/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-04-29 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 29 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [03:46] * plinss changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-04-29 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0392.html'
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# [17:04] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:04] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
# [17:04] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:06] <hyojin> is this the right place to have a conf call of css wg?
# [17:06] <Florian> hyojin: yes
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# [17:07] <hyojin> Florian: thanks :)
# [17:07] <Florian> hyojin: We will be talking by phone, and at the same time taking minutes in real time, and having side discussions here
# [17:08] <hyojin> okay. I'll join the conf call by phone on time.
# [17:09] <Florian> hyojin: By the way, very sorry about not having sent feedback about the rounded display specification yet, I've been meaning to do it for quite some time, but haven't been able to prioritize it until now.
# [17:09] <Florian> hyojin: I am reviewing it now, and have already collected feedback on the media queries part.
# [17:09] <Florian> hyojin: still need to do the rest.
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# [17:12] <hyojin> ah, I sincerely appreciate your review. I need some visual emoticons :-)
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# [17:19] <glazou> hello hyojin
# [17:19] <glazou> same thing here, super busy with code
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# [17:34] <hyojin> I'm okay. Thanks, daniel.
# [17:34] <hyojin> I'm a complete novice in the css wg, so please let me know the process or the guidance to enhance the css-round-display spec :)
# [17:36] <Florian> hyojin: I think you've done very well until now. Now you just need to keep bringing your specification and its issues to the attention of the other members.
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# [17:37] * glazou confirms
# [17:37] <Florian> hyojin: preferably in small chunks, as that's easier to discuss
# [17:40] <hyojin> I understood the meaning of your words. I will do that from now on.
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# [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +82.26.91.2.aaaa
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Florian
# [17:58] <tgraham> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P28
# [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, ??P28 is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:00] <Zakim> +astearns
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aabb
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is hyojin
# [18:00] <Zakim> +hyojin; got it
# [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
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# [18:01] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (19%), glazou (44%)
# [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:01] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:02] <glazou> sigh. http://www.w3.org/2015/07/zakim.html
# [18:02] <Zakim> +MikeMiller
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# [18:02] <bcampbell> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
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# [18:02] * glazou someone destroying a lego bridge ?
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# [18:02] <alex_antennahouse> I think I'm the last IPcaller
# [18:02] <bcampbell> I was, hate legos
# [18:02] * glazou bcampbell tsss, tsss
# [18:02] <dael> zakim, IPcaller is alex_antennahouse
# [18:02] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
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# [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, mute me
# [18:04] <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:04] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P1 is me.
# [18:04] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:04] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [18:04] <TabAtkins> Ah, good, this is one of the alternating weeks that Zakim chooses to recognize my number.
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
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# [18:05] <hyojin> It's very curious about Zakim. This conf call is first to me.
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:06] <TabAtkins> hyojin: Zakim is one of our three bots. It's the one that runs the phones.
# [18:06] * Bert_ zakim, ??P10 is me
# [18:06] * Zakim +Bert_; got it
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.301.aacc
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Anything to add?
# [18:07] <dael> Florian: I have one.
# [18:07] <Florian> s/Florian/Rossen/
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: Just an update about the Houdini meeting in August.
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Anybody else?
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> hyojin: We also have trackbot, which tracks Actions that are assigned to people, and both RRSAgent and CSSWG_LogBot which are logging the channel.
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:08] <dael> bcampbell: I am going to NY as long as we can talk about some of the things we spoke about earlier with Flexbox. I'd like to know who to speak to about the agenda for the NYC and if we can set aside some time for the a11y and flexbox.
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Generally for a F2F there's the wiki and you can feel free to edit and add topics and we schedule at the meeting.
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:08] <tantek> zakim, ??p17 is me
# [18:08] * fantasai has having technical difficulties
# [18:08] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:08] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:08] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:09] * glazou will not be able to attend the paris meeting :(
# [18:09] <fantasai> WHAT
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: Mozilla has agreed to host us and the meeting will take place Fri and Sat following CSS with ends on Thursday. I don't have a calendar but I believe that's Aug 27 and 28. So please, there is a wiki set up so if you haven't please sign up. That's about it.
