/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-06-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jun 17 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:06] <Florian> TabAtkins: when we have a boolean MQ, for which we suspect there might be more values later, but we don't quite know what they'll be yet, it is a bit tricky to name the values. one should be none (not 0. argh), but the other is less obvious. So it would be good for us to make sure in the spec that boolean media features can be created without having actually named values. The only legal syntax until they are later expanded beyond boolean is (featu
# [00:06] <Florian> re-name)
# [00:06] <Florian> sounds good?
# [00:06] <TabAtkins> Yeah, for any future booleans, completely agree.
# [00:07] <TabAtkins> And if we add text supporting that, we can deprecate-but-require-support the current values
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> So we don't have that hideous "Values: <number>" in monochrome and others.
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, monochrome isn't even boolean.
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> He's just using it wrong, straight up.
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> (I mean, in practice it is. But (monochrome:1) would be false in, say, a Nook, which can display several grays.)
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# [01:06] <fantasai> Someone tell Florian when he gets back that css3-background defines hit testing for border-radius...
# [01:06] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/#corner-clipping
# [01:07] <fantasai> The statement is general enough that it applies to all the things mentioned, within reason.
# [01:08] <fantasai> And border-image does not capture mouse events
# [01:08] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/#the-border-image-outset
# [01:08] <fantasai> astearns: ^
# [01:09] <astearns> yeah, I did notice the hit testing in #corner-clipping
# [01:10] <astearns> fantasai: should the 'border edge' term have an official definition and anchor to link to?
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# [01:44] <fantasai> astearns: Maybe. The whole spec needs to be converted to bikeshed
# [01:44] <fantasai> astearns: border edge as a term is defined in CSS2.1
# [01:44] <fantasai> astearns: There wasn't a rectangular version vs. non-rectangular version in 2.1 though
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# [01:53] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
# [01:53] <jdaggett> mawnin
# [01:53] <jdaggett> and you are in...?
# [01:53] <fantasai> London
# [01:53] <fantasai> Flying to Bergen tomorrow
# [01:53] <jdaggett> oh, delightful!
# [01:54] <fantasai> Yep. I get to see citoyen :)
# [01:54] <jdaggett> body in tokyo, head still over siberia, wandering off to new england tomorrow... :P
# [01:54] * fantasai citoyen worked on bidi testing for Opera back in the day
# [01:54] <jdaggett> nice...
# [01:54] <fantasai> she's also generally awesome... :)
# [01:55] <jdaggett> mmm, summer in norway...
# [01:55] <fantasai> I figured you didn't even adjust to Amsterdam
# [01:55] <jdaggett> yeah, it's not so bad
# [01:55] <fantasai> just had a flopped up sleep schedule for 48 hours or something
# [01:55] <fantasai> heh
# [01:55] <jdaggett> just enough to be useful for sleeping on the flight to the states...
# [01:55] <fantasai> :)
# [01:56] <fantasai> I made it to normal-person east coast time last night
# [01:56] <fantasai> (as opposed to 2am bedtime, which is where I tend to end up localtime)
# [01:56] <jdaggett> :)
# [01:56] <jdaggett> +1 for the column-gap thingy
# [01:56] <jdaggett> btw
# [01:56] <fantasai> morning flight tomorrow, so that should kick me into CEDT
# [01:57] <fantasai> oh, yay :)
# [01:57] <fantasai> Now if we can just bikeshed the shorthand successfully ;)
# [01:57] <jdaggett> i'm sure florian will have some very florid ideas...
# [01:57] <jdaggett> :D
# [01:58] <jdaggett> as our resident florid property value proposer...
# [02:02] <jdaggett> we should post rachel's talk to the list btw
# [02:02] <jdaggett> when the video is up
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# [02:06] <fantasai> good idea
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# [17:14] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG conf call 17-jun-2015 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0186.html'
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# [17:14] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/17-css-irc
# [17:14] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:14] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
# [17:14] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:24] <Florian> koji: are you online?
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# [17:25] <koji> florian: yes, are you good to talk?
