in fact, I just wanna know if there's any chance it happens today or not)
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  184. # [21:41] <SimonSapin> franremy: if by upcoming you mean starting today, the first thing on the agenda (in ~1.5 hours) is to determine the agenda. It’ll show up here: https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015#proposed-agenda-topics
  185. # [21:48] <franremy> SimonSapin: oh, grid isn't even included in the topics; no need to hurry then
  186. # [21:54] <franremy> if someone want to add css-grid on the agenda (why not), I would like to ask to refrain from putting it up today if that's possible
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  189. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> franremy: Heh ok
  190. # [22:03] <franremy> re SimonSapin TabAtkins: thanks
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  195. # [22:33] * glazou changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css - Sydney ftf meeting https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015 (JS only logs: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/today )'
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  198. # [22:33] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/08-css-irc
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  200. # [22:33] <glazou> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
  201. # [22:33] <RRSAgent> ok, glazou; I will not start a new log at midnight
  202. # [22:34] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  203. # [22:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  211. # [22:51] * krit Did Houdini make the breakfast disappear?
  212. # [22:52] <glazou> krit: you’re cheating ; I saw you have a bkfast at the bar downstairs :-)
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  216. # [23:16] <heycam> glazou, if there is space on the agenda today or tomorrow can we talk about the Font Loading API spec (status, discuss the current spec open issues)?
  217. # [23:16] <glazou> heycam: could you please add it to the agenda on the wiki?
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  220. # [23:18] <heycam> glazou, oh, I can log into the wiki. ok :)
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  227. # [23:38] <glazou> Steve Zilles, Adobe
  228. # [23:38] <astearns> Alan Stearns, Adobe
  229. # [23:38] <gregwhitworth> Greg Whitworth, Microsoft
  230. # [23:38] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
  231. # [23:39] <cyril> Cyril Concolato, Telecom ParisTech, Observer
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  234. # [23:39] <dbaron> Shinyu Murakami, Vivliostyle
  235. # [23:39] <SteveZ> Steve Zilles
  236. # [23:39] <zcorpan> Simon Pieters, Opera Software
  237. # [23:39] <dauwhe> Dave Cramer, Hachette Livre, interested in books
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  239. # [23:39] <dino> Dean Jackson, Apple
  240. # [23:39] <Florian> Florian Rivoal, Invited Expert
  241. # [23:39] <glazou> Daniel Glazman, Disruptive Innovations, co-chair
  242. # [23:39] <AndreyR> Andrey Rybka Bloomberg
  243. # [23:40] <dbaron> David Baron, Mozilla
  244. # [23:40] <krit> Dirk Schulze, Adobe
  245. # [23:40] <johanneswilm> Johannes Wilm
  246. # [23:40] <tantek> Tantek Çelik, Mozilla
  247. # [23:40] <kwkbtr> Toru Kawakubo, Vivliostyle
  248. # [23:40] <jet> Jet Villegas, Mozilla
  249. # [23:40] <fantasai> fantasai, Invited Expert
  250. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Tab Atkins, Google
  251. # [23:40] <Rossen> Rossen Atanassov, Microsoft
  252. # [23:40] <plinss> Peter Linss, HP, co-chair
  253. # [23:40] <dbaron> Toru Kawakubo, Vivliostyle
  254. # [23:40] <heycam> Cameron McCormack, Mozilla
  255. # [23:40] <xidorn> Xidorn Quan, Mozilla
  256. # [23:40] <birtles> Brian Birtles, Mozilla
  257. # [23:40] <rbyers> Rick Byers, Google
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  259. # [23:41] <roc> Robert O'Callahan, Mozilla
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  261. # [23:41] <tantek> scribenick: tantek
  262. # [23:41] <glazou> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015#proposed-agenda-topics
  263. # [23:41] * dino Browser War Update -- Mozilla 6, Google 5, Microsoft 2, Opera 2, Apple 1
  264. # [23:41] <iank> Ian Kilpatrick, Google
  265. # [23:41] * dino feels outnumbered
  266. # [23:42] <tantek> glazou: first thing is figuring out the agenda for MT
  267. # [23:42] <tantek> W is for the FX task force
  268. # [23:42] <tantek> glazou: W is for the FX task force
  269. # [23:42] <tantek> glazou: I suggest we sort by priority
  270. # [23:43] <tantek> Dirk: what is closest to CR?
  271. # [23:43] <tantek> glazou: CSS3-UI?
  272. # [23:43] <tantek> dbaron: transitions
  273. # [23:44] <tantek> tantek: suggest prioritize things that require in-person diagrams
  274. # [23:44] <tantek> florian: maybe CSS inline
  275. # [23:44] * Joins: vollick_ (~uid66256@public.cloak)
  276. # [23:44] <tantek> dauwhe: can we do that Tuesday?
