/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-03-11 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 11 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [02:03] * plinss changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-03-11 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0162.html'
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# [16:18] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-css-irc
# [16:18] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [16:18] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
# [16:18] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [16:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [16:55] <Zakim> +dael
# [16:56] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [16:57] <dael> plinss: Could you hear me? I'm not sure if I fixed the problem from last week.
# [16:57] <Zakim> +sanja
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# [16:58] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [16:58] <Zakim> +astearns
# [16:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [16:58] <Zakim> +??P61
# [16:58] <bcampbell> IPCaller is me
# [16:59] <glazou> Zakim, ??P61 is me
# [16:59] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [16:59] <Zakim> +Florian
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# [17:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:01] <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aaaa - is perhaps Caroline?
# [17:01] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [17:01] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
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# [17:01] <SimonSapin> zakim is hanging up on me
# [17:02] <Zakim> +smfr
# [17:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:02] * Bert zakim, caroline? is me
# [17:02] * Zakim +Bert; got it
# [17:02] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [17:02] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [17:02] <Zakim> +??P30
# [17:02] <Zakim> +??P34
# [17:02] <Zakim> +??P31
# [17:02] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P30 is me
# [17:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:02] <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P34 is me
# [17:02] <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
# [17:02] <zcorpan> zakim, ??P31 is me
# [17:02] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [17:02] <zcorpan> zakim, mute me
# [17:03] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
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# [17:03] <dauwhe> Zakim, mute me
# [17:03] <Zakim> dauwhe should now be muted
# [17:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [17:03] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [17:03] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:03] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gregwhitworth (19%), SimonSapin (4%), glazou (4%), Florian (9%), fantasai (4%)
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# [17:03] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:03] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gregwhitworth (8%), SimonSapin (74%), glazou (12%)
# [17:03] * dbaron Zakim, mute SimonSapin
# [17:03] * Zakim SimonSapin should now be muted
# [17:04] <Zakim> +BradK
# [17:04] <SimonSapin> I’m muted locally
# [17:04] <gregwhitworth> I'm muted
# [17:04] <gregwhitworth> not sure how I'm making noise
# [17:04] <Zakim> +??P5
# [17:04] * glazou gregwhitworth, Microsoft is always making noise even doing nothing ;-)
# [17:04] <murakami> zakim, ??P5 is me
# [17:04] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
# [17:04] <gregwhitworth> :)
# [17:04] * dauwhe I had this issue on annotations call. Muted locally but noisy. Phone lines?
# [17:05] <SimonSapin> dauwhe, I’m using SIP
# [17:05] <dael> plinss: Let's get started.
# [17:05] <dael> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
# [17:05] <dael> [silence]
# [17:05] <dael> Topic: behavior of MouseEvent.offsetX/Y
# [17:05] <dael> plinss: Anyone on that can talk about this one?
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# [17:06] <dael> plinss: That sounds like a no
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# [17:06] <dael> Topic: unrestricted double on ScrollToOptions
# [17:06] <dael> plinss: I guess that's zcorpan
# [17:06] <zcorpan> zakim, unmute me
# [17:06] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [17:06] <Zakim> +??P27
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zaki, mute me
# [17:06] <zcorpan> i'm trying to speak :-(
# [17:07] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [17:07] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
# [17:07] <BradK> Local muting?
# [17:07] <smfr> Zakim, unmute zcorpan
# [17:07] <Zakim> zcorpan was not muted, smfr
# [17:07] <ChrisL> zakim, ??P27 is me
# [17:07] <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
# [17:07] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [17:07] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [17:07] * ChrisL traffic noise
# [17:07] <dael> Topic: add property value to allow scrolling without scrollbar
# [17:07] <zcorpan> ok i don't know why it's not working
# [17:07] <dael> plinss: We'll come back if you can sort out sound zcorpan
# [17:07] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [17:08] <dael> Florian: There was a request on the ML to add a prop to let authors decide if scollbars are visable, invisiable or autohide.
# [17:08] <zcorpan> ok i left so me and SimonSapin were mixed up
# [17:08] * SimonSapin wat, I’m still on
# [17:08] <dael> Florian: This isn't about changing behavior. There's alreadya propriaty version of this from MS that's recycling overflow styling that we dropped
# [17:08] <dbaron> Zakim, zcorpan is SimonSapin
# [17:08] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:08] <dael> Florian: If we want to do this, they prob have the right behaviour, though we might want to rename. scrollbar: visable etc is more reasonable.
