/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-05-06 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 06 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:34] <fantasai> Rossen: Tab and I made a table on the whiteboard, and since we thought it was useful, we put it in your spec http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-position/#abs-non-replaced-width
# [00:34] <fantasai> Rossen: hope you don't mind
# [00:34] <fantasai> Rossen: feel free to delete it if you hate it :)
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# [01:09] <cbiesinger> fantasai: hey, do you know how long bikeshed generation usually takes? wanted to look at the flexbox spec :)
# [01:09] <fantasai> um
# [01:09] <fantasai> it shouldn't take more than a few minutes
# [01:09] * fantasai looks
# [01:10] <fantasai> :/
# [01:11] <fantasai> plinss: Can we not delete old copies of the auto-genned specs until the new one is ready?
# [01:11] <fantasai> plinss: It's really a problem that our specs are unavailable while the server is rebuilding the world
# [01:11] <cbiesinger> heh. yeah I was surprised that it's taking a noticeable amount of time
# [01:11] <fantasai> cbiesinger: I'll email you a copy, just a sec
# [01:11] <cbiesinger> thanks!
# [01:12] <fantasai> sent
# [01:12] <fantasai> If it's looking weird, add a <base href="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/"> line to the top
# [01:13] <plinss> fantasai: they’re actually not deleted, but yes I need to change it so that it still access the old one
# [01:13] * fantasai forgot to do that
# [01:13] <fantasai> plinss: I think that's probably an important thing to do
# [01:13] <fantasai> plinss: Having our specs randomly disappear while implementers are trying to work off them is problematic
# [01:13] <plinss> I know, working on it
# [01:13] <plinss> currently it’s taking too long because there’s an issue on the server it seems, looking in to it
# [01:13] <fantasai> k :)
# [01:14] <plinss> but currently blocked because HP’s IT system locked me out of everything…
# [01:14] * fantasai thought the csswg server wasn't an HP server?
# [01:14] <cbiesinger> lol, went to spam
# [01:16] <plinss> it’s not, but this fire is top priority at the moment
# [01:23] <fantasai> fire? o_O
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# [01:31] <plinss> no hp email (so no access to w3c lists), no im, no phone…
# [01:31] <fantasai> okay, what can we do?
# [01:31] <fantasai> Because right now the specs have been down for at least an hour
# [01:31] <fantasai> like, a lot of them
# [01:32] <plinss> understood, I’m currently on the phone with HP IT, and can’t do too many things at once… need a few minutes to focus on the server...
# [01:32] <plinss> will get to it shortly
# [01:32] <fantasai> okay
# [01:34] * fantasai checks in a copy of Flexbox
# [01:35] * fantasai thinks we should just keep flexbox in the repo
# [01:38] * fantasai until the interim-old-copy thing is fixed, anyway
# [01:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0038.html
# [01:40] <cbiesinger> fantasai: question about 9.2 3.D. should "inline axis" be "block axis"? coz otherwise I think it wouldn't be an orthogonal flow?
# [01:42] <cbiesinger> actually let me email that instead for better tracking
# [01:44] <fantasai> Tab says, no, it's correct
# [01:44] <fantasai> you have to consider "the available main size is infinite"
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> infinite space in the inline axis is the defining condition that triggers orthogonal flow.
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> non-ortho always has a finite amount of sapce in the inline axis
# [01:44] <fantasai> it's not really the defining condition, but it's the condition that's otherwise hard to handle :)
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> and possibly infinite block axis
# [01:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins says "it's the case that only happens in orthogonal flows"
# [01:45] <fantasai> which is the point, yeah
# [01:45] * fantasai sorry, we're in the same room atm ;)
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> This is specifically talking about an English page with a column flexbox, where the flex item is in vertical Japanese.
# [01:46] <TabAtkins> Then the main axis is vertical, and because it's an english page, has infinite available space (because vertical is infinite).
# [01:46] <TabAtkins> But that's also the inline axis for the Japanese item.
# [01:48] <fantasai> Maybe we should add a note...
# [01:49] <cbiesinger> um, ok, give me a minute to process that
# [01:50] * fantasai goes to add a note
# [01:52] <cbiesinger> I guess you're right
# [01:52] <cbiesinger> some day I need to understand the writing-mode spec
# [01:53] * fantasai too
# [01:54] <cbiesinger> I couldn't really follow it last time, and it didn't help that it uses measure/extent when newer specs use block-axis size/inline-axis size :/
# [01:55] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: anyway, doesn't that mean that 9.2.3 needs another subitem that handles "regular" orthogonal flows? english page, row flexbox, vertical japanese flexitem