# [18:09] * glazou being far away from paris
# [18:09] * fantasai :(
# [18:09] <dbaron> https://wiki.css-houdini.org/planning/paris-2015
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: Any questions?
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# [18:09] <dbaron> It's August 28-29.
# [18:10] <glazou> LOL
# [18:10] <dael> [off record]
# [18:10] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:10] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:10] * dauwhe we're not very good at alphabetization in the wiki
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# [18:11] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:11] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: First two items on the agenda were resolved.
# [18:11] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0064.html
# [18:11] <dael> Topic: rounded displays and flexbox.
# [18:11] * fantasai will take recommendations for new cell phones.... >_<;;
# [18:11] * glazou maybe hyojin could explain his proposal first
# [18:11] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm mildlyopposed to doing new rounded display stuff. I want to wait for everything else to catch up and exist. Especially for expansions to flexbox which would be complicated.
# [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:11] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:11] <glazou> q+
# [18:11] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen: Why would you assume these would be in the current flexbox draft?
# [18:12] <Florian> q+
# [18:12] * Zakim sees glazou, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P6
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: They don't have to obv. but then we're working further into the future than we'd like.
# [18:12] <dauwhe> Zakim, mute me
# [18:12] <Zakim> dauwhe should now be muted
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# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P8
# [18:12] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P8 is me
# [18:13] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: Kinda preventing or slowing the work of rounded in favor of existing flex or grid, I don't feel I'm okay with that. I think it's worthwhile to keep in mind rounded displays as we make progress and close on flex and grid witht he mind where we're not preventing anything for rounded completely
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: However, I don't want to delay these specs for rounded.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: This is a surprise to me. We didn't let hyojin go first so he can explain why this is a good match. I'd like to hear hyojin.
# [18:14] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:14] <Florian> q+
# [18:14] * Zakim sees glazou, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <dael> hyojin: I'm pleased to meet you. I see the flexbox spec, I think it is related to round display. I'm wondering is it right to progress on finding round display now.
# [18:14] <glazou> Zakim, ack me
# [18:14] <Zakim> unmuting glazou
# [18:14] <Zakim> I see Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:14] <dael> hyojin: I don't know about hte progress of flexbox.
# [18:14] * glazou notes that another major vendor announced rounded displays this week : samsung...
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I think exploring how flexbox and rounded work together in better ways is worth exploring. We can't do that in current flexbox, but the rounded display module can have an exporatory section for flexbox and in that case when things become more settled we can put it into flexbox level 2. It's good to explore these things and to see if these settings you're prop solve the problems.
# [18:15] * Florian saw that too. Happy that LG is leading the standardisation
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: If we get to a point where we're ready to add to flexbox we can start a level 2
# [18:16] <dael> hyojin: If it's reasonable to progress, I can desc properties or technology. I can prepare those things. I don't want to delay flexbox spec progress.
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# [18:16] <tantek> q?
# [18:16] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> In general, I'm mildly opposed to new display modes in general ("round flexbox" is effectively something new compared to "flexbox"), as I think we shouldn't just focus on custom layout, and *then* only develop new layout modes that are proven to be popular in practice.
# [18:17] <plinss> ack florian
# [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <tantek> was going to say the same thing about polar coordinates and flexing. Thanks Florian :)
# [18:18] <Florian> q-
# [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:18] <tantek> q+
# [18:18] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:18] * glazou wonders if rounded displays couldn’t be an extension of clip only
# [18:18] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:18] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:19] <fantasai> tantek++
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> s/shouldn't just focus/should just focus/
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> hyojin: I agree that Flexbox l2 is a good place to start thinking about rounded display.
# [18:21] <tantek> would be nice to see a separate draft that documents diagrams and use-cases of the desired design effects
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Florian: I agree with tantek that seeing diagrams or use-cases would be good. I'm not sure it shoudl be a draft yet; maililng list or wiki would b emore appropriate. But regardless, having some examples would be very interesting.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> plinss: Agreed.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> hyojin: Okay.
