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- # Session Start: Wed Jun 24 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [17:30] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-css-irc
- # [17:30] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:30] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
- # [17:30] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
- # [17:31] <glazou> and this will be our last conference call with Zakim
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- # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
- # [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aaaa
- # [17:56] <Florian> Zakim, I am aaaa
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +Florian; got it
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P2
- # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +smfr
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- # [17:57] * plh zakim, call plh-work
- # [17:57] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
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- # [17:57] <Zakim> +Plh
- # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aabb
- # [17:58] <antenna> zakim, aabb is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +antenna; got it
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P5
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
- # [17:58] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
- # [17:58] <alex_antennahouse> zakim IPcaller is me
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- # [17:59] <Zakim> +dauwhe
- # [17:59] <Zakim> -??P5
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- # [17:59] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
- # [17:59] <Zakim> +??P8
- # [17:59] <hyojin> zakim, P8 is me
- # [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, hyojin, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'
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- # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P8 is hyojin
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +hyojin; got it
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- # [18:00] <hyojin> thanks
- # [18:00] <glazou> np
- # [18:00] <bkardell_> Zakim, things just won't be the same without you...
- # [18:00] <Zakim> I don't understand you, bkardell_
- # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.908.982.aacc
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- # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, we’ll miss you :-)
- # [18:00] <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, glazou
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +dael
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- # [18:01] * dauwhe_ Lenny, we hardly knew you
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> + +93016aadd
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- # [18:01] <antonp1> Zakim, aadd is me
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +antonp1; got it
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- # [18:02] <myles> Zakim, aacc is me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +myles; got it
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:03] <glazou> Reminder to all : https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices
- # [18:03] <glazou> for next week
- # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaee
- # [18:03] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/InstallingWebEx
- # [18:03] <dael_> ScribeNick: dael
- # [18:04] <TabAtkins> zakim, aaee is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P13
- # [18:04] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +BradK
- # [18:04] <Zakim> -BradK
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- # [18:05] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P17
- # [18:05] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P13 is me.
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
- # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Let's get started.
- # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +BradK
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- # [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
- # [18:06] <tgraham> zakim, P17 is me
- # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, tgraham, I do not recognize a party named 'P17'
- # [18:06] <tgraham> zakim, ??P17 is me
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
- # [18:06] <dael_> Florian: To clarify, item 10 links to a mail of mine and is named CSS UI Issues and it has other issues. For CSS UI all issues have fixed and I'd like to go to publication. If we could disucss it early in the call that would be nice.
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- # [18:06] <dael_> plinss: We have other pub things to talk about too so that's fine. I wasn't sure if you were ready for CR
- # [18:06] <dael_> Florian: I'm ready.
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +MikeMiller
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- # [18:06] <dael_> Topic: status of will-change
- # [18:07] <dael_> plh: So I'm trying to see, was there a transition request? I didn't see any.
- # [18:07] <dael_> plh: So it was never asked.
- # [18:07] <dael_> plh: As far as I can tell.
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- # [18:07] <dael_> glazou: We havea resolution from end of March to publish so let's do that.
- # [18:07] <dael_> plh: I'm happy to help, the action wasn't asked so that's why it didn't get a responce.
- # [18:08] <dael_> plinss: Sounds liek something got dropped. We'll take care of that offline.
- # [18:08] <dael_> Topic: spec publication
- # [18:08] <dael_> plinss: There was a q about letting editors publish own specs
- # [18:08] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [18:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, Florian, glazou, smfr, Plh, antenna, [IPcaller], dauwhe, BrianKardell, hyojin, myles, dael, antonp1, [Microsoft], TabAtkins, adenilson, tgraham, BradK,
- # [18:08] * Zakim ... [IPcaller.a], MikeMiller
- # [18:08] * Zakim [Microsoft] has Rossen
- # [18:09] <dael_> TabAtkins: So according to Robin every other WG lets spec authors publish own spec. There is literly no requirement for team contacts to do that, so why aren't we letting authors publish own spec
- # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Sophia]
- # [18:09] <dael_> plh: The answer is I don't know. Not every other WG does that, some do, some don't. it varies widely. There is no req. that it be team contacts.
- # [18:09] * Bert zakim [Sophia] is me
- # [18:09] * Bert zakim, [Sophia] is me
- # [18:09] * Zakim +Bert; got it
- # [18:09] <dael_> glazou: So that's mostly the WG history. We've always gone through team contacts.