# [01:55] <cbiesinger> preferably without requiring layout :/
# [01:55] <cbiesinger> (thanks for adding the note!)\
# [01:56] <fantasai> No, that falls into case E
# [01:56] <TabAtkins> (and requires layout)
# [01:56] <fantasai> Same as english page, column flexbox, horizontal english flexitem
# [01:56] <fantasai> (But yes, it requires layout.)
# [01:57] <cbiesinger> oh, well, true that your case requires layout, but that doesn't bother me because it's not relevant for calculating preferred widths
# [01:58] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: I guess that answers the private email I sent you
# [01:58] <cbiesinger> we don't want to implement that
# [01:59] <TabAtkins> you already implement case E doing layout
# [01:59] <TabAtkins> or else column flexboxes, um, simply don't work
# [01:59] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: not for the purpose of preferred width calculations
# [02:00] <fantasai> Yeah, you're just going to have to deal with it at some point. Like I said, even simple cases like English table column headings that happen to be vertical cant be handled if you can't handle that
# [02:01] <fantasai> s/simple/non-i18n/
# [02:02] <cbiesinger> I wonder how firefox deals with that. when emil and I experimented with it, it broke spectacularly
# [02:02] <cbiesinger> (as did we)
# [02:02] <cbiesinger> (at the time; now we're consistent but wrong)
# [02:03] * fantasai doesn't know, hasn't looked into it
# [02:03] * fantasai just knows that it's a thing that needs to be dealt with
# [02:03] <fantasai> very common use cases require it
# [02:03] <cbiesinger> well, I'll worry about it another time
# [02:03] <cbiesinger> can't be *that* common since they don't work :p
# [02:04] <cbiesinger> fantasai: anyway right now I'm more interested in your thoughts on the reply I just sent you
# [02:05] <fantasai> it's not common on the Web *because* it doesn't work, but it's common in print publications :)
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# [03:11] <fantasai> leaverou: help? https://twitter.com/csswg/status/595690688920059904
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# [16:16] <Florian> I'm confused at the definition of grapheme clusters
# [16:16] <Florian> Is a space a grapheme cluster?
# [16:18] <tantek> Florian: it has a normative reference, how can it be confusing? ;)
# [16:18] <Florian> :)
# [16:21] <Florian> I'll just assume it means what I think it does, which is that "A", "å", "நி", " " and "　" are grapheme clusters. I'm not familiar enough with the unicode jargon to be sure that I am correct without spending hours reading the specs, but if I'm wrong and it makes a difference to a spec I edit, someone will eventually point it out
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# [17:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
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# [17:29] * Topic is 'Agenda confcall 2015-04-29 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0392.html'
# [17:29] * Set by plinss on Wed Apr 29 03:44:41
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# [17:42] <dbaron> so... will AC meeting wifi be good enough for a sip connection to Zakim...
# [17:42] <dbaron> trackbot, start teleconference
# [17:42] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [17:42] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
# [17:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [17:43] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
# [17:43] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
# [17:43] <trackbot> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
# [17:43] <trackbot> Date: 06 May 2015
# [17:43] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
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# [17:54] * plinss changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-05-06 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0051.html'
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# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:55] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:55] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
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# [17:56] <dbaron> Zakim, who is here?
# [17:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Mozilla]
# [17:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see dbaron, dael, myakura, antenna, Zakim, tantek, krijnhoetmerbot, dauwhe, antonp, shepazu_, Florian_, tgraham``, hgl, lajava, ed, svillar, liam, rego, heycam|away,
# [17:56] <Zakim> ... CSSWG_LogBot, Bert, fantasai, gsnedders, dwim, paul___irish, geheimnis`, decadance, stryx`, Hixie, Rossen, plinss, ed_work, logbot, SimonSapin, slightlyoff, ppk___, cbiesinger,
# [17:56] <Zakim> ... ElijahLynn, dstockwell, mihnea_____, TabAtkins, lmclister______, leaverou, robertknight_clo, ojan, koji, krit, JonathanNeal_, astearns, shans, shane, rbyers, sylvaing, iank,
# [17:56] <Zakim> ... cabanier
# [17:56] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [17:56] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:56] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
# [17:56] <Zakim> +astearns
# [17:57] <dbaron> Also, Zakim-SIP doesn't work for me... I had to go through Mozilla's phone network.
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:58] <tgraham``> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +tgraham``; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Florian
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:59] <bcampbell> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
# [17:59] <tantek> oh it's call time
# [17:59] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P20
# [18:00] <antonp> Zakim, ??P20 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P21
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [18:01] <alex_antennahouse> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [18:01] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:02] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:03] * tantek is still trying to call in
# [18:03] * tantek so many captive portal mazes.
# [18:03] <BradK> **crickets**
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Let's get started.
# [18:04] * tantek goes back to editing
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Any last minute additions to the agenda?
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: andrey you wanted to do a F2F reminder?
# [18:04] <andrey-bloomberg> sorry phone died
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: He sent a note to anyone going the the NYC F2F to update the wiki so we can get a count.
# [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
# [18:05] <dael> Florian_: I'm about to get air bnb so if anyone wants to join please let me know today.
# [18:05] <SimonSapin> Florian_, did you get my email response?
# [18:05] <dael> Topic: CSSOM View document.scrollingElement review
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.425.301.aacc
# [18:05] <Florian_> simonSapin: yes, thanks
# [18:05] <plinss> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-scrollingelement
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: TAG was asked for input and there was discussion there, but I don't think we discussed this in the group. I wanted to make sure we took a look at this and give commnts or feedback
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: It's not widely impl, but has different behaviors. I'm not sure if this section has been reviewed by many people and I want to make sure it's impl what we want it to impl.
# [18:06] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:06] * shepazu_ is now known as shepazu
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: So does anyone have feedback?
# [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:07] <dael> [silence]
# [18:07] <dbaron> Why is this being added? It seems like an odd definition.
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> zakim, aabb is [Google]
# [18:07] <Zakim> +[Google]; got it
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> zakim, [Google] has me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:07] <dauwhe> Zakim, mute me
# [18:07] <Zakim> dauwhe should now be muted
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> zakim, [Google] has fantasai
# [18:07] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:07] <dael> smfr: It's not clear if this is a stopgap until browsers have correct behavior or if it's a long term API that will stick around
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Not to me either.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: Which are you referring to?