# [17:09] <Zakim> +??P30
# [17:09] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P30 is zcorpan
# [17:09] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [17:09] <zcorpan> zakim, ??P30 is me
# [17:09] <Zakim> I already had ??P30 as zcorpan, zcorpan
# [17:09] <dbaron> Zakim, mute zcorpan
# [17:09] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [17:09] <dael> Florian: The question is if we should do it. If you're thinking in an app context you might want this. but how scrollbars behave seems more platform level.
# [17:09] <dael> Florian: So what does the group think?
# [17:09] <dael> Rossen: I missed the last sentences from echo. Can your repeat?
# [17:10] <dbaron> s/overflow styling/overflow-style/
# [17:10] <dael> Florian: If you're doing native control and you don't want native scrollbars to show b/c you're providing a different UI it seems reasonable to ask for scrollbars to be hidden or something like that. It makes some ammount of sense.
# [17:10] <Bert> q+ to say that auto-hiding seems more an OS feature. And you can swipe already, whatever the value of 'overflow'
# [17:10] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [17:10] <dael> Florian: If we're going to make it work, the way MS has is reasonable, but should we provide that control for authors?
# [17:11] <dael> smfr: Some people choose to use legacy scroll bars, but we feel the user should be in control of the scrollbars
# [17:11] <dael> Florian: So MS obviously feels differently.
# [17:11] <dael> smfr: We want users to control scollbars, not authors.
# [17:12] <dael> Rossen: Right. Um. In our case when the feature was developed and spec'ed internally we looked at various app scenarios between small and larger form factors.
# [17:12] <dael> Rossen: In a lot of cases where you use mouse or high fidelity precision, having the scrollbar makes sense. When you use touch and larger cornor devices, scrollbars are kinda inadiquate.
# [17:12] <dael> Rossen: So that's where the discussion began internally.
# [17:13] <dael> Florian: If that's the morivation, why isn't the UA that switches instead of authors controlling?
# [17:13] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:13] * Zakim heard SimonSapin attempt to identify unsuccessfully
# [17:13] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SimonSapin (4%)
# [17:13] <dael> Rossen: Some of the reasons are people are picky about layouts. When scrollbars are visable they take space. When people want to account for that space when they create tight layouts.
# [17:13] <dael> Rossen: Just like when we're letting authors control padding, scrollbars are in the same relm.
# [17:14] <dael> plinss: bert?
# [17:14] <dael> Bert: I agree with smfr. It should be associated witht he enviroment a user is working in. I agree on a small screen you don't want scrollbars, but on my laptop I'd rather seem them.
# [17:15] <dael> Bert: If it works that way in one program, it should workt hat way in browsers. Doesn't mean you always have to sue the scrollbars for scrolling. You can always swipe even if they're showing. arrows, mouse wheel, all those aren't exclused.
# [17:15] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [17:15] <dael> Florian: And where we have apps where people want control, using overflow: hidden and working your way through is prob the right way to do it
# [17:15] <dael> plinss: Other opinions?
# [17:15] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aabb
# [17:15] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing people in favor except for MS.
# [17:16] <dael> Florian: Rossen do you want to add this, or are you happy about us not adding this to platform?
# [17:16] <dael> Rossen: I won't force anyone. This is a currently propriatary feature that is being used sucessfully on our platform so we won't stop even if you don't add it. But if it doesn't make sense to further extend it, that's prob okay.
# [17:17] <dael> Florian: And bikeshedding aside if we'll have it you've got it right, but I sympathize that it's user level.
# [17:17] <dael> RESOLVED: Don't add a property to hide scrollbars at this time
# [17:17] <dael> Topic: pre-wrap and whitespace
# [17:18] <Florian> http://jsbin.com/jiduc/1/edit?html,css,output
# [17:18] <dael> Florian: There's a thread here. The thing is we don't have interop on pre-wrap which has been the question on how should it behave. If you look into it, the spec approach isn't obviously the right one.
# [17:18] <dael> Florian: The way FF and IE do this is what the spec says.
# [17:18] * Rossen I will have to leave the call earlier due to planned fire drill (ETA 9:45am PST) :)
# [17:18] <dael> Florian: When you have more than one writespace when there's pre-wrap it's turned into a run and prevents them from collapsing, but it also won't wrap
# [17:19] <dael> Florian: Chrome and Safari do it differently. If you have a run it just gets completed at the end of the line.
