/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-07-01 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:05] * Quits: renoirb (renoirb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Also just defined "formatting context". See what you think.
# [00:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Push?
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> Ugh, I did, but got a conflict. Rebased and pushed now.
# [00:19] <fantasai> Interesting definition, but it's not quite correct.
# [00:19] <fantasai> Exclusions break its definition.
# [00:19] <fantasai> Also, 'flow' layout sometimes establishes a formatting context, sometimes not
# [00:19] <fantasai> depends on a variety of factors
# [00:20] <fantasai> 'flow-root' always establishes a new formatting context, 'flow' *sometimes* establishes a new formatting context
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I was thinking of exclusions. Not sure how to deal with that.
# [00:22] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [00:22] <fantasai> A formatting context is an environment and a set of rules
# [00:22] <fantasai> The boxes interact in that environment, according to the rules of that type of formatting context.
# [00:24] <fantasai> Anyway, both paragraphs in that definition are wrong. ^_^
# [00:24] <fantasai> The first 'cuz of exclusions
# [00:24] <fantasai> and the second 'cuz 'flow' only sometimes doesn't establish a new context
# [00:25] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [00:26] <fantasai> Formatting contexts nest, so I'm not sure "unit" is a great word either... We're not really talking about a collection of like items
# [00:26] <fantasai> We're talking about the environment in which they interact
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> I don't think "unit" is incompatible with nesting.
# [00:27] <fantasai> No, but it puts more emphasis on treating a thing as a solid object, perhaps in connection with other solid objects
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> Are you trying to write something, or should I be doing it?
# [00:27] <fantasai> rather than focusing on its inside
# [00:27] <fantasai> I don't have much
# [00:27] * fantasai is just rambling, in case some thing makes sense
# [00:28] <fantasai> Like geodes. If you're looking at a pile of geodes, you'd think of them as units. but if you shrank yourself down and put yourself inside a geode, and was examining the crystal structure inside
# [00:28] <fantasai> you wouldn't be thinking about the geode as a unit
# [00:29] <fantasai> (regardless of whether or not, froma different perspective, it is a unit)
# [00:29] * fantasai decides she like the geode analogy, but doesn't know how to turn that into spec text either
# [00:32] * fantasai pulls up etherpad
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> "unit" still doesn't imply a lack of internal structure.
# [00:37] <fantasai> no, but it implies not focusing on the internal structure, but rather focusing on the togetherness of the item
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I think is important! A formatting structure is "together", and doesn't let outside things interact.
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> (Except for exclusions, because dammit.)
# [00:41] <fantasai> Interesting
# [00:41] <fantasai> I'm thinking more of the internal structure of the formatting context, and how that differs depending on the formatting context :)
# [00:41] <fantasai> So I guess we need to cover both topics clearly.
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> The fact that things are different is just the definition of "layout mode".
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> Formatting context is a stronger concept.
# [00:42] <fantasai> You need a new formatting context to establish a new "layout mode"
# [00:42] <fantasai> "layout mode" isn't even a thing, except in this spec
# [00:42] <fantasai> mostly in the titles
# [00:42] <TabAtkins> That depends on your definition of "layout mode". If we *define* it in terms of "thing that triggers a formatting context when you switch", sure. But block and inline are pretty different...
# [00:43] <fantasai> true
# [00:43] <fantasai> they interact in weird ways, but they are pretty different
# [00:46] <fantasai> but they do interact
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# [00:46] <fantasai> I guess for me, a formatting context is about the interactions
# [00:46] <fantasai> and for you it's about the separateness
# [00:47] <fantasai> about the interactions, i.e. which boxes interact and how they interact
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> That's the difference between "block flow" and "block flow-root" - the latter seals itself off and doesn't interact with the outside world.