# [18:08] * tantek is trying dialing again
# [18:08] <dael> smfr: In standards mode it's always scrolling element. I think this is a stopgap until webkit and blick use the document element in standards mode. With the intent this is used by polyfills to get correct behavior
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P28
# [18:08] <tantek> zakim, ??p28 is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:08] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:08] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:08] <dbaron> It would be nice if the spec actually contained the motivation.
# [18:09] <dael> smfr: It doesn't feel like a stopgap, it seems like it will stick around until the end of time. If it is a stopgap, I'd prefer it was designed more like one.
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: I don't think this is a stopgap. I think it has wide adoption. Backing out, I'm not sure if it would be easy even if you want to change.
# [18:09] <smfr> dbaron: lots of motivation at https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/issues/51
# [18:09] <dbaron> Gecko doesn't implement it
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: It's not clear how useful this API is. What does it do in iFrames? There's holes here.
# [18:10] <dael> smfr: It's not intended to be scrolling. It's only for this issue with a historical behavior where in standards mode it scrolls the body, not the doc. It sounds more general, but it's really specific.
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: We have impl the same way as webkit and Chrome for mobile interop. This is a fairly used API at this point and I don't think we can backout unless we do it together.
# [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:10] <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:10] <dael> smfr: I don't think you immpl this. I think you impl the body as a scrolling element.
# [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, mute me
# [18:11] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
# [18:11] <dael> dbaron: If this is to be a transitional thing for the quirky behavior can go away, shoudln't the definition be tied to if the behavior is there?
# [18:11] <dael> smfr: That's a good suggestion for ric.
# [18:11] <dbaron> (e.g., if Gecko were to implement it, and doesn't have the quirky behavior, should we be implementing something different from what the spec says?)
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: The major reason for this is the weird behavior of webkit and blink, but the same quirks mode effects it. So even if you impl properly you still need to detect if you're in quirks mode
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: I'm hearing from MS not sure if it can be changed, hearing from others I'm not sure if that's the way we want it.
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: It sounds like this is needed for quirks mode vs standard mode docs as well as the webkit behaviors
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: It sounds like this is something we ought to be working on.
# [18:13] <dael> smfr: I don't obj to this. I think the bug report was webkit would like it to be more clear on intent.
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: Are we comf. with the behavior as speced?
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: Are you saying a little stronger and clearer def would make you willing to put in efforts?
# [18:14] <dael> smfr: If what TabAtkins says is correct and this will be longterm behaviour it seems like it has legs and will stick around.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: Okay. So who would want to work on that, spec wise?
# [18:14] <dbaron> I think (a) we should have a plan to have implementations doing the same thing and (b) if this is part of a plan to migrate to some end state, that migration sequence should be described in the spec
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: The spec part seems trivial. You put it in CSSOM View and it's a paragraph of definition. That's all.
# [18:14] <dael> plinss: dbaron made some comments in IRC
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Anyone willing to take this work?
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: I can work with ric to get a definition and do a PR
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Everyone happy with that?
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen: Yep.
# [18:15] <dael> resolved: accept the behavior but add more definitions
# [18:15] <dael> Topic: Publish/Review of CSS3 UI
# [18:15] <Florian_> https://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS3-UI
# [18:16] <dael> Florian_: For the first time in a while we have 0 issues. This wiki has the resolved issues. Some are by fixing, some postponing, but it's all documented.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian_: This looks like a good time to review and perhaps ask other WG to look at it at the end of which we go to CR
# [18:16] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:16] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:16] * Joins: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [18:16] <dael> Florian_: tantek mentioned he wanted to add an impl appendix
# [18:16] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:17] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:17] <dael> tantek: I've gone ahead and added it on my local copy. That should be done soon. This is a security and privacy questionarre that the TAG is looking at and I believe is taking up. It's meant for self review of editors of their specs. I think it's good to include as informative appendix.
# [18:17] <dael> tantek: It's informative, not normative and pretty short.
# [18:17] <dael> Florian_: I suggest we put a WD out
# [18:18] * fantasai zakim mute tantek
# [18:18] <smfr> can’t hear a thing
# [18:18] <dael> Florian_: after we decide if we're going to CR
# [18:18] * fantasai didn't hear what florian said, but is in favor of WD
# [18:18] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:18] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:18] <dael> tantek: I'd like this to go with the WD. Give me a few mintues and we're good.
# [18:18] <plinss> https://w3ctag.github.io/security-questionnaire/
# [18:18] <tantek> I'm in favor of WD with these informatie edits
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: Here's the link to tantek's document.
# [18:18] * astearns can hear tantek fine when he's speaking, but background takes over when he's quiet
# [18:18] <Florian_> I Want to put a WD out, ask the group to review, maybe ping other WG
# [18:18] <Florian_> Effectively a LC
# [18:18] * fantasai astearns +1
# [18:18] <andrey-bloomberg> +1 for working draft
# [18:18] <fantasai> +1
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: So publish an updated WD with this section. Do people want to review or are we good to pub?
# [18:18] <Zakim> + +93016aadd
# [18:18] <fantasai> for resolution to publish
# [18:19] <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
# [18:19] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:19] <dael> Florian_: Do we want to ping any other WG about this being effectively done?
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Prob ping HTML and maybe webapps and a11y.
