/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-03-18 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [02:25] <birtles> well that raises the bar for proposals to www-style just a little: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssiQYof5YLQ
# [02:28] <birtles> the change of camera angles at 1:18 is classic
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# [02:48] * liam exploring a book, "Fraktur mon Amour, 700 pages of blackletter fons (2-page spread for each)
# [02:51] <liam> birtles, perforated bovine!
# [02:52] <birtles> liam: oh I haven't actually watched it--just marvelled at the production :) what time is that?
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# [15:58] <TabAtkins> glazou: I'll be on the call today, but probably a few minutes late.
# [15:58] <glazou> TabAtkins: np, thanks for letting me know
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# [16:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-css-irc
# [16:16] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [16:16] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 48 minutes
# [16:16] <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
# [16:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [16:17] * glazou changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-03-18 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0285.html'
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# [16:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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# [17:00] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
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# [17:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
# [17:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:02] <adenilson> Zakim, ?P53 is me.
# [17:02] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named '?P53'
# [17:02] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P53 is me.
# [17:02] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
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# [17:03] <bkardell_> I'll be IRC only today :(
# [17:03] <bcampbell> IPCaller is me
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# [17:04] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [17:04] <glazou> bkardell_: ok
# [17:04] <sanja> Zakim, mute me.
# [17:04] <Zakim> sanja should now be muted
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# [17:04] <vollick> zakim, ??P56 is me
# [17:04] <Zakim> +vollick; got it
# [17:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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# [17:05] <tgraham> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
# [17:05] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
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# [17:05] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:05] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [17:05] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [17:05] <dauwhe> Zakim, mute me
# [17:05] <Zakim> dauwhe should now be muted
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# [17:05] <alex_antennahouse> I'm ipcaller.a
# [17:06] <dbaron> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is alex_antennahouse
# [17:06] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [17:06] <dael> zakim, IPcaller.a is alex_antennahouse
# [17:06] <Zakim> sorry, dael, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller.a'
# [17:06] <Zakim> +??P7
# [17:06] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [17:06] * Zakim sees on the phone: +1.631.398.aaaa, glazou, plinss, dael, Florian, sanja (muted), MikeMiller, adenilson, [IPcaller], kwkbtr, murakami, vollick, tgraham, BradK, [Microsoft], smfr,
# [17:06] * Zakim ... dauwhe (muted), alex_antennahouse, fantasai, dbaron, ??P7
# [17:06] * Zakim [Microsoft] has Rossen
# [17:06] <bcampbell> IPcaller is me
# [17:06] <Zakim> +??P20
# [17:06] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P20 is me
# [17:07] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:07] <bcampbell> [IPcaller]
# [17:07] <dbaron> Zakim, [Ipcaller] is bcampbell
# [17:07] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
# [17:07] * Zakim hears ??P7's hand down
# [17:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:07] * Bert zakim, ??P7 is me
# [17:07] * Zakim +Bert; got it
# [17:07] <dael> glazou: We have regrets from chris, TabAtkins will be running late, and poss tantek
# [17:07] <dael> glazou: Anything to add?
# [17:07] * leaverou anyone else had issues with Zakim today?
# [17:08] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Feb/0445.html
# [17:08] <dael> Florian: I'd like to add underlining spaces. Also, impl had two weeksot review box sizing. There's one week left, but I haven't heard anything.
# [17:08] * Rossen leaverou, do you need us to rough him up a bit?
# [17:08] <dael> glazou: We'll add underlining spaces at the end of the agenda.
# [17:08] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
# [17:08] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:08] <dael> Topic: mandating some cursor formats
# [17:08] * SimonSapin leaverou today was fine by I had to try to connect three times last week
# [17:09] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (10%), Florian (36%)
# [17:09] <dael> glazou: This will be difficult without ChrisL or tantek
# [17:09] <Zakim> +Lea
# [17:09] <dael> Florian: Can we take this a bit later once we have TabAtkins ?
# [17:09] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [17:09] <bkardell_> Florian: shh
# [17:09] <dael> Topic: the 'all' issue
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# [17:09] <dael> glazou: Is Cameron on? Prob not because of time
# [17:09] <dael> glazou: Item 3 is removed from the agenda. Let's do #6
# [17:10] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0161.html
# [17:10] <dael> Topic: Generalizing region-fragment
# [17:10] <dael> Florian: I sent a long e-mail a while ago dealing with fragments. I won't re-summerize, but what's tricky is naming the exact values.
# [17:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [17:11] <dael> Florian: This isn't a great topic for the call, but there hasn't been much on the list. The idea is you have one value to overflow as usual. There's another where if you overflow you do it as a frag container.
# [17:11] <dael> Florian: Another is picking up the idea from Opera about gen pages. Another is discarding a frag break.
# [17:11] <dael> Florian: Another is go to the next region in the chain if there is one.
# [17:12] <dael> Florian: So this general set is easy to define, but some don't make sense in some places. So if you say go to the next region and you're not in a region chain, what does it mean. So they need to relate to each other. I'm trying to figure out what computes to what.
