/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-05-21 / end

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# Session Start: Thu May 21 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:00] <fantasai> jdaggett: Don't understand for misspelled font how that helps anything
# [00:00] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you try to render with it, it won't work
# [00:00] <BradK> Looking at a font affects if it will load right away
# [00:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's why it returns false. Cuz it won't work
# [00:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Case is, you call check("misspelled") or check("systemfont")
# [00:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you use John's preferred semantic, "whether or not need to load something", both will return false, because nothing needs to be loaded
# [00:01] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you want different sematics, what's the use case/
# [00:01] <fantasai> jdaggett: Where does this improve your code?
# [00:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The use case is if it returns true, you can just start using the stuff
# [00:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: At bare minimum, system font needs to return true
# [00:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: because asking system whether can use '16px Arial', if it returns false that's confusing
# [00:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I have a font-face value if I can start drawing with it check() should return true, otherwise false
# [00:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Check returns true if you can render with the font
# [00:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's also what you're saying
# [00:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Check returns true if all the fonts are loaded
# [00:03] <fantasai> jdaggett: check() returns true if it's always available
# [00:03] <fantasai> jdaggett: Check on a blank list should always return true
# [00:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Who's arguing what here?
# [00:04] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-loading/#font-face-set-check
# [00:04] <jdaggett> yes
# [00:05] <fantasai> fantasai: If I check() for 16px Arial, does it return true or false?
# [00:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: true
# [00:05] <fantasai> jdaggett: true
# [00:05] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [00:05] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you say check() Misspelled, should return true
# [00:06] <jdaggett> check("16px arial") should return true
# [00:06] <fantasai> because you don't need to load anything to get its expected behavior
# [00:06] <fantasai> Florian: So John's semantic is that it returns true because it's already in it's final state?
# [00:06] <jdaggett> check("16px misspelled fontname") should return true
# [00:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yeah, any load you do won't help
# [00:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That seems terrible to me [...]
# [00:07] <jdaggett> check("16px misspelled fontname,arial") should return true
# [00:07] * fantasai TabAtkins paste email link pls right now thatnks
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Z9X5Orqq
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> That spec seems crazy to me - it means I can't tell the difference between a font that is ready to be used and what is effectively a gibberish string! This turns typos into terrible hard-to-detect bugs, and makes relying on the call for any reason extremely dangerous.
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Plausible example of the danger:
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> 1) We start using Roboto on the SRP
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> 2) In our various page elements for various reasons we start calling document.fonts.check('400 12pt Roboto') in a bunch of places
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> 3) We later decide to migrate to using "Roboto Neue" instead of Roboto for whatever reason.
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> 4) We modify our CSS to use this new font, and find and update most but not all of the old check calls, because we have a lot of code and it's easy to miss stuff.
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> 5) We now have code that calls document.fonts.check('400 12pt Roboto') which erroneously returns true even though the font isn't available, causing all sorts of havoc.
# [00:08] <fantasai> </blockquote>
# [00:08] <jdaggett> the check method should not be a spellchecker!!! :P
# [00:08] <fantasai> heycam: Comes back to what is check for
# [00:09] <fantasai> heycam: And exactly how would be using return value of that method
# [00:09] <fantasai> heycam: Makes me think that the name check() is too confusing
# [00:09] <fantasai> heycam: People could get confused as to what check() is meant to mean
# [00:09] <Florian> so check needs to be renamed into either "needsLoading" or "canUse"
# [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Given it's a trivial case, it doesn't matter too much
# [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Suggest straw polling
# [00:10] <fantasai> fantasai: I think heycam's point is important
# [00:10] <fantasai> Andreyr: I agree with Tab
# [00:10] <fantasai> heycam: I don't think this is unimportant
# [00:10] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [00:10] <fantasai> heycam: I think the way you're expecting this API to be used really does influence whether this should return true or false
# [00:10] <fantasai> heycam: Would like to flesh out use cases of what check() is meant to be used for
# [00:11] <fantasai> heycam: Still not exactly sure what you meant to use it for
# [00:11] <fantasai> heycam: Can we draw with this text?
# [00:11] <fantasai> heycam: Doesn't seem settled enough
# [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: outside of this trivial case, doesn't matter
# [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Only case where two meanings diverge
# [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: However, what if we just throw in that case?
# [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You've clearly done something wrong if we go through all fonts in your list and we can't find any of them
# [00:11] <Florian> +1 to TabAtkins
# [00:12] <fantasai> heycam: Really depends on what check is doing
# [00:12] * Quits: ed (~ed@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:12] <fantasai> heycam: Does it mean "Do I need to do any loads now?"
