/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-04-08 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 08 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [14:59] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: it is non-obvious how to just add a paragraph for a particular document to the status of this document section with bikeshed
# [15:00] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: adding <div data-fill-with=status></div> at the top messes everything up (half the SotD appears after the ToC, the other half before)
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# [17:25] * glazou changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-04-08 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0062.html'
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# [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
# [17:25] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:52] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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# [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, ??P43 is me
# [17:54] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:54] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [17:55] <bcampbell> [IPcaller] is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
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# [17:56] <sanja> Zakim, mute me.
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# [17:56] <Zakim> sanja should now be muted
# [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
# [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:56] <alex_antennahouse> I'm ipcaller.aa I think
# [17:56] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller.aa] (50%)
# [17:57] <dael> zakim, IPcaller.aa is alex_antennahouse
# [17:57] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +Florian
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# [17:57] <tgraham> zakim, [IPcaller.aaa] is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
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# [17:57] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:57] <johanneswilm> sorry, I am new to this. calling via skype. Zakim, I think I am +1.631.398.aaaa
# [17:57] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P22
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is johanneswilm
# [17:58] <Zakim> +johanneswilm; got it
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P22 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:58] <antenna> zakim, 1.631.398.aaaa is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, antenna, I do not recognize a party named '1.631.398.aaaa'
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [17:58] <Zakim> +hober
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P18
# [17:58] <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P18 is me
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
# [17:58] * sanja says hi, is muted because of background noises
# [17:58] <Zakim> +astearns
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
# [17:59] * glazou ok sanja
# [17:59] <jdaggett> zakim, +[ipcaller.aa] is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '+[ipcaller.aa]'
# [17:59] <johanneswilm> ok, no idea who I am, but I'm on the call
# [17:59] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller.aa is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
# [17:59] <jdaggett> sehr gut...
# [17:59] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:00] * Florian ♪ ♪ hello hello... I don't know why you say [...] ♪ ♪
# [18:00] <tantek> zakim, who is here?
# [18:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, dael, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], johanneswilm, sanja (muted), dauwhe, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, Florian, gregwhitworth, SimonSapin, SteveZ,
# [18:00] <Zakim> ... dbaron, hober, kwkbtr, astearns, jdaggett, fantasai
# [18:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, jdaggett, kwkbtr, gregwhitworth, sanja, bcampbell, johanneswilm, dael, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, antenna, Zakim, glazou, Florian, dbaron, dauwhe, zcorpan,
# [18:00] <Zakim> ... svillar, plh, Ms2ger, fantasai, shepazu, liam, dwim, dholbert, hgl, birtles, paul___irish, mihnea_____, ppk___, mvujovic______, shane, krit, hober, heycam|away, RRSAgent, Bert,
# [18:00] <Zakim> ... rego, sylvaing, projector, rbyers, lmclister______, stryx`, Hixie, shans, SimonSapin, decadance, achicu_____, gsnedders, plinss, logbot, ed, panzana`, Rossen, leaverou,
# [18:00] <Zakim> ... CSSWG_LogBot
# [18:00] <dael> glazou: Let's start.
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P58
# [18:00] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
# [18:01] <dael> ??: The font rendering proposal is something I'd like to discuss
# [18:01] <dbaron> s/??/jdaggett/
# [18:01] * TabAtkins will be there imminently.
# [18:01] <dael> glazou: We'll put that after item #1 since you're far away.
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:01] <dael> jdaggett: We can hold off until TabAtkins is on the call.
# [18:01] <dael> glazou: No problem. Anything else?
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aabb
# [18:01] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0536.html
# [18:01] <dael> Topic: Loading Fonts and Changes in Status
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> zakim, aabb is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:01] <dael> jdaggett: We should wait for TabAtkins
# [18:01] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's do this.
# [18:02] <tantek> I joined the call but Zakim didn't say ?? joined
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# [18:02] <dael> jdaggett: The first item is basically the way CSS Font Loading spec is written it sort of requres certain state changes to ccur in a certain order.