# [18:21] <tantek> and that can better inform our discussions
# [18:21] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:21] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:21] <tantek> q-
# [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Topic: @media not
# [18:21] <tantek> (and yes - format draft/wiki/email is up to author)
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> Florian: On the call it seemed like a good idea to have 3-valued logic to deal with unknown media features or general-enclosed.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> Florian: On the ML, though, we realized there are two different types of 3-valued logics we can use - a "maybe" or a "bottom".
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> Florian: "maybe" makes more sense, but has a greater chance of breaking backwards compat.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> Florian: Tab also proposed a 4-valued logic with both values, but it's probably too complex.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Agree that it's too complex.
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Florian: I'd prefer to go with "maybe"; it's nicer, and I think the compat risk, while it exists, is moderate.
# [18:23] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:23] * fantasai is confused, but will be satisfied if dbaron thinks the proposal is sane
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Florian: But if browsers disagree, then we should use "bottom".
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# [18:25] <TabAtkins> Florian: The difference between "maybe" and "bottom" is that if you have "(false-thing) and (maybe-thing)", it's false. If you have "(false-thing) and (bottom-thing)", it's bottom.
# [18:25] * tantek and I thought tri-state logic was bad.
# [18:25] * dael thinks I'm back. The whole campus is apperently having connectivity issues.
# [18:25] * TabAtkins sees you, dael.
# [18:26] <dael> SimonSapin: False and unknown being unknown is safer for backwards compat. but flase and unknown beng false is better for boolean
# [18:26] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Florian/
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: false and unknown is unknown is bottom. Other is maybe. Maybe makes sense to me.
# [18:26] <dael> SimonSapin: But it's less backwards compat.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: The ones that were problems, in MQ 3 semeatintic it became not all. In the new semenatics the prefix would be a maybe or bottom, then a not screen and when screen is false when printing you have the same problem with a big not negating everything.
# [18:27] <fantasai> The example was "not screen and (-webkit-foo)"
# [18:28] <fantasai> Which would evaluate to true when printing
# [18:28] <fantasai> But is currently thrown out by non-webkit browsers
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: When false and bottom equals bottom it stays false when existing which matches MW3 semantics. It looks to be very very rare. In order to get it you have to have a MQ starting with not and a prefix thing ending with it. It happened twice in the database we looked at
# [18:28] * fantasai zakim, who is here?
# [18:28] * Zakim sees on the phone: hyojin, dael, tgraham, Florian, glazou (muted), plinss, astearns, +1.631.398.aabb, bcampbell, MikeMiller, alex_antennahouse, smfr, antonp (muted), hober, dauwhe
# [18:28] * Zakim ... (muted), adenilson, TabAtkins, [Bloomberg], Bert_, +1.425.301.aacc, dbaron, tantek (muted), SteveZ, fantasai, ??P6, SimonSapin
# [18:28] * Zakim sees on irc: dael, vollick, quadcore, myles, SteveZ, andrey-bloomberg, adenilson, kwkbtr, smfr, tantek, bcampbell, alex_antennahouse, AH_Miller, antenna, antonp, myakura, glazou,
# [18:28] * Zakim ... hyojin, dbaron, Zakim, dauwhe, Florian, plh, tgraham, CSSWG_LogBot, JohnMcLear, Bert_, gsnedders, shepazu, logbot, mvujovic______, abucur___, alexmog, rego, cabanier, shane,
# [18:28] * Zakim ... slightlyoff, JonathanNeal_, hober, krit, krijnhoetmer, projector, timeless, heycam|away, stryx`, astearns, lmclister______, paul___irish, SimonSapin, robertknight_clo,
# [18:28] * Zakim ... mihnea_____
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Unless somebody feels bad with this I'd like to go with maybe and allow if nec to change to bottom later. I think the compat risk is small enough we don't have to worry.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: That makes sense to me, I'd like dbaron take on it.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: Objections?
