/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 30 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Shifting topics slightly, what color is the center of the conic-gradient???
  4. # [00:01] <ChrisL> the color of the last stop
  5. # [00:02] <ChrisL> (agree it should be defined)
  6. # [00:03] <leaverou> ChrisL: I think that might be an artifact of current drawing methods though, there's no reason for it to be the last color stop…
  7. # [00:04] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
  8. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> leaverou: But there's no reason for it to be any other color in particular, either...
  9. # [00:05] <SimonSapin> In idealized infinite-resolution, does a zero-size point like the center even have a color?
  10. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Not even "average color", because that means you can get a pixel that appears different from *every other color in the entire image*.
  11. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No, because it's zero-sized.
  12. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> But we don't have idealized infinite-res monitors.
  13. # [00:06] <leaverou> TabAtkins: I was thinking something like the average of all colors, though in the idealized infinite resolution there would be infinite colors too, I think
  14. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> leaverou: Yeah, average color for a rainbow conic is gray, which doesn't match the color of any other pixel anywhere.
  15. # [00:06] <ChrisL> if you want to be precise, for each pixel, you shoot stochastically jittered rays through it and calculate the color then accumulate them until you have sufficient supersampling
  16. # [00:06] <ChrisL> [that does indeed give the average color of all the stops
  17. # [00:07] <ChrisL> SimonSapin: sampling theory gets you out of that one
  18. # [00:07] <SimonSapin> If a device pixel happen to sample exactly at the center, that pixel could get any color in the gradient IMO
  19. # [00:07] <ChrisL> "a pixel is not a little rectangle"
  20. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yeah, "any color in the gradient" makes sense. "A color that doesn't appear anywhere in the gradient" doesn't. :/
  21. # [00:09] <ChrisL> tab, same comment about sampling theory
  22. # [00:09] <SimonSapin> "let’s pretend this sample is actually epsilon farther in an arbitrary direction"
  23. # [00:11] <ChrisL> simon yes, but exactly in the centre is vanishingly unlikely
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  25. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> And yet, extremely common in practice.
  26. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Statements about things that are "almost never" over a real space don't work well when things are typically confined to integer grids.
  27. # [00:12] <ChrisL> and yet, common practice can tend to be wrong, hence aliased jaggies and nearest neighbour interpolation of images
  28. # [00:14] <ChrisL> the "exact centre" of an integer grid, to arbitrary precision. if you are doing stochasic sampling, you will almost never hit it ie its infliuence will be very small to the final result
  29. # [00:15] <ChrisL> so you can asymptotically approach that result without ever solving what the central color should be
  30. # [00:15] <ChrisL> and then you have your antialiased result, which is indeed the average of the stop colors
  31. # [00:15] <ChrisL> however, actual implementations that draw radial rays will have a different result, its the color of the last ray they drew
  32. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: btw, this deltaE2000 algorithm is ludicrously complicated
  33. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Anything that involves a seventh power needs to go its room and think about its life choices.
  34. # [00:16] <leaverou> I'm a bit uncomfortable with making it mandatory for the centerpoint to be the color of the last ray just because that's what implementations do
  35. # [00:16] <ChrisL> no, its just the best approximation
  36. # [00:17] <leaverou> but if we make it the average, then it's more expensive and harder to implement
  37. # [00:17] <ChrisL> computers are good at math and efficiency doesn't matter for that analysis
  38. # [00:17] <ChrisL> yes, that is why i suggested the color of the final stop
  39. # [00:17] <SimonSapin> how about leaving it undefined?
  40. # [00:17] <ChrisL> ewwwww
  41. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> I mean, that's my plan.
  42. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> (undefined)
  43. # [00:17] <ChrisL> wooly le mouton, come here and bite simon
  44. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> It's better for mobile performance
  45. # [00:18] <leaverou> as much as I don't like leaving things up to UAs
  46. # [00:18] <SimonSapin> hehe
  47. # [00:18] <leaverou> making the incorrect choice mandatory is something I dislike either
  48. # [00:18] <leaverou> and forcing them to use the average is probably adding to their reasons for not implementing
  49. # [00:18] <SimonSapin> how much complexity is one pixel worth?
  50. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> leaverou: I think the takeaway of all of this is that *all* answer are incorrect.
  51. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> The correct answer is that the center is zero-sized and has no defined color.
  52. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> But in a quantized pixel world, there's no way to represent "no defined color".
  53. # [00:19] <ChrisL> well, that was what I was arguing but you seemed to agree and said it would be hit
  54. # [00:19] <ChrisL> pixels are not little rectangles
  55. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It's hit *in practice, in a quantized pixel world*.
  56. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> And yeah they are. ^_^
  57. # [00:19] <ChrisL> no!!!
  58. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Ok, you're right, pixels are *three* little rectangles.
