/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-04-22 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 22 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [13:59] <Florian> When tests are submitted for a spec that is already REC which also has a (non REC) next level, I think it would be good to update the links in the spec to point to the newer spec instead, so that it gets included in a test suite that is more actively looked at nowadays. Is that reasonable?
# [14:02] <Florian> concrete example, there are a handful of tests pending review (some by me, some not) for using calc in a media query, and they refer to MQ3. I'd like to update them to point to MQ4, to give the tests more exposure. Yay or Nay?
# [14:16] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [14:42] * Ms2ger grumbles about versioning tests
# [14:43] <Florian> sure. But it's not really about directly versioning the tests, just that the test contain links to the spec they tests, and the specs are versionned.
# [14:45] <Florian> Maybe we should have a way to mark up a spec as replacing one or more sections of other specs, and when you do that, all the tests that were relevant for these old sections get pulled into the test suite of the new spec.
# [14:46] <Florian> (unless you blacklist some tests because they were valid for the old spec, but not for the new one. But if you need to do that, we probably need to errata the old spec, and the tests won't be valid for it either anymore)
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# [15:28] <`> :)
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# [16:09] <SimonSapin> astearns, TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-regions/#the-flow-into-property links to MQ4 for <ident>. This seems kinda random.
# [16:09] <SimonSapin> That is, in the propdef table. <ident> in the prose links to CSS2.1 with a dated URL
# [16:10] <Florian> SimonSapin: I am not sure MQ4 should define <ident> in the first place
# [16:10] <SimonSapin> right
# [16:11] <Florian> however, css-syntax doesn't define it
# [16:12] <Florian> instead, it has this (which MQ4 refer to):
# [16:12] <Florian> identifier: A portion of the CSS source that has the same syntax as an <ident-token>. Also appears in <at-keyword-token>, <function-token>, <hash-token> with the "id" type flag, and the unit of <dimension-token>.
# [16:12] <SimonSapin> It defines <ident-token>, while Values & Units defines <custom-ident>
# [16:13] <Florian> I am not sure I see the different between MQ4 using <ident> and defining it as "identifier", which has the same syntax as <ident-token>, and MQ4 using <ident-token> directly.
# [16:13] <SimonSapin> I’m not convinced by `<mf-value> = <number> | <dimension> | <ident> | <ratio>` in MQ4, we don’t have anything like it for property values.
# [16:13] <SimonSapin> It could be "whatever syntax this praticular media feature defines for its value)
# [16:13] <SimonSapin> s/)/"/
# [16:14] <SimonSapin> I wouldn’t be surprised if Regions linking to MQ4 is accidental, with Bikeshed finding dfns with the same name
# [16:14] <Florian> Regions linking to MQ4 is certainly accidental
# [16:15] <Florian> I'm just wondering how to fix MQ4 to avoid attracting this kind of stray links
# [16:16] <Florian> As for <mf-value> this constrains the possible syntax for MQs, so that the error handling can be defined generically. Isn't that a good thing?
# [16:18] <Florian> in particular, I think it is useful in <mf-range>, to avoid having to repeat that for each property that accepts range syntax.
# [16:21] <Florian> Either way, I don't see what we gain by using <ident> defined to be identifier, instead of using <indent-token> in MQ4, and avoiding introducing a definition
# [16:21] <SimonSapin> I think Region should use <custom-ident>
# [16:21] <SimonSapin> Flow names are author-defined
# [16:21] <Florian> what's the difference?
# [16:22] <Florian> ah, ok
# [16:22] <SimonSapin> It’s case-sensitive, mostly
# [16:22] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#custom-idents
# [16:23] <Florian> doh! we have another problem. Unrelated to what you are talking about, but I just realized reading this.
# [16:24] <Florian> There's a collision on the "default" keyword, which is a CSS global keyword, and a value of the cursor property.
# [16:30] <SimonSapin> 'default' is excluded in <custom-ident> in case we want to make it a global keyword, but it’s not right now
# [16:30] <SimonSapin> (it was in Cascade 3 at some point, but was replaced with unset)
# [16:30] <Florian> it is now
# [16:30] <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade-4/#valdef-all-default
# [16:31] <SimonSapin> oh, right, I forgot about Cascade 4
# [16:31] <SimonSapin> so yes, there is a conflict
# [16:34] <Florian> :(
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# [16:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we should publish another LC of Flexbox, since it's sorely out-of-date and we still have open issues that we can't solve on our own
# [16:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Thoughts?
# [16:54] <astearns> SimonSapin: I agree that regions should use <custom-ident>
# [16:55] * Ms2ger is still amused by the idea of "another LC"
# [16:55] * fantasai would prefer to just update CR in place, but we're trapped in an Old Process cycle atm
# [16:55] <fantasai> and can't get out !
# [16:57] <Florian> fantasai: if we can demonstrate wide review (and I believe we can), we should be able to go to new CR directly from the old one.