# [18:29] <dbaron> I don't really have an opinion (right now, anyway)
# [18:29] <dael> RESOLVED: use maybe semantics
# [18:29] * dael TabAtkins: can you make that resolution clearer?
# [18:29] * fantasai will
# [18:29] <dael> Topic: animation end events
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: If you have a running animation and ut a none it stops, but does it throw and end. Currently browsers don't. Later if we add animation cancel events that will change the subtree. Right now no events get fired when an animation stops due to a display: none
# [18:30] <dael> smfr: I agree with that.
# [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: In media queries, use boolean maybe semantics to handle unsupported syntax, i.e. false and unknown = false. (Re-evaluate if this ends up with back-compat problems.)
# [18:30] <andrey-bloomberg> no issues
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: I agree as well, though I have a follow up.
# [18:31] * Quits: kwkbtr (~kwkbtr@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> s/use maybe semantics/use "maybe" semantics for unknown media features/
# [18:31] <dael> RESOLVED: No animation events when subtrees are distroyed.
# [18:31] <astearns> +1 to new diff draft
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: Are people okay with starting the next level of transitions and animations where we add in cancel events?
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: Go ahead
# [18:31] <glazou> +1 to what dbaron said
# [18:31] <dbaron> transitionstart, transitioncancel, animationcancel
# [18:32] <dbaron> (and as a delta spec)
# [18:32] <dael> RESOLVED: Start a next level of transitions with dbaron as an editor
# [18:32] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:32] <Zakim> - +1.425.301.aacc
# [18:32] <dael> Topic: /deep/ combinator
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: In the recent shadowDOM meeting there was discussion on simplifying. One of the conclusions was the ability for CSS to easily reach into shadows like this is prob bad. They resolved to remove that combinator. The other option is removing from dynamic profile. A few people prefered that. So either removing it or just having it in the static profile.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure if we need to resolve, it might be better to let webapps decide, but we need to be aware.
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: That's why I added it to the agenda, so have discussion.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Related there are simplifications to shadoDOM to make it a bit easier.
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: Other thoughts or opinions on shadow combinators?
# [18:34] <glazou> +1
# [18:34] <dael> tantek: It was a strong concensus to drop /deep/ I'd rather that then keep in static.
# [18:34] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:34] <astearns> s/tantek/hober/
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: I tend to agree. Ther ewas discussion in TAG and the opinion is people wnat a better modle to desc the style instead of reaching into the DOM. It might be dangerous to keep this.
# [18:35] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:35] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:35] * tantek lol sounds like hober
# [18:35] * tantek or vice-versa that is
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: The reason people argued for it is there's nothing preventing you from walking th DOM manually. THe point it to make that unnec. It doesn't expose worse information, it just makes it poss to do from the query selector. We can discuss wthat with webaps
# [18:35] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:35] <Zakim> -??P1
# [18:35] <dael> Topic: splitting the ontainment value
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: So no resolution on that?
# [18:36] * glazou suggests deeply removing the whole shadow dom :-)
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not seeeking a resolution.
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Did you want one fantasai ?
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: If we have consensus I think we should resolve
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: I think we have it on dropping from the dynamic profile.
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: So maybe mark it as an issue.
# [18:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop /deep/ from dynamic profile, add issue wrt dropping it from static profile
# [18:37] <dael> RESOLVED: drop /deep/ from fast profile and record an issue about keeping it in the static profile
# [18:37] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:37] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P1 is me.
# [18:37] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:37] <smfr> url?
# [18:37] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: At the extensible web summit we have a nice session about the containment value. It came out that the issue in the spec where we should maybe split is something we should address. What I prop is to split it into the 3 things it does.
# [18:37] <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-containment/
# [18:38] <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0364.html
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Layout containment, the element doesn't pay attention to children in terms of layout so nothing can cause extra layout. Paint contianment so you have a clipping boundry. Style containment which is a couple of styles that can influence the rest of the document can no longer do that. The effects of things in the style element can't effec the rest of the doc like counter incements.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: These are the three general areas that the prop addressed. I split this to three keywords, layout, paint and style and keep strict keyword to turn on all three of them. If you need to be flexible in some ways you can just turn on what you're okay wiht.
