/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-05-13 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 13 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:19] * plinss changes topic to 'Agenda confcall 2015-05-13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0167.html'
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# [17:50] <TabAtkins> Regrets for today's call; still on vacation today
# [17:51] <TabAtkins> fantasai can handle all the call items
# [17:52] <plinss> trackbot prepare telcon
# [17:52] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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# [17:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/13-css-irc
# [17:52] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
# [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [17:52] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
# [17:52] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
# [17:52] <trackbot> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
# [17:52] <trackbot> Date: 13 May 2015
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# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [17:55] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:56] <alex_antennahouse> zakim, im [IPcaller]
# [17:56] <Zakim> I don't understand 'im [IPcaller]', alex_antennahouse
# [17:56] <alex_antennahouse> zakim, IPcaller is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:56] <Zakim> +Florian
# [17:57] <Zakim> +astearns
# [17:57] <tgraham> zakim, IPCaller is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaaa
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P7
# [17:58] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P7 is me.
# [17:58] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:59] <bcampbell> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +hyojin
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +hober
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +Rossen
# [18:03] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, dael, alex_antennahouse, tgraham, Florian, astearns, +1.631.398.aaaa, adenilson, bcampbell, hyojin, +1.317.418.aabb, hober, +1.434.882.aacc, [Bloomberg],
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... MikeMiller, +1.434.882.aadd, BradK, Doug_Schepers, Rossen
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.831.337.aaee
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Let's get started.
# [18:04] <shepazu> q+
# [18:04] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: We have a few people who Zakim doesn't recognize. Would you update it? That would be great.
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Any last minute additions?
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# [18:04] <plinss> ack shepazu
# [18:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:04] <dael> doug: We have a couple of observers watching how to WG runs. If anyone has questions, we can talk afterwards, but I wanted to let you know.
# [18:04] <dael> Topic: F2F
# [18:05] <andrey-bloomberg> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/new-york-2015
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: We're light on agenda, so please add items to the wiki.
# [18:05] * shepazu notes that we did ask the chairs for permission
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: andrey-bloomberg logistics?
# [18:05] <dael> andrey-bloomberg: I wrote an explination as to what you should do when you arrive so you don't get lost. You want to use the courtyard entrance.
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# [18:06] <dael> andrey-bloomberg: It's critical for me to get your name on the wiki since our security is tight. I could use the actual person from Apple. If it'll be last minute, please send me an e-mail. I don't want people without a badge and log in.
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:06] <dael> hober: It'll be Simon from Apple.
# [18:06] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
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# [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:07] <dael> andrey-bloomberg: I put my email and phone on the page, so please contact me. Inside the building is a jungle. When you're at the front desk, take an elevator to the 6th and then we're on the 28th floor. You have to go to the 29th floor and walk down.
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# [18:07] <dael> andrey-bloomberg: I think that's it.
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# [18:07] * fantasai a bit late, trying to call in
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Any last minute questions or issues for the F2F?
# [18:07] <JohnMcLear> <- an observer fwiw
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: It looks like fantasai is calling in and we need her for the next three items.
# [18:07] <dael> Topic: Publishing a new LC for Flexbox.
# [18:08] * shepazu will be in NYC for another meeting on May 20, happy to hang out with any CSS folks while I'm there
# [18:08] <astearns> +1 to publish
# [18:08] <dael> ??: The answer is yes.
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen: What is there to talk about?
# [18:08] <astearns> s/??/florian/
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Obj to publishing?
# [18:08] * fantasai zakim, IPcaller is fantasai
# [18:08] * Zakim +fantasai; got it
# [18:08] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish a new LC of Flexbox
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: Clarifying 'justify-content' resolution
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: The issue witht he resolution was that stretch would compute to itself but be treated as flex-start, but my proposal was that it would compute to flex-start and we'd revisit if there was a problem. It would get computed as the exact same behavior.
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Propsal was since the current initial value is flex-start, we are changing it to auto in the box alignment and we were thinking it would be better if we had auto compute to flex-start so that it resolved the same value as an unset justify-content value.
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: There were reservations on doing the comupation, but there were reservations about compat issues as well. It seemed easier for authors. That was the proposal, but it wasn't recorded that way so I wanted to see if there were issues.