  59. # [00:20] * SimonSapin looks closely at monitor
  60. # [00:20] <SimonSapin> they look a lot like rectangles
  61. # [00:20] <leaverou> TabAtkins: not necessarily, in CRTs the subpixel geometry is different :P
  62. # [00:21] <ChrisL> btw that was a reference to a famous paper by alvey ray smith
  63. # [00:21] <ChrisL> http://alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Microsoft/6_pixel.pdf
  64. # [00:21] <ChrisL> so please read it and figure out what sampling theory is because otherwise you always hit these circular arguments
  65. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> I'm aware of what sampling theory is, but it gives a different answer than the mathematical answer. ^_^
  66. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> It's just one of many ways to adapt the (continuous) math to a (quantized) pixel grid.
  67. # [00:23] <ChrisL> no, it doesn't. unless your sampling size is one
  68. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> The sampling-theory answer is just as wrong as "the last color-stop".
  69. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Because the center of a conic gradient is *not* the average color. It's undefined.
  70. # [00:24] <ChrisL> last color stop is wrong, but easy to implement. sampled result is correct, but harder to do
  71. # [00:24] <ChrisL> although, some over sampling is needed else there is very clear aliasing
  72. # [00:24] <ChrisL> especially with hard edges where stops are overlaid
  73. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Nope, sampled result is still wrong. The center of a rainbow conic is *not* gray.
  74. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Again, it's undefined. Any color is wrong.
  75. # [00:27] <Florian> timeless: anyway, thanks for getting back to us on the css-ui issues.
  76. # [00:28] <ChrisL> and if you read over my argument above, i explicitly showed that you can asymptotically approach the correct result without ever defining what the color is at the central *point* which contributes vanishingly little to the color of the central *pixel*
  77. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> If your asymptotic-approached answer to *any* pixel in a vivid rainbow conic is "gray", you're still wrong.
  78. # [00:29] <ChrisL> you will need to demonstrate that rather than merely asserting it, and also say what color the stops are in your example
  79. # [00:30] <timeless> Florian: thanks for being responsive in general, i really appreciate it :)
  80. # [00:31] <Florian> TabAtkins: even though you sound right, your definition also sounds like one based on which we could write test 8^24 reftests, trying every single color at the center and declaring an implementation non conforming if it matched. Which isn't useful
  81. # [00:31] <Florian> timeless: you spent time reviewing the spec, that's the least I can do.
  82. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Florian: My answer is "it's undefined".
  83. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> So all answers are correct.
  84. # [00:32] <Florian> but any value visible to the human eye is wrong?
  85. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> I could restrict that somewhat, but there's almost no value to restricting it.
  86. # [00:32] <Florian> ok
  87. # [00:32] <Florian> grey sucks
  88. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  89. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> But so does "last color"
  90. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> So shrug.
  91. # [00:33] <ChrisL> tab doesn't sound right in fact. he just likes igfnoring contrary evidence :P
  92. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> I mean, "average color" is what I ended up doing in linear and radial gradients.
  93. # [00:33] <Florian> minimum inner radius of 1px (not 0) ?
  94. # [00:34] <ChrisL> Florian: :)
  95. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Florian: So the center pixel is always transparent?
  96. # [00:34] <Florian> yep
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  98. # [00:34] <Florian> if you don't like that, put a radial gradient in it, and decide for yourself
  99. # [00:34] <ChrisL> mmy solution was effectively min inner radius of 0.000001 px
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  101. # [00:35] <Florian> ChrisL: you avoid the singularity problem (wrong term, but you get my point), but you don't avoid the pixel being gray.
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  224. # [17:48] <glazou> fantasai: ping
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  230. # [17:56] <glazou> fantasai: CSS blog entry done
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  263. # [21:45] <Florian> TabAtkins: I just looped you into a thread with plh. I'm having issues with bikeshed generating bad links, which is causing problems for spec publication. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I prefer to blame the tool.
  264. # [21:45] <Florian> Can you give it a look?
  265. # [21:45] <Florian> s/thread/mail thread/
  266. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah
  267. # [21:45] <Florian> Thanks
  268. # [21:46] * Florian notes he still loves bikeshed though.
  269. # [21:54] * Joins: Kurisu_ (~kurisubrooks@public.cloak)
  270. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> Florian: Responded!
  271. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> And you don't have to tell me you love Bikeshed, I already know. ^_^
  272. # [22:12] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  273. # [22:15] <Florian> There's nothing wrong with saying "I love you" everyday. It isn't meant as new information.
  274. # [22:15] <Florian> TabAtkins: thanks
  275. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Well I love you too.
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  283. # [22:38] <Florian> TabAtkins: Pull requests sent for the bikeshed regarding the issues you explained in the mail
  284. # [22:43] <Florian> thanks for merging
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  297. # [23:40] <Florian> TabAtkins: while we're on the topic of pull requests, how about this one: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/779
  298. # [23:41] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
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  305. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Florian: The ref, while it will correctly *differ* from the test when you don't support ch, will still be *wrong* when you don't support ch.
  306. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Ah, never mind, I thought I could fake it, but I don't think it's possible.
  307. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Reviewed the display edits you made, a+
  308. # [23:53] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  309. # [23:59] * Joins: renoirb_ (renoirb@public.cloak)
  310. # Session Close: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2015

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