# [18:02] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [18:02] <dael> jdaggett: t seems that's unnecessary.
# [18:02] <dael> TabAtkins: We want to ensure state changes happen in a specific order. Otherwise peole get bigs.
# [18:02] <tantek> zakim, who is here?
# [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, dael, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], johanneswilm, sanja (muted), dauwhe, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, Florian, gregwhitworth, SimonSapin, SteveZ,
# [18:02] <Zakim> ... dbaron, hober, kwkbtr, astearns, jdaggett, fantasai, ??P58, Bert, TabAtkins, [Microsoft]
# [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, tantek, jdaggett, kwkbtr, gregwhitworth, sanja, bcampbell, johanneswilm, dael, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, antenna, Zakim, glazou, Florian, dbaron, dauwhe,
# [18:02] <Zakim> ... zcorpan, svillar, plh, Ms2ger, fantasai, shepazu, liam, dwim, dholbert, hgl, birtles, paul___irish, mihnea_____, ppk___, mvujovic______, shane, krit, hober, heycam|away,
# [18:02] <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Bert, rego, sylvaing, projector, rbyers, lmclister______, stryx`, Hixie, shans, SimonSapin, decadance, achicu_____, gsnedders, plinss, logbot, ed, panzana`, Rossen,
# [18:02] <Zakim> ... leaverou
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> s/bigs/bugs/
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.425.301.aacc
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> s/peole/people/
# [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:03] <dael> jdaggett: The ordering is fine. If there's a guar at a certain point we should be careful. In this case a font could end up being loaded trivially.
# [18:03] <TabAtkins> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0536.html
# [18:03] <tantek> zakim, ??p58 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:03] * tantek is guessing.
# [18:03] <Rossen> zakim, +1.425.301.aacc is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:03] <tantek> TabAtkins++ depending on implementation details of async/sync is a huge recipe for bugs
# [18:03] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. Let me link the e-mail. In these examples I think they're Chrome bugs. We shouldn't have behavior depending on impl concerns. People depend on sync behavior in one browsers and it doesn't work in another.
# [18:03] <dael> jdaggett: You're forcing slow.
# [18:04] <dael> TabAtkins: Consistant.
# [18:04] <dael> jdaggett: Consistant but slower.
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# [18:04] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:04] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:04] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:04] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. I am requiring that because it's req for several cases. It's not obvious to me which should be sync. I don't think we should have an API that sometimes makes sync changes and sometimes makes async.
# [18:05] <dael> jdaggett: I think when we impl in Geicko you have to introduce artifical states where you can load this and it's in a cache, whatever the reason is you end up having to put it into an extra state and spin the event loop and then set up something where it comes out at the next spin so you're doing the right thing.
# [18:05] <dael> jdaggett: It seems like a lot of additional that's not that ness.
# [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: I think having an API that can do sync or async depending, I think that's bad for browsers. They have to do odd things for some cases anyway. It requires you to say even though we're capable of doing it fast, we're going to wait for the next event loop.
# [18:06] <dael> jdaggett: Maybe we need to hear back from the Chrome impl because for us it creates artificial states.
# [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: That's, yes, if you do a URL and sometimes it's sync and sometimes async because sometimes it got loaded somewhere else, that will be a source of bugs for authors. This kind of unpredicablility is always a problem.
# [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: It might happen because they've loaded in their test enviroment, but once you're public it won't be loaded yet.
# [18:08] <dael> jdaggett: I think it's an artifical simplifaction of something that's already complex. I don't think you're introducing bugs when you say if it's simple if can change. Introducing artifical boundries...this thing happens, then this etc. in all cases, you end up with sync cycles that aren't great for authors.
# [18:08] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: But doing anything else creates unpredictability. I'm going to pbject that to something that allows sync or async.
# [18:09] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:09] <dael> jdaggett: Talking this over with Cameron this doesn't make sense, but we need ot talk to others. There's two impl that feel like the right way, but the spec says something else.
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that might be because I set status to loading and that's really bad. It might be we're taking advantage of that at the time of impl, but we're being stricter because of feedback that I should be strict in async.
# [18:10] <dael> jdaggett: It would help if you can post the downsides of changing this? I think examples of bad would be helpful.
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: And I can link back to the e-mails that caused me to change.
# [18:11] <dael> dbaron: Also, when there's a callback there's a risk of authos expecting async and having that be a problem when it syncs.
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Anything that keys off will be promice based. I'm worrying that authors will expect it to change sync-ly and it not changing sync-ly in other cases.
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: So TabAtkins you'll accept an action to provide more information?
# [18:11] <dael> jdaggett: And it might be useful to hear from other members of the chrome team.
# [18:12] <dael> Action TabAtkins to provide more info to jdaggett
# [18:12] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:12] <trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Provide more info to jdaggett [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2015-04-15].
# [18:12] <dael> Topic: Media Queries (item 2)
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: So back to MS. I think gregwhitworth you posted?
# [18:13] <dael> gregwhitworth: I expressed our desire for it to be should for the pointer. I read Florian feedback and I still think it should be a should. Especially for the future because we don't know about MQ down the road.
# [18:13] <dael> gregwhitworth: I've layed it out in the e-mails.
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure if it's on the call, but I don't understand your point. When it comes to future-proofing I think that's erronious. If we find something that should be should, we can change that. I don't think we should take future needs as a reason to not have it strict.
# [18:14] <dael> Florian: As to pointers, If you disagree with my example I'd like to understand what I'm missing.
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# [18:15] <dael> gregwhitworth: Your scenario where we have a continum model. The surface where 90% of the time they're using in a touch format. Then they take it to work and dock it they have a mouse. So what you're saying the primary is touch, but now it's mouse. So that's why I think it should be a should
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# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: That seems irrelenvent.