- # [18:10] * Bert excuses for being late
- # [18:10] <plh> q+
- # [18:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
- # [18:10] <dael_> Florian: It has pros and cons. Givent hat it's annoying having team contacts manage is nice, but we have lots of specs and requests so asking them is often inconvenient.
- # [18:10] <dael_> plh: My rec would be if you could move to a system that would be better.
- # [18:10] <dael_> TabAtkins: I'm working on getting bikeshed on it.
- # [18:10] <Zakim> +Lea
- # [18:10] <dael_> plh: There are some use cases for this group that we're not support ing yet. We're working on it.
- # [18:11] <dael_> plh: It only supports WD from a single WG. It doesn't support any other status. If your WD is with another WG that doesn't work.
- # [18:11] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
- # [18:11] <dael_> plh: We also don't support exceptions such as the CSS Validator stuff this group has been asking about. We have ideas on how to support it, but it's a question of the most urgent thing at the moment.
- # [18:12] <TabAtkins> s/to a system/to the Echidna system/
- # [18:12] <dael_> Florian: Where we can use it we should try, but it's not everywhere. Another down side of our way is when something bad happens the editor doesn't know.
- # [18:13] <dael_> glazou: Let's not go back to that. We discussed that during the last F2F and I've discussed it witht he webmaster. The webmaster will use the original e-mail with CCs for other authors to notify about publicaiton.
- # [18:13] <dael_> ??: Is that written anywhere?
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- # [18:13] <TabAtkins> s/??/smfr/
- # [18:13] <dael_> TabAtkins: There's a page on the wiki. I'm not sure if it is there, but it should be in the how to publish on the wiki.
- # [18:13] <dael_> glazou: I think I sent an e-mail to the WG a few weeks ago saying that all pub requests should be CCed to the editors.
- # [18:14] <TabAtkins> (Step-by-step guide, I check it every time: https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish)
- # [18:14] <dael_> glazou: Yes, I did it on 29 May.
- # [18:14] * dauwhe gotta leave IRC. will try to stay on call.
- # [18:14] <Zakim> +??P22
- # [18:14] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
- # [18:14] <tantek> zakim, ??p22 is me
- # [18:14] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
- # [18:14] <dael_> Florian: That removes one down side.
- # [18:14] * tantek wow we're still using Zakim!
- # [18:14] <dael_> Florian: But can editors do it themselves.
- # [18:14] <Zakim> -antonp1
- # [18:14] * Florian tantek: last time
- # [18:14] <antonp1> Zakim, mute me
- # [18:14] <Zakim> sorry, antonp1, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
- # [18:14] * glazou smfr https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0126.html
- # [18:14] * tantek wants "Zakim lives!" t-shirts
- # [18:15] <dael_> plinss: I have no obj to editors pub themselves. According to the guidelines we've discussed I'm okay.
- # [18:15] <dael_> TabAtkins: Lets work out the details on the ML.
- # [18:15] <dael_> Topic: CSS UI to CR
- # [18:15] <tantek> yay!
- # [18:15] <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#changes
- # [18:15] <dael_> Florian: Yes, it's down to 0 issues. I updated the spec to have the list of changes WD by WD.
- # [18:15] <tantek> Thanks Florian
- # [18:15] <dael_> Florian: I also made the DoC
- # [18:15] <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/issues-2012-2015.html
- # [18:16] <dael_> Florian: There are a few changes, very small. They're listed in the URL above. I think we can go to CR, though if people disagree we can do a WD for a week. I don't think we need that.
- # [18:16] <tantek> we made changes that the group expected, e.g. dropping padding-box
- # [18:16] <dael_> Florian: We'll publish and likely update again.
- # [18:16] <tantek> I think we should go directly to CR
- # [18:16] <dael_> TabAtkins: I'm fine.
- # [18:16] <dael_> plinss: Any objections to CR?
- # [18:16] <dael_> RESOLVED: Publish CR for CS UI 3
- # [18:17] <dael_> s/CS/CSS
- # [18:17] <dael_> plh: So who has the action to send the transition request.
- # [18:17] <tantek> transition request? up to staff?
- # [18:17] <dael_> Florian: If there's a how to guide I'm happy to do it. Or I can bother a team contact to tell me how to.