# [00:12] <fantasai> heycam: vs "Can I render now"
# [00:12] <fantasai> heycam: might not matter if can't find any fonts in the list
# [00:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There's no reason why font matching should return empty set
# [00:13] <fantasai> heycam: Disagree.
# [00:13] <fantasai> heycam: Suppose you have toolkit that downloads a bunch of fonts
# [00:13] <fantasai> heycam: later want to draw a particular string
# [00:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: There are a lot of system fonts, on mobile device, they don't have any of the fonts on that list
# [00:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: Don't think should throw in that situation
# [00:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: Could use "Arial" or whatever, not going to get any of those fonts
# [00:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: Shouldn't be a special error case
# [00:14] <Florian> This is a valid use case for having true | false | file_not_found
# [00:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you put a final fallback, then something always matches
# [00:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: check() is for "do I need to do anything for this", do I need to load
# [00:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I disagree with the characterization
# [00:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: In all other cases, the two interpretations are the same ansewr. Only case where they're different.
# [00:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I have specific feedback from a user that this is confusing, want to handle that well
# [00:15] <fantasai> plinss: Conversation between 2-3 ppl at this point
# [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Cameron, do you understand the system fonts piece?
# [00:16] * fantasai is so confused
# [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: 2 issues
# [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: one about check() method in triival case
# [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Other one is system fonts flag
# [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Do we need to talk more about system fonts flag?
# [00:16] <fantasai> heycam: I think the wording of name of flag is different from how actually set in checked algorithmn
# [00:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: System font flag is unnecessary if you simply consider system fonts as trivially loaded
# [00:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: Don't think it needs to be in the algorithm
# [00:18] <fantasai> Topic: Mapping Thing
# [00:18] * jdaggett more topics?!?
# [00:18] <fantasai> Andreyr: For developers trying to build mapping solutions
# [00:18] <fantasai> andreyr: If I do google maps or bin maps, stuck with that solution. Locked in
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: would be nice to have some kind of markup that would describe layers of the maps
# [00:19] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: e.g. ground layer, road layer, traffic layer, etc.
# [00:19] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: As I explained in the thread, the system fonts flag lets me get the right behavior in check("16px Ariel") (true) and the right behavior in load("16px Ariel") (not waiting for any promises).
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: can annotate with different semantics
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: CSS-like style sheet
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: Pretty good usage
# [00:19] * fantasai needs a link
# [00:19] <TabAtkins> https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/docs/latest.md
# [00:19] <fantasai> andreyr: mapping products could plug data from various places
# [00:20] <fantasai> andreyr: From developers' point of view, it's a huge benefit
# [00:20] <fantasai> andreyr: Ton of ppl looking for this to be a standard
# [00:20] <heycam> TabAtkins, I think all jdaggett is saying is that if you agree with the check method returning true for system fonts (and non-existent fonts), then that obviates the need for a flag altogether
# [00:20] <fantasai> andreyr: Asking to see if group is somewhat interested in this.
# [00:20] <fantasai> andreyr: Can give example of some labels
# [00:20] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [00:21] <fantasai> glazou: I'm very interested in the fact that someone is reusing the general CSS syntax and grammar to do something else
# [00:21] <fantasai> glazou: I've done such a thing in the past
# [00:21] <fantasai> glazou: Very well reusable for other things than CSS
# [00:21] <fantasai> glazou: I don't exclude possibility that we will kill XSLT in favor of solution with CSS syntax
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> heycam: Ah, yeah, if you don't have the flag, so that system fonts become "unknown" (returning an empty list from the algo), then sure, if system fonts and unknown fonts have the same result we can avoid it.
# [00:21] <fantasai> glazou: We could probably extract a few things about requirements for CSS grammar
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> heycam: That means that the question just becomes a trivial result of the decision going one way or another, not a separate issue to discuss. ^_^
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: Things we don't do right now because our only use case is CSS
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: ... looking at existing CSS parsers
# [00:22] <heycam> TabAtkins, indeed
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: Can only do that if general syntax and grammar allow it
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> heycam: This was very unclear to me.