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# [18:15] <dael> Florian: So you're saying you don't think the primary pointer has changed. So you don't change it. But if it has changed, let the author know.
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't see why if you think the pointer has changed you shouldn't change it.
# [18:15] <dael> gregwhitworth: So I don't see why the OS...
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Then you don't know it's changed. This is saying if you know the value has changed, let the browser know and you must do that.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: So whatever happens in the enviroment causes it to change, then the broswer should match. And i think it's straight forward for Windows because you have that in the OS.
# [18:17] <dael> gregwhitworth: For ex we have plug and play on the OS so we know when something changes. But with a divice that doesn't have plug and play that's not possible.
# [18:18] <dael> gregwhitworth: If we have a divice that doens't have the capability, I'm questioning if we're talking about a must or the end author. They're going to think I said pointer is fine and they must reevaluate, they're not going to tak that browsers will change.
# [18:18] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: But if you have a device that's not plug and play it wouldn't be primary.
# [18:18] <ChrisL> +1
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Would it help if we add "that they're aware of"
# [18:18] <dael> gregwhitworth: That feels like a should.
# [18:18] * tantek (that was weird), my phone dropped and Zakim said -[Microsoft]
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: What we want to avoid is UA knowing and not changing.
# [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron++
# [18:19] <Florian> +1 to dbaron
# [18:19] <dael> dbaron: If you want exceptions for certain MQ characteristics, we should make those exceptions for just those. Don't weaken the spec for things like width.
# [18:19] <ChrisL> let's go for the more granular and the "that they are aware of"
# [18:19] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:20] <dael> gregwhitworth: That's what I said in my e-mail. If we take MQ at a granualar level and things where there's introp make it must. But I think for pointer...Tab I think it's a good idea to add that. But I'd rather get more granular. So these 5 must and this one should.
# [18:20] <tantek> Zakim, ??p1 is me
# [18:20] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:20] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:20] <Zakim> tantek was already muted, tantek
# [18:20] <tantek> huh
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: So when a browser knows about the MQ, no author will expect it to change if the UA can not know about the change in the enviroment. I htink we can add the prhasing, but I don't htink it's significant. The other changes go under deciding what is the primary device.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: I'm okay with granualr, but I'd want must on everything we have.
# [18:21] <dael> gregwhitworth: What's the point of gran then?
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: Well, exactly.
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# [18:22] <dael> gregwhitworth: So we're at an impass. I understand your point, but if I'm photoshop and I have a UI for touch and one for website and have it where if you have a pointer fine, they plug in the mouse and expect the UA to adjust they should expect that. Then I see that pop up and expect the mouse, but the UA thinks the most used is touch.
# [18:22] * ChrisL imagines the "most used" changing suddenly after waggling the mouse a lot
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# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: You're still talking about the definition of the pointer MQ, not if you know it's changed. Let's not talk about if it should change. I haven't heard arguements for if the browser knows the MQ has changed it should change. I haven't hear any reason not to change ot a must.
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okay with the one change to make it clearer that it only expects to change things when it knows about it. I'm fine with that.
# [18:23] <dael> gregwhitworth: Ultimatly I'm fine with it being a must as long as it's stated for authors to be aware of. I did get hung up on def of a pointer, but that's the one we worried about.
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay, I'm kaing the change now.
# [18:24] <dael> s/kaing/making
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> proposed resolution: Change the appropriate sentence in MQ to "User agents must re-evaluate <a>media queries</a> in response to changes in the user environment that they're aware of,"
# [18:24] * tantek does this telcon normatively reference 2119?
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Objections? gregwhitworth are yo okay?
# [18:24] <dael> gregwhitworth: Yes.
# [18:24] * fantasai suggests putting "that they're aware of" in parens
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:24] <dael> RESOLVED: Change the appropriate sentence in MQ to "User agents must re-evaluate <a>media queries</a> in response to changes in the user environment that they're aware of,"
# [18:24] * Florian (not sure it matters)
# [18:25] <dael> Topic: Font Issue
# [18:25] * TabAtkins Okay, change is pushing now.
# [18:25] * Florian fantasai: not sure it matters, why would you want parens?
# [18:25] <glazou> :)
# [18:25] <jdaggett> http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-font-rendering/
# [18:26] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:26] <dael> jdaggett: Back in March TabAtkins put together a better version of the old proposals for what's being called font rendering prop but it's more like a font load control prop. It's giving the author control over the intermediate presentation when downloadable fonts are used. Diff browsers have diff behaviors around what's displayed when the pages loads and the font is avail.
