/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-02-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 20 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: adenilson_ (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  4. # [00:00] * liam asked systems team but no response so far - seems faster now though
  5. # [00:01] <gregwhitworth> liam: yes it does
  6. # [00:01] <liam> maybe dbaron's hg push killed it?
  7. # [00:01] <gregwhitworth> I think they fixed it (magical unicorns or faries)
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  9. # [00:01] <gregwhitworth> liam: That's actually what I was thinking, was curious if plinss was working on the push from git -> hg and it had some effect
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  12. # [00:02] <liam> don't know
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  27. # [01:21] <gregwhitworth> TabAtkins: If I have a question regarding the parsing and subsequent CSSOM storing of the style="" attr which specs should I target with my www-style email? CSS Syntax, CSSOM, CSS2.1? Anything else?
  28. # [01:23] <hober> gregwhitworth: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/
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  30. # [01:24] <gregwhitworth> thanks hober!!
  31. # [01:25] <hober> np
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  39. # [02:31] <plinss> dbaron: hmm, nothing looks wrong on the server side, shepherd saw your push
  40. # [02:32] <plinss> not sure why it would have hung, it’s possible if the server was running another process that held a db lock for a little while
  41. # [02:33] <plinss> TabAtkins: the old slow scripts aren’t on the server anymore (one of them was on dvcs.w3.org), pushes should be fast, most of the work happens async
  42. # [02:33] <plinss> That said, the server was under a heavy load this afternoon until 3pm pst (almost exactly) which would have been slowing things down
  43. # [02:34] <plinss> It looks like maybe the proxy at dev.w3.org is keeping some connections open for a long time (around 150 of them), and then it was rebooted at 3pm
  44. # [02:35] <liam> first thing in all my server-side scripts (Perl, sorry) is to check the system load average :)
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  46. # [02:35] <plinss> my server dropeed to 24 connections from 148 at 3pm
  47. # [02:35] <liam> which i learned to do the hard way when fromoldbooks.org got popular on google for a while
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  49. # [02:36] <liam> (and i'm not as good at monitoring it as you are)
  50. # [02:36] <plinss> the number of open connections seems to slowly creep up over time which makes me question the proxy
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  53. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that timing makes sense.
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  55. # [03:03] <gregwhitworth> does anyone know if you can attach items to an email and the archive will keep it?
  56. # [03:23] <liam> the w3c archive keeps attachments if they are not too large
  57. # [03:23] <liam> HTML-formatted email might get discarded though
  58. # [03:25] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  59. # [03:26] <gregwhitworth> what about a 954 byte HTML file that would be attached to an email?
  60. # [03:26] <gregwhitworth> liam: ^
  61. # [03:30] <liam> gregwhitworth, are you asking because it vanished?
  62. # [03:31] <gregwhitworth> liam: if a 954 byte html file attached is small enough
  63. # [03:31] <gregwhitworth> I would think so
  64. # [03:36] <liam> yes
  65. # [03:36] <liam> the default limit is 500KBytes
  66. # [03:36] <liam> I have not checked the configuration for www-styl
  67. # [03:36] <liam> e
  68. # [03:36] <liam> (don't even knw if I have the necessary access, probably though)
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  72. # [04:23] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: thanks for the reply
  73. # [04:23] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: in the spec that you linked to - it says # In user agents that support CSS, the attribute's value must be parsed when the attribute is added or has its value changed, according to the rules given for CSS styling attributes. [CSSATTR]
  74. # [04:24] <gregwhitworth> so when using setAttribute, you would expect this to be parsed as normal correct?
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  76. # [04:35] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: nevermind
  77. # [04:36] <gregwhitworth> dbaron: Thought it through some more and realized how this problem is potentially materializing through the lib we're looking into
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  88. # [08:50] <zcorpan> shouldn't UAX14 LB13 say "× SP* CL" etc instead of "× CL" ?
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  149. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> plinss: Um, I just went in and set Images 3 to be the "current version" (since it really is; Images 4 is the ideas spec atm), and it seems to have responded by deleting Images 4.
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  156. # [21:18] <plinss> TabAtkins: looking
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  159. # [21:27] <plinss> TabAtkins: fixed. When you do that, you need to make sure the “current version” is the unversioned directory in the repo (or at least another version isn’t in an unversioned dir)
  160. # [21:27] * Quits: hober (~ted@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  161. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  162. # [21:27] <plinss> the unversioned url always maps to the current version, so that’s why you couldn’t see images-4
  163. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> I couldn't see it when I went straight to css-images-4 either, though.
  164. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> And it wasn't in the directory at drafts.csswg.org/
  165. # [21:28] <plinss> yeah, because images-3 was covering the css-images dir internally, so the system didn’t see images-4
  166. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see.
  167. # [21:30] <plinss> drafts.csswg.org/css-images-4/Overview.bs was still working, but Overview.html is synthetic
  168. # [21:30] <plinss> (when it’s generated on the server)
  169. # [21:31] <plinss> btw: you’re aware most specs are failing to generate with biblio data errors?