# [17:19] <dael> Florian: That's not what the spec says, but it happens that that behavior is a match for wordprocessors
# [17:19] <dael> Florian: So I'd like to hear a bit from people from Chrome or Safari if they can confirm that this is an intentional match.
# [17:19] <dbaron> Is the thing with spaces going past the end of the line specific to pre-wrap, or just a lot easier to see with it?
# [17:20] <dael> fantasai: It is intentional. This came up earlier in text cycle and there's a prevision to allow this.
# [17:20] <dael> Florian: I missed that. Where is this allowed?
# [17:20] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#white-space-phase-2
# [17:20] <fantasai> item #4
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# [17:20] <Zakim> +??P33
# [17:20] <dael> Florian: Okay.
# [17:20] * Joins: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [17:20] <dael> Florian: So both behaviors are allowed.
# [17:21] <Bert> q+ to say I indeed have editors that do not show a scrollbar for extra spaces at the end, but I do find it confusing...
# [17:21] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [17:21] <dael> Florian: But I'mnot sure either behavior is exactly what authors want. The Chrome behavior varient, you want things to behave like a text editor where spaces don't collapse, but they do wrap. That's not exactly something you can get.
# [17:21] <Florian> http://jsbin.com/bokato/1/edit?html,css,output
# [17:22] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:22] <dael> Florian: You can approximate, but it's not quite the same. If you look at the linka nd try to insert a space before the first letter, second line what happens is in line with the spec, but not what you would expect from a text editor
# [17:22] <dael> Florian: It's nice that the spec allows both, but we have two non inter-op behaviors and neither behavior allows you to do what you would do in a plain text editor.
# [17:23] <dael> Florian: Do we want to try and reopen this and get both interop, or are we happy?
# [17:23] <dael> fantasai: There's 3 behaviors, one is don't wrap and don't collapse, I don't understand why that would be what you want.
# [17:23] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <dael> fantasai: Where you overflow with spaces, it seems no one would want that.
# [17:23] <dael> Florian: That's the one FF does, right?
# [17:23] <MaRakow> zakim, aabb is me
# [17:23] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [17:23] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [17:23] <dael> fantasai: We inherited that from Unicode.
# [17:24] <Rossen> http://jsfiddle.net/py1s28je
# [17:24] <dael> Florian: What's nice on this one from Chrome, if you add a lot of spaces there's no magic where the caret doesn't move until you add something that isn't a space. Other then that I agree it's not very desireable
# [17:24] <Zakim> -??P33
# [17:25] <dael> fantasai: I'd be okay with allowing spaces to wrap. That seems sensible and straightforward. I'm not sure if we can make that change. We'd have to see what the other impl thinka bout that since it would be a pain. As far as the collapsing, it would be good to hear if people want to impl that. We could have 2 keywords. The main downside of the collapsing is if you have a caret and it's not moving. I'd want it to keep moving so you can see what you're typing
# [17:25] <dael> fantasai: but not render that way.
# [17:25] <fantasai> s/pain/change/
# [17:26] <dael> Florian: There's some thing inbetween as well. If you had something just like the FF behavior where you overflow at the end of the line. YOu could hide it with overflow: hidden to get something like the Chrome. But one thing that's nice about Chrome, if you have a word, one space, another word, a lot of spaces and hte lot of spaces don't fit, the second word doesn't go onto the second line.
# [17:27] <dael> Florian: If we can keep the two words on the same line you would end up with behavior that's interesting. If you had a switch somewhere to control.
# [17:27] <dael> Florian: I think it's a bit too subtile to define who wants what. I'm just wondering if there's room to try and define something better.
# [17:27] <smfr> q+
# [17:27] * Zakim sees Bert, smfr on the speaker queue
# [17:27] <dael> Rossen: I pasted a jsfiddle. What would be your expected behavior in that one? Chrome or FF?
# [17:27] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:28] <dael> fantasai: Whitespace pre means don't wrap the line. We're talking about pre wrap. Same with no wrap.
# [17:28] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [17:28] <fantasai> s/pre wrap/pre-wrap/
# [17:28] <dael> Rossen: Okay. I think I misread your ex. Sorry.
# [17:28] <dael> Florian: For interest to impl, Bloomburg has been playing with this. They have an extra value that wraps the spaces.