# [17:25] <Florian> koji: yes, I was trying to reach you on skype
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# [17:38] <glazou> Florian: fun fact , if you use Facebook, go to a friend’s personal page and see the box on the left hand side of the page with current activity, studies, birthdate… It’s all user-select: none…
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# [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P1
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P1 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:58] <astearns> zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +astearns; got it
# [17:58] <Florian> glazou: that's nasty. I'd probaly user-stylesheet my way out of that if I was using facebook in the first place.
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:59] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.908.982.aabb
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aacc
# [17:59] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aadd
# [17:59] <Florian> Zakim, I am probably aabb
# [17:59] <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am probably aabb', Florian
# [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:59] <antenna> zakim, aadd is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +antenna; got it
# [17:59] <Florian> Zakim, I am aabb
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P9
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P11
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [18:00] <bcampbell> Zakim [IPCaller] is me
# [18:00] <tgraham> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
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# [18:00] <TabAtkins> Last minute regrets; personal stuff
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# [18:00] <bcampbell> Zakim not sure who is me but I'm here
# [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: any last minute thoughts on grid issues?
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# [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.519.513.aaee
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P16
# [18:02] <adenilson> Zakim, ?P16 is me.
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named '?P16'
# [18:02] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P16 is me.
# [18:02] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:02] <alex_antennahouse> Zakim, ??P2 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
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# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see astearns, glazou, dael, Florian, +1.479.764.aacc, dauwhe, antenna, plinss, ??P9, tgraham, SimonSapin, smfr, +1.519.513.aaee, alex_antennahouse, adenilson,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft]
# [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see tdresser, adenilson, alex_antennahouse, myles, smfr, tgraham, bcampbell, dael, antenna, renoirb, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, lajava, antonp, Florian, svillar, dauwhe,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... dbaron, plh, Ms2ger, shepazu, rego, paul___irish, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, sylvaing, shans, Rossen, plinss, leaverou, projector, liam, Hixie_, decadance, krijnhoetmer,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, fantasai, SimonSapin, shane, koji, dstockwell, rbyers, ElijahLynn, cabanier, astearns, krit, mvujovic______, ppk___, slightlyoff, iank, nikos, lmclister______,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... achicu_____
# [18:03] <dael> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: yes, dunno, yes (to the three gap issues)
# [18:03] * astearns someone just won the game!
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# [18:03] * dauwhe a giant mosquito!
# [18:03] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> dael, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: astearns (15%), glazou (36%), +1.479.764.aacc (14%)
# [18:04] * smfr Zakim needs a “who was noisy”
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:04] <koji> zakim, aaff is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:04] * dael more like a "what the heck was that"
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's get started.
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Anything to add to the agenda?
# [18:04] <dael> Topic: transform-origin UA style
# [18:05] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0109.html
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I'll handle it. There is a tentitive explination of the issue for default transform-origin for SVG elements
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: There is a problem between svg and non-svg which is 0,0 for svg and 50,50 for others.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: There is a decoration that would do the switch, or chang ehte default style sheet.
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# [18:06] <dael> glazou: krit is handling it and he has a slight preference for the option from Cameron.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: What do people thinkabout this?
# [18:06] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:06] <dael> Rossen: I was at the svg f2f last week. THe one issue that we discussed during that topic was if we don't have the auto value, what happens when you set to initial
# [18:06] * fantasai thinks Cameron's suggestion makes sense
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: The UA style sheet will get up and running the first time and when you reset the tranform-origin to initial, we are screwed.
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: That's a good point.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: My preference was to go with auto even though I don't like automagic defaults, but it will cover that use case which I believe is important.
# [18:07] <Florian> The stylesheet approach might have been fine if there was no compat concern, but there is, so auto.
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: But we have the value anyway so it must work in all cases.
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: I was more in favor of the second proposal, but that's a very good point.
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: The initial keyword computes to 0,0?
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: It computed to 50%,50% on svg elements.
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone use initial on transform-origins?
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen: I'm assuming they do.