- # [18:17] <dael_> plh: I'm happy to point you to them.
- # [18:18] <dael_> Action: Florian to handle publication for CSS UI 3
- # [18:18] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:18] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [18:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-697 - Handle publication for css ui 3 [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-07-01].
- # [18:18] * glazou thanks plh for stepping in on that one :-D
- # [18:18] <dael_> Florian: Is that okay tantek?
- # [18:18] <dael_> tantek: That's fine. I thought it was just a staff thing.
- # [18:18] <dael_> Florian: Yes, be we just talked about letting editors do it.
- # [18:18] <dael_> tantek: Alright, whatever makes it faster.
- # [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
- # [18:18] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
- # [18:18] <dael_> glazou: The transition call will still be between W3C staff and chairs.
- # [18:19] <tantek> Does there always need to be a call? Just curious
- # [18:19] <tantek> in terms of what's required for process
- # [18:19] <dael_> glazou: We have to make sure whoever is invited to the call is in the loop.
- # [18:19] <dael_> Florian: Just give me the how to and I'll do it.
- # [18:19] <Zakim> -adenilson
- # [18:19] <dael_> plh: I'll be happy to draft it, Florian.
- # [18:19] <tantek> thanks plh
- # [18:19] <dael_> Topic: calc() serialization
- # [18:20] * Joins: gregwhitworth_ (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
- # [18:20] <Florian> q+
- # [18:20] * Zakim sees plh, Florian on the speaker queue
- # [18:20] <dael_> TabAtkins: SO it's not def how calc() serializes. I agree it should be specified. There's one bit I'm not sure about which is if you can simplify something down to a single unit, does it have to be mantained as a calc() or can you reduce that to a simple value, like 5pm
- # [18:20] <dael_> TabAtkins: I'm fine with serializing down all the way and I'm fine with writing what we decide in values and units.
- # [18:20] <dael_> TabAtkins: If there are opinions let me know here ot on ML, otherwise I'll spec it up.
- # [18:21] <Zakim> +??P11
- # [18:21] <dael_> Florian: If that's the question, it implies for other situations you're trying to serialize as much as possible. I'm not objecting, but that's what you mean.
- # [18:21] <plinss> ack Florian
- # [18:21] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
- # [18:21] <plinss> ack plh
- # [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:21] <glazou> q+
- # [18:21] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
- # [18:21] <dael_> TabAtkins: Yes, I think we're not going to remember the exact form, we're serializing to the smallest tuple.
- # [18:21] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P11 is me.
- # [18:21] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
- # [18:21] <plinss> ack glazou
- # [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:21] <dael_> glazou: I'm looking at the org. e-mail, that is the serialization about.
- # [18:21] <dael_> TabAtkins: All of them.
- # [18:21] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:22] <dael_> glazou: I'm obj to the OM part. It is a complete blocker for editors.
- # [18:22] <bkardell_> tabatkins, what would it look like in devtools?
- # [18:22] <dael_> glazou: If you add to a stylesheet calc(something complex) and you're editing through a UI and the serialization somewhere gets read of the complexity that is good for editing, it invalidates it.
- # [18:22] <dael_> TabAtkins: Okay, so we should give back the exact.
- # [18:23] <TabAtkins> bkardell_: DevTools has hooks into low-level stuff, can represent however they want (probably keep it literal).
- # [18:23] <dael_> glazou: Computed is whatever you want. Reduction to a unit is fine. For the OM when you serialize you shouldn't tweek thte value of calc(). You can do some optimization, but if you have different units it should be preserved.
- # [18:23] <dael_> TabAtkins: How about we preseve everything as is.
- # [18:23] <Zakim> +antonp1
- # [18:23] <dael_> Rossen: I know a lot of expressions go down to a sinlge value, what is the motivation of just reporting the value and dropping the calc(). Is there a use case or ask for it?
- # [18:23] <bkardell_> TabAtkins, doesn't _glazou want the same sort of powers as devtools there?
- # [18:24] <dael_> TabAtkins: We'd like to be able to simplify in the engine so dropping the calc and just having a plain value is nice.
- # [18:24] <glazou> s/gets read/gets rid
- # [18:24] <dael_> Florian: We have 2 use cases. glazou where we want author intent or in the case where we want to simplify as much as you can including dropping the calc()
- # [18:24] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
- # [18:25] <dael_> TabAtkins: There is still...the policy of it being exactly eq I don't think we can keep. When there's a pixal and %, I think the % is meaningful. If you're in a transition, you don't want a sudden shape change.