# [18:19] * tantek apologies for the noisy background.
# [18:19] <dael> Florian_: Yes. Prob also SVG because they were interested in nav prop.
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: publish an updated WD with the additional section from tantek
# [18:19] * fantasai \^_^/
# [18:20] <dael> plinss: If you could work on the additional comments in DoC form we can get queued up for CR.
# [18:20] <dael> Florian_: And everyone shoudl review this.
# [18:20] <dael> Topic: justify-content: stretch on flex items
# [18:20] <dael> plinss: fantasai I think you raised this?
# [18:21] <dbaron> "stays the way it is and behaves the other way" ?
# [18:21] * dbaron didn't follow that sentence
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: We wanted to know what the right way to change auto and stretch values of alignment. On flex the behave as start. Do we compute them through or do we say it stays the way it is. The reason to compute through is auto is a new value. If the initial value can make it disappear, for backwards compat we need to compute through
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# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: So a) is compute to flex start or b) is the compute to themselves and behave as flex start
# [18:22] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:22] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:22] <dael> Rossen: I'm included to go witht he first option because there's less magic. I'm not convinced it would be the optimal behavior we can have. I haven't had too much chance to work on the issue and think about it so if anything I will update on the ML
# [18:23] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:23] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: My one thought is we've been introducing a lot of computation dependancies and they all have cost an may prevent more in the future so we should be careful of those.
# [18:23] <dbaron> fantasai, is "compute through" (a) or (b)?
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: Okay. Based ont he feedback so far I'm inclide to have it compute through. If people disagree we can come back to it. We're not changing flexbox.
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: compute through is (a). Come to flex start
# [18:23] <dael> s/comp/compute
# [18:24] <dael> s/come/compute
# [18:24] <fantasai> (This is a Box Alignment issue; Flexbox doesn't have auto or stretch values)
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: Option a was compute to stretch and behave as flex start. So you're saying it computes to flex start?
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. It computes to flex start.
# [18:24] <fantasai> A) compute to flex-start
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: Objections?
# [18:24] <fantasai> B) compute to self, behave as flex-start
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:24] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:24] <astearns> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:24] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:24] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:24] <Zakim> astearns, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Google] (34%), dbaron (34%), +1.425.301.aacc (45%), antonp (24%)
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: Is there dependencies here?
# [18:24] <tantek> FYI: CSS3-UI security & privacy questionnaire answers appendix committed
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: It depends on value of position and hte value of the parent's display
# [18:25] <dbaron> s/Is there dependencies here/What's the exact dependency here, in terms of properties/
# [18:25] <astearns> zakim, mute antonp
# [18:25] <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
# [18:25] * fantasai thinks dbaron has a good point, we should make a dependency graph on the wiki
# [18:25] * tantek oops need to fix ID
# [18:25] * dbaron fantasai, we have one on the wiki, I think
# [18:25] * fantasai ok
# [18:25] * fantasai goes looking
# [18:25] * dbaron fantasai, but it's pretty out-of-date
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen: Like fantasai pointed out I don't currently have an obj, but I'll try to get together with my flexbox dev and give it some additional thinking so if anything comes to mind as a better solution, we'll discuss it then.
# [18:26] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:26] * Florian_ thinks the computed value dependency graph sound like a job for bikeshed
# [18:26] * Florian_ is now known as Florian
# [18:26] * tantek indeed Florian
# [18:26] <dael> RESOLVED: justify-content stretch computes to stretch but behaves like start
# [18:26] <dbaron> fantasai, https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/property-dependencies is our wiki list of dependencies
# [18:26] <dael> Topic: Position 'center; and ;page; values
# [18:27] * Florian actually, let me say this in a minuted way.
# [18:27] <Florian> I think the computed value dependency graph sound like a job for bikeshed
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: We had a resolution to publish without the page value and the center value it it had thos. Unless someone can make an complelling arguament to keep page we should republish with it.
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: We should also remove the position: center because we have more powerful tools. We should remove these two and have the position draft be the CSS2.1 positioning schemes plus sticky.
# [18:28] * tantek really? dropping position:center ?!?
# [18:28] <fantasai> s/tools/tools in Box Alignment/
# [18:28] * tantek where was that Hackernews / Reddit thread
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen: IN term of position: center, I dont remember a resolution to not have it. We discussed as a part of the positioning spec. There was some excitement on that, I think, but that's just memory. I'm impartian. I don't think anyone has impl currently or efforts toward it.
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen: If that's what everybody wants.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: We don't have a resolution one way or the other on center.
# [18:29] <tantek> I would like to keep position: center
# [18:29] <tantek> and if there are issues, note the issues inline
# [18:29] <fantasai> tantek, we have centering in css-align
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen: So does anyone care if we keep position: center? The proposed resolution is to remove position: center
# [18:29] <tantek> ok fantasai - I defer
# [18:29] <tantek> if you're convinced it's just as easy for users
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen: SO that's nobody. plinss can we record a resolution?
# [18:29] <tantek> s/users/authors
# [18:29] <tantek> since I'm not as up to date on it
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: tantek said in IRC he'd like to keep, but is willing to defer.
# [18:29] <tantek> I remember the excitement about position:center also
# [18:30] <fantasai> tantek: Think so. If not, file issues against css-align :)
# [18:30] <dael> plinss: Anyone else want to keep it?
# [18:30] <tantek> ok fantasai I'm trusting you :)
# [18:30] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:30] <dael> RESOLVED: remove position: center from Position
# [18:30] <tantek> FYI: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/#security-privacy-considerations
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen: for position: page I was going off a resolution we recorded in...[tries to find it]
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: The resolution from Aug 2011, that was the Seattle F2F
# [18:31] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0709.html
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: The last resolution was publish CSS3 Positioning. There's nothing about removing it.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: Here's the resolution to remove it.
# [18:31] * tantek Florian want to take a quick look at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/#security-privacy-considerations just to quickly double-check my answers?
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: Bu the way, page is meant to adress same issues as floats, right?