  170. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, noticed that. Gonna see what's up and fix it.
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  173. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> plinss: Ah, did you just symlink css-images/ to css-images-3/ ?
  174. # [21:41] <plinss> no, I renamed css-images-3 to css-images (and css-images to css-images-4)
  175. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Oh. My local repo still has css-images-3. Maybe git doesn't automatically clean up when directories are deleted in the master?
  176. # [21:43] <plinss> probably… (maybe there’s a hidden file in the dir?)
  177. # [21:44] <plinss> fwiw: hg properly tracks renames and just handles it, git guess about renames (and sometimes gets it wrong)
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  180. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Okay, biblio generation fixed. Some new Index-generation code was creating more biblio links, some of which don't exist.
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  184. # [22:40] <fantasai> plinss: why?
  185. # [22:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: survey results? I can't remember what it was for, but we did a survey awhile back
  186. # [22:41] <plinss> fantasai: why what?
  187. # [22:41] <fantasai> why renaming?
  188. # [22:42] <plinss> because Tab set images-3 to the current version of images and the current version gets the unversioned url
  189. # [22:43] <fantasai> Tab should just kick me off the co-editing list since he doesn't consult me about anything wrt that spec
  190. # [22:43] <fantasai> "I rewrote the spec, don't care what you think"
  191. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Uhhhh...
  192. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> I pointed the "current version" to the actual current version of the spec, rather than the incomplete delta spec.
  193. # [22:45] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
  194. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> If you feel like you're not contributing to editing, sure, I can remove you.
  195. # [22:47] <fantasai> I was a contributor to L3, but since you folded in half of L4 into the editor's draft, I can't consider myself a contributor to that.
  196. # [22:47] * fantasai disagrees with the addition
  197. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Those are the stable parts. L3 wasn't going past CR, so having parts of L4 be stable enough for CR was ridiculous.
  198. # [22:48] * fantasai thinks L3, being in CR, should have features removed, not added
  199. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Folding in the stable bits just makes sense - it keeps us with a "stable" level and an "experimental" level.
  200. # [22:49] <fantasai> Then we shouldn't have levels, we should have
  201. # [22:49] <fantasai> Stable Spec
  202. # [22:49] <fantasai> and Unstable Spec
  203. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> That is what we have.
  204. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> In practice.
  205. # [22:49] <fantasai> No, it's not.
  206. # [22:49] <fantasai> It's what you want us to have
  207. # [22:49] <fantasai> Which is fine, but I wouldn't call them levels then
  208. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> I mean, you can say we don't. But it's the reality. That's how we actually manage our levels.
  209. # [22:49] <fantasai> I'd call them Unstable Spec and Stable Spec
  210. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> Why would we have different versions of a spec?
  211. # [22:50] <fantasai> That is how you're managing Images L3, it's not how we've managed. e.g. Selectors
  212. # [22:50] <fantasai> or anything else
  213. # [22:51] <fantasai> So, basically, since you and I disagree, and you don't care about my opinion and you want to go ahead and just do whatever you want with the spec, you should ask the WG to remove me as editor.
  214. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Selectors has level 3 in Rec. It's past the CR stage, and is effectively frozen.
  215. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Images 3 is not. It's in CR. It even contains some unstable things that we should really kick, but haven't because we want browsers to implement them.
  216. # [22:52] * plinss is concerned that images 3 has been in CR for nearly _3 years_ without an update on /TR
  217. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Having two levels that both have CR-level features is ridiculous.
  218. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> plinss: Yeah, it's time to republish the current WD, except I really want to punt some unimplemented bits to L4. :/
  219. # [22:52] <fantasai> Tab, you told me you rewrote a large chunk of the normative text
  220. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> image() is, unfortunately, not a CR-level feature.
  221. # [22:53] <fantasai> I have no idea what you changed
  222. # [22:53] <fantasai> That's fine, we can push it down to L4.
  223. # [22:53] <plinss> we really should be working on getting images-3 to PR ASAP
  224. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> I did rewrite quite a bit, yeah.
  225. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> plinss: Agreed, but I have enough on my plate already without also writing tests for my specs. :(
  226. # [22:53] <fantasai> Right, and I don't think that's okay for a spec that's supposed to be stable. Nobody's reviewed your changes
  227. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That rewrite was years ago. *I* don't remember what all I changed anymore. If anyone wants to review, it'll have to be fresh.
  228. # [22:54] <fantasai> plinss: I don't think taking Tab's version of it is a good way to get there. I think we need to trim down the L3 feature set, fix anything that's brken that Tab *fixed* (if any of those changes were actual fixes), and then push that up
  229. # [22:55] <fantasai> What he's got should then be published as L4
  230. # [22:55] <fantasai> That's my opinion, anyway
  231. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> And I completely disagree. :/ Trimming the previous L3 feature set just means that implemented and stable features like image-set() won't be in it. That doesn't help anyone.