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: It's fairly obscure. If you know it takes a position you'll put it.
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen: Working for the last 12 months on interop, initial is used a lot.
# [18:08] <fantasai> s/it/a position into it/
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: And if it's available to all CSS prop, we need to make it available. It's a question of being consistant.
# [18:09] <dael> smfr: Out of the released, do they set value to initial?
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: They're supposed to.
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: The concern is web compat. Cameron says FF and Webkit already impl it. They're evidently not hitting a problem.
# [18:10] <Florian> q+
# [18:10] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: My point was for consistancy. That they're not running into issue today, lets say in a year SVG gets more traction, the initial value is well defined and people are using it. If they do it for transform-origin they will get unexpected results.
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# [18:11] <smfr> s/Out of the released/CSS resets/
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: They will get it if they use it on anything that the UA sets a different default and we do that on a lot of things. We do that where we think initial is one thing but somewhere we set it to something else because that's the important default. There's no need for this to be more complicated.
# [18:11] <dael> hober: I agree.
# [18:11] <fantasai> s/get it/get an unexpected default/
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: I have a problem with that POV. It's a constant of CSS spec. We need to solve the 50%,50% instead of 0,0. The second is to make sure initial works correctly.
# [18:12] <Florian> q-
# [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: The question is, does the first proposal or second proposal solve both req. It seems the second is not. That's my personal opinion. It seems the first one could fix it at the cost of some change in browser impl.
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: If we had no compat issue to worry about, both solutions could be reasonably used. We are using UA style sheet for a bunch of things so there are a bunch of things where you get a different value forminitial. It means it's okay to do. But since it was brought up that doing it with the UA style sheet is done, doing elsewise would be compat issue.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: Since we don't have krit, I told him I'd issue a call for consensus.
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: Just because we don't have krit doesn't mean there aren't other SVG members.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: If we can get close to a resolution I would prefer that.
# [18:14] <fantasai> I would like to also smash the idea that the initial value of every CSS property needs to be 'auto' if we would otherwise need a UA style rule to get the right behavior. We don't do that anywhere else.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: I wanted to bring up, to contridict myself in proposing auto, it will bring the auto for animation and position kind of iffy because we'll have to allow transfor-origin to be animatable.
# [18:14] <fantasai> If we can represent the UA stylesheet without 'auto', we don't add 'auto'.
# [18:14] <Florian> +1 to fantasai
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen: We can argue both ways quite a bit. I would be okay with the second proposal, but we have to be clear that we are going against what initial is supposed to do. Or at least if people start using initial they might get unexpected results.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: YOu're suggesting the second prop with a note?
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen: I'm not opposed, yes.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: Second is the UA style sheet with a note about the danger of using initial on svg elements.
# [18:15] <fantasai> We just made applied this exact principle to cursors: minimizing the automagic in favor of using the UA style sheet. I don't understand why we are arguing in the opposite direction here.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I would prefer that. Also because what fantasai put on IRC.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: fantasai you agree?
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: The UA style sheet plus a note saying initial transform-origin for SVG elements won't lead to an expected result
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: Yes, a note or example would be helpful. It's a good idea.
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:16] <dael> RESOLVED: Adopt second suggestion from Cameron about the UA style sheet plus a note saying initial transform-origin for SVG elements won't lead to an expected result
# [18:17] <dael> Topic: % resolution for abspos vs in-flow grid items.
# [18:17] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0164.html
# [18:17] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0164.html
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: That's from fan
# [18:17] <dael> s/fan/fantasai
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: I don't have a clear thought, but I'll present.
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# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: We discussed % res in the block dimension for flexbox and in-grid items. What Mats pointed out is if you have and abspos grid item which we can do, those margins because it's abspos will have verical resolve against horz.
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: So if you position an item in a grid area, if the margins are resolved against horz or vert will depend on if it's abspos. That's pretty inconsistant, so do we want that situation or do we change abspos or grid
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: In our impl of grid, grid items are treated the same way always for % reoslution regardless of how they got to be layed out.