# [18:26] * glazou someone is typing FAR too close to microphone please
# [18:26] <dael> jdaggett: Some display nothing, some do a fallback, for Chrome and FF they do a bit of both. Nothing at first, fallback if it takes too long. IE always does fallback, Safari will always show a blank page until the font loads.
# [18:26] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:27] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tantek.a (50%), jdaggett (71%), TabAtkins (43%)
# [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, mute TabAtkins
# [18:27] * Zakim TabAtkins should now be muted
# [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, mute tantek.a
# [18:27] * Zakim tantek.a should now be muted
# [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, unmute TabAtkins
# [18:27] * Zakim TabAtkins should no longer be muted
# [18:27] * TabAtkins Ugh, sorry if I was noisy.
# [18:27] <Florian> q+
# [18:27] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <dael> jdaggett: The prop is for a prop that lets you set the timeout. I don't htink this is a great idea. I'm not sure what the right way to put a handle on this, but I think the idea of a low-level timeout is a bad thing to give to an author.
# [18:27] * glazou thanks dbaron
# [18:27] * tantek ugh sorry that I duplicated.
# [18:27] * TabAtkins loves how Zakim doesn't understand percentages.
# [18:27] <tantek> Zakim, tantek.a is in tantek
# [18:27] <Zakim> +tantek.a; got it
# [18:27] <tantek> zakim, who is here
# [18:27] <Zakim> tantek, you need to end that query with '?'
# [18:27] <tantek> zakim, wow, really?
# [18:27] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
# [18:27] <dbaron> tantek, please use who is on the phone rather than who is here
# [18:28] <tantek> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dael, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], johanneswilm, sanja (muted), dauwhe, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, Florian, gregwhitworth, SimonSapin, SteveZ, dbaron,
# [18:28] <Zakim> ... hober, kwkbtr, astearns, jdaggett, fantasai, tantek (muted), Bert, TabAtkins, Rossen, ChrisL, ??P32, koji, plinss, tantek.a (muted), BradK
# [18:28] <Zakim> tantek has tantek.a
# [18:28] <dael> jdaggett: It's going to be variable, what you give them. The way fonts are downloaded is via the content of the page and when exactly that mode starts will vary from impl and how long it takes will deend on what else is loading that the same time. So a 2 sec timeout you set may have no realtion to the same timeout on another browser.
# [18:28] <dael> jdaggett: I also don't feel like authors should be able to say i never want to show content until this font loads. I think that's poor design. A lot of people complain about where you're looking at a page and the content has loaded, but you won't see anything.
# [18:29] * tantek wf;dr - webfont download timeout - didn't read
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: I recieved a lot of complaints asking if it's a CSS problem.
# [18:29] * tantek especially on mobile.
# [18:29] <glazou> right
# [18:29] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:29] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:29] <tantek> q+
# [18:29] * Zakim sees Florian, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <dael> jdaggett: I can see it reasonable to say let's have a hint like this font is important and load it first, but explicit timeouts isn't interop
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> ...
# [18:29] <tantek> q?
# [18:29] * Zakim sees Florian, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute me
# [18:29] <Zakim> TabAtkins was not muted, TabAtkins
# [18:30] * ChrisL tab has hit his explicit timeout
# [18:30] * sanja nice!
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> Actually, I haven't yet - I'm still being hidden.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> I'm gonna disconnect and come back.
# [18:30] * ChrisL flash of unstyled tab
# [18:30] <glazou> ok TabAtkins
# [18:30] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:30] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: While we find TabAtkins, I'm not entirely sure the current design is right, but having the prop is a good idea. Both users and authors have preferences, but there are disagreements as to if you should have fallback or just wait, so this is something where people like the control.
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: If this should be expressed in terms of timeout, I have less of an opinion, but having a way for authors and users to switch between behaviors is something I'm in favor of.
# [18:31] <dael> jdaggett: User and author wants can be conflicting.
# [18:32] <dael> jdaggett: It's primarily a mobile problem, so there's no user stylesheet.
# [18:32] <glazou> dbaron++
# [18:32] <dael> dbaron: I don't htink it's a problem of lowsy UAs, I thinkw e want to find a solution for all users, not the small number of users what can edit their stylesheet.
# [18:32] <fantasai> s/lowsy/lousy/
# [18:32] <dbaron> ... or go in to the preferences ui
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: THe big issue is most browsers do the block for a couple sec and then show the fallback. The fact that it's uncontrollable is what I'm trying to address. The point is to let authors control if you swap in at some point. So discussion on allowing people to block seems backwards because today everyone blocks. So unless we're saying UAs can't ever block, saying we don't want to let authors control blocking isn't relevent.
# [18:34] <dael> jdaggett: But people are fiddling around to finagle around that.
# [18:34] <Florian> Totally agree with Tab
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't want hacks around to be a fix for thing. This prop might not be ideal, but I'm trying to make the crazy hacks not be nec
# [18:34] <Zakim> -??P32
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: Most people that complained about Safari don't know what local storage is. This kind of work arounds, they just don't know.