# [00:48] <fantasai> Both things are true and important, so we should talk about both.
# [00:48] <fantasai> Somehow
# [00:48] <fantasai> .
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# [00:53] <fantasai> Messy: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tab-and-fantasai
# [00:53] <fantasai> Also, none of the <display-internal> values establish new formatting contexts.
# [00:54] * fantasai thinks we should just kill the last paragraph, just leave the example
# [00:55] <TabAtkins> Hm? Most of them do.
# [00:55] <fantasai> <display-internal>? No
# [00:55] <fantasai> There's a table context for the whole table
# [00:55] <fantasai> and a ruby context for the whole ruby
# [00:55] <TabAtkins> Oh, sorry, was mixing up with <display-inside>
# [00:55] <fantasai> Granted this bit is something I made up, so theoretically we could change it :)
# [00:56] <fantasai> But I think it makes sense
# [00:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, those all interact within the formatting context of their root.
# [00:56] <fantasai> Ah
# [00:56] <fantasai> yeah
# [00:58] * fantasai mucks about with more text
# [00:59] <fantasai> Ok, what I've got so far:
# [00:59] <fantasai> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tab-and-fantasai
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Looks good.
# [00:59] <fantasai> The last paragraph is all one sentence.
# [00:59] <fantasai> Which is bad.
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> We're okay with the "exclusions" thing?
# [00:59] * fantasai inserts (generally)
# [01:00] <TabAtkins> Eh, it's using a colon. It's only *sorta* a single sentence.
# [01:00] <fantasai> Should I put it into the spec, or you want to take a pass at editing?
# [01:01] <TabAtkins> I think it's fine.
# [01:01] <fantasai> k
# [01:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Didn't you used to have auto-curly-quotes for "this" ?
# [01:04] <fantasai> Or was that something else?
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> I still should?
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> I mean, it's done via styling.
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# [01:14] <fantasai> It's not possible to do it via styling?
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# [01:18] <TabAtkins> Oh! I thought those were double-single-quotes.
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> But they're just double quotes?
# [01:19] <fantasai> yeah
# [01:20] <fantasai> btw, checked in. I tweaked the example text and added a note
# [01:20] <fantasai> adjust as appropriate :)
# [01:21] <TabAtkins> No, I only do it to single quotes.
# [01:23] <fantasai> k
# [01:23] * fantasai will keep that in mind and convert stuff to Unicode as necessary
# [01:24] <fantasai> Okay, time for bed. Think we're set to request publication tomorrow?
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# [01:30] <TabAtkins> Sure!
# [01:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I still manually use “” when writing quotes in text.
# [01:59] <dauwhe_> Zakim, any last words?
# [02:04] <TabAtkins> Zakirn
# [02:04] * TabAtkins excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed.
# [02:04] <TabAtkins> SHOOT I'M BAD AT THIS
# [02:05] * TabAtkins is now known as Zakirn
# [02:05] <Zakirn> excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed.
# [02:05] <Zakirn> FUCK AGAIN
# [02:05] * Zakirn excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed.
# [02:05] * Zakirn is now known as TabAtkins
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> THERE FOR GODS SAKE
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# [02:29] <heycam> fantasai, the section title for http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-logical-props/#resize needs s/text-align/resize/
# [02:38] <TabAtkins> heycam: fixed
# [02:38] <heycam> cheers
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# [13:24] <fantasai> Florian: will forward the email once I get confirmation from dbaron about forwarding his questions :)
# [13:26] <Florian> fantasai: ok. If he doesn't, or doesn't respond, I think you email makes sense without context, so you could just cut that part and send just your text.
# [13:28] <Florian> fantasai: I've reached out to various people to try and get information about uses of sideways-left for rtl in vertical, and it's not impressive so far.
# [13:30] <Florian> It's been interested to ask people completely unrelated to the W3C, and have them try to introduce me to Richard Ishida as someone who ought to know.