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: So look into that
# [00:22] <fantasai> Florian: I think it's not about getting this in CSS, but getting the syntax that is used here in CSS
# [00:22] <heycam> TabAtkins, I think the best way to advance the discussion is to see code fragments for how check() is intended to be used... i.e. seeing what people do in response to the return value
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: I see that as another client of the syntax and grammar modules
# [00:22] <fantasai> glazou: You're using rulesets, declarations, properties, values
# [00:23] <fantasai> glazou: But have very specific stuff
# [00:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: I was at Libre Graphics meeting
# [00:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: There was an OSS project called metapolator
# [00:23] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [00:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: Figures out where the centerline is, allows multiple wieghts
# [00:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: This is UFO fonts in XML
# [00:23] * fantasai ?
# [00:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: I made up a language calle dCascading Property Sheets,
# [00:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: it had properties, at-rules, etc.
# [00:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: CSS syntax for entirely different thing
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> heycam: Specifically, we need to see what people would want to do if they misspelled the font - if they'd want to respond to the "there's nothing here" specially, or just go through and draw.
# [00:24] <fantasai> leaverou: There was a project in my research group that used CSS syntax to connect DOM trees together
# [00:24] <liam> [ http://metapolator.com/home/ ]
# [00:24] <fantasai> leaverou: Also CAS - Cascading Attribute Sheets would help with this
# [00:24] <fantasai> s/help/use/
# [00:25] * TabAtkins http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b4K_0
# [00:25] <fantasai> glazou: What do you want from us?
# [00:25] <heycam> TabAtkins, but also how they intend to use the return value in other cases, since that might help us decide what to do with the misspelled/system font cases
# [00:25] <fantasai> andreyr: If becomes a standard, then more people would use it
# [00:25] <fantasai> andreyr: If vendors implement that, then
# [00:25] <fantasai> andreyr: could mash up bing and google maps
# [00:25] <fantasai> andreyr: In Bloomberg we combine maps from different orgs
# [00:25] <leaverou> s/Also CAS - Cascading Attribute Sheets would help with this/Also with this kind of thing polyfills for CAS (Cascading Attribute Sheets — Tab’s proposal) would be much easier to code/
# [00:25] <fantasai> glazou: Are you suggesting that all the properties can be retrieved from CSS and SVG properties?
# [00:26] <fantasai> glazou: Your text name looks like content property
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> heycam: In all other cases, if check() is true, you start drawing. If it's false, I guess you'd either avoid drawing, or call load(), depending on what you're wanting to do.
# [00:26] <fantasai> glazou: It could proably better align with SVG and SVG
# [00:26] <fantasai> glazou: You said turn it into a standard
# [00:26] <fantasai> glazou: That wouldn't be CSS, right.
# [00:26] <fantasai> glazou: It's another standard
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> The former means a misspelling returning false is fine. The latter means returning false is bad; the load() wouldn't do anything.
# [00:26] <fantasai> Bert: There's a number of things that shared and others not shared
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Which is why I suggested throwing, actually.
# [00:26] * Rossen is now known as Rossen_away
# [00:26] <fantasai> Bert: E.g. selectors, if they need new selectors, have a single selectors space
# [00:27] <fantasai> Bert: Styling lines along edge of road on the map
# [00:27] <fantasai> Bert: Those not need to be shared
# [00:27] <fantasai> Bert: But then also styling font of labels.
# [00:27] <fantasai> Bert: Could reduce duplication by referencing CSS
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> It gives us a tri-state result - "at least one of the fonts you're asking for is ready", "none of the fonts are ready", "lol what even is this shit"
# [00:27] <fantasai> Bert: Could look for overlap, but other things, nice proprety but not in our scope
# [00:27] <fantasai> glazou: It's a naive question...
# [00:27] <fantasai> glazou: Is Bloomberg somehow behind this?
# [00:28] <fantasai> Andreyr: No. Multipe OSS actually doing this. Just happened to stumble upon it
# [00:28] <heycam> TabAtkins, yes, what you want to do in response to true/false are exactly the things I'd like to see. I think an issue is that there may be valid use cases for correctly spelled but missing font where it's not an error situation
# [00:28] <fantasai> plinss: We have prior art of adding properties to CSS from SVG
# [00:28] * heycam -> breakfast; let's do this on the list
# [00:28] <fantasai> plinss: If web-exposed, then might need to add more properties
# [00:28] <fantasai> plinss: But could have a task force or whatever
# [00:28] <tantek> q+ to mention relationship with HTML <area> and <map>
# [00:28] * Zakim sees fantasai, tantek on the speaker queue
# [00:28] <fantasai> glazou: We would need a ocntributor. we know nothing about htis
# [00:29] <tantek> ack fantasai
# [00:29] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [00:30] <fantasai> fantasai: Question - is this something that needs to be built into the layout engine? or is this something that would go into some kind of SVG-output framework?