# [18:11] <fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/property-dependencies
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: I think in general it's a good thing to do the computing, but we need more tooling down the road to manage dependency and loops. But that's a tooling issue we should solve eventually. I don't think this is a bad design pattern. I'm all for it.
# [18:11] * fantasai it needs updating, but we have this page, too
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# [18:11] <dael> plinss: To be clear. Stretch computes to flex-start?
# [18:12] <fantasai> 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items with 'display: flex'
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: Any objections to that proposal?
# [18:12] <dael> RESOLVED: 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items with 'display: flex'
# [18:12] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:12] * fantasai was just about to ask where ChrisL was ;)
# [18:12] <dael> Topic: Refactoring Display
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: We don't have TabAtkins, he nominated fantasai
# [18:13] <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0098.html
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: Everyone is new to the topic here. fantasai message made it clear for me.
# [18:13] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html
# [18:13] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html
# [18:13] <fantasai> ^ my message
# [18:13] <Zakim> - +1.317.418.aabb
# [18:13] <Florian> fantasai: I know we have a wiki page, but the fact that it lags behind the specs is one reason why I would welcome tooling. (another reason is that bikeshed autogenerating inline dependency tables would be nice)
# [18:13] * ChrisL was sorting out *two* broken pubrules systems
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: If you load my message it gives the proposed syntax. The idea is we have a flow value for display inside and flow-root.
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: This gives us a switch we've wanted for a long time to a BFC root.
# [18:14] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
# [18:14] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/05/13-css-irc#T16-15-58
# [18:14] * shepazu great that we now have a choice about which broken publication system to struggle with
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: This gives us all of the combinations. The things that participate by default are inline. This solves a lot of problems and we no longer have block-level. I think it's a good proposal and I suggest that we take it.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: It keeps the general concept of inside and outside. It's a better division of the values. I like it.
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: In additions to a switch for BFC we wanted a switch for containing block. Does that make sense to fold in here?
# [18:15] <dael> ??: Position-block?
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Yeah.
# [18:16] <astearns> s/??/rossen/
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: I think it would be sep. because any type of box can be a container. If we want to caputure abspos, the thing we should tackle in the positioning draft, and we prob don't want it the same switch as controls internal contents. You might want to switch between grid and flex, but still want it to be an abspos capture. We can add that later if it needs to be folded in.
# [18:17] * liam zakim, call liam-617
# [18:17] * Zakim ok, liam; the call is being made
# [18:17] <fantasai> s/would/should/
# [18:17] <Zakim> +Liam
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: That is more linked to the containment prop then this one.
# [18:17] <fantasai> s/container/abspos container/
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: Fair enough.
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: Other comments?
# [18:17] <dael> Rossen: I agree with fantasai. The positioning and layout should be sep. and establishing positioning through whatever prop we decide should be keep seperate.
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: Comments on the original proposal?
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: Org. sounds reasonable too.
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: Any objections?
# [18:18] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins proposal
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: Is this a spec we'll pub any time?
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: We need to go through another check to make sure it's in a consistant state, but we can do it soon. When do you need it by?
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: I don't nec. need it, but it becomes relevent to other modules so I think it would be relevent to up the heartbeat of pub.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: The main thing we've done is combine display inside and outside and this came up. Now that we have this resolution we can publish an update in a couple of weeks.
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: That'll be great.
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: grid-template-areas and dot seq.
# [18:19] <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0473.html
# [18:19] <dael> plinss: There was a prop on www-style
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: On the org. template syntax each named tempate was a single letter. Then we had the issue of what is a letter and there was a prop to change that to identifiers which we accepted. Org. if you place-held a spot but without a name it was a single dot, but this was that you allow a seq. of dots just so that it's more visible and fills up space.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: This is reasonable to me unless there's backwards compat.
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: I think this is a good prop too. It def. won't set up backwards.
# [18:21] <astearns> I think it's fine too
# [18:21] <dael> s/up/us
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: Anyone else? Obj?
# [18:21] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept proposal to allow multiple dots
# [18:21] <dael> Topic: Brackets for grid line names
# [18:21] <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0103.html
# [18:21] <Zakim> - +1.434.882.aacc
# [18:22] <Zakim> - +1.434.882.aadd
# [18:22] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
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# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I was talking with astearns at the last F2F. Right now we're using paran and he pointed out brackets would be easier to read instead of nested parens. Seemed reasonable, so I suggested it on the ML
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I think TabAtkins is in favor here
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I have no strong opinion.