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: If and abspos element makes its way from the first level children of grid or somewhere deeper inside of the element chain it shouldn't matter. It's still part of the grid and will be layed out for all grid rules and this shouldn't be an exception.
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen: If we're allowing you to, for ex position and abspos item in a grid row/column, there's not reason for it not to resolve % the same way as other grid items. Same for flex.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: We're missing dbaron and TabAtkins so I don't think we should resolve, but if anyone has something to add to think about it, let's do that.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: I'm confused about the statemnt of same for flex. you don't abspos osmething into flex, do you?
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: No.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: You have something that would be flex but you abspos it away from flex?
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: I misse dthat.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: I was saying that in the flexbox case if you haev a flex item you abspos to someplace else it's ancestry is in the flex, but it's not a part of the flex box.
# [18:21] <astearns> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:22] <glazou> ECHO !!!
# [18:22] <Zakim> astearns, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.479.764.aacc (14%), [Microsoft] (90%), adenilson (69%)
# [18:22] <astearns> zakim, mute adenilson
# [18:22] <Zakim> adenilson should now be muted
# [18:22] <adenilson> sorry guys (damn mic!).
# [18:23] * glazou slaps adenilson with a wet trout :-)
# [18:23] <adenilson> ouch!
# [18:23] * glazou adenilson ;-)
# [18:23] <adenilson> :-)
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen: What I said is that the use case from Florian is correct, but it's the opp. of what we're talking about. He said we have a first child of a flex box that's abspos, but the flexbox isn't abspos. In that case the abspos flexbox item will be layed out and processed whereever it gets processed.
# [18:23] * Joins: andreyr (~andreyr@public.cloak)
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen: So what we were discussing is the opposite where a deeply nested element is abspos but also gets its position container to be grid or flex and that grid of flex is doing layout for the abspos item. SO the rules for that grid or flexbos should apply.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: That makes sense to me, yes.
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen: I just wanted to point out that there should be no difference between flex and grid.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: I think what IE currently does makes sense, but we should defer for other people.
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: If there's nothing more to say, let's move on.
# [18:25] <dael> Topic: Grid Issues
# [18:25] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0166.html
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: That was from fantasai with two items. First is row/column gap issues, second is a11y.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: There's three parts of row/column gap. First is should normal value of row-gap compute to 0.
# [18:26] <glazou> ACTION glazou: email krit about resolution item 1
# [18:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-694 - Email krit about resolution item 1 [on Daniel Glazman - due 2015-06-24].
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: There is supposed to be interpreted as a UA value, I think it's easier to authors to compute to 0. The list seems to agree, but I think we should resolve that normal computes to 0 on grid containers.
# [18:26] <fantasai> s/UA value/UA value in multicol/
# [18:26] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:26] <fantasai> s/compute to 0/compute to 0 on multi-col/
# [18:27] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (4%)
# [18:27] <fantasai> s/multi-col/grid containers/
# [18:27] <BradK> Noise always stops as soon as you ask Zakim about it
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen: I'm having a hard time getting to the e-mail
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: gregwhitworth agrees.
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: So it should be okay.
# [18:27] <BradK> One of murphys laws, I think
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: gregwhitworth replied to the list that it makes sense so I'm assuming it makes sense of MS in general.
# [18:28] <fantasai> s/of/for/
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen: gregwhitworth has opinions, but I have some too.
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:28] <dael> RESOLVED: that normal computes to 0 on multi-col on grid containers
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: This is for row-gap and column gap. We want to have a short hand. options are grid-gap, but I'm open to other suggestions.
# [18:29] <astearns> grid-gap sounds ok to me
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen: grid-gap sounds good.
# [18:29] <dael> hober: It's also consitant. track-gap would be confusing about multi-col.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: It does apply in multi-col because it's a short hand that sets row and column gap.
# [18:29] * Rossen the-gap
# [18:30] <Florian> +1 to hober
# [18:30] <dael> hober: It it applies in multi-col I'd say track-gap sounds better because it doesn't rely on another mode(?)