  232. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> And it'll result in a CR-level L3 and a CR-level L4 (or a mix of CR and unstable things in L4, depending on if we punt to L5 or not).
  233. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Which is *silly*. We should have the spec we're happy with, full of the stable features that should be implemented as-is or are already implemented. That should get tested and move to PR asap, yes, but until it does, if anything else matures, it should slot into that.
  234. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> The spec isn't being held back because things are getting pulled into it, it's held back because no one has written basically *any* tests.
  235. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> I'd think different if we had most of the spec covered, and my additions were the uncovered parts holding it back.
  236. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> But they're not, so I don't. As long as the entire thing is untested and not remotely ready to advance *past* CR, it should contain the things that are *at* CR-level (stable).
  237. # [22:58] <plinss> Shepherd lists 196 tests for images-3, I just added it to the test suite build, will show up tomorrow
  238. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Cool, I'll have to review to see what's actually tested.
  239. # [22:59] <plinss> looks like mostly ‘object-fit’ tests from mozilla
  240. # [22:59] <plinss> but it’s a start
  241. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  242. # [23:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Does Blink have any gradient tests?
  243. # [23:00] <fantasai> That's most of the new stuff right there.
  244. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Almost certainly.
  245. # [23:00] <fantasai> Can they be submitted?
  246. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> They have to be completely rewritten to our harness.
  247. # [23:00] <plinss> ?
  248. # [23:00] <plinss> just add spec links
  249. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> They're Blink LayoutTests.
  250. # [23:00] <fantasai> Or is Blink's testing policy to write tests that only they can use, so they can use "but we'd have to convert it" as an excuse for not contributing :)
  251. # [23:01] * TabAtkins doesn't have a Blink checkout right now, so doesn't know what they look like exactly; going off of memory.
  252. # [23:01] <fantasai> I thought LayoutTests were based off a debug dump of some kind? They can test rendering as well?
  253. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> "LayoutTests" are just a name for most of our browser tests. It's a terrible folder name from way back.
  254. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Some are text-based, some are image-based.
  255. # [23:02] <fantasai> ah
  256. # [23:03] * fantasai wonders if gradients can be tested via comparison to images
  257. # [23:03] <fantasai> Do we specify the rate of change?
  258. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  259. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Very precisely.
  260. # [23:03] <SimonSapin> it’s hard to test the actual rendering of gradients without risking false negatives whenever a detail of rounding or something changes
  261. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> (Though you need to account for some wiggle room just because gradient libraries might not interpolate exactly mathematically precisely.)
  262. # [23:04] <fantasai> that might be difficult to check via reftest, then.
  263. # [23:04] <fantasai> :/
  264. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> gecko’s gradient tests are mostly comparing that two gradients with different syntax render the same, and not blank
  265. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> for example
  266. # [23:05] <fantasai> yeah, a lot of it is geometry checks
  267. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> fuzzy reftests help, but only to a point
  268. # [23:05] <fantasai> dbaron's test for blur-radius was pretty awesome
  269. # [23:05] <fantasai> but it's a manual test
  270. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: for shadows?
  271. # [23:05] <fantasai> yeah
  272. # [23:06] <fantasai> might have to have a handful of manual tests
  273. # [23:06] <fantasai> and then reftests running off the assumption that those worked
  274. # [23:06] <astearns> TabAtkins: IMO most new image/text-dump tests in Blink (and WebKit) should be reftests when possible - our contributions prioritized that
  275. # [23:07] <fantasai> astearns: my impression from random commentary over the years is that only Adobe operates that way...
  276. # [23:07] * fantasai would be happy if that's no longer true
  277. # [23:07] <astearns> fantasai: we tried to socialize it a bit, got some converts :)
  278. # [23:08] <fantasai> :)
  279. # [23:11] * fantasai doesn't understand how anyone can keep up with 200 twitter accounts, can't even manage < 50
  280. # [23:11] <fantasai> granted, I think half of my twitterstream is Tab.
  281. # [23:12] <fantasai> Mostly these days, I feel like I can't keep up with /anything/... :/
  282. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm probably half of a few people's streams...
  283. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Re: naming, looks like an even 18/20 split between ::content and ::projected. Only three votes for ::light-content.
  284. # [23:36] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  285. # [23:42] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  286. # [23:52] <hober> where's the voting happening?
  287. # [23:56] * Quits: rego (~smuxi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  288. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> A page on fantasai's site that we tweeted out some time ago.
  289. # [23:58] * Joins: rego (~smuxi@public.cloak)
  290. # [23:58] <fantasai> hober: https://twitter.com/csswg/status/545322188606152704
  291. # [23:59] <fantasai> (It hooks into a google docs survey; we wanted more control over the questionnaire formatting.)
  292. # Session Close: Sat Feb 21 00:00:00 2015

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