# [17:12] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [17:12] <dael> Florian: I've realized the initial of 'auto' and the value for go to the next region are the exact same. I don't think auto is a great name for something that computes to.
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# [17:13] <dael> Florian: If we look at how things should be called, 'next' is a good name. IN terms of initial value 'auto' is a good name. I picked auto becuase it's more natual, but I'm still a bit unhappy about the names.
# [17:13] <dael> Florian: This isn't just bikeshedding. So an alternative is instead of having a next value, we could have break that gos to the next or discards if there isn't one, so we wouldn't need discard.
# [17:14] <dael> Florian: The 'break' value it was pointed out that discarding should be more explicit. So discard is a seperate thing. But I'm not entirely happy with it so I'd love more input and I'd like to find better values with more appropriate names.
# [17:14] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [17:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.631.398.aaaa, glazou, plinss, dael, Florian, sanja (muted), MikeMiller, adenilson, bcampbell, kwkbtr, murakami, vollick, tgraham, BradK, [Microsoft], smfr,
# [17:14] <Zakim> ... dauwhe (muted), alex_antennahouse, fantasai, dbaron, Bert, SimonSapin, Lea, [Microsoft.a], [Bloomberg]
# [17:14] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen
# [17:14] <dbaron> the current conclusion seems like the best of the options presented so far
# [17:14] <dael> Florian: I don't know who can resolve it, but it's awareness about there being an issue.
# [17:14] <dael> glazou: It was certainly worth the presentation
# [17:15] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
# [17:15] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [17:15] <dael> Rossen: Starting with the continue prop, it's fairly awk. Continue what? Continue the playback, the streaming of the video, the layout?
# [17:15] <dael> Florian: My org prop was to call it fragmentation which makes more sense for spec people, but less for everyone else.
# [17:16] <dael> Florian: I'm not extatic about the naming. I think continue isn't righta nd fragmentation too obscure. If you have a better name, go for it.
# [17:16] <dael> Florian: It can work, but it's not ideal.
# [17:16] <dael> Rossen: The way I've understood this is it's all about layout, right? It's about layout and how the content inside an element behaves when it crosses a fragmentation boundry
# [17:17] <dael> Florian: There will be one valuet hat doesn't cause it to be a frag cont and all the others will with diff behaviors as to where the content goes. THere's just one value that says don'tbecome a fragmentainor.
# [17:17] <dael> Florian: How we call the prop and what is the set of values, what's in the spec is poss, but I'm not terribly happy about how they're called.
# [17:18] <dael> Rossen: The previous, for me, naming consistancy was a bit better. When basically this spec piggy-backed the overflow prop. Making framents or page, etc
# [17:18] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [17:18] <dael> Florian: Overflow and frag aren't the same. Frag is triggered by overflow a lot, but if you have text shadow bleeding out it won't cause frag.
# [17:18] <dael> Rossen: That's not true. In borders you can define what happens in borders. So overflowing and frag are tightly coupled.
# [17:19] <dael> Florian: There are interactions, but you still want overflow control sep from frag control.
# [17:19] <dbaron> 'continue' is awkward as a CSS property name since it's a verb, whereas most property names are nouns. (I feel like 'continue-in' might be a little more specific, but it still has that problem.)
# [17:19] <dael> Rossen: So how do you have overflow: visable and overflow: fragment
# [17:19] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:19] <dael> Florian: What's the problem with that. If you have position relative or text shadow it blleds out of the content area. This is what you get on an article today.
# [17:20] <dael> Rossen: You're talking about different things. Your'e talking about monolythic things that don't fragment and weither or not something fragments.
# [17:20] <dael> Florian: So the 'continue' prop determes if you're a fragmeentaor or not. If you are a fragmentaior, there are still places that have overflow. And where that overflow occurs it's perfectly described by the overflow prop
# [17:21] <dael> dbaron: The conceptual difference is overflow is painting and layout isn't. You can have overflow in this painting context. It does make sense to have two different things. I'm not crazy about continue. The other problem is it's a verb and most of our names are nouns or adj.
# [17:21] * Bert imagining something like: 'content: <what> <how>, <what> <how>,...' where <what> is the name of a flow (defined by a 'flow-into' property) and <how> is 'continue' (default) or 'restart'
# [17:21] <dael> Florian: Unless we like the fragmentation name, this is the best name we have
# [17:21] <dael> ??: I think fragmentation is a better name
# [17:21] <dbaron> s/??/bradk/
# [17:22] <leaverou> fantasai++
# [17:22] <smfr> spill-over:
# [17:22] <dbaron> Yeah, I agree that fragmentation is not a good name.
# [17:22] <dael> fantasai: No one outside the CSS WG knows what fragemntation is. We want to use a name that authors would understand. So how would they explain my content goes to another page if it doesn't fit. If they have a vocab there great. If they don't we need to have a new name.