# [18:30] <BradK> 'gap'
# [18:30] <astearns> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:30] <adenilson> my mic is off.
# [18:30] <Zakim> astearns, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%), +1.479.764.aacc (48%), [IPcaller] (46%)
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: track is a grid layout, but not for rows and columns. Not sure that it makes it better.
# [18:30] <Florian> gap
# [18:31] <fantasai> s/layout/layout term/
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: Yep, agree with fantasai that track isn't applicaple to multi-col
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: Do we have a plan to add another property that's a better use for the word gap alone?
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: I don't know. We might want to look at the next issue. Should the shorthand reset the gap property.
# [18:31] <bcampbell> crazy echo
# [18:32] <glazou> Zakim, mute IPcaller
# [18:32] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
# [18:32] <gregwhitworth> there's a lot of echo
# [18:32] * Rossen ECHOOOooo chooo hooo ooo oo o
# [18:32] * dael can't get through the echo to scribe.
# [18:32] <glazou> Zakim, unmute IPcaller
# [18:32] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should no longer be muted
# [18:32] <fantasai> Zakim, [IPcaller] is fantasai
# [18:32] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:32] <glazou> Zakim, unmute fantasai
# [18:32] <Zakim> fantasai was not muted, glazou
# [18:32] * glazou sorry fantasai
# [18:32] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: Based on this it seems the text should be probably not a good idea for gap. We can just call it grid-gap for the general property.
# [18:33] <plinss> zakim, mute aacc
# [18:33] <Zakim> +1.479.764.aacc should now be muted
# [18:33] <glazou> thanks plinss
# [18:33] <bcampbell> aaahhhh
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: I think having the grid shorthand reset the gap property is a useful thing. The interaction with multi-col isn't a problem because you can't have an interaction. It's only column-gap that applies the multi-col. It's unlike people would try and combine multi-col and grid b/c they do very different things.
# [18:33] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [18:34] <dael> hober: So you argue people will only want to use the short hand when doing grid layout so we can name it after grid. That seems reasonable.
# [18:34] <Zakim> +??P16
# [18:34] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P16 is me.
# [18:34] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen: Did we consider something like gutter.
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen: It doesn't say gap in the name, but it describes the gap in all those layout types.
# [18:34] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:34] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:34] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: We can't use gutter without a prefix since that's confusing with the page gutter. If we have a row-gap and column-gap, the shorthand should be gap not gutter.
# [18:35] <fantasai> s/page gutter/page gutter, which is the part of the page used for binding/
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen: I'm fine with it. We can change it later.
# [18:35] <Florian> gutter -> row-gutter column-gutter
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> +1 fantasai
# [18:35] <dael> RESOLVED: GRID-GAP PROPERTY IS THE SHORTHAND FOR COLUMN-GAP AND ROW-GAP. and grid-gap resets both.
# [18:36] * dael sorry for the caps.
# [18:36] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0180.html
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: Basically, we haev a requirement that authors shouldn't use grid or flexbox reordering to reorder the source differently thant he visual order when it's not benefitial for a11y. When you're reordering you do it in the sourse. We add a conformance req. on authoring tools where if they don't change the source, that's the opt-in for the author.
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: It would be non-conformant ot have an authoring tool that lets you do layout in grid just by changing grid properties unless the author using the tool says I don't want you to reorder the source.
# [18:37] * glazou and now the chopper instead of the echo
# [18:38] <fantasai> s/lets you do layout/lets you reorder items/
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
# [18:38] <Zakim> - +1.479.764.aacc
# [18:38] <dael> bo: can you desc what an author opt-in means? I'm not sure I understand.
# [18:39] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aagg
# [18:39] <Florian> Zakim, I am aagg
# [18:39] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: The default behavior of any authoring tool that allows re-ordering using grid or flexbox, it does the re-ordering by re-ordering the source, unless the author specificallys ays I want to keep the source order the same. The dafult behavior without the author doing something to choose visual re-ordering only, would be to change the source order.