# [13:30] <Florian> s/interested/interesting/
# [13:32] <Florian> like this guy: http://www.kanji.org/kanji/jack/personal/resume.htm
# [13:33] <Ms2ger> That's certainly what I'd do :)
# [13:33] <glazou> LOL @ Japan Yiddish Club
# [13:35] <Florian> Met him by chance 15 years ago. I was in a Japanese library, trying to buy a Japanese to English dictionary. He happened to be there, and seeing I was confused, recommended I got the one he wrote.
# [13:35] <Florian> (which, in retrospect, was a very good recommendation)
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# [13:38] <Florian> Anyway, knowing he cares about typography, and is fluent in Chinese Japanese Korean Arabic Hebrew and Yidish, I though he might know what to do with rtl languages in vertical text.
# [13:39] <Florian> Answer: talk to this guy, and this guy says talk to Richard Ishida.
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# [15:10] <Florian> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-containment doesn't seem to be known to bikeshed for autolinking
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# [15:43] <Florian> TabAtkins: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/33
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# [16:35] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Can I make Bikeshed not auto-generate <dt>Issue Tracking: <dd><a href="https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/">GitHub</a> ?
# [16:42] <SimonSapin> `omit feedback-header` looks relevant, but also disables other things
# [16:42] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG 20150701 conference call - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0379.html'
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# [16:43] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/01-css-irc
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# [16:44] <Ms2ger> It's Zakim!
# [16:45] <glazou> yeah the bot still exists
# [16:45] <glazou> but not connected to the bridge
# [16:46] <Ms2ger> Aw
# [16:46] <glazou> I think the various w3c confcalls this week are going to be a bit messy :-D
# [16:46] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [16:47] <Ms2ger> Still glad I don't attend any :)
# [16:47] <glazou> eh
# [17:42] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yes, use `Boilerplate: omit feedback-header`
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# [17:58] <glazou> Present+ glazou
# [17:59] <dael> Present+ dael
# [17:59] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Agenda+ Gecko intends to ship css-logical-props (among other things) https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.platform/zQgw_4WeBkc/oyVZ5-k1D6cJ
# [18:00] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:00] <plinss> Present +plinss
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# [18:01] <SimonSapin> Present+ SimonSapin
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# [18:02] <bcampbell> is passcode the same? having trouble.
# [18:03] <dael> bcampbell: are you using the webex phone number?
# [18:03] <ChrisL> bcampbell, not it is a new number and new system today, see agenda
# [18:03] <SimonSapin> bcampbell: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0206.html
# [18:03] <bcampbell> ok, sorry, thanks
# [18:03] <smfr> Present+ smfr
# [18:04] <smfr> attendee number? does it matter?
# [18:04] * SimonSapin is using a wired telephone for the first time in a while
# [18:04] * ChrisL present: call-in User 1, all-in User 2, all-in User 3 ...
# [18:04] * fantasai can't hear anything, can anyone hear her?
# [18:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai, no
# [18:05] * dael can't hear you
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# [18:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, I'm in.
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> Present+ tabatkins
# [18:05] <leaverou> Present+ leaverou
# [18:06] <Rossen> Present+ Rossen
# [18:06] <fantasai> Present+ fantasai
# [18:06] <dbaron> Present+ dbaron
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: Let's try to start
# [18:07] * @Bert will join shortly
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: There were a few additions. I saw a msg from Florian about the backlog and one from Koji.
# [18:07] <bcampbell> Present+ bcampbell
# [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: Gecko is intending to ship css-logical-properties which isn't a WD yet, it's full of issues
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: And you'll ship the full of issues?
# [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm not sure exactly what.
# [18:08] <dael> ??: Unprefixed?
# [18:08] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
# [18:08] <SimonSapin> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.platform/zQgw_4WeBkc/oyVZ5-k1D6cJ
# [18:08] <Florian> s/??/Florian/
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: If any issues are on ww-style with Moz prop resolution somewhere it's good to have that. Otherwise I'll get around to connecting everything later
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Was that a q or an announce
# [18:09] <dael> SimonSapin: I wanted to bring to the groups attn. I don't know if it's a problem to ship early
# [18:09] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [18:09] <dael> dbaron: The pieces we're planning on shipping aren't the pieces with the problem. We're not shipping the shorthand on logical. I think we're shipping margin-padding, border-* and one other, I think.