# [17:29] <dael> smfr: So Florian in your fiddle you have a span in the div. It's changing behavior. If you remove it it changes Chrome and Safari
# [17:29] <dael> Florian: Which?
# [17:29] <smfr> http://jsbin.com/bokato/1/edit?html,css,output
# [17:29] <smfr> q-
# [17:29] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <dael> smfr: Your single line one. This one.
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# [17:29] <dael> Florian: Okay. If you remove the span it changes? Um...no, it does not change? I don't see any difference in Chrome. What difference did you see?
# [17:30] <dael> smfr: Okay. Now I'm not seeing it. I don't know why.
# [17:30] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [17:31] <dael> Florian: There are a number of oddities. With Chrome if you keep adding spaces, you don't see it until you put something after the space. And I don't think you can opt into the other behavior. The FF one causes long overflow and adding word-break gives you an approx, but it is worse than the real thing
# [17:31] <dael> Florian: Again, I think we can't do exact spec on this call, but is there interest for impl to do this or accept patches, or are we stuck with the current?
# [17:31] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:31] <dael> Bert: I think I agree with all Florian examples. I have different editors that do different things.
# [17:32] <dael> Bert: They are confusing. I have several programs that do things differently. Some show the spaces, somet hat don't and those that don't I find more confusing, though spaces at the end are always confusing. So I would prefer to make the spaces as visable as possible.
# [17:32] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [17:33] <dael> Bert: I'm not sure we...we need to spell it out completely. We put in the spec, in the published draft, that both are allowed.
# [17:33] <dael> Florian: The spec does allow both, but neither is what I think we want for a behavior
# [17:33] <Zakim> +??P34
# [17:33] <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P34 is me
# [17:33] <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
# [17:33] <dael> Florian: I think authors may want to switch between two behaviors, but those aren't the two the spec allows and you can't switch as an author.
# [17:33] <dael> Bert: Then I'm not sure I understand.
# [17:33] <Florian> http://jsbin.com/bokato/1/edit?html,css,output
# [17:34] <dael> Florian: If you open this in FF or IE and you try to insert a space at the beginning of the 2nd line, what you prob want is for the second line to indent one space. That's not what happens.
# [17:34] <dael> gregwhitworth: That's not what happens in IE
# [17:35] <dael> gregwhitworth: Are you saying because the 'world' bumps to the second line?
# [17:35] <dael> Florian: Correct
# [17:35] <dael> gregwhitworth: Then IE does the same.
# [17:35] <dael> Florian: So this is allowed y the spec, but I don't think this is something people want.
# [17:35] <dael> Rossen: You're saying that word doesn't do that?
# [17:36] <dael> Florian: Word doesn't. There is no character return. If you keep adding spaces they disappear off the right end of the first line. That's what Chrome does. If you open that example in Chrome it does what word does.
# [17:36] <dael> Rossen: I'm looking at Word 2013 and it's not the same behavior.
# [17:36] <dael> Florian: did you do hello space world lots of space and then more text?
# [17:36] <dael> Rossen: Yes.
# [17:36] <dael> Florian: And if you add more space it disappears at the end of the first line.
# [17:36] <dael> Rossen: Yes.
# [17:36] * glazou when florian says space-space-space-space-space I think he missed an opportunity has a music instrument for daft punk
# [17:36] <dael> Florian: Whichis what chrome does.
# [17:37] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [17:37] <dael> Florian: And is arguably confusing. You have a million spaces for the caret and you don't know where until you add something else and discover how far you were.
# [17:37] <dael> Florian: In that case wrapping after world makes more sense, but it's saner to have things overflow to the right instead of disappear. If you want disapper there's overflow: x-hidden
# [17:38] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure I want a resolution, I want to hear if trying to explore what the deirable behaviors may be and then try and spec, is that something we want to try and do?
# [17:38] <dael> smfr: Safari matches a text editor I tried, BBedit.
# [17:38] <dael> Florian: I think Chrome matches general word processors.
# [17:39] <dael> smfr: I don't think Word is the final word on text editors.
# [17:39] <dael> smfr: There's a difference between plain text and rich text.
# [17:39] <dael> Florian: Yes. Chrome and safari can't get the plain text.
# [17:39] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [17:39] <dael> smfr: I jsut tested DBEdit and Text Edit and they have the Safari bheavior.