# [18:35] <Zakim> +??P11
# [18:35] <adenilson> Zakim, ?P11 is me.
# [18:35] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named '?P11'
# [18:35] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P11 is me.
# [18:35] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:35] <Florian> q+
# [18:35] * Zakim sees Florian, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <tantek> timeouts--
# [18:35] * Florian sees tantek on the queue, you should go before me
# [18:36] <dael> jdaggett: I'm fine with wording saying don't do what Safari is doing, but I do think the way the prop is structure with explicit timeouts, you allow authors to say never display until it's pure. That's a problem for someone that makes a UA. I want to be able to give the usrs something they want so I don't think respecting a forever timeout is good.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: YOu're trying to move the responcibility for showing things to the UA. This will be self-controled, users will go away if it's mis-used.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I do think it's bad if people are doing heavy blocking and I'd be okay with allowing UA to have a max timeout. That could be user controled or set as a defualt.
# [18:37] <dael> jdaggett: This may seem orthg but I think it's important to put in hints to initiate the load ASAP because that's the underlying reason.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: It is orthg. If you're using the ont right away you still have to deal with the download times. That still needs tobe controleed.
# [18:38] <dael> jdaggett: The reason you get that is the font load is initiated late. If you have something initiate the font load you're less likely to get the beheavior.
# [18:38] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [18:38] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I can get the font intomation in the first network passage and still have to wait the few seconds due to UA behavior. This is to let that be fixed and have better rendering.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> s/passage/packet/
# [18:39] <fantasai> Florian++
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: There's 3 useful values. Auto is the browser does whatever it wants to do. Another is show it immediatly even if you don't have the font. The third is show the content immediatly and don't refresh when you get the font. If it's useful to be able to set explicit times I'm not convinced of, but being able to say show immediatly is important.
# [18:39] <dael> jdaggett: I'd have less problem with that.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Those are the three planned values. If we want to allow the explicit timeouts on the keywords, we can do tht later.
# [18:40] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [18:40] <dael> jdaggett: The keywords are different. The prop is much finer granded.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: No.
# [18:40] <tantek> do we have any examples of *good* behavior with non-blocking webfont loading?
# [18:40] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: They are they same three keywords.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I think those are sufficient. What jdaggett objects tot he the timeout.
# [18:41] <fantasai> s/even if you don't have the font/even if you don't have the font, swap it when you get the font/
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: This is only a draft. We can keep stuff people disagree with and it will be eventually removed if we don't get the 2 impl.
# [18:41] <dael> dbaron: I don't htink that's a reason to put things in we don't want.
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: So we have 2 options. Keep stuff and remove later or if we have a comprimise, et rid of it.
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: I think if we don't agree on something it should be dropped and keep what we have consensus on.
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: I thinkt he prop is important and I would suggest removing the parts jdaggett objects to and putting them back.
# [18:42] <fantasai> s/something/something and we don't have a clear path of working on it towards consensus/
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okay with moving them from the main spec and discussing it later.
# [18:42] <dael> glazou: So the parts of having a duration?
# [18:42] <dael> jdaggett: It's the timeout aspect of it.
# [18:43] <dael> glazou: So are there obj to removing the timeout portions from the font loading?
# [18:43] <dael> RESOLVED: remove the timeout portions from the font loading
# [18:43] <ChrisL> yes
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: So can I put it as an ED?
# [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with John, I'm in favor of dropping timeout and keeping the rest
# [18:43] <astearns> +1 to publish as a font loading spec
# [18:43] <dael> jdaggett: We can, but we need to have an issue that it needs another name.
# [18:43] <ChrisL> yeah the name is poor
# [18:44] <dael> glazou: Okay, so we need to change the name and we need a short name.
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: Font Loading
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: We have it. The Font Loading API
# [18:44] <ChrisL> font-loading-declarative
# [18:44] <dael> glazou: font loading control
# [18:44] <astearns> font loading level 2?
# [18:44] <BradK> Font-not-loading
# [18:44] <dael> jdaggett: font loading control isn't bad.
# [18:44] <ChrisL> font-ld
# [18:44] * TabAtkins Long shortnames = :(
# [18:44] <dael> glazou: Okay. Font Loading Control. Done.
# [18:44] <fantasai> Can we just add it to the font loading module???
# [18:45] * Bert :-) bradk
# [18:45] <dael> Topic: curson image formats
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: So there were two different issues on this.
# [18:46] <tantek> zakim, am I muted?
# [18:46] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen: The first issue, like gregwhitworth pointed out, we're still waiting. ON the technical side as to if we can support other image formats, we should be able to. If we'll do it is a different question. Technically there are no limitations.