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen: I guess...this is arequiremnt that we will take. Having ordering and the ability to re-order items in those layouts is both useful and very appropriate to be done on the CSS layout. For ex. you want to re-order images backwards to show the oldest first. I don't see why you would re-order your entire file. I see the a11y, but I find it difficult to believe it would be done anyone except the CSS layer if you can do it there.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I'm not convicned this would make a huge difference on what people do, but I agree with the requirement.
# [18:42] <Rossen> s/ done anyone except/ done anywhere except/
# [18:42] <dael> hober: I am worried that the requirement makes assumptions about the UI of authoring tools that might not match a sufficently new authoring tool UI. I don't want this rule to restrict authoring tool makers from innovating new ways to present these features, but on a meta level I don't make an authoring tool so I'd like to hear from people that make authoring tools. Do they find it reasonable.
# [18:42] <dael> glazou: I have no opinion yet because I haven't dove into flexbox or grid for my authoring tool.
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen: The tool makers on our side, I don't believe these guys look into this kind of req closely.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: Yeah, I think not matter what we write it might not be applied, but they indicate intention.
# [18:43] <dael> hober: I thinkt hat suggests it should be a note as to the best practice instead of conformance.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: We have that.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I don't htink we do.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: ON authors, not tools.
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: We have a conformance req on authors to order their DOMs in a logical way.
# [18:44] <dael> glazou: In the w3c sheet there is an a11y guidelines post and it's the best post out there.
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: Given that we have an author requirement, we can have a note to the authoring tools saying their UIshould take this into account.
# [18:44] <dael> glazou: I'd like us to warn the people editing the doc to know about it.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: In addition to, yes.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: A note in the whole spec while the document is about authoring tools entirely.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: Having the note in both places, yes.
# [18:45] <SimonSapin> "must" in a note?
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: I think that makes sense. I'm happy to draft text for that.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: SimonSapin has a good question.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: It's a note explainging to authoring tools that authors have a must. It's an explination of a must.
# [18:46] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: Ok, fair enouh
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: Let's defer until fantasai makes the text. Do you accept an action to write it?
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: Adding a note to grid and flexbox and add a note that they can add conformance criteria if they wish.
# [18:47] <dael> bo: this feels like a stop-gap about the bigger a11y issue for flexbox. This brings awareness to it, it does help.
# [18:47] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0154.html
# [18:47] <dael> action fantasai to write a note about authoring tools supporting the must requirement to re-order the DOM in a logical way
# [18:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-695 - Write a note about authoring tools supporting the must requirement to re-order the dom in a logical way [on Elika Etemad - due 2015-06-24].
# [18:48] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0168.html
# [18:48] <dael> Topic: grid thing form gregwhitworth
# [18:48] <dael> gregwhitworth: We had the same issue with interop about fixed position. However we get CSS 2.2 update we need to be able to say fixed pos if Gecko changes, it seemed like we're leaning in that direction.
# [18:49] <dael> gregwhitworth: I don't know if this needs much discussion unless Gecko disagrees.
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: We don't have dbaron. So that defers until early July.
# [18:49] <dael> gregwhitworth: I don't think I need to be here. However we get it updated, we just need to know if he disagrees.
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen: We have implementation intent from Blink.
# [18:49] <dael> ??; No, blink and webkit have it.
# [18:50] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0165.html
# [18:50] <dael> Topic: CSS UI Issues
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: Let's do the two last ones about publication.
# [18:50] <Rossen> s/??/gregwhitworth/
# [18:50] <dael> subtopic: updated Rec for css-style-attr
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: There was a minor issue, it doesn't change anything, a term was just defined twice.
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: No obj?
# [18:51] <dael> RESOLVED: Update the REC for css-style-attr
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: Do we have Bert?
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: I can work with plh to publish.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: We don't have TabAtkins for the other one. There was an issue he raised where he realized that our publication practice wasn't a w3c requirement, but a CSS WG rule and he wanted to change publication to let authors deal with it.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I know I've published directly to web-req, but they wanted me to talk to the staff contacts. Given staff contacts aren't here...