# [16:58] <fantasai> Florian: We're in LC currently
# [16:58] <Florian> oh, shoot.
# [16:58] <fantasai> Florian: So no, we can't. We have to complete the Old Process LC cycle
# [16:58] <fantasai> and /TR is way out of date
# [16:58] <Florian> well, you can do LC -> WD -> new CR, no?
# [16:58] <fantasai> We had a resolution to go to CR, but then we've got a major unsolved issue...
# [16:59] <Florian> I'd say publish a WD with all the fixes, and since it has wide review, call for a CR immediately after.
# [17:00] <Ms2ger> And here I thought flexbox was done
# [17:00] <fantasai> Ms2ger: The only piece of software that's done is TeX
# [17:00] <Ms2ger> It hasn't reached pi yet, has it?
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# [17:02] <fantasai> fair enough
# [17:02] <fantasai> We're still getting bug reports against 2.1; I don't anticipate Flexbox sorting itself out that fast either :)
# [17:02] <fantasai> Asymptotically approaching stable...
# [17:03] <fantasai> but never getting there is pretty accurate
# [17:03] <Florian> Is there anything horrible about temporarily going back to WD?
# [17:03] <fantasai> Mostly PR confusion
# [17:04] <Florian> Even if the WD lasts 1 day?
# [17:04] <fantasai> I'm pretty sure that the WD won't last 1 day.
# [17:04] <fantasai> Something will happen
# [17:04] <fantasai> and bugs will be filed
# [17:04] <fantasai> and the WD will last 7 months
# [17:06] * gsnedders gets reminded to file a bug against 2.1 :)
# [17:06] <Florian> Oh well. It looks like if we were on the new process, it would be an WD, not a CR. So stuck in LC or stuck in new WD, I don't think I really care that much
# [17:07] <fantasai> It would be a CR in the new process
# [17:07] <fantasai> because we wouldn't have had to drop back to LC to make fixes in the CR
# [17:07] <Florian> fair enough
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# [17:25] * fantasai scans through the list of flexbox issues and concludes that it's still not in a coherent enough state to be published
# [17:25] <fantasai> :/
# [17:26] <fantasai> I think my goal is going to be to get it into a state where dholbert thinks it's all correct, and then publish asap before he or biesi file more bugs :)
# [17:26] <fantasai> in this case it looks like a correction was wrong, so we should fix that before we republish
# [17:27] * glazou changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-04-22 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0316.html'
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# [17:27] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:27] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
# [17:27] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:28] <glazou> thank you RRSAgent, please bring me a _strong_ espresso now
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# [17:50] <glazou> fantasai: ping
# [17:50] <glazou> sorry
# [17:50] <glazou> Florian: ping
# [17:50] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:50] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:51] <glazou> wow, [IPcaller] called in 8 minutes early?
# [17:51] <Florian> glazou: yes?
# [17:51] <glazou> Florian: is item 1 on agenda still on the radar? Was added by peter last week
# [17:51] <Florian> glazou: Yes, it still needs discussion, but I am not sure a teleconf is ideal. might be easier at a f2f.