# [17:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Do we want to do a poll tomorrow?
# [17:22] <BradK> It's not great, but 'continue' doesn't seem better
# [17:23] <dael> glazou: Find what the photoshop users and inDesign users use. I'm pretty sure this kind of thing exists and if we can re-use that word that would be good. It can be from outside CSS, but if it's known we have to use that.
# [17:23] <dael> glazou: I suggest me move on. Is that okay?
# [17:23] * dauwhe print vocab is so dependent on "page"
# [17:23] <dael> Florian: Sure. I'm not looking for a solution now, I'm looking to raise awareness.
# [17:24] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0253.html
# [17:24] <dael> Topic: the 'all' issue
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: The all prop is a shorthand that resets everything except the unicode bidi. This is a problem in a few cases. The one brought up is all kills the focus outline on an element. It's hard to do manual because even if you use auto style it might not give you the right color. I know on mac it's blue or gray, but auto is always gray
# [17:25] <dbaron> all: initial; outline: unset;
# [17:25] <dbaron> er, no, I guess we'd want default, which we dropped
# [17:25] <fantasai> dbaron, that won't work
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: This is problem b/c a11y. I'm not sure how or if we can solve this. But it's difficult to tell between a prop for all states of an element and one that applies to just the normal state. So it's the same selecor for focused and unfocused unless you go out of your way.
# [17:25] <fantasai> yeah
# [17:26] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions would be great. Maybe we can do something clever about sperating it out and it can go somewhere good with all.
# [17:26] <dael> Florian: Maybe I'm naive about what all is being used for, but would they actually want to say reset to UA?
# [17:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Doesn't matter. You're still going to override the focused value.
# [17:26] <dbaron> q+ to comment on use cases for all
# [17:26] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [17:27] * glazou fantasai’s microphone is too loud compared to other participants
# [17:27] <dael> fantasai: Florian is correct. We have all: default which the authors get what they want. If they're trying to reset everything on their on they have to use a selector that's more specific.
# [17:27] <dael> TabAtkins: That does not apply. All: default doesn't work here. Ther selector that applies is usually .focus
# [17:27] <dael> fantasai: But it doesn't matter across levels
# [17:28] <dael> glazou: Wait. We've got dbaron on the cue.
# [17:28] <leaverou> s/.focus/:focus/
# [17:28] <dael> s/cue/queue
# [17:28] <leaverou> q+
# [17:28] * Zakim sees dbaron, leaverou on the speaker queue
# [17:28] <fantasai> s/it doesn't/specificity doesn't/
# [17:29] <dael> dbaron: I think some of these things are things that aren't where people should use all. I think people would want to use all when you have an element you want to mostly disappear in terms of default styles. So you want to rely on a block with no styles is almost invisable. But you prob don't want to apply all to anything where youw ant initial behaviors
# [17:29] <dael> sonja: I think that authors want to use this to reset all
# [17:29] <dael> dbaron: I don't think that would work.
# [17:29] <glazou> s/sonja/leaverou
# [17:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Neither of the things helps the default selector.
# [17:29] <dbaron> ack dbaron
# [17:29] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to comment on use cases for all
# [17:29] * Zakim sees leaverou on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <leaverou> I don’t think so. I know it :) I recently tweeted about it and got many replies along these lines
# [17:29] <dbaron> ack leaverou
# [17:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <dael> Florian: I was expecting default would be the thing in the UA stylesheet for the same selector.
# [17:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It will run the selectors, but it won't fine the focus rule. And because button: foo is more specific it will over-ride the UA stylesheet.
# [17:30] <dael> dbaron: I think everyone disagrees with you about how default works.
# [17:30] <dael> TabAtkins: Please expalin
# [17:30] <fantasai> fantasai^: Tab, you're making no sense
# [17:31] <dael> dbaron: Default says this declaration overrides the other stuff in this level of the cascade and causes it to fallback to lover levels. So if you have all: default in the author level, you fall back to the winner in the user level.
# [17:31] <adenilson> lover -> lower?
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I was thinking run the cascade with the user level and whatever falls out at the author level.
# [17:31] <dael> fantasai: That's how we defined it.
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: We hadn't defined it.
# [17:32] <dbaron> s/user level/user or UA levels/
# [17:32] <dael> fantasai: We had it in the spec and removed it. What we had is what dbaron explained.
# [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. If that works, fine. Let's put it back in the spec.
# [17:32] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Sound good?
# [17:32] <dael> dbaron: There were issues with default as to why we removed it. We should look at that.
# [17:32] <dael> fantasai: We had impl not see why it was useful and didn't want to impl b/c it was hard.
# [17:32] <dbaron> s/at that/at what they were before we resolve to put it back/
# [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what I recall.
# [17:33] <Zakim> +??P8
# [17:33] <dbaron> I'm fine with adding 'default' back
# [17:33] <dael> fantasai: So instead we created this keyword and they were happy with that.
# [17:33] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P8 is me.
# [17:33] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [17:33] <dael> TabAtkins: We can see if there were further issues and resolve to put it back next week.