# [17:39] <dael> Florian: In plain text it doesn't.
# [17:39] <Zakim> +??P30
# [17:39] <zcorpan> zakim, mute ??P30
# [17:39] <Zakim> ??P30 should now be muted
# [17:40] <dael> smfr: That's not what I'm seeing. It never wraps world and the spaces just pile up.
# [17:40] * dauwhe BBEdit's official motto is "It doesn’t suck.®"
# [17:40] <zcorpan> zakim, ??P30 is me
# [17:40] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [17:40] <dael> Florian: Let me check.
# [17:40] <dael> Rossen: are you sure you don't see the same thing in word where the spaces are piling up?
# [17:40] <BradK> Mail.app on Mac also matches BBEdit and Safari
# [17:40] <dael> Florian: smfr your'e right, I was confused about text edit. I found some other ways where it didn't match Safari, there seemed to be different subtilties.
# [17:41] <dael> Florian: Rossen when it comes to word I think if you add spaces at the end of the first line it's different then adding at the beginning of the second.
# [17:41] <dael> plinss: We've spent a lot of time. The question I heard is do we want ot explore changing this. I'm not sure anyone has answered that.
# [17:41] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:41] <sanja> Zakim, mute me.
# [17:41] <Zakim> sanja should now be muted
# [17:41] <BradK> Adding spaces to beginning of second line or end of first line is the same on Mac.
# [17:42] <dael> Florian: And why this came up initially was Bloomberg in their Chromium fork has added something to have the same behavior as the sublime text editor. Bloomberg is interested in getting something that isn't what's on the web. Do we want to figure out what the ideal is and how we get there?
# [17:42] <dael> smfr: I jsut tried sublime text and it's got wierd behavior.
# [17:42] <dael> Florian: Then that's not exactly what we want.
# [17:43] <dael> smfr: I don't think Safari is interested in changing. If you want to add maybe.
# [17:43] <Bert> (I like Emacs (spaces not collapsed) rather than kedit (spaces beyond window edge appear to have zero width).)
# [17:44] <dael> Florian: If you look up HTML editing spec, if whitespace is normal it has a complex thing about inserting non-breaking and regular spaces so you get spaces that don't collapse. This then says it's insane and authors should just go into pre-wrap. Which indicates that the author assumes you'd get a different behavior then you get.
# [17:44] <dael> Rossen: How much does this matter? I think there's deminishing returns. Most editing on the web are custom and don't rely on underlying platforms. All your e-mail, social, etc. none of them rely on the underlying platform. This is from the 80s and not that improtant now days.
# [17:45] <dael> Florian: Maybe one reason they don't rely on it is because it doesn't do what they want.
# [17:45] <dael> Rossen: There's no reason for them to come back. All their underlying scenarios are so different.
# [17:45] <dael> Rossen: I guess I'm with smfr . If you want to add something prob but I have a hard time imaginging us changing from the current.
# [17:45] <dael> Florian: Neither changing nor adding?
# [17:45] <dael> Rossen: When you're adding, it's easy to not add.
# [17:46] <dael> Florian: But adding something that won't be impl isn't useful.
# [17:46] <dael> Rossen: I think that's what smfr said and I'm seconding that.
# [17:46] <dael> Florian: Even though current isn't what we really want?
# [17:46] <dael> Rossen: People who care about the consistancy of their editing behavior moved on 15 years ago.
# [17:46] <dael> plinss: Okay. Anyone in favor of changing the existing spec behavior?
# [17:46] <dael> [silence]
# [17:47] <dael> plinss: That's a no. Florian if you want to explore a prop to fine tune on the ML that's fine.
# [17:47] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [17:47] <dael> fantasai: I think it would be a new value. I think it is a problem that we don't have interop. I think we can explore that in the next level.
# [17:47] <dael> Florian: Okay. I don't care about what level. That we don't have interop isn't great.
# [17:47] <Florian> http://jsbin.com/jiduc/1/edit?html,css,output
# [17:47] <dael> fantasai: But IE and Apple don't agree on how the behaves.
# [17:48] <dael> Florian: And if you look at the link, you get very different things.
# [17:48] <dael> Topic: not underlining trailing spaces
# [17:49] <dael> Florian: If you do whitespace pre-wrap and you have a line with a few spaces at the end. It doesn't matter about how they wrap, but you have non-collapsed spaces and then you continue and underline. Currently the underline will also underline the spaces. This isn't what Word does and it's prettier.
# [17:49] <dael> Florian: I don't think we can change what we have, but adding a value saying that trailing spaces do not get underlined sounds useful.