# [18:22] <dael> Rossen: I can live with either.
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: Should we revisit when here's here?
# [18:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:23] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [18:23] <dael> astearns: I don't think it matters much either way.
# [18:23] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:23] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:23] * shepazu requests some conflict so the visitors can see conflict resolution :) we want blood on the floor!
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: There's a issue with backwards compat if anyone is using this already.
# [18:23] <astearns> (but I have a slight preference for the brackets)
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen: Is there any impl of this?
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: Good question.
# [18:24] <Zakim> +Alex.a
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen: We're not impl it. For the time being it doesn't matter. As long as the syntax and behavior makes sense in the overall model, it should be fine. Once we get to impl I'm sure we'll revisit a lot of it and I'm sure we won't be alone. For the time being let's move forward and accept.
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: And this is grouping line names everywhere?
# [18:24] * Bert zakim, alex.a is me
# [18:24] * Zakim +Bert; got it
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Yes
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# [18:24] <dael> Rossen: Do we have any other incedents of this?
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: I don't think we do anywhere.
# [18:24] * Bert thought there was no telcon today. Sorry.
# [18:25] <dael> plinss: We use bare brackets as attribute selectors.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: That's in selectors.
# [18:25] <dael> plinss: Yeah.
# [18:25] <dael> plinss: So Obj to switching from paren. to brackets for grid line names?
# [18:25] <dael> RESOLVED: switch from parenthesis to brackets for grid line names
# [18:25] <dael> plinss: That's the end of the agenda.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: We have a pending conversation about renaming defaults. We may want to bikeshed
# [18:26] <dael> plinss: Anyone have strong contenders?
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: I proposed default-value which hasn't been shot down.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: There were other things. Using UA or origin or reset. There have been a lot of opinions and everyone has favorites.
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: We need more brianstorming.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: Or pick something and move on.
# [18:27] * astearns we need an example of on-call bikeshedding for our observers
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: I'm happy to have a discussion if there's something to discuss. Do we have a short list of best candidates?
# [18:27] <shepazu> s/brianstorming/brainstorming/
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: I'm trying to remeber which ones were like/dislike so no. Unless you just want mine on the short list :)
# [18:27] <BradK> I has 'clear' or 'cleared'
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: It doesn't sound like wer'e getting traction. Maybe put it on the wiki for the F2F?
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: That sounds like a good topic.
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: We can get champions for the top three and mud wrestle or something.
# [18:28] <shepazu> q+
# [18:28] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: What'st he status of CR publications? We have several in queue. Variable, will-change, and maybe more.
# [18:29] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:29] <dael> ChrisL: I'm working on them. I send you a thing in IRC back channels and I think we should be able to get the doc you want tomorrow. It has had a lot of problems.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: Same for UI?
# [18:29] <dael> ChrisL: Yeah, they all broke. I found some of the causes.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: Quick reminder to everyone that CSS UI is prob. getting to what would would have called LC so please take time to review it.
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: When you post the announcement of the publication say we plan to take it to CR in X days
# [18:30] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:30] <Zakim> -??P7
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: Yep, we will once ChrisL manages to publish, but I wanted to get everyone in the WG thinking on it.
# [18:30] <dael> ChrisL: It should opefully be for Thursday
# [18:31] <Zakim> -Liam
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: With to CR in "X days" should we discuss X?
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: If the WG has revied I'm fine with short.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: Do 6 weeks. That's F2F and recovery
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: I'm okay with that.
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: That's a reasonable fake-LC period
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: We're not ready to exit CR so there's no need to rush.
# [18:32] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: We all know existing takes a while.
# [18:32] <shepazu> q+
# [18:32] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P7 is me.
# [18:32] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: Unless anyone has anything else, that's it for the week.
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: I have F2F topics
# [18:32] <dael> Topic: styling ranges
# [18:32] <shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/rangefinder/
# [18:32] <dael> shepazu: I want to introduce styling dom ranges. I wanted to make you guys aware.
# [18:33] <ChrisL> doug (and guests) we normally run over time, instead of running out of agenda after 30 minutes
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: In short we had vaguly talked about this. We'd do it through some way where we can name the ranges and select and you'd be restiricted to ::selection styling
# [18:33] <dael> shepazu: I think we've talked about that, but maybe not to the WG.
# [18:34] <dael> shepazu: I wanted to make you aware that we have the web annotation WG wth the range finder API. It's like a find in page where it would find a range and we want to style it. We talked about the mechinism. fantasai desc it.