- # [18:25] <dael_> Florian: If it means the same thing, don't preserve...
- # [18:25] <dael_> TabAtkins: Where there are multi units wirtten in, we should preserve the units.
- # [18:25] * plh sent email to Florian
- # [18:26] * Florian plh: thanks. I'll look after the call
- # [18:26] <dael_> TabAtkins: If you are writing something that works on string values and you do 5px 5% and -5px and -5%, you hit a point where it's 0 when you transition. If you get rid of the % you have a problem at 0.
- # [18:27] <dael_> Rossen: I'm in favor of preserving. We're not going to keep the calc when we go to a single value unit in the computed style, serializing it back we can always have the calc around the value, but it's easier to serialize jsut the value without hte calc and that has nothing to do with the specified value so glazou scenario isn't effected.
- # [18:27] <dael_> Rossen: I was asking why you brought it up to see if there were users asking for it.
- # [18:27] <dael_> TabAtkins: It needs to be specified and we have differing impl. I have a mild preference, but we have to decide.
- # [18:27] <dael_> Rossen: Should we reolve?
- # [18:28] <dael_> TabAtkins: Yes. If anyone disagrees with the rest, raise those issues. Elsewise we need to decide if we're stripping the calc()
- # [18:28] <dael_> TabAtkins: For computed values and further, if the calc is a single unit, remove the calc and just have the naked value
- # [18:28] <dael_> Rossen: serialize out the simplification
- # [18:28] <dael_> TabAtkins: In specified values we'd only combine identical units.
- # [18:29] <dael_> Florian: I'd rather that be nothing at all.
- # [18:29] <dael_> TabAtkins: I don't know if we keep around exact strings or reserialize the exact value.
- # [18:29] <dael_> Rossen: The computed one if it reduces to a single unit, it would be better to serialize out hte single unit.
- # [18:29] <dael_> glazou: I agree with Rossen from an editing POV
- # [18:29] <dael_> plinss: My only concern is we don't have anyone form Moz and we can provisionally resolve.
- # [18:29] <tantek> no objections
- # [18:30] <dael_> plinss: Any obj?
- # [18:30] * glazou thanks TabAtkins
- # [18:30] <tantek> plinss - I'm from Mozilla - do you want me to check with dbaron too?
- # [18:30] <dael_> RESOLVED: for computed values and further, if the calc() is a single unit, remove the calc() and just have the naked value
- # [18:30] <dael_> Topic: reslution MQ
- # [18:30] * glazou tantek yes please
- # [18:30] * glazou although people are busy in Whistler right ?-)
- # [18:30] * tantek glazou yes - in Whistler - hence noisy background - sorry!
- # [18:31] <dael_> Florian: I realized we define what happens when printing, but it's not how typical printing works. They render to a PDF that is sent to the printer and we don't define what happens tot he resolution MQ when the medium is a vector enviroment
- # [18:31] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
- # [18:31] * plinss taktek, yes please, and SimonSapin (or someone else from servo) as well
- # [18:31] * TabAtkins tantek, yeah, getting dbaron signoff would be great
- # [18:31] <dael_> Florian: Even when you are in a vector medium, it happens that if your page contains any rastor image, it will be downsampled.
- # [18:31] * glazou tantek ask around you about the road closing and the bears during previous occurence of the summit there
- # [18:31] <dael_> Florian: That's the space we're in. TabAtkins and I have been talking on the ML
- # [18:31] * Rossen is now known as Rossen_away
- # [18:32] * tantek dbaron question for you about stripping calc() when serializing for simple values
- # [18:32] * tantek glazou last time here was 2010 - no road closure. I think the road closure was the time before that!
- # [18:32] <dael_> TabAtkins: We add an infinity value to the resolution MQ to indicate it's vector. Then we add an additional MQ with the same syntax and is the max resolution of the rastor. It will be no lager thant he resolution, but may be smaller.
- # [18:32] * dbaron can't really follow along now
- # [18:32] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
- # [18:32] * glazou tantek you telling me I’m getting older ?-)
- # [18:32] * tantek will follow-up later
- # [18:33] <dael_> Florian: 600dpi is a common value you could expect. It's common to have a quality setting that includes downsampling.