# [17:52] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [17:52] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [17:52] <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller]
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# [17:52] <glazou> Florian: limit it to a ten minutes thing today then
# [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:52] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
# [17:52] <Florian> glazou: right. Remind people what it's about, ask for feedback on the ML, if we can't solve it there, take it at the f2f
# [17:53] <glazou> exactly
# [17:53] <Florian> glazou: also, you have 4 topics under media queries, but the first one has been solved already
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# [17:53] <glazou> ok
# [17:53] <glazou> noted
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P4
# [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:55] <glazou> Zakim: [IPcaller] has johanneswilm
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# [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has johanneswilm
# [17:56] <Zakim> +johanneswilm; got it
# [17:56] <tgraham``> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
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# [17:57] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P27 is me
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# [17:57] <astearns> zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +astearns; got it
# [17:57] <zcorpan> Zakim: mute me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:57] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [17:57] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
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# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P36
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P36
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aabb
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [17:58] <zcorpan> zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:58] <antonp> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:58] <Florian> Zakim, I am aabb
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (22%), tgraham`` (28%), dauwhe (4%)
# [17:58] <Florian> (I think)
# [17:58] <Zakim> antonp, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (60%), tgraham`` (51%)
# [17:58] <dauwhe> Zakim, mute me
# [17:58] <Zakim> dauwhe should now be muted
# [17:58] <Zakim> +hober
# [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, mute tgraham``
# [17:59] <Zakim> tgraham`` should now be muted
# [17:59] <zcorpan> zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:59] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
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# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P41
# [17:59] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P41 is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:59] <bcampbell> Zakim, I am probably [IPCaller] but didn't see myself come in.
# [17:59] <Zakim> I don't understand you, bcampbell
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# [18:00] * zcorpan hello
# [18:00] <bcampbell> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +smfr
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# [18:01] <BradK> Zakim: aadd is me
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# [18:01] <dael> glazou: Let's start.
# [18:02] <dael> glazou: First thing, anything to add to the agenda?
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# [18:02] <BradK> Zakim, aadd is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +BradK; got it
# [18:02] <zcorpan> zakim, unmute me
# [18:02] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [18:02] * Bert echo!
# [18:02] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:02] <zcorpan> zakim, mute me
# [18:02] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:02] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (56%), zcorpan (18%), Florian (32%)
# [18:02] * zcorpan sorry
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# [18:02] <zcorpan> q+
# [18:02] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [18:02] <dael> Florian: I was saying I have a few more things, but since the agenda is full I can ping you to add them next week.
# [18:03] <zcorpan> zakim, unmute me
# [18:03] <dael> glazou: If you want to be sure they're added, drop an e-mail to plinss and myself
# [18:03] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisL
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# [18:03] <antonp> Zakim, ??P56 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:03] <dael> zcorpan: Next week I will bill away until mid-Aug.
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# [18:03] <zcorpan> zakim, mute me
# [18:03] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:03] <dael> s/bill/be
# [18:03] <antonp> Zakim, mute me
# [18:03] <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
# [18:03] <ChrisL> s/bill/be/
# [18:03] <dael> Topic: pre-wrap and White Space Processing Followup
# [18:03] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0386.html
# [18:03] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0386.html
# [18:03] <zcorpan> zakim, ack me
# [18:03] <Zakim> unmuting zcorpan
# [18:03] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:03] <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
# [18:03] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:03] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:04] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: Here's the e-mail. We discussed a while back, but I had one problem because some of what I had was only partly acurate.
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: Starting again, we had an interop problem with white-space pre-wrap. There are three behaviors out there and they all disagree.
# [18:04] <dael> Florian: In some cases IE disagrees with itself and does different things in text area and regular area.
# [18:05] <dael> Florian: Overall if you combine the properties you can't really control how thigns work. I think that's unfortunite. The mail explored who does what. I think there are a few useful behaviors using these prop. It would be nice to be able to switch between, but right now you can't do that with switching prop. We should aim for more interop
# [18:06] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure we can discuss on the phone call because I think we need to look at drawings. I'd like to encourage people to look on the ML and have discussion here high level on if interop is a desirable thing.
# [18:06] <fantasai> +1 to f2f
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: It can serve as a reminder for everyone to look at the e-mail and have it at the F2F
# [18:06] <dael> tantek: Is this errata?
# [18:06] <andrey-bloomberg> +1 for f2f
# [18:06] <glazou> GRRRRR @ echo
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: CSS 2 errata.
# [18:06] <zcorpan> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:06] <fantasai> s/CSS 2 /CSS3 Text/
# [18:07] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Florian (25%)
# [18:07] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure it needs to be new. We could prob get away with existing properties to describe it, but there's currently a lot of ambiguity. There's also sec violations. If you combine undefined, ambiguous, and violations you get all these behaviors.
# [18:07] <andrey-bloomberg> +1 for interop as well
# [18:07] <dael> Florian: Last time there was feedback from MS and Apple saying they didn't want to change, but given that there is no interop I'm not happy with that. I'd like to hear from the rest of the group on if they want progress.
# [18:07] * ChrisL audio quality will get worse once zakim goes away in July http://www.w3.org/2015/07/zakim.html
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: I'm happy to work on it but if impl don't want it they'll ignore it.