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: Behind a flag?
# [18:10] <dael> dbaron: No. Only longhand.
# [18:10] <dael> dbaron: It's been behind a flag for a year.
# [18:10] <@Bert> Present+ Bert
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: If you want to ship, why not help finish the spec first to be sure things won't break. I think that's what we generally said we'd be doing.
# [18:11] <dael> dbaron: Fundimentally b/c we're the last browser to ship this, ie veritical text support, and shipping it depends on logical prop for us.
# [18:11] <dael> dbaron: And we'd really like to get it shipped.
# [18:11] * astearns just got a silent stretch then a bunch of overlapping voices to catch up
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: We're not going to do this right discussion right now. Thanks for the announcement. I suggest disucssing the furture of the spec on the ML.
# [18:11] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: Anything else before we really start?
# [18:11] <dael> Topic: fixed z-index interop issue
# [18:12] <glazou> Present+ GregWithworth
# [18:12] <dael> gregwhitworth: Basically, is dbaron there?
# [18:12] <dael> dbaron: Yes.
# [18:12] <dbaron> the logical props we have are margin-*, border-*, padding-*, top/right/bottom/left, (min-/max-/)width/height
# [18:12] * Joins: andrey-bloomberg (~andrey-bloomberg@public.cloak)
# [18:12] <dael> gregwhitworth: We've been pushing htis off a bit. Blink, WK and Edge basically give anything with z-index it's own layer but the spec says it should work like abspos and not get a new layer. We want to change the spec so that it represents the reality of the other browsers. Marco has been seeing issue in mobile
# [18:13] * fantasai thanks, dbaron
# [18:13] <dael> gregwhitworth: I want to get your input and see if you're against it.
# [18:13] <dael> gregwhitworth: position-fixed, not z-index.
# [18:13] * fantasai will try to set aside some time to finish up the fpwd, has a couple things higher in the queue
# [18:13] <dael> dbaron: I think I'm okay with it.
# [18:13] <dbaron> smfr^: you mean position:fixed getting a stacking context
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: It's worht mentioning that I had, when we pushed this early in Edge dev phases I added this behind a flag to see if anyone complains, we didn't hear any but we do know of a number of pages that will be broken when the opp. is broken, when fixed pos don't create stacking
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: The interesting bit of info is during Sydney F2F someone from Chrome, I think Rick Byers, said they want to revert and support a partical context on z-index. I'm okay either way, with our impl both are possible, but I'd prefer to lock on one of those.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: If anyone from Chrome can comment that would be great.
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: I can ask, but I think it's that our recent improvements make it possible to go back to partial. I don't think there's anything wrong with full stacking context.
# [18:15] <dael> smfr: I'd prefer we maintain a full stacking. OUr painting can't deal with interweaving.
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen: So if we decide to support partial, you won't be able to for technicaly.
# [18:16] <dael> smfr: We've been shipping with fixed for 2 years so going back would be a compat risk for us
# [18:16] <dael> smfr: So it sounds like w'ere back to the question as to if Gecko will make position: fixed create a stacking context.
# [18:16] <dael> dbaron: I think it's fine given that it's compat
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: As an author I think this is sufficently confusing and having the semi-stacking makes it worse. If we can avoid it's better.
# [18:17] <dael> gregwhitworth: So can we resolve on this? I don't know if we put it in 2.2 or what, but can we call for resolution?
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: If everyone agrees to impl the same thing we can resolve
# [18:18] <koji> Present+ koji
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: I missed it, did we resolved to make position: fixed a full stacking context, always?