# [18:39] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
# [18:39] <SimonSapin> q+
# [18:39] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <dbaron> q+ to comment on the name style
# [18:39] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: First you say split everything in the sec, but it doens't have layout cont. right now and I really want that.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: That was an oversight on my part. It'll be there.
# [18:40] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: For paint containment, it does 3 things. Do the same as overflow: hidden, don't allow scrolling, estabilish a containing block for abspos and fixedpos
# [18:40] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't do anything with scrolling
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: If you deifne the way you have you can get clip overflow without the ability to scroll with containment paint and overflow visable. What you don't get the ability to do is containment paint overflow viable but still be able to use things like text visable. I would suggest add to overflow something that does the same as clip but with no scrolling.
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: So that first if you use containment paint and overflow is visable it will do clip but will allow you to resize and other properties. It also allows you to do this without estabilishing a new containing block.
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: This all makes sense. I am okay with this. So add an overflow: clipped and have overflow visable if it's doing paint compute to overflow: clip as well.
# [18:42] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:42] * fantasai suspects Mozilla has a clip value already
# [18:42] <SimonSapin> unmute fail
# [18:42] * fantasai lol
# [18:43] <dael> smfr: Is containment supposed to effect other prop?
# [18:43] <Zakim> +??P8
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: It has some effects, but not the computed values.
# [18:43] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P8 is me
# [18:43] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:43] <Florian> q+
# [18:43] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, dbaron, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:43] * glazou #simonsapin { content: content(#smfr) } ?
# [18:43] <dael> smfr: In other cases we say it doesn't effect computed values. I'm worried about prop that override other properties.
# [18:43] <hyojin> Zakim, mute me
# [18:43] <Zakim> hyojin should now be muted
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: This is why we track computed values on the wiki to see if we introduce a circularity. So far we haven't.
# [18:44] <plinss> ack SimonSapin
# [18:44] * Zakim sees dbaron, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:44] <dael> SimonSapin: When we split things between style and layout in paint, is it something that's related to the feature, or just the current impl do things ina way?
# [18:44] * Rossen is now known as Rossen_away
# [18:44] <andrey-bloomberg> just my 2 cents - this is quite useful from developer perspective
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Layout and paint are completely different thigns. That's not impl specific. They are usefully independant. We can come up with use cases that want one or the other. Style containment, I don't think it has an indep. life, but having it sep works better for the overall design.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: I have a hard time thinking of containment style without layout, but I'm okay with it sep
# [18:46] <dael> SimonSapin: It's not the same as containment, but we think of layout tranistion being diff then paint. That's impl spec though because when you animate the top property it requires layout, but some times you can do it in the thread.
# [18:46] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: The general def of layout vs paint is somewhat impl specific, but in the case of contain they're different.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: And the def. isn't abig?
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: Correct.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: From fantasai she says that she things moz has this, and she's correct. They have this.
# [18:46] <plinss> ack dbaron
# [18:46] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to comment on the name style
# [18:46] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <Florian> q-
# [18:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> s/abig/ambiguous/
# [18:47] <Florian> -moz-hidden-unscrollable
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: When I saw the split prop I thought style was ref to selectors so I'm not sure the name gives a good sense of what it's containing. I wouldn't want something to ref to selectors.
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Agreed.
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: I don't have a better idea.
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I can put in style isn't an ideal name and we can bikeshed on the ML.
# [18:47] * dbaron can't hear anybody else
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Do we want a resolution on overflow: clip?
# [18:48] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:48] <dbaron> ok, that's a crazy bug with Zakim
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: I think we can resolve to do layout contianment, split into three layours, and have overflow: clip
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: So obj to those proposed resolutions?
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen: Can you repeat?
# [18:48] <Florian> s/three layouts/3 values/
# [18:48] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: One is to make sure the containment spec does layout containment. Next is split the values of containment as desc by TabAtkins. Last is to have effects of containment paint go through overflow: clip
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen: Question: in overflow clip in case where clipping element isn't the containing block, will the effects also clip?