- # [18:33] <dael_> Florian: We're both okay with that. I also suggested a boolean MQ to say if you're in vector or medium.
- # [18:33] <dael_> Florian: I think the advantage of that is it doesn't let me do non-interesting cases, but TabAtkins syntax is easier.
- # [18:34] <dael_> TabAtkins: When I was doing EX you have to use both the boolean and the resolution together. I think that's non-intuitive. With my solution you can use them independantly.
- # [18:34] <Zakim> -antonp1
- # [18:34] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
- # [18:34] <dael_> Florian: I think TabAtkins prop. is fine. The only issue I have is when the rastor is higher than resolution. It's more expressive than we need, but it's easier to understand so I'm okay.
- # [18:35] <dael_> TabAtkins: If there are opinions express them on the ML
- # [18:35] <dael_> smfr: When the browser is printing, it may know the resolution of the output device.
- # [18:35] <dael_> TabAtkins: I agree that if you're going through an intermediate format you're right, but if you're going just to a PDF, getting that you want it better.
- # [18:36] <dael_> Rossen: Would this have an inpact on source set? Would any re-evaluation need to happen?
- # [18:36] <dael_> TabAtkins: No more than today.
- # [18:36] <Zakim> -adenilson
- # [18:36] <dael_> Florian: They're orthagonal, but they're independant. sourceSet needs to work witht he rasteraztion, but it's a clarification. There's not behavior change.
- # [18:36] <dael_> Rossen: Okay.
- # [18:36] <dael_> plinss: Do people want to let these guys sort it out or make a decision?
- # [18:37] <dael_> Florian: I'm okay with TabAtkins proposal. If people want something else we can go to the ML
- # [18:37] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
- # [18:37] <dael_> Rossen: How critical is it?
- # [18:37] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:37] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
- # [18:37] <dael_> Florian: Not really. I don't know anyone is asking for it, I just realized it was ambig and I wanted to fix that.
- # [18:37] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
- # [18:38] <dael_> Florian: My use case is if you're high resolution use serif and if not use sans-serif and resolution MQ couldn't do it.
- # [18:38] <Zakim> +antonp1
- # [18:38] <dael_> Rossen: OKay.
- # [18:38] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
- # [18:38] <dael_> plinss: Sounds like we're learning toward TabAtkins. Should we resolve?
- # [18:38] <dael_> Florian: Sure.
- # [18:38] <dael_> plinss: Obj?
- # [18:38] <dael_> RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins proposal for removing ambiguity from resoltuon MQ
- # [18:39] <dael_> Topic: unicode range tokens.
- # [18:39] * bkardell_ misheard this as 'unicode rage token' which is actually a good name too
- # [18:39] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:40] <dael_> TabAtkins: A while ago there was a bug where something lik U+A was triggering as invalid. I agree it was wierd and the unicode-range was odd in CSs syntax. I tried to remove it with something like An+B. That almost worked until I realized we have exponentials and those are giving me numbers instead of the correct value.
- # [18:40] * Joins: MaRakow_ (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
- # [18:40] <MaRakow_> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
- # [18:40] <Zakim> +MaRakow_; got it
- # [18:40] <BradK> Infinity symbol for media query: ∞
- # [18:40] * Parts: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
- # [18:40] <dael_> TabAtkins: This just screws it up. Certain hex numbers just won't show up right. We have two choice. a) we call it a failure and we have have wierd special purpose token.
- # [18:41] <dael_> TabAtkins: B) we accept that the current syntax is hosed and invent a new syntax. specify the old for backwards compat, but with a strong warning not to use it.
- # [18:41] <dael_> TabAtkins: My suggestion is just replacing the + with a -
- # [18:41] <dael_> TabAtkins: simonsapin most wanted to comment on this, but I want other opinons.
- # [18:41] * Joins: adenilson_ (~anonymous@public.cloak)
- # [18:41] <dael_> TabAtkins: You can write a unicode as U+ or U- and we say don't use U+
- # [18:42] <dael_> Florian: and you mean only fully support it for lagacy?
- # [18:42] <dael_> Florian: Yeah.
- # [18:42] <dael_> Florian: What about webcompat?
- # [18:42] <dael_> TabAtkins: I don't know, but I could ifgure it out. It's not hard to find all the ranges in unicode that show up. We can see if there's stuff that would trigger this. I should get someone to help me run that query.