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: We seemed to be about to
# [18:18] <dael> gregwhitworth: It seems there's no disagreement. dbaron is saying it's okay. If no one is against it I say we resolve.
# [18:18] * ChrisL sees Greg on twice
# [18:18] <Florian> Present+ Florian
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: Only reason I brought it up is there was impl consideration from Chrome and I don't want to have the same conversation in 6 months with the opp. arguement.
# [18:19] * glazou ChrisL the longer one is not him
# [18:19] * glazou but I don’t know who that is
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: There's nothing technical making stacking context hard. There's something technical with making partial hard, but full isn't a technical issue. I think we'll be fine.
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: Sounds great. So we can resolve on it and that's it.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: Clarification, if a position fix element has a transformed ancestor and it doesn't behave in a fixed way, does this apply?
# [18:20] <dael> smfr: I want to clarify if it'st he position: fixed itself or having the containing block be the viewport.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it's just position: fixed.
# [18:20] <dael> smfr: Okay, that's fine.
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen: That sounds really good. Tieing it down is better than looking up ancestry
# [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: make position: fixed a full stacking context
# [18:21] <dael> gregwhitworth: So how does this make it into the spec?
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: I can add it to position level 3
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: It needs to go into level 2. We should action Bert to update.
# [18:21] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:21] <dael> antonp: Isn't this already in level 2?
# [18:21] * glazou sound is so good I did not recognize antonp
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: I'm not sure why you think that's the case, but it's not true.
# [18:21] <@Bert> (Is it just a clarification?)
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: In 2.1 position: fixed is considered a stuck catagory of abspos
# [18:22] <dael> antonp: I think I'm thinking of something else. I think I'm wrong. I'll write to the list if I correct myself, but I think I'm wrong.
# [18:22] * Joins: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <dael> Bert: For CSS 2 does it need a change?
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen: I think there's agreement you have a note in CSS 2.2. That was fantasai arguement and I don't have an opinion. I will add the requirement to CSS 3 positioning.
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: It needs to go into both.
# [18:23] <dael> ACTION Rossen add position: fixed as s full stacking context to positioning
# [18:23] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-698 - Add position: fixed as s full stacking context to positioning [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2015-07-08].
# [18:24] <dael> Bert: I can look at Rossen text and create an ereata
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen: It'll be one sentence and we can use in both
# [18:24] <dael> ACTION bert to take Rossen text and export it to level 2
# [18:24] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-699 - Take rossen text and export it to level 2 [on Bert Bos - due 2015-07-08].
# [18:24] <dael> Topic: aggregating CSS modules
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: We started the discussion, but I'm not sure we went far.
# [18:25] * Rossen is now known as Rossen_away
# [18:25] <dael> astearns: I started it to prod plinss and TabAtkins
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: We keep being lazy about creating hte index of all things in CSS> Altering bikeshed so that it can make a huge document is something I haven't done. I've been doing bikeshed issues for a bit and I might get there.
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_away: SVG has been asking for the same thing. They've been waiting for this so they can switch to bikeshed.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll be on my list. I think I have it as an issue.
# [18:26] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0160.html
# [18:26] <dael> Topic: Language specfic support...
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: This is somethign I was wondering about. We have @supports, but it doesn't quite work for hyphenation b/c when the browser impl hypenation it doesn't do it for all the browsers in the world.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: If you think something is ugly without hyphenation, you need to know if it supports hyphenation on the languague you're using for the leemnt.
# [18:27] <rbyers> Rossen: IIRC it was vollick@ who said he felt guilty about us insisting on a full stacking context for position:fixed now that our implementation no longer requires it. I.e. we recognized a fundamental flaw in WebKit/blink compositing architecture (that causes correctness issues elsewhere) and are close to finally eliminating it.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: I'm not saying that's enough to give nice hyphenation, but it's a datapoint that's useful. I was thinking we might want to introduce either a special syntax or a psuedo class that you can tag onto any element.