# [18:08] <dael> Florian: I'm a bit uncomforatble not wanting to change something that isn't interop. But if browser vendors don't want to change that's tricky.
# [18:08] <Bert> (Very good e-mail by florian, by still best to use a white board, I think... I don't like spaces that colapse to zero-width, b.t.w.)
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: Given that everyone is silent, we can work on it and people can obj.
# [18:08] <dbaron> I think interop is useful; these issues don't seem like the top priority for authors, but making simple changes seems like it could be valuable.
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: So look on my mail, I think I've worked out what everyone does, and I've prop alternatives on what we can do. I'd like feedback. I can do it on ML or bore everyone at the F2F.
# [18:09] * ChrisL would like to know why the browsers are not interested in interop here
# [18:09] <BradK> word-wrap-behavior: moz | ms | WebKit | blink
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I don't have tiem until then anyway.
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: So we'll revist when there's more input or the F2F
# [18:09] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0496.html
# [18:09] <dael> Topic: which spec for column-span: <integer>
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Do we have any implementors? Others than Presto?
# [18:09] * zcorpan BradK x-ua-compatible?
# [18:09] <ChrisL> do we have any *maintained* implementations?
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: This seems useful to me. Does Bloomburg have an impl of this?
# [18:10] <dael> andrey-bloomberg: I don't remember. Let me check.
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: I think it's great that Presto impl this, but we dropped it from multi-col and it ended in GCPM. If there's no interest in impl we should drop.
# [18:10] <Bert> Prince applies column-span: number to floats, I think.
# [18:11] * glazou is it only me on florian’s voice is completely cut?
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: Bloomberg has an impl. It was in a spec, but dropped b/c the spec was repurposed. It's unfortunate to drop when there's two impl, even if they're minor impl.
# [18:11] <glazou> s/on/or
# [18:11] * Bert can hear Florian OK
# [18:11] <dael> ??: This was in page floats. The only reason it was removed is there were many different def. and this seemed unrelated to page floats.
# [18:12] <dael> ??: So the discussion was if it should be in its own spec or if it should sit somewhere.
# [18:12] <astearns> s/??/johanneswilm/
# [18:12] <dael> Florian: I can start a multi-col level 4 while we wait for other things.
# [18:12] <andrey-bloomberg> just to clarify Bloomberg commits are going to chromium and hopefully upstream
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: The logical place is multi-col. If this was minor feature impl by a few minor things...it's great to document but layout features take a lot of work. If there's interest in impl this going forward we should have this
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: Bloomberg has this and would like to continubute, but that's hard without a spec
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: THis goes in multi-col, but that needs a lot of work and so you're volunteering to take on a layout spec.
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: I'm not volunteering to take on the whole spec. I can create a new level until someone is ready to take it on. I'd be fine with it going at the bottom of page floats.
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: If you want progress it needs to be in a multi-col spec and work on the interactions. If you want a place to copy it, there's a copy on TR. If no one is going to work on it we can get it out of the way. If you want to work on it you need to do it with all the layout interactions.
# [18:14] * TabAtkins Whoops, overslept. Will call in shortlyh.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I'm willing to work on it and the interaction with layout, but working on multi-col in the whole is more than I can take on. I can work on a feature, but not the entire module.
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I don't have a problem with you trying, but I want you to keep in mind that it would fit toether unless multi-col has more rigger.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I'm happy to keep it somewhere else, but dropping from all specs is a bad signal.
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I don't want it in page floats because it's not a page float. We drop it or put it in multi-col
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: That makes sense.
# [18:16] <SteveZ> +1 to Elika's position
# [18:16] <tantek> +1 fantasai
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: Are we comfortable with starting a new level of multi-col and I put that there?
# [18:16] * dauwhe +1 to put in multicol 2
# [18:16] <Bert> +1
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: Start an ED and put it there with an issue where the rest of multi-col has to go there.
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Is there agreement on that?
# [18:16] <johanneswilm> +1
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Objections?
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: Should I add the lvl 1 editors to level 2?
# [18:16] <dauwhe> s/Elika's/fantasai's/
# [18:17] * Joins: myles (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:17] <dael> RESOLVED: New ED for the next level of multi-col
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: So editors. Florian you'll be an editor?
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: I can be for that part, but not the whole spec. I'd like the previous editors to stick.
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: That was Hakon.