- # [18:42] * fantasai thibks we need to hear from dbaron & jdaggett on this
- # [18:42] <dael_> TabAtkins: Assuming it shows up with no webcompat, what do we prefer?
- # [18:43] <Zakim> +??P25
- # [18:43] <dael_> TabAtkins: And if there's no strong opinion, I'll wait for SimonSapin to get out of his meeting and wait for the results.
- # [18:43] <adenilson_> Zakim, ??P25 is me.
- # [18:43] <Zakim> +adenilson_; got it
- # [18:43] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
- # [18:43] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
- # [18:43] <dael_> Florian: Uses of unicode ranges that happen to be scientific notation aren't that common, but the selectors aren't what common either.
- # [18:44] <dael_> TabAtkins: We know selector breakage happens because there's a MOzilla bug report. We'll see if we'll cause any breakage if we make this change.
- # [18:44] <dael_> Florian: My guess is they're both rare and both used.
- # [18:44] <dael_> plinss: My thoughts are if we're going to have wierd behavior I'd rather have it in places where unicode-ranges will occur.
- # [18:44] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:44] * adenilson_ is now known as adenilson
- # [18:44] <jdaggett> this is entirely an edge case
- # [18:44] <dael_> TabAtkins: That's my opinion too. So you're leaning to option B?
- # [18:44] <jdaggett> u+a breaks, u + a won't
- # [18:45] <dael_> plinss: Yeah. I'm also concerned that you're proposing these as the only two solutions and I canthink of more. You special case a unicode where if it is in a selector you have to break it down.
- # [18:45] <dael_> TabAtkins: That doesn't work well because you have to recombine.
- # [18:45] <dael_> plinss: It's not pretyt, but it is possible. If you know it's a unicode token treat it as a string.
- # [18:45] <dael_> TabAtkins: That's currently not allowed in the syntax spec.
- # [18:46] <dael_> TabAtkins: Yeah, so I had thought of those ideas and rejected them.
- # [18:46] <dael_> plinss: I'm happy to wait for Mozilla feedback
- # [18:46] <dael_> Topic: an+b selectors
- # [18:46] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
- # [18:46] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
- # [18:46] * tantek one of my favorites
- # [18:46] * glazou tantek eheh
- # [18:47] * Quits: MaRakow_ (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:47] <dael_> TabAtkins: Danial Tan suggested allowing a comma seperated list of an+b in the selectors that allow that. It's fine grammatically and works great for nth of type. The complication is there are a few places you could comma seperat in child. The easiest way is saying that the entire an+b piece has to be comma seprated
- # [18:47] <tantek> my initial feeling is it's not worth it
- # [18:47] <dael_> TabAtkins: Or we reject the whole thing, Daniel came back and said ti might not be worth it.
- # [18:47] <bkardell_> +1 this is pretty minor sugar - there are bigger fish to fry
- # [18:48] <dael_> glazou: As you said, I understand the request and the use case, I'm not so sure the number of people using it is worth the impl time.
- # [18:48] <tantek> exactly what glazou said
- # [18:48] <fantasai> +1 to what glazou said
- # [18:48] <dael_> glazou: I have no real technical objection, we can solve the issues, but is it worth it?
- # [18:48] <tantek> consensus on rejection then?
- # [18:48] <dael_> TabAtkins: That's my conclusion too. I'm comf with rejecting until more author need.
- # [18:48] <dael_> Rossen: Agreed.
- # [18:48] <dael_> Florian: I like it put can live without
- # [18:48] <Zakim> -antonp1
- # [18:48] <Florian> s/put/but/
- # [18:48] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
- # [18:49] <dael_> TabAtkins: I'm fine to reject an+b comma seperation w/o predjudice
- # [18:49] <dael_> RESOLVED: reject an+b comma seperation w/o predjudice
- # [18:49] <dael_> Topic: fixed z-index interop issue
- # [18:49] * tantek lol
- # [18:49] <dael_> gregwhitworth_: We don't have the people we need on the call, I think.
- # [18:49] <Zakim> +antonp1
- # [18:50] <dael_> gregwhitworth_: We don't really, Blink, Edge and Webkit agree. The only people who may reject is Gecko. They started hitting some of the things that made us bring this up, but they're the ones that will be affected still.