# [17:33] <leaverou> If we add default, this would also be useful on a per-property level too
# [17:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It sounds like a proper def will solve the issue.
# [17:33] <dael> fantasai: I can do that tomorrow.
# [17:33] <fantasai> s/I/We/
# [17:33] <dael> glazou: Is tantek on?
# [17:34] <dael> Topic: Mandating some cursor formats.
# [17:34] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [17:34] * leaverou glazou: tantek is probably in the social WG F2F right now
# [17:34] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0199.html
# [17:34] <Zakim> +??P2
# [17:34] <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P2 is me
# [17:34] <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
# [17:34] <dael> glazou: There was some discussion on this and it's quite important. As you prob all know the current only interop for cursor are .cur and .ico. They're interop impl and they're the defacto standard.
# [17:35] <dael> glazou: Unfortinily there is no open spec on them. There's a few doc, but no open spec.
# [17:35] <dael> Florian: I think there's a fairly complete desc on the old new blog.
# [17:36] <dael> glazou: First, my opinion is it would be really useful if we can't madate without a spec, we should add a note saying the two main things are .ico and .cur. Second, we could mandate PNG and Chris, leaverou and I have been for it.
# [17:36] * smfr cursor: linear-gradien(black, white);
# [17:36] <dael> Florian: On that, there were two things. One were to mandatine PNG and SVG if you support SVG. Elsewise we can say anything used by image it must be support here. It would do the same thing mostly with one level of indirection. So why don't we do that and say in image we require PNG.
# [17:37] <dael> SimonSapin: Do we spec a format for fallback?
# [17:37] * leaverou smfr I think other kinds of CSS images have to be supported anyway, that's not a file format…
# [17:37] <dael> Florian: There are many where we don't, but where we can it would be useful
# [17:37] <SimonSapin> s/fallback/background-image/
# [17:37] <dael> fantasai: We don't specify, but we can put a note this is what's used.
# [17:37] <fantasai> s/specify/specify formats anywhere in CSS/
# [17:38] <dael> Florian: For images we don't b/c when they were new we couldn't. Now pretty much everyone supports. For cursor there isn't interop, but there aren't the issues we had 15 years afo with GIF and JPEG.
# [17:38] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [17:38] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [17:38] <Bert> q+ to suggest that MS open the ICO spec.
# [17:38] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [17:39] <SimonSapin> q+
# [17:39] * Zakim sees Bert, SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [17:39] <dael> glazou: I agree with everything from both sides. tantek made it clear you can't ref a non-open format. We haven't before referenced a format, but SVG ref PNG. So in theory we shoudln't, but there is precident. And not mandating formats is why webfonts failed.
# [17:39] * fantasai dbaron, were you also wanting to say something? I thought I heard you
# [17:39] <dael> Bert: I think you said it on the ML, but why don't we ask MS to open the spec?
# [17:39] * dbaron no
# [17:39] <dael> glazou: I was about to ask that.
# [17:39] * TabAtkins Man, Zakim recognizes me *today*. What is up with its phone number recognition?
# [17:40] <dael> glazou: Since we have MS people on the call, I know you cannot answer right now and you'll have to escalate, but these two formats are old and vigorously impl. It would be so good if you could submit them to the concorcium or open them.
# [17:40] <dael> Rossen: We'll have to go through some hoops, we'll take an action.
# [17:40] * shepazu did glazou just say PNG is not an open format?
# [17:40] <dael> action Rossen see about .cur and .ico
# [17:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-676 - See about .cur and .ico [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2015-03-25].
# [17:40] <dbaron> ack Bert
# [17:40] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest that MS open the ICO spec.
# [17:40] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [17:40] <dbaron> ack SimonSapin
# [17:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:41] <dael> SimonSapin: For these two formats, are there any patterns, or intellectual prop issues? Or are they we don't have a spec?
# [17:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I think they're old enough patents have expired.
# [17:41] <dael> Rossen: I don't they've expired. I don't believe there are technical issues. I don't know if the people involved are still witht he company, but there should be documenation.
# [17:42] <dael> Rossen: We'll talk about it and get you back an answer.
# [17:42] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) ("Ex-Chat")
# [17:42] <dael> Florian: I'd like to try and take a few direction. Org go witht he note and add to the note with things from MS if we can. The other is if we can require PNG and SVG.
# [17:43] <dael> glazou: I suggest asking if there's agreement or obj on go witht he note saying .ico and .cur are the standards and they will be expected in new products. It's an informative note
# [17:43] <dael> dbaron: I'd also like to see images.
# [17:43] <dael> Florian: Of course.
# [17:43] <dael> glazou: No obj?
# [17:43] <dael> dbaron: No, but there's a bunch of varients of this where we might have to discuss which we're referring to.