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: I think we have a resolution to add rossen
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: Since rossen isn't here, I suggest you start with just y ourself and we'll add new editors.
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: I can respond to comments, but I can't commit at lot fo time
# [18:18] <tantek> Note: W3C TAG is meeting in SF this week, as well as other conferences Fluent, and RSA.
# [18:18] <dael> RESOLVED: Add Florian for the time being
# [18:18] <dael> Topic: Media Queries
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: There's 3 remaining issues.
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: Do we have TabAtkins?
# [18:18] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0419.html
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: He's calling sortly.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> YOu will in *one sec*.
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: Let's wait for him.
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: src Parsing of FontFace Constuctor
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> Literally calling in now, waiting for zakim.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: jdaggett are you on?
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> ...that won't help. ^_^
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: dbaron you had an issue?
# [18:19] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0508.html
# [18:19] <Bert> )Somebody fixed it already)
# [18:19] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaee
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:19] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:19] <dael> dbaron: Didn't TabAtkins say he fixed it? I don't think it needs telecon time either way.
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: Media Queries
# [18:20] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0419.html
# [18:20] <dbaron> yes, tab said he fixed it in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0265.html
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: The first is this, raised by SimonSapin
# [18:20] <glazou> thanks dbaron
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: The spec is phrased in a way that req unbounded look ahead. It can be expressed equivellently. Rephrasisng to make it so would be possible, but would make the spec hard to read.
# [18:20] <SimonSapin> q+
# [18:20] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with rephrasing. We have the railroad diagrams to make it easier to read. I'm fine with gettig the grammar to point to better impl.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: I was worried about the prose afterwards.
# [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: We did make a similar change to paged media spec fot he same reason, but it's not clear if it's a req or a goal of css spec to not have look ahead or if that's jsut impl detail
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it is a strong goal. Given we did it with paged media, I'm fine with rephrasing it. It's fine.
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Let's give it a shot and if it gets horribly confusing we can back up.
# [18:22] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0514.html
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Worst case I put a not with an alternative approach that doesn't have the unbounded look ahead.
# [18:22] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Next is this.
# [18:23] * Joins: smfr_ (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: Currently the general enclosed parts of MQ work the same as @support. That's prob a mistake because @support returns false when it can't parse. That's a problem for MQ. It should have the same error handling where it invalidates the entire MQ
# [18:23] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:23] * smfr_ is now known as smfr
# [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: This matters because it adds a not opperator that can be used anywhere in MQ
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: [pondering noise]
# [18:24] * tantek lol
# [18:24] * zcorpan disguised fart
# [18:24] * ChrisL :)
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: Were you trying to make sure why you disagree? Do you have a reason to think it might be better the other way?
# [18:24] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: I recall us discussing this specific case where you not'ed a thing that was invalid and I don't recall the conclusion.
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: Back when you could only not the whole thing this wasn't as bad.
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this was when we added the boolen logic.
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: I don't recall that discussion, but I think MQ and @supports should be different here.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm provisionally okay with this. I'll find the old discussion and re-raise it if I find an issue.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: So shoudl we resolve, or wait for you??
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Resolve now. The arguement is good. If I find a reason why it's this way I'll re-open.
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: There is a special case for media type where if you don't recognize the type you're not that type.
# [18:27] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: Yeah, I'm not changing that. Just the enclosed part of the grammar.
# [18:27] <dael> SimonSapin: What's is the change?
# [18:27] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:27] <zcorpan> zakim, ??P0 is me
# [18:27] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:27] <zcorpan> zakim, mute me
# [18:27] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:27] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (10%), glazou (74%)
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Change the error handling so general enclosed stays as it is, if it matching the entire thing it invalidated the entire thing.
# [18:28] <dael> SimonSapin: Isn't that the same as others?
# [18:28] <dael> Florian: It is. Currently though it works as @supports.
# [18:28] <dael> SimonSapin: But changing the evolution would be the same thing as removing entirely I think. Error handling where if you don't match the grammar it's false.
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: I think you're right.