- # [18:50] <dael_> plinss: Okay. Deferred.
- # [18:50] <dael_> Topic: proposal to modify inline-block with non-empty block...
- # [18:51] <dael_> TabAtkins: That was from koji, but it was before we had control over baseline more so maybe we should refine. I don't have strong opinions on it.
- # [18:51] <dael_> TabAtkins: I defer to fantasai
- # [18:51] <Florian> +1 to defering to fantasai
- # [18:52] <dael_> TabAtkins: This is okji suggestion to make inline-block different in the presenece of different baselines.
- # [18:52] <dael_> fantasai: I'm happy to do whatever makes the most sense to the people who use it. If he thinks that we should change it, I'm happy to do so, but I need to dig in more.
- # [18:52] <dael_> fantasai: Do they want to be central aligned to first or last baseline, or be centered?
- # [18:53] <dael_> TabAtkins: I don't know. I think we should look at the e-mail more and deal with it on the ML.
- # [18:53] <dael_> fantasai: Yeah.
- # [18:53] <dael_> TabAtkins: Okay.
- # [18:53] <dael_> plinss: Okay, we'll take that back to the list.
- # [18:53] <dael_> Topic: Elements and nested scrollers
- # [18:53] <dael_> smfr: Should I summerize?
- # [18:54] <dael_> smfr: This is with scrool-snap-point. If you haev an overscroll and has position absolute with a containing block, but it's container is outside the scroller so it seems wrong to spec that scroll-snap-points with elements will take position from the absolute things.
- # [18:54] <dael_> smfr: I think it needs to be reorded to talk about an in-block.
- # [18:55] <dael_> ??: I've been going through and I'm trying to wrap it all into one thing.
- # [18:55] <dael_> smfr: Do you expect a new ED?
- # [18:55] <glazou> s/??/MaRakow
- # [18:55] <fantasai> s/dig in more/dig into the machanics/
- # [18:55] <dael_> MaRakow: I'm working through it now.
- # [18:55] <dael_> smfr: The other issue is if it's independant of x and y
- # [18:55] <dael_> TabAtkins: I think they are.
- # [18:56] <dael_> MaRakow: One thing we brought up previously is if you should have the ability of non-grad snap points. There was some interest in that, so I'm wondering if there's a way to satisfy both approches.
- # [18:56] <fantasai> Maps is a use case for snap points in 2D
- # [18:56] <dael_> smfr: The non-grid worries me because the user case of scrolling and suddenly getting pulled sideways
- # [18:57] <dael_> MaRakow: Yeah, right now the manditory snap points are implying that it makes no sense to have scroll and a non manditory point. With that interp it would make sense to move in both direction. I can see a way that makes sense with nested columns and rolls.
- # [18:57] <dael_> smfr: It could be where you allow diag but if you're scrolling sideways, your locked on that axis. Maybe the spec should say more on how it moves on each axis.
- # [18:57] <dael_> MaRakow: Do you have a a motivating story we could use?
- # [18:57] <dael_> smfr: The typical brick wall style layout that an image designer was trying to use. It's not written.
- # [18:58] <dael_> TabAtkins: Like the typical google image search. It fills in with what it needs.
- # [18:58] <dael_> Rossen: So are we expecting a WD?
- # [18:58] <dael_> MaRakow: I'll be coming up with ways to satisfy both scenarios. That's the idea.
- # [18:58] <Zakim> -adenilson_
- # [18:58] <dael_> TabAtkins: Sounds good.
- # [18:58] <dael_> plinss: So we're jsut waiting for spec prose?
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
- # [18:59] <dael_> MaRakow: Yeah, I need a little bit of time to work through feedback.
- # [18:59] <dael_> Topic: CSS 3 UI
- # [18:59] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0099.html
- # [18:59] <dael_> Florian: Just something worth mentioning, I'd like fantasai and maybe other people to reply to that e-mail
- # [19:00] <dael_> Florian: We resolved to add pre-wrap auto to level 3. The pre-wrap whiespace for level 4 is tricky. There's a suggestion in the mail, look at it and reply.
- # [19:00] <dael_> s/CSS 3 UI/CSS Text
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -smfr
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Plh
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
- # [19:00] <dael_> plinss: Okay, that's the top of the hour. Thanks everyone and we'll talk next week.
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -MaRakow_
- # [19:00] <tantek> thanks!