# [17:50] <dael> Rossen: I can agree on that.
# [17:50] <dael> smfr: Us too.
# [17:50] <dael> fantasai: I think this goes back to the issue of are you dealing with code where you care about number of spaces or is it not cade where you want pretty.
# [17:51] <dael> fantasai: I know that Chrome and Safari about collapsing spaces is optimized for let's make this pretty. That does indicate to trim underlining. So if we create where spaces wrap and are visable we should underline them.
# [17:51] <dael> Florian: BUt in this case there is no difference because we don't get into a case about wrapping. I'd be okay with people who wrap spaces like Chrome to not underline. This feels like something you should be able to control at the author level.
# [17:51] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [17:52] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:52] <dael> Florian: Weither you're in pretty or code mode depends on browser. So having this as an author level control instead of a spec allowance would make sense to me.
# [17:52] <dael> plinss: I'm hearing people in favor
# [17:53] <dael> Florian: I'm suggesting an additional value to text-underline-skip with an extra value of trailing-spaces
# [17:53] <dael> plinss: Obj?
# [17:53] <dael> RESOLVED: Add the trailing-spaces value to text-decoration-skip
# [17:53] <dael> Topic: word-break for Korean
# [17:54] <dael> Florian: There's two different behaviors that are valid for Korean. The normal line-breaking applies after every syl. You can switch, but it switches for every language. If you tag you lang you can use a ko lang selector and tha'ts fine. BUt where users can type, you don't know what they'll enter.
# [17:55] <dael> Florian: Bikeshedding aside, if we add to word-break that does the same as normal for everything unless there's a hangul symbol, that allows you to get keep-all when you're next to hangul.
# [17:56] <dael> Florian: Someone mentioned on thelist that it's not true that both behaviors are equal. That the one for normal is what's commonly wanted so it might not be worth supporting. I don't know personally, I just know the Korean Language doc indicates that both exist.
# [17:57] <dael> fantasai: I don't think this is worth adding. We've heard that Korean people are okay with how it exists and the default of breaking everywhere is fine. This is a specialized case that doesn't seem particularly necessary. I don't think the benefit is worht he cost of impl time, testing time, etc.
# [17:57] <dael> Florian: You're saying it might be right, but not worth the cost?
# [17:58] <dael> fantasai: I don't think it's even correct, necessarily. Whomever is using a mixed language should just get the default behavior which is perfectly fine for Korean which the Korean people think is perfectly fine instead of doing this other behavior that you can only do if you know what hte content is.
# [17:58] <fantasai> s/etc/complication to the language, etc./
# [17:58] <dael> Florian: I think this can be worked around if you really want this.
# [17:58] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:59] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [17:59] <dael> fantasai: If you want lang detection to find out if a paragraph is Korean you can do that. I don't think this needs to be automatic. It's a heuristic and not necessarily a needed heuristic.
# [17:59] <dael> fantasai: If you really want to do this, you can do it in JS. THe Koreans aren't asking for it and it doesn't seem to be needed for the use case of is this being done correctly.
# [17:59] <zcorpan> i will have to leave now. as for the "unrestricted double in ScrollToOptions" topic, that issue is resolved already so i think doesn't need further discussion. https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0048.html
# [17:59] <dael> plinss: So that's a vote for no change. Any objections?
# [17:59] <dael> plinss: I'll take that as no change.
# [18:00] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:00] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:00] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:00] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:00] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:00] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:00] <dael> plinss: That's the top of the hour. Thanks everyone and we'll talk next week.
# [18:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [18:00] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:00] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:00] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:00] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:00] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [18:00] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:00] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:00] <Zakim> -sanja
# [18:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:00] <Zakim> -murakami
# [18:00] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:00] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:00] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:00] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:00] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
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# [18:00] <Florian> fantasai: I think your point about wanting this for hanja as well as for hangul if you're going to do it at all seals the deal for me.
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# [18:05] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [18:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:05] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, plinss, sanja, astearns, [IPcaller], glazou, Florian, dbaron, dauwhe, +33.4.92.38.aaaa, gregwhitworth, smfr, Bert, Rossen, SimonSapin, kwkbtr, SteveZ,
# [18:05] <Zakim> ... fantasai, BradK, murakami, ChrisL, zcorpan, +1.206.992.aabb, MaRakow, [Bloomberg]
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 12 00:00:00 2015

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