# [18:28] <dael> Florian: You're prob. right.
# [18:28] <SimonSapin> s/evolution/evaluation/
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: So lets jsut remove it.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: So lets say you have an unkown thing, and or and a known thing that's rigth. You want it to be true.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, I think so.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: That should work. We shouldn't throw out the entire MQ.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: With not it's not.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: General enclosed can falsify up to the nearest or
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: I agree with TabAtkins and fantasai
# [18:30] <zcorpan> "A media query that does not match the grammar in the previous section must be replaced by not all during parsing." http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries/#error-handling
# [18:30] * ChrisL thanks for the clarification it was dishes :)
# [18:30] * glazou ChrisL eheh
# [18:30] <SimonSapin> maybe or X = X; maybe and X = maybe; not maybe = maybe
# [18:30] <dbaron> Which of these are incompatible changes to media queries?
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: I believe that's what I was thinking of to look up. In that case let's talk about having general enclosed falsify to itself. A real syntax error with false the whole thing.
# [18:30] <dael> SimonSapin: WE have a tri-state logic.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. There is a bottom value.
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: So MQ right now only have and?
# [18:31] <SimonSapin> s/we/what if we/
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Correct.
# [18:31] * ChrisL while (MQ == !MQ) { confuse people };
# [18:31] <zcorpan> falser
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: I think we got the right behavior, but since we hadn't considered this before the call, you or I should proposed tot he ML and resolve next week.
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: No resolution for now, we'll discuss, if there's no obj we're good.
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: Next one is more involved.
# [18:32] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0017.html
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: TabAtkins do you want this one?
# [18:32] * ChrisL would like to get to the font media types one due to regrets for next 2 weeks if poss
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: It's if custom MQ can appear before @import and that whole thing.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: The def of custom MQ has no restrictions on where they're placed. Standard behaior. This means standard import rules do restrict them. It might make it difficult to make an import conditional on a custom MQ.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: That should still work. Never mind.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: You can have an import conditional on a custom MQ, but it might take time to start loading. There's the further question of how to handle loops, part where there's a custom MQ in a MQ block and they're referring to each other. You can't exclude from being inside MQ because at min a conditional import applies to this.
# [18:35] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: So, I believe the rules should be if a cycle is detected in MQ rules, if a custom MQ depends on one it containes then that MQ name gets tainted and all instances are invalid and undefined.
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: This is similar to the custom prop loop handling. If you get a loop in custom prop it kills it and you can't recover until the cascade is changed to remove the loop. That's true here.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: What's the case for making these conditional on anything?
# [18:36] * Quits: myles (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Being able to set up a set of variables on arbitary MQ is good and setting up MQ based on that is good. Like on narrow screens the relevant valus are foo and bar, but there are other relevent values on a bigger screen.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: Another thing you can do inside a conditional is custom @support.
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: Wait...okay...
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Producing and arbitrary large condition an wrapping it an an easy MQ name.
# [18:37] * glazou is suprised nobody has output a « disguised fart » on that one from Florian
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: oookay.
# [18:37] <ChrisL> fantasai: ookay (doubtfully)
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: Another thing from the ML is that we may want for preloader reasons to restrict them to only the top of the style sheet. That's not entirely orthoganal. WE can just say if they're nestedd they do nothing, but that's a fast way to pre-load.
# [18:38] * Joins: myles (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:38] * glazou ChrisL please stay on call, would like to discuss font MIME types after this topic
# [18:39] * ChrisL queues up http://www.w3.org/TR/WOFF2/#IMT
# [18:39] <tantek> meta--
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Yoav, who did a lot of work on the preloader for Blink, where it is fine for finding import urls, no one impl viewport parsing in preloader and her thinks that's a bad idea. custom MQ lie somewhere in the middle of those things. It's harder then a URL. My alt prop is we define a new meta value for HTML that lets you define a custom MQ up there that can be accessed by preloaders. Ones in style sheets are not.
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: So you keep the possibility of custom MQs.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah, they're not valid for things that require preloaders. You can still do it, but it'll eval to flase during the preloading stage.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: I'm comfortable with that. I suggest we try and resolve on allowing @import and @custom MQ in the same place.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: And we have when you have a loop in custom media you invalidate the entire thing.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I can poke the HTML group for that.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Because we can do that we shouldn't block the rest.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: I'm not 100% sold on all these things. Can we do a simplier set? You can do custom media rules, but if you do them they come before @import.
# [18:41] <tantek> this sounds like it needs more thought
# [18:41] <tantek> f2f topic?
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: You still need to define how loops work because you can define media attributes. Since we have do deal with it, I'm not comfortable cutting this off from authors.
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: We can't resolve on the call. This is complex.