# [17:43] <dbaron> s/varients of this/variants of these formats/
# [17:43] <dael> glazou: It will be up to the person writing the note as to what exactly goes inside.
# [17:44] <dael> glazou: In principle do you agree.
# [17:44] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [17:44] * TabAtkins proposes using OUGHT for this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919#section-4
# [17:44] <dael> RESOLVED: go with the note saying .ico and .cur are the standards and they will be expected in new products. It's an informative note. It will be up to the person writing the note as to what exactly goes inside.
# [17:44] * TabAtkins maybe WOULD PROBABLY
# [17:44] * fantasai is in favor of informative reference
# [17:44] <dael> glazou: Second thing, with PNG and SVG
# [17:44] * fantasai less certain about normative
# [17:45] <dael> Florian: The way I think I'd like to go, #1 on the image value type, there mandate PNG and if the impl supports SVG it must support there. For the cursor level what it supports in static images it must be supported. If they support graphic it should be supported.
# [17:45] <dael> Florian: That matches everyone by IE.
# [17:45] <dael> Florian: There are other ways to do it, but this makes sense to me.
# [17:45] <dael> glazou: It's the most beautiful approach, I agree.
# [17:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with this.
# [17:46] <dael> glazou: Other comments?
# [17:46] <dael> glazou: obj?
# [17:46] <dael> glazou: If you have a comment, please make it. This is a big change in our history.
# [17:46] <dael> TabAtkins: HTML mandates a few formats.
# [17:46] <dael> Rossen: ANd an impl can always not conform.
# [17:46] <dael> Florian: But if you have reason it's worth hearing.
# [17:47] <dael> Rossen: I don't have any offhand before we take it up with the people involved. It would be perhaps worht waiting on this, even if it's a week, before we find out if we'll have any hard reasons not to do it.
# [17:47] <dael> TabAtkins: So the thing you're poss obj to is the image formats?
# [17:48] <BradK> This means we can have a gradient as a cursor?
# [17:48] <dael> Rossen: Yes. But you can always not impl. That's why it's not a hard obj, but always why I'm not completely agreeing. If you give us a week we can have a more def answer.
# [17:48] <dael> Florian: I can write the chane and come back to you before we impl.
# [17:48] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [17:48] <dael> glazou: So there's no obj on the second item, but MS is asking for a week to review.
# [17:48] <dael> Rossen: Okay.
# [17:49] <dael> bcampbell: It appears to me that adding SVG as a cursor image it might improve high contrast cursors. I would assume SVG would scale better.
# [17:49] <dael> Florian: There's nothing preventing that.
# [17:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [17:49] <dael> Rossen: You were saying SVG will give you higher fidelity and better a11y?
# [17:49] <Zakim> +??P3
# [17:49] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P3 is me.
# [17:49] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [17:49] <dael> bcampbell: Yeah, I'm speculating. If you're in high contrast and your cursor grows, I'm going to assume it will scale better.
# [17:49] <dbaron> was there about to be a resolution that got interrupted?
# [17:49] <dael> Rossen: I don't disagree on a technical level.
# [17:49] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [17:50] <dael> Rossen: I jsut need to talk to the people wil law degrees.
# [17:50] <dael> glazou: So no resolution, we'll revisit next week with Rossen input.
# [17:50] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0237.html
# [17:50] <dael> Topic: logical overflow
# [17:50] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:51] <dael> glazou: BradK can you detail the prop?
# [17:51] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
# [17:52] <dael> BradK: It was that we have an switch that allows overflow-x and -y to turn into -inline and -stacking in terms of behavior, but not in terms of computed values or anything like that. It's just an effect. and we can call that prop what we want. Two values, one 'logaical' and one 'physical'
# [17:52] <dael> fantasai: Other prop that have this kind of phsyical, we're creating logical versions. So we should have overflow-line and -block and it will be longhand
# [17:52] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [17:52] * Rossen +1 to what fantasai said
# [17:53] <dbaron> I think fantasai said it would be reset by the 'overflow' shorthand?
# [17:53] * glazou but IRC did not capture it
# [17:53] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [17:54] <dael> Florian: There's two reasons to do this. One is with borders and padding. The other reason is if the frag things we discussed earlier are attached to overflow, they only make sense in the block direction. So the longahnds being physical is inconvenient. But since I don't think it's a good home for the frag, I don't think that's a good point. So I'm all with fantasai
# [17:54] <dbaron> Yeah, I agree with continuing the pattern we've been using rather than using a different pattern for overflow
# [17:54] <dael> BradK: So even if the frag stuff, you still want to know what direction that overflow is in so you can set the overflow in the opposite direction of block overflow
# [17:54] <dael> Rossen: Can you elaborate on your use case? Why logical wouldn't work as well?
# [17:54] <dael> BradK: In terms of the frag being an on screen page.
# [17:55] <dael> BradK: Suppose the frag creating new pages is in vertical direction. You may have long lines you want to overflow: auto prob.
# [17:55] <dael> Rossen: Can we take frag off this. So we have one element with a bunch of text and may have vertical flow.