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: It's related. There was concerns about the way paes were built.
# [18:32] * Florian tantek: Will do right after the call
# [18:32] <fantasai> s/paes were built/position: page works/
# [18:32] * tantek thanks Florian that works. I'll stay on IRC for a bit - should only take you 1-2 minutes tops.
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen: The way I remember that discussion was...A bit of content is a better name for posistion: page is position: fragment, but back then we hadn't worked on the fragment spec yet. Essentially the features allow any fragmentation context on the way to become a positioning contrainer. So if you have an element that needs to be positioned, that fragmeent will be positions.
# [18:33] <fantasai> (fragmentation contexts = pages, columns, regions, etc.)
# [18:33] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:33] <tantek> zakim, mute me
# [18:33] <Zakim> tantek was already muted, tantek
# [18:33] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Google] (4%), +1.425.301.aacc (95%)
# [18:34] <tantek> Zakim: aacc is Rossen
# [18:34] <tantek> Zakim, aacc is Rossen
# [18:34] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen: So if that's a page box, the positioning occurs on that level. That's what the feature was spec'ing. When the fragementation, such as the top level scroller, everything is positioned off of that. THat's the same as saying if I have no other positioning contrainers on the way to the root scroller the root scroller is the positioner.
# [18:34] <Florian> q+
# [18:34] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen: We've seen a lot of usage in applications that use regions and the only way to target the current page for something like an annotation is to have a way to define the frag. as the current container. If there's another way to do that I'd be happy to explore that, but currently I don't believe we have any.
# [18:35] <BradK> Sounds like a pretty great feature
# [18:35] <fantasai> Arron presented a draft for CSS3 Positioning, which includes CSS2.1
# [18:35] <fantasai> absolute, fixed, and relative positioning, containing blocks, and
# [18:35] <fantasai> z-index; and that adds:
# [18:35] <fantasai> - 'position: center', in which 'auto' offsets compute to center the element
# [18:35] <fantasai> - 'position: page', in which the current page box is the containing block
# [18:35] <fantasai> There were concerns raised that the page positioning scheme would result in
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen: I'm not married to the name, I believe position: fragment is a more accurate name. We have missing functionality there that we need to address.
# [18:35] <fantasai> layouts that broke very badly if the document were either rendered onto a
# [18:35] <Florian> q-
# [18:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <fantasai> continuous (scrolling) canvas, or if it were paginated differently than the
# [18:35] <fantasai> author's original intent (due to differently-sized fonts, differently-sized
# [18:35] <plinss> ack florian
# [18:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <fantasai> pages, etc.). Thus:
# [18:35] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Positioning as FPWD, without position: page
# [18:35] <fantasai> (That was the resolution)
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: I'm not an expert on this, but it seems like they're all addressing the same thing. Am I right about this? I know they don't work the same, but what you apply them to seems to be the same.
# [18:37] * smfr has to drop off
# [18:37] <dael> Rossen: Page floats is a, basically 2 sep. features combining to 1. They're defining exclusion areas to some element and we have aspec that does that. The second feature is how do you psoition somethin gon the page. This is beyond page floats, this is a feature that' smeant for several types of fragments.
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: But page floats uses page in the name, but it's really about fragmentainers and positioning.
# [18:37] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:37] <dael> Rossen: As far as I remember last time I read page floats, it was all about pages, not about frag.
# [18:38] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:38] * Joins: hober (~ted@public.cloak)
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: But it's also about deferring to the next column. So if you have columns and pages i'ts not a stretch to add regions.
# [18:38] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [18:38] * fantasai q+
# [18:38] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:38] <dael> Rossen: So what if I don't wnat something to be a float, but I want to position it. I don't want an element that creates an exclusion area. Page floats is combining two features, creating an exclusion area based on the shape you're defining. It has nothing to do with how you got to the area.
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: I agree it's a difference, but I'm not sure it counts against page floats. It's agreed that one of the weaknesses of abspos is it doesn't deal with things colliding.
# [18:39] <dael> Rossen: Which is what you'd want with annotations that are in the same area.
# [18:39] <plinss> ack fantasai
# [18:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:40] * BradK thinks Rossen has a good point. Exclusions is already good as a separate thing. Fragmentainer positioning negates the need for page floats.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Back to the original issue. When the WG agreed to publish, it explicitly said it shoudln't include this feature. It was in the minutes and I pasted it above. There was no resolution later to include this. It should be removed and the draft republished.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: If you want to add it Rossen you can make a case. The resolution as it stands and should have been exicuted is that it doesn't include the feature and it should not have that feature since that's the consensus. I want the draft to reflect where the WG stands on these features.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I'm cool with that and continuing the discussion on if we have the use cases covered. fantasai point seems valid to me.
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: I agree with fantasai but I also agree it's a useful feature. It does seem like there's some overlap. The float reference property does seem similar. Let's have a common underlying appoarch, but that's more Proposal is republish without this property. Obj?
# [18:42] <Florian> +1 to plinss
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen: I don't, no.
# [18:42] <BradK> Editors draft will still have it for reference?
# [18:42] <dael> RESOLVED: republish without positin: page and republish CSS positioning. Also update the short name
# [18:43] <fantasai> old drafts will still have it for reference
# [18:43] <fantasai> that's why W3C has dated drafts :)
# [18:43] <dbaron> (presumably center should also be removed per previous resolution)
# [18:43] <dael> plinss: Anyone will take an action to create a better definition of position: page?
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen: I'll put this on the NYC F2F topics.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: That sounds like something worth talking about. If you could bring use cases it would be nice.