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: Overflow: clip visulally does the same as overflow hidden, but you don't get access to scrolling.
# [18:50] <dael> Rossen: In hidden your fixed element is still a fixed element and effects layout of the root element because there may be scrollbars.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: Overflow: clip alone doesn't change that, but if you do containment: paint it switches.
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: One of the main reasons is to invoke the machinery that relies on overflow being non visable.
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: When you do containment plaint you want overflow: clip and the containing block.
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen: And a stacking context. So this is kind of the god property.
# [18:51] <dbaron> That sounds pretty different from overflow:-moz-hidden-unscrollable, which is otherwise like visible except it clips overflow
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: So overflow: clip does the same as hidden minus the scrolling and the rest of what you need for paint goes through the containment: paint property.
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen: Sounds reasonable.
# [18:52] <dael> smfr: It need some wordiing for if you try and scroll and if you transition to clip do you snap to the top
# [18:52] <fantasai> it should be equivalent to overflow: visible, except you don't draw outside the box
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know if anything in visable says you can't scroll, but htat's what it does. If it doens't we'll make up language and you can reset to your scroll positino. It'll be immediate.
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: It'll be exactly like visable but you don't draw outside the box.
# [18:53] <Florian> dbaron: overflow:clipped is the same as overflow:-moz-hidden-unscrollable as far as I can tell. But containment:paint invokes this PLUS the rest (containing blocks, stacking context)
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: objections?
# [18:53] <andrey-bloomberg> all for it
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: To any other resolutions.
# [18:53] <dbaron> Florian, I think they're different w.r.t. establishing a new BFC.
# [18:53] <dael> RESOLVED: do layout contianment, split into containment three pieces as per TabAtkins proposal and have overflow: clip
# [18:54] <dael> Topic: css 3 ui
# [18:54] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0193.html
# [18:54] * tantek dael I just noticed dael: tantek: Correct. 09:45am <-- that wasn't me.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: There aren't many. Let's start with this.
# [18:54] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:54] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:54] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:54] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (5%), Florian (94%)
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: When you spec an image for a curosr you can spec the coordinates. This is obvious when you point to a bitmap, but since it also lets you do gradients and image-set it's less obvious how coordinates work. So if you have different resolutions you can spec one set of coordinates. We need to define how it would work in all kinds of images.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: For gradients they don't have a size, the unit would be what gets you in the middle. The way I prop we solve it is we define the cooredinate space of every possible type and refer to that.
# [18:56] <tantek> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:56] * glazou some breaks glasses after the lego bridge?
# [18:56] <dauwhe> Zakim, who is mixing a drink?
# [18:56] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
# [18:56] <Zakim> tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (10%), smfr (49%), Florian (54%), SteveZ (15%), plinss (4%)
# [18:56] * glazou dauwhe much nicer option :-)
# [18:56] <dael> smfr: If you set a repeting linear grad as your cursor image what happens?
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: The definition is impl specfic.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: This is defined so the UA decides how big the painting area should be. The UA defines and then you have a size and coordinates, but you don't know what those coordinates are. I suggest tht 50 is right in the middle.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: Currently the spec says these coordintes are in the coordinate space but we don't define what the coordinate space is, but I think we should do that.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: For these mroe challenging image types, do we have support?
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I think we ahve support or impl.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: My understanding is we don't for things like gradients. I don't think there's browsers that support.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I think for image-set someone does or has intent.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: I don't think...image-set is new for browsrs in general. I'd be surprised if they support them for cursors.
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: I think someone said they want to but havenn't done it.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:59] <dael> tantek: We might want to capture informative guideance, but I think normative in CSS3, i would oppose.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> ...huh. Zakim suddenly went silent, then disconnected me.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Eh, not worth calling back in.
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: Now we have wording that doesn't mean anything we say it's in the coordinate spac.e I just suggest we defer to image values.
# [19:00] <dael> tantek: That I agree with. I resisted specifiying in css3 ui
# [19:00] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: We might want a note in css3 ui, but not define. We might want a note on image-set.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> I'd actually prefer we allow %s, and define that integers, when used on an image without coordinates, all refer to the start/start corner.