# [17:55] <dael> Florian: I don't think we can take frag off.
# [17:56] <dael> Rossen: You have have overflow on both sides if you have monolithic elements.
# [17:56] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:56] <dael> BradK: Even if I have columns you might want vertical overflow to be visable but horz to use a scroll bar
# [17:56] <dael> Rossen: We don't have that.
# [17:56] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Florian (76%), [Microsoft] (47%)
# [17:56] <dael> Florian: So if overflow-x and -y is something else, they would both compute to auto.
# [17:56] <dael> BradK: Yeah.
# [17:57] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
# [17:57] <dael> Florian: In general I think this idea of having cases where you need overflow in inline and block is valid. With the same priority we want to do the same thing on overflow. THe extra reason with frag, I don't think it applies anymore.
# [17:57] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:57] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (50%), Bert (4%), glazou (4%), Florian (47%), BradK (29%)
# [17:58] * TabAtkins Man, I'm muted. :(
# [17:58] <dael> BradK: I think the more common way of having two things where we have overflow: auto...you wouldn't know what way you're going.
# [17:58] * TabAtkins better now?
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, mute glazou
# [17:58] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [17:58] * dbaron Zakim, mute TabAtkins
# [17:58] * Zakim TabAtkins should now be muted
# [17:58] <TabAtkins> zakim, mute me
# [17:58] <Zakim> TabAtkins was already muted, TabAtkins
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, unmute glazou
# [17:58] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [17:58] <dael> Rossen: I'f you're to spec logical prop it would work.
# [17:58] * Bert zakim, mute me
# [17:58] * Zakim Bert should now be muted
# [17:58] <dbaron> I think the echo is coming from florian
# [17:58] <dael> Florian: It wouldn't work now b/c we don't have logical varience.
# [17:58] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute me
# [17:58] <Zakim> TabAtkins should no longer be muted
# [17:58] <dael> Rossen: But when we have the which is coming in logical rop spec it would work.
# [17:58] * Florian just tried muting myself
# [17:58] <dbaron> So what are we still disagreeing on?
# [17:58] <dael> BradK: You would have an initial value that's based on the...not the direction
# [17:59] <dael> Rossen: It can be the logical one, not the physical one.
# [17:59] <dael> BradK: We could have two diff initial values depending on horz or vert
# [17:59] <fantasai> If transforms weren't invented, I'd be suggesting we make overflow-x/y and repeat-x/y logical and skip having physical ones, but train left the station already on that one
# [17:59] <dael> dbaron: What is it you're prop to have two diff values?
# [17:59] <dael> Rossen: I don't think that's it. There's the prop of logical or physical
# [17:59] <Florian> +1
# [17:59] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-logical-props/
# [18:00] <dael> dbaron: I think most people, though maybe not everybody, agrees we should overflow the same way we're doing other logical properties. And whichever is decalred later wins the cascade.
# [18:00] * Florian this +1 applies to what dbaron said just below the +1
# [18:00] <dael> BradK: I'm not totally opposed. It seemed there were complication, I'll put something on the ML to see if I can clarify my thoughts.
# [18:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:00] <dael> glazou: So I guess we'll move to the ML. We only have two minutes remaining on the call. Anything we can discuss in 2 min?
# [18:01] <dael> Florian: Transforms won't fit.
# [18:02] <dael> Florian: There's the underline I asked to add. fantasai pointed out the change we agreed to on text decorations cannot go into 3, it needs to be 4. I think the entire prop should be level 4. What do we do about the initial value? object or object together with spaces or some kind of auto depending on how they impl prewrap.
# [18:02] <dael> fantasai: I think that's more than 2 min.
# [18:02] <dael> Florian: Prob. I just wanted to bring it up for awareness.
# [18:02] <dael> fantasai: I think the show one is #3
# [18:02] <dael> Florian: That was resolved.
# [18:02] <fantasai> s/show/short/
# [18:02] <dael> glazou: So there is removing the prop to level 4. Given that it's at risk and there's no impl it could be moved.
# [18:03] <dael> fantasai: What I've heard is apple impl at least one value as how they handle default. So we might need to use it. Also how the behavior of underline is is in that spec. And we don't have a complete publishable level 4. If we're getting to wrap up 3 and have a solid 4, that's fine, but it's not quite ready to be kicked out.
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: I just don't like two levels defining the same thing differently.
# [18:04] <Zakim> -vollick
# [18:04] <dael> fantasai: I'd rather we figure out what we want it to be in level 4 and have that idea and then move it down. The ideas you have, you have a prop but it's not very solid and until it's solid I don't want ot merge it in.
# [18:04] * bkardell_ got another call and missed the all: discussion :(
# [18:04] * Rossen have to leave to a diferent meeting
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: So you think of trying to define it in lvl 4 and once it's solid we move it?
# [18:04] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [18:04] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [18:04] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:05] * leaverou has to leave for another meeting too
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:05] * gregwhitworth I do as well, bye!!