# [18:28] <dael> Florian: The language that it uses, if it's one the browser can hyphenate than you use that to style.
# [18:28] * Quits: tommyjtl_ (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:28] <dael> Florian: A second part is if you want to turn on justification but only if the broswer can do it nicely, which might mean hyphens for some languages, but not all. Trying to detect it sounds useful, but it's hard to tell what 'nice' means.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: I think they hyphenation case is less fuzzy. If it's supported is non-ambig
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree that multiple ambiguous hints aren't something we want. The hyphenation is unambig. It sounds reasonable and I see the usecase.
# [18:29] * fantasai is unsure this is that important to solve atm
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: The diff between the syntaxes is if you're using @support you can inside that have any number of rules and combine. What's nicer with pseudo-class, in @supports you have to ask about one language specifically.
# [18:30] * Joins: MaRakow_ (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: That makes me lean toward the pseudo class. You have multiple declariations, just on rule block.
# [18:30] * fantasai is therefore it's worth the work/complexity to add
# [18:30] <fantasai> s/therefore/therefore unsure/
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: This is classically a MQ type thing. That seems to be more natural, but I have to think on it.
# [18:31] <dael> astearns: I'm not entirely sure that's enough justification for this new feature. If a UA doesn't support a lang for hyphenation, maybe that's a bug. As UA gets more sophisticated the need deminishes.
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: I doubt we'll reach a point where all UA support hyphens for all lang. It's too large a set.
# [18:31] <dael> astearns: So you're talking about a stylesheet for near infinante rules?
# [18:32] <Rossen_> q+
# [18:32] * Zakim sees Rossen_ on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <glazou> q+
# [18:32] * Zakim sees Rossen_, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <glazou> Zakim, ack Rossen_
# [18:32] <Zakim> I see glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: If you're creating something where you expect a lang tag and you want to go with : or - depending on what's supported, we should be able to do that. There won't be a browser that knows all local lang.
# [18:33] <dbaron> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens#Notes_on_supported_languages_2
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_: I'm a bit hesitant for a feature like this. When we were adding conditional lang abilities for windows apps, we had similar problems where content written for RTO lang or hosted in RTO it needed to adapt properly so on/off buttons are right. Hypheantion in that respect I don't see as an outlyer in lang-specific behaviour
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_: It's also a minor use case. Making sure a huge exceptionf ro a minor feature is a stretch.
# [18:33] <fantasai> s/RTO/RTL/
# [18:34] * dbaron is now known as dbaron-away
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen_: The fallback here isn't really that bad. The third thing I wanted to point out, we have a service that we use which is shared across many components. Simply booting the service is quite costly so doing it per element is crazy.
# [18:34] <Florian> q+
# [18:34] * Zakim sees glazou, Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:34] <glazou> Zakim, ack me
# [18:34] <Zakim> I see Florian on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: Doing this on a per element basis, as soon as you have th einfo for a given lang you can cache. You don't hyphenate differently between elements. As soon as the info is aquired you have it for the whole session.
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen_: Does that go for mixed lang?
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: This is related to my question. Florian mentioned the pseudo class, but does it take an arguement?
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: It matches the lang of the element. No arguement.
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: I don't see the problem. in 99.9% of cases the language will be the same.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: and if you have a bunch of lang this isn't more costly. If we didn't have it you would apply hyphens and have to turn on the engine anyway.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: I understand the perf concern, but we should stick to the usefulness of the feature. THere's an issue there.
# [18:36] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:37] * dbaron-away is now known as dbaron
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: I don't think it's majorly useful, but the same is true of hyphenation. Hypenation itself is more difficult to use if you can't know if you have it. You can't use @supports, so you're stuck right now.
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: Narrow columns without hyphenation can be ugly so it's reasonable
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: There are layout types you only want with hyphenation
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: And you only want this if you have a lang that doesn't need hyphenation or if you can have hyphenation. We can have the broswer tag if it doens't need it.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: So the official French typographic rules, which we've used in the past, I've seen some prose about not using hyphenation in that case. BUt the use-case exists.