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: I think TabAtkins and I agree, so we'll make a complete prop on the ML
# [18:42] <dael> action Florian to write a proposal for the mailing list
# [18:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-681 - Write a proposal for the mailing list [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-04-29].
# [18:42] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0027.html
# [18:42] <dael> action TabAtkins to write a proposal for the mailing list
# [18:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-682 - Write a proposal for the mailing list [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2015-04-29].
# [18:42] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:42] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:42] <dael> Topic: Font MIME types
# [18:43] <dael> ChrisL: Anne is correct. We do this because when @fontface was first discussed we wanted a new top level media type. Other hated it and we gave up and had this hokey string instead. One one hand I'm concerned about font media types. However, fonts are supposed to be in the registration tree, but they're not and the web ignores this.
# [18:43] <zcorpan> or use text/plain, text/html, application/octet-stream....
# [18:44] <dael> ChrisL: The font group has put waff2 and has defined the whole tree as a new font-* which answers the question of where a definitive list should be.
# [18:44] <tantek> +1 for font/
# [18:44] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/WOFF2/#IMT
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: She's not wanting all the changes in CSS, they just thought CSS was a place for a definition.
# [18:45] <dael> ChrisL: Having it in CSS3 Fonts is a place, but I'm pointing out there is a spec where it is. I'm not convinced we need to register these things, but they've decided to do that.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: So Anne wanted to know where to put a list of font types. So I guess making that spec the answer is enough?
# [18:45] <dael> ChrisL: Yes.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: Did you contribute to the thread?
# [18:45] <dael> ChrisL: No, but I can.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Not the font-* types aren't sufficent for the request. The Google analysis has several not listed fonts with decent usege. Where is this going?
# [18:46] <dael> ChrisL: It's a WOFF 2 appendix.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't have application-* types.
# [18:46] <dael> ChrisL: We can add that.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Full list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0224.html
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what I wanted to check.
# [18:46] <dael> ChrisL: I just wanted to have discussion here.
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: So out of scope, forward to fonts working group
# [18:47] <dael> ChrisL: Yep.
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: We have 10 minutes and 4 things on the agenda.
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Hebrew counts is easy. I'm fine adding that impl can do large Hebrew if they want to.
# [18:47] <Florian> +1
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: 'm fine with that.
# [18:48] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0117.html
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: So is there objections?
# [18:48] <Bert> (no objection)
# [18:48] <dael> RESOLVED: Add that people may support larger Hebrew counters if they want
# [18:48] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Font MIME type registration is out-of-scope for CSSWG, FontsWG has a (partial) list, forwarding issue to them
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: Do we have someone from LG on the call?
# [18:49] <andrey-bloomberg> +1
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: We need a resolution to re-pub counter styles CR
# [18:49] <Florian> +1
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: Okay, objections?
# [18:49] <astearns> +1
# [18:49] <dauwhe> +1
# [18:49] <zcorpan> +1
# [18:49] <dael> Bert: No objection.
# [18:49] <tantek> +1
# [18:49] <dael> RESOLVED: Re-publish Counter Styles CR with the above addition
# [18:49] <dael> Topic: Ruby inlinize algo
# [18:49] <fantasai> Tab, don't forget to add to blow away the changes list and replace it with the change above :)
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I was asking fantasai if she had comments. It's relevent to other cases.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: I need to dig deeper into this.
# [18:50] <dael> topic: ::flex-line
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: We might want to consider it for a future level of flexbox.
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree.
# [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: Definitely not adding it now.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: So that's what we can do without LG. Anything for the remaining minutes?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: I have more, but don't remember length.
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: Okay. Anything else?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Just sent a mail where we have a naming collision about the default value.
# [18:51] <tantek> yay. cursor: default; vs. *: default
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: When was that added to cursor?
# [18:51] <dael> tantek: CSS2.
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: And default was reserved in CSS2.
# [18:52] * astearns that can't be that long - it's just one version number behind
# [18:52] <ChrisL> since the DAWN of TIME
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. Okay.
# [18:52] <glazou> astearns: tss tss ;-)
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: It's in the font section.
# [18:52] <tantek> time to dig through CSS2 WDs :P
# [18:53] <ChrisL> i wouldn't worry about using values we haven't reserved
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I can think of 3 options. One is you can't use global default on cursor. That would be unfortunate. We can rename the global. Or we can create a horrible special value like 'default i mean it'
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: The default isn't arrow for historical reasons, right?