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- # [19:00] <tantek> and by Zakim
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Florian
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -BradK
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -antonp1
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -myles
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -antenna
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -tgraham
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -tantek
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- # [19:00] <Zakim> -dael
- # [19:00] * Quits: dael_ (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
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- # [19:01] <Zakim> -dauwhe
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
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- # [19:01] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -hyojin
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- # [19:01] <Florian> s/pre-wrap auto/pre-wrap-auto/
- # [19:02] <Florian> s/to level 3/ to level 3, and pre-wrap-trim to level 4/
- # [19:02] <Florian> s/is tricky/is tricky because white-space becomes a shorthand, and it's not quite clear how to split these values between the longhands/
- # [19:03] <Florian> s/There's a suggestion/There are some suggestions/
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- # [19:06] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Lea, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
- # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.479.764.aaaa, Florian, glazou, smfr, Plh, +1.631.398.aabb, antenna, [IPcaller], dauwhe, BrianKardell, hyojin, +1.908.982.aacc, dael, +93016aadd, antonp1,
- # [19:06] <Zakim> ... myles, +1.281.305.aaee, TabAtkins, BradK, Rossen, adenilson, tgraham, MikeMiller, Bert, Lea, tantek, [Bloomberg], [Microsoft], MaRakow_, adenilson_
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- # [20:45] <tantek> plh: how long do you think it takes on average between WG resolution to publish CR, and the CR showing up on /TR ? and how can we shorten that time?
- # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Months, because people forget
- # [20:51] <tantek> Ms2ger - when was the last time it took months? which WG?
- # [20:51] <Ms2ger> CSS
- # [20:51] <Ms2ger> I don't remember which, but fantasai might
- # [20:54] <tantek> ugh
- # [20:55] <plh> tantek, I don't have the stats for CSS
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- # [20:55] <plh> ideally, it shouldn't take more than 10 days
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- # [20:57] <plh> I try to ensure that the transition requests get responded within 7 days
- # [20:59] <Florian> plh: I'll try to prepare the request tonight or tomorrow at the latest for CSS-UI. Since it's a first time, I might send it to you (or to Chris or Bert) for review before sending it for real, depending on how confident I'm with the result
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- # [21:00] <plh> Florian, sure
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- # [21:48] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: U- would be in addition to the legacy U+ syntax, right? That doesn’t solve the u+a selector issue
- # [21:49] <Florian> SimonSapin: The suggestion is to support the u+a syntax only throught Tab's work-around reinterpreting existing tokens, not the actual unicode range token. It would fail in some cases, and in those cases, you're supposed to use the u- syntax
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- # [21:50] <SimonSapin> ugh
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- # [21:50] <Florian> so you got a mostly-but-not-always working legacy syntax, or a new clean one.
- # [21:51] <SimonSapin> can’t we just slap some quotes on there? unicode-range: "U+04e4";
- # [21:51] <Florian> Authors should use the clean new one. Legacy content would still work. Most of the time.
- # [21:51] <SimonSapin> but the new clean one is ugly :p
- # [21:51] <SimonSapin> Unicode uses U+ everywhere
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- # [21:54] <Florian> I'm in favor of parentheses.
- # [21:55] <Florian> Or we can even throw in a function if we want to be verbose. u("04e4") unicode("u+04e4") unicode-character("icanhaz-u+04e4")
- # [21:55] <SimonSapin> hahaha "you'll need to enable Java on your browser" https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/InstallingWebEx
- # [21:55] <Florian> :)
- # [21:55] <Florian> Saw that
- # [21:55] <SimonSapin> that’s not happening
- # [21:55] <Florian> Even my bank no longer asks for that.
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- # [22:15] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: "slap some quotes" is identical to "u-f00" in terms of handling back-compat.
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- # [23:12] <@liam> SimonSapin, it's OK, CSS is turing complete, we'll rewrite the audo codec that way
- # [23:12] <@liam> and no longer need Java :)
- # [23:18] <SimonSapin> liam: careful, your jokes might come true :) https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/player-demo.shtml
- # [23:19] * @liam looks
- # [23:19] <@liam> Loading... it says
- # [23:20] <@liam> eep
- # [23:20] <@liam> moving pictures! scary!
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- # [23:24] <SimonSapin> with a js codec :)
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- # Session Close: Thu Jun 25 00:00:00 2015
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