# [18:46] * glazou the font-loading-control-module-of-the-css-wg-of-the-world-of-this-universe
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen: Obviously if other browsers support the different cursor formats, there's nothing holding us back.
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen: It has to be differentiated in impl follow-up. But we should be able to support it.
# [18:46] * fantasai thinks font-loading property should either be in css-font-loading or css-fonts
# [18:47] <dael> ChrisL: If it helps I made some tests. It was one test for each format tht was proposed. That's sitting there.
# [18:47] <tantek> q?
# [18:47] * Zakim sees Florian, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:47] * tantek q lol
# [18:47] <Florian> q-
# [18:47] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen: Sorry, you were breaking up, were you asking if we shouldr eview all the different formats?
# [18:47] * fantasai thought we had an outstanding action to create Fonts Level 4??
# [18:47] * fantasai jdaggett ^
# [18:47] <dael> ChrisL: No, I'm saying I've got some tests that lets us see what browsers support it. I've also got tests for PNG.
# [18:48] <jdaggett> fantasai: yes, back in the oct f2f i asked permission to start one
# [18:48] * glazou ChrisL « fmur bdar plor fmur » Rossen « Chris, can’t hear you, did you say bla?» ChrisL « Fmur nur blor mar nabur »
# [18:48] <tantek> I'd like to move forward with: Informative note that browsers support .cur, and Normative must requirement of PNG / SVG
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen: So the low-level cursor API support a bitmap and an alpha channel map. Anything can become a bitmap and then used as a cursor. Besides performance I don' think there will be technical reasons. This is about the can we, we can, there are not impl promises.
# [18:48] <ChrisL> plus one to what tantek just typed
# [18:48] <ChrisL> axk tantek
# [18:48] <fantasai> jdaggett, Could we put font-loading in that?
# [18:49] <tantek> hello?
# [18:49] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:49] <Zakim> tantek was not muted, tantek
# [18:49] <ChrisL> ack tantek
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: tantek I agree with your point. [reads from IRC]
# [18:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute tantek.a
# [18:49] <Zakim> tantek.a should no longer be muted
# [18:49] <fantasai> I feel like having a pile of one-property specs isn't really helpful to people trying to find things and understnad how they fit together
# [18:49] <jdaggett> fantasai: i think font loading spec would be better
# [18:49] <fantasai> :)
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: That was the org proposal.
# [18:49] <fantasai> jdaggett: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-font-loading/ ?
# [18:49] <jdaggett> yes
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: It went a bit further. It was you must support anything you do through the image value type.
# [18:49] <tantek> hello?
# [18:49] <fantasai> That works for me, too
# [18:49] <dbaron> tantek, I think I heard you briefly
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: Anyway, the prop is an informative note about support for cur and normative for PNG/SVG
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: More then that.
# [18:50] <jdaggett> fantasai: font loading is more about the font loading algorithm, since script is involved
# [18:50] * fantasai nods
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: There was a should where if you support something animated you should support it in the cursor as well.
# [18:50] <jdaggett> so having a property in there isn't bad
# [18:50] <fantasai> I'm okay with either
# [18:50] <ChrisL> yes, should is appropriate for animated at this time
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: So opinions and objections please?
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: This is one of the two outstanding issues on CSS3 UI
# [18:50] <ChrisL> (no objections)
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: There seems to be concensus.
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen: I wouldn't object to this. I'm not sure about the animated part.
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: That's why it should. And IE supports animated. It does it though .ani
# [18:51] * glazou Rossen « fmur bdar plor fmur » All « should ! »
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen: Yes. The usefulness if questionable.
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Recommend or req?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Rec.
# [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm okay with that
# [18:52] <dael> tantek: So Micrsoft any obj?
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen: No.
# [18:52] <dael> RESOLVED: we are recommending informatively CUR. Nirmatively PNG and SVG and saying should support animated formats too.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: And the image will normatively require SVG and PNG
# [18:52] <Florian> s/image/<image>/
# [18:52] * dauwhe wow, that's the loudest typing I've ever heard!
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: Okay.
# [18:52] * dbaron Zakim, mute tantek.a
# [18:52] * Zakim tantek.a should now be muted
# [18:53] <tantek> RESOLVED: Informative note about browsers .cur support. Normatively MUST support PNG, SVG, and any other static {image} formats your UA supports elsewhere. SHOULD support any other animated {image} formats your UA supports elsewhere.
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: jdaggett and I were discussing the font loading and we're suggesting ti moves to the font loading spec instead of being on it's own. Is that okay?
# [18:53] <tantek> ^^^ all, please double-check that resolution.
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: It would be nice to have it with the font loading API.
# [18:53] <tantek> the details are important
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:53] <dael> RESOLVED: Move it to the font loading API spec.