# [00:30] <fantasai> andreyr: both
# [00:30] <fantasai> glazou: So this
# [00:30] <fantasai> ::label {
# [00:30] <fantasai> text-name: [name];
# [00:30] <fantasai> text-face-name: 'Arial regular';
# [00:30] <fantasai> }
# [00:31] <fantasai> glazou: Are they wanting to change this to match CSS syntax?
# [00:31] <fantasai> glazou: Because this is content and font-family properties
# [00:31] <fantasai> fantasai: ...
# [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: I like the use cases here
# [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: Other cases would find it useful
# [00:31] <plinss> ack tantek
# [00:31] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention relationship with HTML <area> and <map>
# [00:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: e.g. want to style name of someone in an image
# [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: it's kindof like a map
# [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: happy to see you bring this up
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: good for this group to look at
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: expertise to do this is here
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: In addition, think it would be helpful to find the limitations of where things like HTML's imagemaps <area> and <map>, don't quite let you do what you want
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: Think there's potential for reuse
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: I would like to see problems solved, especially for use case of marking up a photo with a note
# [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: e.g. something here, put a label there
# [00:33] <fantasai> tantek: hyperlink to name of person
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: When I've mentioned a few examples, thought that CSS grammar and cascading and inheritance are a good framework for other languages
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: Not for incorporating this into CSS
# [00:33] * glazou needs to leave in 10mins max
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: I think a lot of languages invented that follow this framework
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: Offer those as tools for them to use in their languages
# [00:33] * tantek glazou timebox?
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: events, property applies, doesn't apply
# [00:33] <fantasai> leaverou: then they have tools to implement this to CSS
# [00:34] <fantasai> leaverou: I think it's out of scope for us to add every CSSlike-framework-syntax-language's properties into CSS
# [00:34] <fantasai> plinss: If we have a reason to pull maps in as a native part of the web platform, then makes sense to bring things into CSS
# [00:35] <fantasai> Florian: I'm saying, are we interested in cooperating with these people? yes.
# [00:35] <fantasai> Florian: But what kind of cooperation?
# [00:35] <fantasai> Florian: We definitely want to help groups like these make CSS-like languages
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# [00:35] <fantasai> Florian: In addition, for this groups, if this is [...] then we might synchronize with that
# [00:35] <leaverou> s/leaverou: events, property applies, doesn't apply/leaverou: expose the CSS parser, the mechanism for specificity, cascading, inheritance, have events like propertyapplied and propertyunapplied/
# [00:35] <fantasai> Florian: But we need to discuss whether that's the case
# [00:36] <fantasai> plinss: Houdini should discuss use case of building CSS-like languages with syntax, cascading, etc.
# [00:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Not sure what this is about, but there's some cases where it might not be appropriate to try to involve in the CSSWG, but maybe create own standards group, here at W3C, or elsewhere, or ad-hoc
# [00:38] <fantasai> fantasai: E.g. there were industries that got together to design an XML syntax for interchange of information specific to their industry.
# [00:38] <fantasai> fantasai: They built their own standard for that format. Didn't need to get involved in XML Core WG
# [00:39] <fantasai> tantek: Consider a community group
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# [00:40] <fantasai> plinss: Thank you to Andrey and Bloomberg for hosting.
# [00:40] <fantasai> Meeting adjourned.
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# [00:51] <tantek> IndieWeb meetup details: https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
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# [05:45] * Topic is 'CSS WG ftf, hosted by Bloomberg in NYC ; https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/new-york-2015#agenda'
# [05:45] * Set by plinss on Wed May 20 19:14:59
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# [05:55] * Topic is 'CSS WG ftf, hosted by Bloomberg in NYC ; https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/new-york-2015#agenda'
# [05:55] * Set by plinss on Wed May 20 19:14:59
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# Session Close: Fri May 22 00:00:01 2015

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