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: These are things chairs need to discuss with plh and web-req. If you want us to discuss we can.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I think it's an action on the chairs to find out if it's possible to see if it's worth discussing.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Let me ping plh on if it's possible and I'll get back.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: One question, smfr are you on?
# [18:54] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0147.html
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: Did you want to talk about item 9?
# [18:54] <dael> smfr: We're making progress on the ML, but I wanted to ask Microsoft for feedback
# [18:54] <dael> ??: I saw the mail, but haven't gotten to digest.
# [18:54] <dael> smfr: There was another only about containing block that would be good to nail down.
# [18:54] <glazou> s/??/MaRakow
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: I'd like to mention something about CSS 3 UI. Our "LC" period ends today. We have a handful of small issues open. There's maybe one or two we can tackle on the call. I don't think we can go to CR.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: During the F2F we thought we might drop the box-sizing and Mozilla was going to figure out if it was okay, but they removed it from their code base.
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: There was a resolution on the Wednesday minutes to drop
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: Okay. So we do drop it. I had a discussion with authors that it was nice, but not with any major use case. In some cases it's convenient, but it can be done without. If vendors agree we should remove, we stick byt he previous resolution.
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: If there's strong demand it shows up in level 4.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: Okay.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: The other thing is the CSS3 UI spec talking about the cursor property it has supposed values as auto.
# [18:57] <dael> glazou: URL?
# [18:57] <Florian> http://www.w3.org/mid/DB2A75EC-6C11-44A7-A043-4A2418ADC3C9@rivoal.net
# [18:57] <Florian> The UA may treat unsupported values as auto.
# [18:57] <Florian> E.g. on platforms that do not have a concept
# [18:57] <Florian> of a context-menu cursor, the UA may render
# [18:57] <Florian> default or whatever is appropriate.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: [reads text]
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I don't htink this is good, if you don't support, don't support and people can use a test page. "do whatever is appropriate" is vague.
# [18:58] * Quits: tdresser (~tdresser@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: Is tantek on the call? I'd like to hear the original reason for it.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: I tend to agree, but I'd like to hear from him.
# [18:58] <Zakim> - +1.519.513.aaee
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: That's reasonable.
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: Okay, ping tantek to give us context.
# [18:59] * fantasai and pleae compile a DoC
# [18:59] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:59] <dael> action Florian ping tantek for reason the UA may treat unsupported values as auto.
# [18:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-696 - Ping tantek for reason the ua may treat unsupported values as auto. [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-06-24].
# [18:59] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:59] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:59] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:59] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Florian.a
# [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -??P9
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
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# [18:59] <dael> glazou: I suggest we stop here. Thank you everyone. Bye.
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# [19:00] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.675.aaaa, glazou, astearns, dael, +1.908.982.aabb, +1.479.764.aacc, dauwhe, +1.631.398.aadd, plinss, antenna, Florian, SimonSapin, tgraham, smfr,
# [19:00] <Zakim> ... +1.519.513.aaee, adenilson, alex_antennahouse, Rossen, +1.415.231.aaff, BradK, koji, hober, fantasai, [Microsoft], MaRakow, +1.479.764.aagg
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# [19:23] <JonathanNeal_> I’ve written a polyfill for nesting in CSS (following the W3C CSS Nesting Module Level 3 syntax) https://github.com/jonathantneal/postcss-nesting
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# [21:30] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:34] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:38] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:39] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [21:42] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [21:46] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:00] * Joins: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak)
# [22:07] * Quits: svillar (~sergio@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:10] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
# [22:10] * Quits: lajava (~javi@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [22:37] * Joins: myles (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:58] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:59] * Joins: lajava (~javi@public.cloak)
# [23:10] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [23:13] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [23:14] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:21] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:36] * Joins: renoirb_ (renoirb@public.cloak)
# [23:36] * Quits: renoirb (renoirb@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:49] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# Session Close: Thu Jun 18 00:00:00 2015

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