# [18:54] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0043.html
# [18:54] <dael> Topic: TCY
# [18:54] <ChrisL> tantek yes that is what we agreed
# [18:54] <tantek> Thanks ChrisL, I wanted to get the exact thing in the minutes.
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: It's a text level prop and I was suggesting we include it in ::marker because that's common and not a layout thing.
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: So it should be okay to add and we can mark as at risk, but it's an important use case.
# [18:54] <dael> Rossen: Is this level 3?
# [18:54] <jdaggett> really?!? hmmm
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: pseudo-elements level 3 for ::marker
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: What do you think?
# [18:55] <dael> Rossen: I don't have an obj. You mentioned it's common.
# [18:55] <Florian> tantek: Almost. change second sentence to: Normatively require any supported static <image> formats, and normatively required that <image> supports at least PNG and static secure SVG.
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: It's for when you have upright and veritical text. I don't have an ex off the top of my head. Let me see if I have any.
# [18:55] <tantek> what is static secure SVG?
# [18:55] <jdaggett> i'm skeptical that TCY is used in ::marker
# [18:55] <Florian> (this makes no difference to cursor, but it makes PNG and SVG mandatory for <images> in general as well)
# [18:55] <dbaron> koji asked if writing-mode is ignored in ::marker
# [18:56] <Florian> tantek: https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/#secure-static-mode
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: Right now ::marker doesn't accept writing mode or any other layout.
# [18:56] <tantek> svgwg.org?!?
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Having the numbers in writing mode is often used. So I question if it's common
# [18:56] <glazou> s/glazou/koji
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen: It's fine as long as there's a good use case for it.
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen: Would also that apply to content?
# [18:56] <tantek> ok I'll find a normative w3.org ref
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: It already does.
# [18:56] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen: Okay, then I believe ::marker should be the same.
# [18:57] <dael> glazou: Is there any obj against fantasai proposal?
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:57] <dael> koji: I'm skeptical, but if there's an ex to demostrate it's useful.
# [18:57] <glazou> s/koji/jdaggett
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: Any case where the entire number is a single unit.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: THere's a lot of cases where 12 is written 1 2 with both upright
# [18:58] <tantek> SGTM
# [18:58] <dael> Rossen: I'm fine with adding this as at risk and then moving on.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:58] <dael> RESOLVED: accept fantasai proposal
# [18:58] * Florian tantek: SGTM?
# [18:58] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:58] <Zakim> tantek was not muted, tantek
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:58] * fantasai needs to tag her scans so can find examples more easily :)
# [18:58] <Zakim> -jdaggett
# [18:58] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:58] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [18:58] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:58] * Quits: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:58] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:58] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:58] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:58] <tantek> SGTM = sounds good to me
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:58] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [18:58] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:58] <Zakim> -tgraham
# [18:58] <Zakim> -koji
# [18:58] <Zakim> -sanja
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:58] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 31.6.0/20150325203137]")
# [18:58] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [18:58] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:58] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:58] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:58] <Zakim> -tantek.a
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: It's the top of the hour. Thank you very much and talk to you next week.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:58] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:58] <Zakim> -johanneswilm
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:58] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, glazou, [IPcaller], +1.631.398.aaaa, sanja, dauwhe, alex_antennahouse, Florian, tgraham, gregwhitworth, johanneswilm, SimonSapin, SteveZ, dbaron,
# [18:58] <Zakim> ... hober, kwkbtr, astearns, jdaggett, fantasai, Bert, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins, [Microsoft], ChrisL, tantek, Rossen, koji, BradK, tantek.a, adenilson
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# [18:59] <fantasai> jdaggett: I se a lot of cases which are (1) (2)
# [18:59] <Florian> tantek: I've spoken to Boris Zbarsky about the proposed changes for box-sizing, and he's ok with it
# [18:59] <fantasai> jdaggett: where the numbers are upright
# [18:59] <fantasai> jdaggett: In such cases, I expect two-digit numbers to be TCY
# [18:59] <tantek> Florian - glad you heard back.
# [18:59] <tantek> Were you able to include the updates we discussed last week?
# [18:59] <dbaron> tantek, since you used has instead of is, tantek was a sub-participant of a number on the call and not actually mute-able, you had to mute/unmute tantek.a
# [18:59] <tantek> re: that one case where IE was busted
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# [19:00] * fantasai isn't finding any lists long enough to show off 2-digit numbers atm
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# [19:00] * fantasai gotta run, laters
# [19:00] * tantek suggests fantasai check buzzfeed lists
# [19:00] <jdaggett> fantasai: not really clear on your example but i suspect that it's different from TCY
# [19:00] <jdaggett> anyways, an example on the list would help
# [19:00] <Florian> tantek: here's the full quote form Boris: "The spec linked from there looks reasonable to me, except for the comefrom/diff/monkeypatch nature of it (which is hard to avoid given the situation) and the fact that I'm not a huge fan of "min inner height" (but I see the problems with "min content height" that fantasai raises, ok)."