# [18:34] <dael> shepazu: I'm wondering what the next steps to moving it forward would be. A formal prop? Meeting?
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: We need something we can look at. We can sort out later if it's stand alone or in a diff spec.
# [18:34] <dael> shepazu: Who should I contact about bringing this to the next stage.
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: Prob CSS Psuedo.
# [18:35] <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
# [18:35] <dael> shepazu: And who is the editor?
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: Me
# [18:35] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
# [18:35] <dael> shepazu: I'll touch base offline.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It would prob. be next level.
# [18:35] <dael> shepazu: That's fine.
# [18:35] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:35] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:35] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:35] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
# [18:35] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: That's it for the week. Safe travels. Please remember to keep the wiki updated and add topics to the agenda. See everyone next week.
# [18:35] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:35] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:35] * Parts: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:35] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:35] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
# [18:35] <Zakim> -bcampbell
# [18:35] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:35] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:35] * Quits: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 31.6.0/20150325203137]")
# [18:35] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:35] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:35] <Florian> fantasai: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/22
# [18:35] <fantasai> Yay, that was a fun call.
# [18:35] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaaa
# [18:36] <Zakim> - +1.831.337.aaee
# [18:36] <Zakim> -tgraham
# [18:36] <Florian> I made this Pull Request on css-text-decor level 3 earlier, and that was bad, so that's the level 4 Pull Request
# [18:36] <Zakim> -hyojin
# [18:36] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:36] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:36] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, alex_antennahouse, Florian, astearns, tgraham, +1.631.398.aaaa, adenilson, bcampbell, hyojin, +1.317.418.aabb, hober, +1.434.882.aacc, [Bloomberg],
# [18:36] <Zakim> ... +1.434.882.aadd, MikeMiller, BradK, Doug_Schepers, Rossen, +1.831.337.aaee, gregwhitworth, fantasai, ChrisL, Liam, Alex, Bert
# [18:37] <fantasai> Florian: Should it also skip leading spaces?
# [18:38] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [18:38] <Florian> The (vaguely described) use cases I'm aware of would only skip the trailing ones, but I'm not opposed to another value for leading spaces as well
# [18:39] <hyojin> I hope that the f2f meeting will proceed as planned well. See you next time :)
# [18:39] <Florian> fantasai: for an example of use cases where you skip trailing but not leading, there's "Do what MS word does".
# [18:42] <Florian> fantasai: so I'm quite sure it shouldn't be a single value doing both leading and trailing. But having both separately sounds ok.
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# [18:44] <Florian> fantasai: Come to think of it, we probably do want both. The reasoning for underlining leading spaces but not trailing ones is that when you're left-aligning, leading spaces are noticeable, so it's ok to underline them, but trailing spaces are not, so it's not.
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# [18:44] <Florian> fantasai: but this is obviously reversed when you're right aligning.
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# [18:46] <Florian> so I think we should have both, and we should have an auto value, which does 'object' or 'object leading-spaces' or 'object trailing-spaces' depending on various other properties computed values
# [18:47] <Florian> at the same time, MS Word and friends only ever seem to skip trailing spaces, so maybe I'm over thinking this
# [18:48] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:52] <fantasai> Florian: maybe they just didn't think about it
# [18:52] <Florian> maybe
# [18:53] <Florian> fantasai: so, do you want the pull request updated with both, and maybe we take leading-spaces out later if nobody actually wants it, or should we keep it as is for now, and add leading if someone asks for it?
# [18:53] <Florian> we can also leave it out but put an issue
# [18:53] <fantasai> let's at least put in an issue
# [18:58] <Florian> fantasai: issue added, PR updated.
# [18:59] <Florian> fantasai: and if we want the auto value (I think we do), we should decide what it does after sorting this out: http://www.w3.org/mid/D5DE724A-F45D-479A-8289-CFC3F9E3C8DB@rivoal.net
# [19:00] <Florian> which should be a fun topic for the F2F
# [19:04] <fantasai> okay
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