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen: Yeah. I'll have use cases.
# [18:44] <dael> Rossen: It would be good to have page float use cases as well.
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: I'd like to see prop. to unify them.
# [18:44] <dael> Topic: prop to not standardize use-modify
# [18:44] * fantasai wonders where ChrisL is
# [18:44] <tantek> agree that user-modify is now out of date per current thinking
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: I've been looking at things that were in very early versions or things that were impl but currently missing. user-modify existed a long time ago, but webkit and blink impl. They currently only use it to invoke content: editable and you can jsut use content: editable.
# [18:45] <tantek> let contentEditable and Editing discussions handle this
# [18:45] <tantek> we're agreed on this.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: If we have it in CSS it start applying to non-HTML lang and we don't know how it applies. contentEditable is useful, but not on this.
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: Anyone with other opinions?
# [18:46] <cbiesinger> fantasai: TabAtkins: in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#resolve-flexible-lengths, any mention of "flex base size" that does not say outer means inner, right?
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: It's not even removing it. It's deciding not to work on it.
# [18:46] <tantek> like anything else - if the concept is interesting/useful in the future, people can make a proposal
# [18:46] <dael> RESOLVED: no user-modify in CSS UI 4
# [18:46] <dael> Topic: weaken upright rendering of horizontal-only scripts
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: koji are you on the call?
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: It doesn't seem so.
# [18:47] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:47] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, dbaron (muted), dael, astearns, tgraham``, dauwhe (muted), Florian, bcampbell, +1.631.398.aaaa, SimonSapin, alex_antennahouse, [Bloomberg], BradK,
# [18:47] * fantasai note to Dael - strip cbiesinger's comment from the minutes
# [18:47] * Zakim ... [Google], Rossen, tantek (muted), ??P2, antonp (muted)
# [18:47] * Zakim [Google] has fantasai
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Anyone else able to speak to this or should we defer until we have koji?
# [18:47] * fantasai cbiesinger will look later today
# [18:47] * TabAtkins STRIKE IT FROM THE MINUTES
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: We'll defer.
# [18:47] * cbiesinger oops
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: I'm out of topics. I think we're done for the week.
# [18:47] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:47] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:48] <tantek> ChrisL is in Paris
# [18:48] <tantek> yes he was around the AC meeting
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone know where chrisL is?
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: I think I saw him at the AC meeting.
# [18:48] <tantek> dbaron is in the conference room, glazou and I are in the bar
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: okay. I was just wondering.
# [18:48] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Okay. We'll talk next week.
# [18:49] * dbaron hmmm, did I hang up to quickly when peter said the meeting was over?
# [18:49] <tantek> dbaron yes - Rossen brought up zoom
# [18:49] <tantek> zoom? does that belong in CSS UI 4?
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen: One quick question. The one behavior and prop I was going to put on the F2F agenda was the zoom prop we've been working on better interop. I wanted to give a heads up that this is something we wanted to talk about. I'll have a spec desc the current behavior, but it would be great o decide if we want to keep that prop or get rid of it.
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: Is it the zoom that's a bit like transforms but effects layout things?
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen: Yeah.
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Also a good reminder that it's a good time to add topics to the wiki.
# [18:50] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:50] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:50] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [18:50] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:50] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Now we're really done.
# [18:50] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [18:50] <Zakim> -[Google]
# [18:50] <tantek> zakim, unmute me
# [18:50] <Zakim> -??P2
# [18:50] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:50] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:50] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:50] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:50] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:50] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:50] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaaa
# [18:50] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:50] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 31.6.0/20150325203137]")
# [18:50] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:50] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:50] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:50] <Zakim> -tgraham``
# [18:50] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:50] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, dbaron, astearns, tgraham``, dauwhe, Florian, bcampbell, +1.631.398.aaaa, antonp, SimonSapin, alex_antennahouse, smfr, [Bloomberg], BradK,