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: Yeah, but it's too late to rename.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: So anyone have a better idea?
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: I'm sure we're going to hate all the ideas
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: Lest worst is cursor doesn't get the global default for now.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: What about later?
# [18:54] <astearns> +1 to tantek's position
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: You worry when there's demand.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: The default isn't supported by anyone now. If we rename now we don't have a problem later.
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: And not putting a special case in the code.
# [18:55] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: Sounds like research is needed about applying default to something else. For the global default name. We need to research the bikeshedding.
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: That's the least unattractive option. We need to see what's been used and what's free on the ML.
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: Can bikeshed figure that out?
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't know literally allthe properties because some specs aren't in bikeshed.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Who will do the research.
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's suggest things on the ML. Research is pretty easy.
# [18:56] <Bert> (Maybe replace by two values: user and ua, to reset to user style and UA style resp.)
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: One down side is that default has been reserved for authors as well, but nothing else has so we may conflict with author names.
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: It's generally unlikely. There's only a few places authors can use custom names so I don't htink we'll infringe.
# [18:56] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: Let's try that on the ML
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Let's move it to the ML.
# [18:56] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:57] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [18:57] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:57] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:57] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:57] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:57] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:57] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [18:57] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:57] <dael> glazou: Thank you very much and talk to you next week.
# [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:57] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aacc
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: 'default' currently resets to the user level when used in author sheets, and to the UA level when used in user sheets.
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# [18:57] <Zakim> -tgraham``
# [18:57] * fantasai is now wondering if we need to rename 'default' to 'unset' and 'unset' to 'reset'
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't think there's any reason to let the author explicitly reset down to UA, skipping the user styles.
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# [18:57] <SimonSapin> fantasai, isn’t unset shipping?
# [18:58] <Bert> That's my intuition, too, but I'm just brainstorming...
# [18:58] <fantasai> SimonSapin: probably. And probably the people using it don't know the difference :)
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and "unset" still works fine for its current name - it unsets *everything*.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:58] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:58] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, dael, johanneswilm, tgraham``, +1.415.832.aaaa, zcorpan, astearns, dauwhe, antonp, +1.479.764.aabb, dbaron, Florian, hober, +1.631.398.aacc, SimonSapin,
# [18:58] <Zakim> ... tantek, bcampbell, [Bloomberg], Bert, +1.650.571.aadd, smfr, SteveZ, fantasai, BradK, ChrisL, +1.281.305.aaee, TabAtkins
# [18:58] <tantek> What TabAtkins and Bert said.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> But yeah, I'll bet some people using "unset" are expecting it to give UA defaults. ^_^
# [18:58] <ChrisL> dael, there wasn't a resolution minuted for the "out of scope, delegate to webfonts WG" but I think we did agree to that
# [18:58] <tantek> in addition, *allowing* the author to skip user styles goes against our design principles
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# [18:59] <ChrisL> could you insert such a resolution in the minutes? or do we need to discuss again and (re)resolve?
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# [18:59] <zcorpan> 'ua-default' (with same semantics as now; people don't know or care about user styles)
# [19:00] <tantek> ChrisL all I saw was "fantasai: So out of scope, forward to fonts working group" - which sounded like consensus on the call
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# [19:00] <ChrisL> and I see dael has quit
# [19:00] <tantek> but no explicit RESOLVED from the chair
# [19:00] <tantek> perhaps just post that to the mailing list asking if the chairs could declare a consensus on it per the call?
# [19:00] <ChrisL> i heard agreement from daniel but would like it clearer
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# [19:01] <ChrisL> yeah
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# [20:53] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, I was thinking of a name along those lines.
# [20:56] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin, Florian: <ident> should be defined by V&U, ideally. It's not defined by Syntax because it's not a syntactic construct; there can potentially be things which aren't <ident-token> which are <ident> (such as attr(), theoretically, but we rejected the "keyword" type for lack of use-case)
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# [20:57] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Agree on republishing Flexbox.
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# [22:20] <cbiesinger__> fantasai: sorry that I'm filing flexbox bugs so late in the process
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# [23:07] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Better than filing them never!
# [23:15] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: do you mean <ident> but not <custom-ident>?
# [23:29] <TabAtkins> Both, probably, but I havent given it much thought.
# [23:31] <Ms2ger> cbiesinger, eh, ignore process, file bugs when you find them
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> That too.
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> Process is self-inflicted pain.
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 23 00:00:00 2015

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