  277. # [23:45] <tantek> glazou: there were people that wanted to discuss rounded display
  278. # [23:45] <tantek> glazou: watchfaces
  279. # [23:46] <tantek> tantek: CSS3-UI box-sizing intrinsic size would be good to discuss with SVG folks on Wednesday
  280. # [23:46] <tantek> glazou: CSS3 Text and Writing modes this afternoon (Monday)
  281. # [23:46] <tantek> florian: block ellipsis and fragmentation links?
  282. # [23:47] <tantek> tantek: ok with CSS3-UI tomorrow (Tuesday)
  283. # [23:47] <tantek> fantasai: dbaron had some 2.1 issues
  284. # [23:47] <dbaron> fantasai, which issues? The margin-collapsing one I haven't even sent email about yet?
  285. # [23:47] <tantek> glazou: heycam you had font-loading issues
  286. # [23:47] <tantek> heycam: wanted to ask the questions, updates, 20 min this morning on font-loading
  287. # [23:48] <tantek> glazou: 2.1, snapshot, 2.2 first public WD
  288. # [23:48] <tantek> fantasai: 2.1 technical issues and snapshot are separate topics
  289. # [23:48] <tantek> florian: media queries? not sure my priority
  290. # [23:48] <fantasai> s/snapshot/2.1+2.2+snapshot/
  291. # [23:48] <tantek> TabAtkins: yeah
  292. # [23:49] <Florian> s/not sure my/not super high/
  293. # [23:49] <tantek> glazou: TabAtkins you wanted to discuss ...
  294. # [23:49] <tantek> TabAtkins: I need 30-45 min on ...
  295. # [23:49] <tantek> glazou: Tuesday morning for @extend (?)
  296. # [23:49] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  297. # [23:49] <tantek> s/.../@extend
  298. # [23:50] * heycam Rossen/fantasai are any of the open issues in Logical Properties ready for discussion?
  299. # [23:50] <tantek> florian: multiline block ellipsis
  300. # [23:50] <tantek> florian: preferably not this morning
  301. # [23:51] <tantek> glazou: form styling controls - tomorrow afternoon
  302. # [23:51] <tantek> glazou: something for RoC
  303. # [23:51] <tantek> glazou: :for() for this morning
  304. # [23:51] <heycam> FYI, other FX topics have been gathered by the SVG WG here: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015/Agenda_proposals
  305. # [23:51] <tantek> glazou: prev-sibling and parent combinators also this morning
  306. # [23:51] <tantek> fantasai: ::marker pseudo-element 15 min
  307. # [23:52] <tantek> glazou: dbaron margin-collapsing part of 2.1
  308. # [23:52] <tantek> glazou: tab order display switch
  309. # [23:52] <tantek> astearns: I did that, does not really need discussion
  310. # [23:53] <tantek> glazou: flex-break topics?
  311. # [23:53] <tantek> astearns: tab order put it on overflow
  312. # [23:53] <tantek> plinss: 2.1 issues ?
  313. # [23:53] <tantek> fantasai: 2.1 issues let's do that this morning
  314. # [23:53] <tantek> tantek: agreed
  315. # [23:53] <tantek> florian: text-wrap balance ?
  316. # [23:54] <tantek> fantasai: css3 text level 4? 30 min?
  317. # [23:54] <tantek> fantasai: when doesn't matter
  318. # [23:54] <tantek> glazou: let's do that today
  319. # [23:55] <tantek> glazou: what is the agenda so far?
  320. # [23:56] <tantek> (lots of quiet typing)
  321. # [23:57] <tantek> fantasai: visible control characters falls under text
  322. # [23:57] <tantek> fantasai: margin-collapsing is part of 2.1 issues
  323. # [23:57] <tantek> astearns: flex-break controls could be part of text 4 discussion
  324. # [23:58] <tantek> fantasai: text-wrap balance should also be part of text level 4
  325. # [23:58] <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
  326. # [23:58] <Zakim> sorry, tantek, I don't know what conference this is
  327. # [23:58] <Zakim> On IRC I see vollick_, murakami, roc, AndreyR, SteveZ, johanneswilm, gregwhitworth, jet, tantek, cyril, dauwhe, Florian, zcorpan, kwkbtr, dbaron, heycam, xidorn, dino, RRSAgent,
  328. # [23:58] <Zakim> ... Zakim, glazou, dwim1, hgl, antonp1, fantasai, ojan, krijnhoetmer, Rossen, shane, rbyers, dstockwell, krit, mvujovic______, ppk___, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, Rossen_, mihnea_____,
  329. # [23:58] <Zakim> ... amtiskaw, iank, abucur___, birtles, robertknight_clo, ato, renoirb, koji, cabanier, astearns, sgalineau, slightlyoff, hober, shepazu, logbot, JonathanNeal_, timeless, jumland,
  330. # [23:58] <Zakim> ... nikos
  331. # [23:58] <tantek> fantasai: css 2.2 should go with the snapshot
  332. # [23:59] <tantek> florian: can we put form controls in the overflow
  333. # [23:59] <tantek> tantek: form controls Tue PM?
  334. # Session Close: Mon Feb 09 00:00:00 2015

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