# [18:50] <Zakim> ... +1.650.253.aabb, +1.425.301.aacc, TabAtkins, fantasai, tantek, +93016aadd, Rossen
# [18:51] <tantek> Florian, I'm still here - just off the phone.
# [18:51] <Florian> Tantek: me too, reading the appendix right now
# [18:51] <tantek> cool, adding it to the changes section now :)
# [18:52] <Florian> 6) "Does this specification enable new script execution/loading mechanisms? "
# [18:52] <Florian> is that (script execution)/(loading) or script (execution/loading)
# [18:53] <Florian> if the later, the answer is no.
# [18:53] <tantek> I interepreted it broadly (first way)
# [18:53] <tantek> right
# [18:53] <tantek> figuring in security better to answer as if more possibilities are possible
# [18:53] <tantek> (default security mindset)
# [18:53] <Florian> Do we want to edit the spec to make it clear that javascript: urls must not be supported?
# [18:54] <tantek> I'd say CSS Image should say that!
# [18:54] <tantek> since CSS UI just references <<image>>
# [18:54] <tantek> for URL for loading
# [18:54] <tantek> but yes, CSS Image should disallow javascript: URLs
# [18:54] <Florian> Fair enough. And mozilla actually takes javascript: urls in <images>, I believe.
# [18:54] <tantek> oops
# [18:55] <Florian> (running in a sandbox, but still)
# [18:55] <Florian> I'll send you a link to a talk about that
# [18:55] <tantek> heh
# [18:55] <tantek> can you file it as an issue against CSS Image?
# [18:55] <tantek> the link
# [18:55] <Florian> yes
# [18:58] <Florian> 11. Does this specification allow an origin some measure of control over a user agent’s native UI?
# [18:58] <Florian> Maybe include outline in the list as well? Especially since the auto values lets you get "native" outlines
# [18:58] <tantek> with outline-style: auto?
# [18:58] <tantek> or rather, outline: auto?
# [18:59] <tantek> yes "permits the user agent to render a custom outline style, typically a style which is either a user interface default for the platform"
# [18:59] <tantek> ok adding
# [18:59] <Florian> outline-style
# [19:00] <Florian> Other than that, it looks ok to me.
# [19:01] <tantek> great - thanks for the quick review. rebikeshedding now.
# [19:02] <Florian> Can you handle the publication request as a WD (and keep me CCed on the mail)?
# [19:02] * Quits: andrey-bloomberg (~andrey-bloomberg@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:02] <Florian> As for mailing the other WG about reviewing this once the WD is out, I can do it, unless you want to. Up to you
# [19:03] <tantek> I'll take care of the publication request email yes
# [19:03] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [19:04] <Florian> thanks
# [19:04] <tantek> did we get an explicit list of WGs to email?
# [19:04] <fantasai> Yes, a11y, webapps, HTML, WHATWG, SVG
# [19:04] <fantasai> tantek: https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish might be helpful
# [19:04] * fantasai put templates there for announcements
# [19:04] <tantek> ok I think I can do that too
# [19:04] <tantek> thanks fantasai
# [19:05] <fantasai> np :)
# [19:06] <Florian> We're going to get this thing to CR! For good this time! Maybe... Dear $deity please not another 10 years in and out of LC/CR...
# [19:06] <tantek> It's bounced before
# [19:07] <Florian> I know
# [19:07] <tantek> though I think we've been conservative enough about "at risk"
# [19:07] <tantek> that we can choose to drop things if we want
# [19:07] <Florian> Yep.
# [19:07] * Quits: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:07] <fantasai> It won't bounce because it'll be New Process CR
# [19:07] <fantasai> :)
# [19:07] <tantek> haha
# [19:07] <fantasai> Flexbox meanwhile is stuck in LC hell
# [19:07] <tantek> famous last words
# [19:07] <fantasai> >_<
# [19:07] <tantek> awww
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: When unqualified, "flex base size" refers to whichever length the box-sizing property refers to.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> So yeah, inner by default.
# [19:08] <fantasai> Actually, I'd still consider that a spec bug
# [19:08] <Florian> We can bounce in and out of CR just fine without LC's help. But I agree we've done enough at-risking that we should be fine
# [19:08] <tantek> fantasai - do we need a levels of hell meme for flex box?
# [19:08] <fantasai> heh
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> Also, note that under New Process, "At Risk" has no effect.
# [19:08] <tantek> Florian: all committed
# [19:08] <tantek> I'm going to dinner but will be back online later
# [19:08] <fantasai> cbiesinger: However, we went through the instances and in the unqualified cases, it really doesn't matter which interpretation you pick
# [19:08] <Florian> TabAtkins: yes it does. YOu can drop things from a CR without having to CR again.
# [19:09] <fantasai> cbiesinger: as long as you pick the same interpretation for your comparison of the two things in the sentence
# [19:09] <fantasai> cbiesinger: So, I guess, you could thin of "size" as a two-valued value size.inner and size.outer
# [19:09] <Florian> TabAtkins: it's not nearly as bad as having to go through LC and CR, but without at-risk, you can't drop things and go straight to PR.
# [19:09] <tantek> right, you can drop any at risk when going from CR -> PR
# [19:10] <fantasai> cbiesinger: when size.outer - size.inner is constant for any two sizes, it doesn't matter which one you compare, so long as you use the same data member for both
# [19:10] * Florian wonder if Tabs cares that CR is not the end of the REC track
# [19:10] <fantasai> A.outer ? A.outer or A.inner ? A.inner
# [19:10] <fantasai> Florian: You're going to publish multiple CRs.
# [19:11] <fantasai> Florian: So it doesn't matter really, from our point of view, if there's enough things in the At-Risk list
# [19:11] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: sup with scrollingElement?
# [19:11] <fantasai> Florian: We can always add more
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Florian: Given our track record for actually writing test suites, no, CR is effectively the end of the Rec track as far as I'm concerned. ^_^
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: You wanna write it? If not, I'll get with Rick and write it, PR your spec.
# [19:11] <Florian> fantasai: probably more CRs to come, yes. But no need to generate even more of them
# [19:12] <fantasai> it'll get folded into an existing set of changes
# [19:12] <fantasai> Just don't worry about at-risk lists. Put what you think should go in there, and it'll get updated as reasonable
# [19:12] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: write what? i've specced it already
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Cool, no work for me, then.
# [19:12] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-scrollingelement
# [19:13] <Florian> fantasai: I don't don't worry about them. But we already have half the spec at risk anyway.
# [19:13] <fantasai> heh
# [19:13] <Florian> (not quite half, but eh)
# [19:13] <TabAtkins> Just put the whole thing At Risk. It has no negative effects, and it means you can drop things whenever.
# [19:13] <tantek> re: "CR is effectively the end of the Rec track as far as I'm concerned" - and that's how CSS3-UI was in CR FOR SO LOOOOOONGGGGGGG
# [19:14] <fantasai> also, you clearly had some work left to do :)
# [19:15] <Florian> TabAtkins: totally. That's why we've been pretty liberal with at-risking things. Well, there's a small risk, which is that people misunderstand what at-risk means, and think that we tell them not to implement it because it's unsafe stuff, which is kind of the opposite of the intended effect, but whatever.