# [19:01] <fantasai> jdaggett: how would you format (12)?
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# [19:01] <tantek> dbaron - wow that's confusing
# [19:01] <tantek> I should have just disconnected myself
# [19:01] <fantasai> jdaggett: in vert text in a list wher (1) had an upright 1
# [19:01] <tantek> Zakim, disconnect tantek
# [19:01] <Zakim> sorry, tantek, I don't know what conference this is
# [19:01] <Florian> tantek: I've made a minor addition to reflect the consensus we had last week about computed values.
# [19:02] <Florian> tantek: so I think you should just go ahead and merge the pull request, then we get a working draft out, and let people chew on it for a while.
# [19:02] <jdaggett> sorry, too sleepy...
# [19:02] <Florian> tantek: I believe we had consensus last week about doing that
# [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: k, night night :)
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# [19:02] <tantek> Florian we did - was just waiting to see an email from you saying you'd updated the text with that one fix.
# [19:03] <Florian> tantek: yes, sorry, I only got around doing it today
# [19:03] <tantek> Florian: no problem at all
# [19:03] <tantek> I'm going to merge the pull request into the hg checkout that I have (because I'm still using that workflow)
# [19:04] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [19:04] <Florian> tantek: alternatively, to make things much easier for you, I'll turn this branch into an actual pull request, you go over to github and just click "merge" and then you're done.
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# [19:05] <tantek> or rather, and then I do another "hg pull" after that and it should get the updated copy from github right?
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# [19:05] * tantek is willing to experiment
# [19:05] <Florian> 1) I make a pull request
# [19:05] <Florian> 2) you click merge
# [19:05] <Florian> 3) you hg pull
# [19:05] <Florian> 4) we're done
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# [19:09] * plinss florian & tantek: it might take a minute between steps 2 & 3, you can check hg.csswg.org/drafts to see when the merge lands in hg
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# [19:09] <tantek> thanks plinss, will do
# [19:09] <Florian> plinss: can you make sure that tantek has write access to the wg's github repo?
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# [19:11] <plinss> florian: done
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# [19:14] <Florian> tantek: done. https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/16
# [19:14] <Florian> your tunr
# [19:14] <Florian> your turn
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# [19:16] <Florian> tantek: dinner time. I'll be back later.
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# [19:18] <tantek> sure why not.
# [19:22] * Florian_away noticed over dinner that the merge worked and is properly reflected in git. Not sure about hg
# [19:22] * Florian_away thanks Tantek.
# [19:26] <tantek> and just got it in hg
# [19:27] <tantek> ok, now to do the cursor edits - which I'll likely do later this afternoon
# [19:29] <tantek> Florian_away: I'm going through all the new box-sizing text very carefully too, and may make grammatical adjustments for clarity, while attempting to maintain all the semantics.
# [19:29] <tantek> If I find any normative/semantic problems - I'll point them out.
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# [20:14] <Florian_away> tantek: thanks, stylistic improvements are always welcome. As for normative ones, I do feel a lot better now that Boris has read and approved the text, but of course, if you find something, we'll need to look into it.
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# [21:06] <Florian> tantek: about cursor file formats, thinking of it, I think you're actually right to include PNG and SVG explicitly in the css-ui spec, even if we also add them to <image>. It is a bit redundant, but it reduces the coupling between the specs, which makes testing and independent progress along TR simpler.
# [21:06] <tantek> yes that was my thinking
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# [21:15] <Florian> so: 1) note about .cur and .ico 2) MUST support PNG, secure static SVG, and anything other static format you support in <image> 3) SHOULD support secure animated SVG and any other animated format you support in <image> 4) patch <image> in the relevant spec to require the same thing.
# [21:15] <Florian> s/anything other/any other/
# [21:17] <Florian> tantek: by the way, bikeshed has evolved quite a bit since I did the conversion, and it now generates a bunch of warnings on the spec. Since we're pretty much done now, I'm thinking of going through the whole spec one more time, and while I am at it preparing a pull request with fixes for the bikeshed warnings. Interested?
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# [21:51] <Florian> TabAtkins: I suppose the requirements on <image> to "MUST support secure static SVG and PNG, and SHOULD support secure animated SVG" go into images-4?
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# [23:15] <TabAtkins> Florian: Yeah.
# [23:21] <Florian> fantasai: css-text-decor (level 3) provides an exported definition of currentColor in a note. Is that intentional? It seems strange to have a definition in a note, especially for something that's already defined elsewhere. Other specs that refer to current color pick it up.
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> Values are exported by default, so the exporting isn't intentional. Putting a <dfn> in a note is definitely a (probably accidental) mistake, tho.
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 09 00:00:00 2015

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