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: If we end up witht he solution that changes the original values we can deal with it then.
# [18:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <dael> Florian: Okay. Whatever we do we can do it in level 4 for now.
# [18:05] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:05] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:05] * dauwhe thanks all!
# [18:05] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:05] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:05] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:05] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:05] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [18:05] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:05] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:05] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:05] <Zakim> -tgraham
# [18:05] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:05] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:05] <Zakim> -murakami
# [18:05] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:05] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: And that closes our conversation for today. Thank you very much.
# [18:05] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 31.5.0/20150217104802]")
# [18:05] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:05] * Quits: AH_Miller (~4c63caf9@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:05] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaaa
# [18:05] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:06] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [18:06] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [18:06] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:06] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:07] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:08] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:10] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, sanja, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [18:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:10] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.631.398.aaaa, glazou, plinss, dael, Florian, sanja, MikeMiller, adenilson, kwkbtr, murakami, BradK, vollick, smfr, tgraham, dauwhe, Rossen, fantasai, dbaron,
# [18:10] <Zakim> ... alex_antennahouse, SimonSapin, bcampbell, Bert, Lea, [Microsoft], [Bloomberg], gregwhitworth, TabAtkins, SteveZ
# [18:11] * Quits: kwkbtr (~kwkbtr@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:11] * Quits: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [18:12] * Quits: sanja (~sanja@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:12] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:13] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
# [18:15] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [18:17] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <tantek> apologies for not being able to participate in the telcon per regrets
# [18:24] <tantek> was there a resolution re: cursor formats? or just suggestions?
# [18:24] <tantek> if there's a proposal for an informative note - please let me know so I may look at it for adding it to the spec
# [18:24] <Florian> there was a proposed resolution, and we're mending feedback from MS before we act on it
# [18:24] <Florian> the proposed resolution is 3 fold
# [18:25] <Florian> 1 - put a note about .ico and .cur about being the compatible format despite the lack of a spec
# [18:25] <Florian> 2 - mandate PNG as a supported format of the <image> css value, as well as SVG if the implementation supports SVG
# [18:26] <tantek> that sounds roughly like what I suggest in my last email on the subject
# [18:26] <Florian> 3 - say for cursor that all non animated formats supported for <image> MUST be supported in cursor, and that all animated formats supported in <image> SHOULD be supported in cursor
# [18:27] <tantek> 3 - sounds like your proposal which I said sounded reasonable
# [18:27] <Florian> Rossen wanted a week to consult people inside MS all all 3 points
# [18:27] <Florian> the proposed resolution is to do all 3
# [18:27] <tantek> any other objections?
# [18:27] <Florian> no, everybody else is cool with it, including Rossen on technical grounds, but he wants to consult legal
# [18:27] <shepazu> fantasai, Rossen, ping?
# [18:28] <Florian> Also, MS took an action to also review with legal if they can produce an open spec for .ico and .cur
# [18:28] <tantek> ok then I'll go ahead and make edits for 2 and 3 and wait on 1
# [18:28] <Florian> Actually, Rossen also wants to check about 2 and 3, so we didn't resolve on these either
# [18:29] <tantek> that's fine, I can make some edits for 2 and 3 optimistically since they don't mention .cur or .ico
# [18:30] <Florian> he explicitely requested that we wait, even when not about .cur and .ico
# [18:30] <tantek> and if he comes back with new information or objections we can evaluate them accordingly
# [18:30] <tantek> ok
# [18:30] <tantek> I'll make edits locally then
# [18:30] <Florian> +1
# [18:31] <Florian> well, for 3 at least. 2 goes into backgrounds and borders, and then we just depend on it.
# [18:31] <tantek> oh that requirement on <image> means to edit the <image> value type definition itsefl
# [18:31] <tantek> ok
# [18:31] <Florian> yes
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# [21:17] <wchen> TabAtkins: ping
# [21:17] <TabAtkins> pong
# [21:18] <wchen> there seems to be some confusion about what it means for a selector to be in the context of a shadow toree
# [21:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, dbaron bugged me about that earlier this week. Gonna do some defining today for it.
# [21:21] <wchen> I'm trying to figure out how chrome is interpreting it, and I've only gotten it to work when :host is the left most selector with nothing to the left of it.
# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Well yeah, the host element is the root of a shadow tree; anything to the left of :host in a selector will cause :host to try (and fail) to match against non-host elements.
# [21:22] <TabAtkins> Unless I'm missing something? In which case a specific example would be good.
# [21:28] <wchen> TabAtkins: so there is a difference between *:host-context and :host-context?
# [21:28] <wchen> or rather *:host and :host
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> Yes. The host element is featureless, so it doesn't match any feature selectors (including the universal selector). <http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#feature>
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> So *:host doesn't match the host element, because * doesn't match the host element.
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> (This is a little weird, but intentional.)
# [21:29] <dbaron> I thought the spec defined featureless elements as having no tag name, classes, attributes, etc., and being in all namespaces... which would mean that they'd match *?