# [19:17] <tantek> fantasai: hah - until tests and interop implementations happen - you don't know that you don't have some work left to do as an editor :P
# [19:18] <Florian> Tantek: speaking of tests, I have 2 or 3 pull requests pending on the test repo to add some tests for CSS-UI. Could you give a look?
# [19:18] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [19:19] <Florian> That's not the answer I hoped for :(
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# [19:51] <cbiesinger> fantasai: ah, I see, that could be right
# [19:51] <cbiesinger> thanks, TabAtkins and fantasai
# [19:53] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: you wrote " At the very least, "all" (and the hypothetical "flex-line" value) should cause a flex-line break"
# [19:53] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: do you mean "always"? afaict there is no all value
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> yeah, sure
# [19:53] <fantasai> There's always and any
# [19:54] <fantasai> I'm unsure about those
# [19:54] <fantasai> I think there was a reason for them not forcing a break...
# [19:54] <fantasai> Ohyeah
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# [19:54] <fantasai> Because if authors used 'always' to trigger a flex line break
# [19:54] <fantasai> they'd end up with tons of page breaks where they weren't expecting them
# [19:54] <cbiesinger> so...
# [19:54] <fantasai> Because always breaks through all the fragmentation contexts
# [19:55] <cbiesinger> so, that makes sense, BUT
# [19:55] <cbiesinger> then why make always force a break for columns?
# [19:59] <TabAtkins> You *want* 'always' to cause a page break, is the point. What we don't want is authors to misuse 'always' for flex-line breaking when they're not thinking about the effects on pages.
# [19:59] <TabAtkins> (Note that I'm contradicting myself from the email. ^_^)
# [20:02] <cbiesinger> uh, I'm getting confused
# [20:03] <cbiesinger> so clearly always should cause a page break
# [20:03] <fantasai> yes
# [20:03] <fantasai> We propagate it up to the flex line in the case of flex rows
# [20:03] <cbiesinger> and clearly for vertical flexboxes (columns in writing-mode:horizontal) they can't cause a page break
# [20:03] <fantasai> so that it doesn't cause a flex row break
# [20:03] <fantasai> also, consider grid layouts:
# [20:04] <fantasai> for grid layouts it *has* to propagate up to the grid row
# [20:04] <fantasai> and we want flexbox to be consistent with that
# [20:04] <cbiesinger> ok, but why are you saying that for columns it should force a flex line break?
# [20:04] <zcorpan> i love the "the "default" value" bikeshed
# [20:04] <fantasai> zcorpan: ?
# [20:05] <zcorpan> Re: [css-cascade-4][css3-ui] naming collision: the "default" value
# [20:08] * fantasai isn't seeing much to love in that thread
# [20:08] <fantasai> although I like dbaron's comment wrt spec terminology vs api names
# [20:08] <fantasai> :)
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# [20:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0038.html
# [20:13] <cbiesinger> I'm going to email my objection coz I have to leave for ab it
# [20:14] <fantasai> ?
# [20:15] <cbiesinger> fantasai: I'm unhappy with the inconsistency of break-after: always in row vs column
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# [20:19] <fantasai> cbiesinger: items in a column need to break because it has to be equivalent to block layout; you really do want page-breaking control there
# [20:19] <fantasai> cbiesinger: I see that there's an issue wrt multi-line column flex containers...
# [20:22] * fantasai rereads the spec
# [20:23] <fantasai> we don't say what happens in screen for multi-column flexboxes
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# [20:25] <fantasai> Thinking maybe it should just be ignored
# [20:25] <fantasai> (in paging contexts, it would break the flex container and push remaining content onto the next page)
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# [21:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/0534.html
# [21:51] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0264.html
# [21:55] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0066.html
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# [22:30] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I thought fantasai was saying that we resolved that the computed value does change for that particular fixup, whereas I thought the resolution was saying that the computed value does not change for the fixup but the fixup just happens despite the computed value
# [22:32] <TabAtkins> Hm, the resolution does say that. Let me go review the conversation; we might need to get an edited resolution.
# [22:34] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I think peter thought (a) and (b) were the other way around from what fantasai thought
# [22:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sounds like he did
# [22:34] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I actually prefer not doing computed value fixup, so I'm fine with it, but I don't care that strongly
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> Anyway, justify-content already does computed-value fixup of "auto" based on 'display' of the element, so having it do fixup for "stretch" on flexboxes as well isn't a new hardship. And it preserves back-compat, whatever that's worth.
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# [22:41] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: fantasai: ok so since blink doesn't really do pagination of flexbox yet I'll just completely ignore break-* for now
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Yeah, that works. ^_^
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# [22:50] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: is this channel logged, so I can link to it in a code review?
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Yes, one sec.
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Hm, looks like we haven't had the logbot url in the topic for at least a month. I'll see if I can dig it up.
# [22:53] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: heh. I found http://logs.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2015-05-06/
# [22:53] <cbiesinger> that the right one?
# [22:53] <TabAtkins> yup, that's it
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# [23:21] <Florian> TabAtkins: So far, 4 people (not counting you and Lea) for airbnb. I'm going to book first thing tomorrow. Should we could you? We might end up with something with enough room anyway, and then I'll let you know, but if not.
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> Go ahead and count me in.
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> And Lea.
# [23:22] <Florian> Cool
# [23:22] <Florian> dates?
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> I don't have dates yet, so just do whatever's reasonable for y'all. I'll work around it.
# [23:25] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:44] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# Session Close: Thu May 07 00:00:00 2015

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