# [19:00] * fantasai and Tab
# [19:00] <dael> tantek: That's reasonable. If we have ar easonable note that reflects what' going to happen. Who edits image?
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: TabAtkins and fantasai
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I think speec coordinates makes sense.
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: Will you take an action?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: We can to edit the spec, but we have the same problems in other places. We can take an action to see what SVG is up to.
# [19:01] <fantasai> s/SVG/Media Fragments/
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: We need to define it.
# [19:01] <fantasai> s/it/ for CSS formats anyway/
# [19:02] <dael> action fantasai to edit CSS IMage and specify how to determine the coordinate system of the image
# [19:02] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Edit css image and specify how to determine the coordinate system of the image [on Elika Etemad - due 2015-05-06].
# [19:02] <dael> Florian: There are some values where it's not obvious for what it should be, but we can get vocab quickly even if thebahaviors is in the air. We can anchor to the right terms.
# [19:03] <dael> tantek: And now we can put a note in css 3 ui to check that draft for details.
# [19:03] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [19:03] <dael> plinss: It sounds like a plan
# [19:03] <Zakim> -??P6
# [19:03] <dael> Florian: So a note for now in css 3 ui and text is added to image.
# [19:03] <dael> fantasai: for x and y can it take %
# [19:03] <dael> Florian: Only numbers.
# [19:04] <dael> fantasai: It might make sense to spec as % anyone esp if you have multi resolution, esp if you have pixel values.
# [19:04] <fantasai> s/spec as/add/
# [19:04] <dael> plinss: We don't have time to discuss it, but I have a followup on why we don't allow any lengths.
# [19:04] <tantek> short answer is: current support
# [19:04] <glazou> bye
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert_
# [19:04] * Quits: andrey-bloomberg (~andrey-bloomberg@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:04] <Zakim> -astearns
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:04] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:04] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:04] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:04] <dael> plinss: We're at the end of the week. Thanks everyone, talk to you next week.
# [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:04] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:04] <Zakim> -tantek
# [19:04] * Parts: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak)
# [19:04] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aabb
# [19:04] <Florian> tantek: for the other css-ui
# [19:04] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 31.6.0/20150325203137]")
# [19:04] <Florian> tantek: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0328.html
# [19:04] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:05] <Zakim> -tgraham
# [19:05] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:05] <fantasai> tantek: I'm not so sure we need <length>, but I think <percentage> would've been more useful than <integer>. Maybe for the next level
# [19:05] <fantasai> tantek, florian: Also, <x> and <y> should be <integer>{1,2|
# [19:05] <tantek> fantasai - yes to next level
# [19:05] <Florian> tantek: do you mind if I just go ahead and add the may to the spec?
# [19:05] <fantasai> (in the spec
# [19:06] <tantek> Florian - checking for context of "may"
# [19:06] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [19:06] <Florian> Implementations may substitute a more language, script, or writing-mode appropriate ellipsis character, or three dots "..." if the ellipsis character is unavailable.
# [19:06] <Florian> tantek: I'm just adding writing modes to the list
# [19:06] <tantek> yes that looks good go for it
# [19:06] <Florian> fantasai: why {1,2}
# [19:06] <Florian> fantasai: why {1,2}?
# [19:06] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: fantasai: hey! any chance for a response to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0049.html at some point? thanks :)
# [19:07] * tantek just caught up on that thread
# [19:07] * Quits: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:07] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [19:07] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:07] <Zakim> -Florian
# [19:07] <Zakim> -hyojin
# [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +82.26.91.2.aaaa, dael, Florian, tgraham, glazou, plinss, astearns, +1.631.398.aabb, hyojin, MikeMiller, bcampbell, alex_antennahouse, smfr, hober, antonp, dauwhe,
# [19:07] <Zakim> ... adenilson, TabAtkins, [Bloomberg], Bert_, +1.425.301.aacc, dbaron, tantek, SteveZ, fantasai, SimonSapin, Rossen
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Yes!