# [21:29] <TabAtkins> No, the universal selector is a type selector.
# [21:30] <dbaron> maybe it was defined that way because the distinction didn't matter
# [21:30] <TabAtkins> (Whether to call it that is arguable, of course, but it's intentional that the host element doesn't match *, so I made the definitions fit.)
# [21:30] <dbaron> but if you're making the distinction matter now, I think you should revisit the prose in the definition
# [21:30] <TabAtkins> Nah, I did that intentionally.
# [21:30] <TabAtkins> What's unclear in the definition? I purposely wrote those to handle this case.
# [21:31] <dbaron> I haven't looked at the definition of * for a decade or so.
# [21:31] <TabAtkins> "The universal selector is a special type selector", and universal selector is defined as a "feature selector". Featureless elements "[do] not match any feature selector, or any selector that resolves based on features".
# [21:32] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Well if you haven't seen the prose since I adjusted it to make this case clear, no wonder you think this case isn't clear. ^_^
# [21:33] <dbaron> I think it's pretty odd to distinguish between explicit * and implicit * given that implicit * picks up the namespace that's associated with the implicit * and that's the mechanism through which implicit * has namespaces.
# [21:33] <TabAtkins> There's no longer any implicit *
# [21:33] <TabAtkins> And there's a note about why that is, in the spec.
# [21:35] <dbaron> it's sometimes nice to run basic changes like this by the working group
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# [21:42] <dbaron> wchen, I guess I should re-review your patch, then
# [21:43] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I did run it by the WG - seee the Aug '14 thread titled "[selectors][css-namespaces][css-scoping] Clash between Namespaces and Scoping regarding implied universal selector"
# [21:43] <TabAtkins> bz and bkardell commented.
# [21:44] <wchen> dbaron: thanks :)
# [21:44] <dbaron> TabAtkins, ok, sorry
# [21:44] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It's fine. ^_^
# [21:45] <TabAtkins> I definitely don't always do that, so your complaint had a decent chance of being well-founded.
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# [22:43] <TabAtkins> Please kill me next time I try to name a property something as unsearchable as "all".
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> It was a clever pun, and reasonably clear, so I'm still happy we took that name, but man, it's impossible to find anything in my mail about it.
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# [22:58] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: How stable is MQ4?
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> Aside from maybe some unimplemented MQs, stable. Syntax is def stable.
# [22:59] <SimonSapin> cool
# [22:59] <SimonSapin> Someone is implementing it for Servo :)
# [22:59] <TabAtkins> Basically I think only overflow-block/inline are possibly unstable. The rest is set.
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# [23:35] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I haven't reviewed it yet
# [23:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: do you think we should impl it behind a flag?
# [23:36] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So, that might mean it's less stable than Tab thinks
# [23:36] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I think so
# [23:36] <SimonSapin> (though it’s not like we have users who will start writing websites that rely on Servo-only features)
# [23:36] <fantasai> heh
# [23:37] <fantasai> that's true
# [23:37] <SimonSapin> ok, fair enough
# [23:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you put will-change into the CR pipeline yet?
# [23:46] <TabAtkins> Nope.
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Trying to actually keep a todo list now; I've dropped a whole bunch of things. Noted.
# [23:47] <fantasai> cool
# [23:47] <fantasai> we should probably go through the entire list of specs tomorrow morning and see what needs to get kicked forward
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Sure.
# [23:47] <fantasai> V&U is on that list, we're so close to republishing
# [23:47] <fantasai> just one stupid <custom-ident> fix
# [23:48] <fantasai> that I can't remember what it is
# [23:48] <fantasai> >_<
# [23:48] * fantasai thinks we should also blog about flexbox % margins and ask for feedback
# [23:49] <fantasai> calc
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> calc()?
# [23:49] <fantasai> sorry, wrong window ^_^;
# [23:49] * fantasai just installed calc
# [23:50] <fantasai> different calc
# [23:50] <TabAtkins> heh, nice coincidence
# [23:50] <fantasai> actually now I think about it, I should uninstall it and just alias calc to python
# [23:50] * fantasai thinks that would be more sensible
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> ...maybe? it's a slightly different thing.
# [23:51] <fantasai> it starts a calculator
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> ah yeah, is ee.
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> sorry, thought it was a quick input/output calculator.
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> if it boots up a repl, yeah, just use python
# [23:52] <SimonSapin> alias i="ipython --no-banner"
# [23:53] <fantasai> although maybe calc is better 'cuz I don't have to import math libraries
# [23:53] * fantasai watches apt die with some weird error
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> You can put the imports into your python call, I think?
# [23:53] <fantasai> or maybe I just can't install anything anymore
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> -m flag?
# [23:53] <fantasai> eh, whatever, I mostly just use it for lazy arithmetic
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> yeah
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> i use either google or the live dom viewer for that a lot. ^_^
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 19 00:00:01 2015

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