# [19:08] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: sorry I keep nagging about it
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> No apologies necessary, delays are annoying. But loading up flexbox is hard, too, and I really wanna wait for Elika to get here next week. ^_^
# [19:08] <fantasai> cbiesinger: I'm going to CA to visit Tab next week. :)
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# [19:09] <fantasai> cbiesinger: We should get through a lot of Flexbox and Grid issues then :)
# [19:09] <cbiesinger> oh, *next* week. I misunderstood tab when he mentioned that visit recently :)
# [19:09] <fantasai> heh
# [19:09] <cbiesinger> looking forward to it :)
# [19:09] * fantasai flying out on Tuesday
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# [19:11] <hyojin> I admire that Flexbox and Grid go well :)
# [19:11] <cbiesinger> cool
# [19:11] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: btw, are you coming to sydney?
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Nope, too much travel in May already, and I'm vacationing with family instead.
# [19:11] <cbiesinger> that sounds like fun too :)
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# [19:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think our first task should be to sort out the %-margin issue, or at least, set up the relevant discussions
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, def.
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Would it be easier to do Tuesday from SF?
# [19:28] <fantasai> (fwiw, I'll probably get there around 1pm & will need food.)
# [19:28] <tantek> fantasai - you're in SF next week? sorry to miss you - will be in Paris for AB/AC :/
# [19:28] <fantasai> MV's fine. SFO is kindof halfway in-between :)
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sure. Ojan is relevant for the %-margin discussion, tho, and he'll be in SF.
# [19:29] <fantasai> I think his last email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0273.html was really clear
# [19:30] <fantasai> You and I need to summarize the issue real good and make a blog post and collect author feedback and get the implementers together to discuss
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> All right.
# [19:31] <fantasai> We've basically got two camps that are both right and have equal influence :)
# [19:31] <fantasai> So we need to bring in something new.
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> SPEC-WRITER FIAT
# [19:32] <tantek> %-margins? /me shudders
# [19:33] <fantasai> Goal for the week should be new LC into the publication pipeline
# [19:33] * fantasai wants an update on TR before we get bogged down at the f2f
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> Sure.
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# [20:41] <shepazu> plinss, ping
# [20:41] <plinss> shepazu: pong
# [20:41] <shepazu> plinss, glazou, I have a request for you
# [20:41] <plinss> ok
# [20:41] <shepazu> would you mind having a couple of (silent) observers on next week's call?
# [20:42] <shepazu> they are interested in how a normal/large WG telcon works
# [20:42] <shepazu> e.g. scribing, telcon q, etc.
# [20:42] <shepazu> mechanics more than the issues
# [20:43] <plinss> who are they?
# [20:44] <shepazu> plinss, an etherpad developer and someone from the OpenGov Foundation
# [20:45] <plinss> should be fine
# [20:45] <shepazu> both interested in managing process for interactive distributed groups, from a technical and process POV
# [20:45] <shepazu> plinss, ok, I'll send an email to you and Glazou, and them
# [20:45] <shepazu> thanks
# [20:46] <plinss> np
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# [21:51] <Florian> Regarding the resolution we made earlier for cursor image <x> and <y>, how is this:
# [21:51] <Florian> Note: This specification does not define how the coordinate systems of the various types of <image> are established, and defers this definition to [CSS4-IMAGES].
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# [23:24] <Florian> dbaron: earlier you said something about BFCs and -moz-hidden-unscrollable. Was it that that values, unlike other non visible values of overflow, doesn't make the element into a BFC?
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# [23:24] <Florian> dbaron: I'd think "overflow: clipped" should establish a BFC. Any reason you'd want it otherwise?
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# [23:52] <dbaron> Florian, I don't have strong feelings, although one nice thing about switching between visible and -moz-hidden-unscrollable is that it doesn't change layout
# [23:53] <Florian> I'll write up the spec without making an exception for now, but I'll log an issue to reflect this.
# [23:53] <Florian> dbaron: sounds ok?
# [23:53] <dbaron> Florian, sure
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 30 00:00:01 2015

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