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: You mean not using justification if there's not hyphenation?
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [18:38] <dael> Rossen_: Can you find a reference to that?
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Yes, it's at home, but I will.
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: I'm not so sure the cost of impl for this is expencive, I think it's straight forward. It could solve a case in some lang for layout. I feel, personally, that we should investigate.
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: What do others think?
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: From impl POV this will be low on the stack. I can see the completeness arguement from Florian. If there are use cases that can hit somewhere...but cost to benefit is off.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: I agree w/ Rossen_
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: Other impl?
# [18:40] <dbaron> I don't have a strong opinion either way.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not able to speak on this now.
# [18:40] <dael> smfr: I'm not aware we've had any requests on this so I think it's low priority
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: Florian would you keep some prose under the radar for now?
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: Yes, I can see how it's not high priority, even though it's not wrong. I'll keep the text.
# [18:41] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0153.html
# [18:41] <dael> Topic: CSS text-decor Example 3
# [18:41] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: Currently we have an auto value and an under value anda right value.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: If we look at the spec [link]...
# [18:41] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/#text-underline-position-property
# [18:42] <@Bert> (Maybe there is way to generalize this: provide alternative styles based on whether each of them can deliver a certain quality, where "quality" can be an aggregate or a set of detailed typographic measurments...)
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: You can combine under with left or right so you can have different behavior from vertical and left and right. The feedback we got was that we want to have, there's a suggestion the UA stylesheet should have a rule taht sets the underline to the correct side for Chinese and JApanese
# [18:42] * glazou Bert and we’ll fight for 2 or 3 years to define them…
# [18:42] <dbaron> Japanese and Korean on right, Chinese on left, no?
# [18:42] * tantek forgets the webex code
# [18:43] <dbaron> tantek, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0206.html
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: That's in the spec as a recommedation. But b/c you can only combine right with under is it causes a problem. The suggestion is to let auto and under both be combined with left or right
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: dbaron is correct
# [18:43] * tantek dbaron yeah not logged in on this mobile client. passwords--
# [18:43] <dael> ??: I'm not clear about what the symantics is
# [18:43] <glazou> s/??/Koji/
# [18:44] <dael> koji: I'm unclear about how to interpret another value
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: That is another issue. if left or right is spec without the other key word, what do we do.
# [18:44] <dael> koji: Or if under is spec, is it left or right.
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: It's just going to be left
# [18:44] <dael> Rossen_: And under start won't work?
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: It has less to do with start and end of block and more with text orientation. for ex Mongolian the underline will be on the right side, even if it's the end side.
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: It'st he end side on CJK. under if you spec by itself it means it goes on that side of the text. left and right give a direction, either the left or right side.
# [18:45] * Joins: w3c-webir (~w3c-webir@public.cloak)
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen_: In that case, I'm okay with auto. It's magic enough for people to get it from the get go. It's better off to be left as magic.
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: Any disagreement? Objection?
# [18:46] <dael> koji: I'm okay with the syntax, but from the original proposal I can't read what they're expectation is for some of the values. I want to confirm that they think it means.
# [18:47] <fantasai> 1. Do we allow auto to combine with left|right
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: There's two issues. [types]
# [18:47] <tantek> Present+ tantek
# [18:47] <fantasai> 2. If left | right is specified alone, is the behavior in horizontal text under or auto
# [18:47] * tantek hears typing.
# [18:47] * ChrisL hears thunder drums
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I'm gussing it should be auto since that's the initial value
# [18:48] * glazou hears people melt outside (40°C)
# [18:48] <dael> koji: Does that imply when under is spec left or right is auto?
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Under has a meaning that isn't left or right, it means it's on the underside which depends on the text orientation.
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Most cases it will be left, but in sideways-left ir would be right.
# [18:48] * dbaron offers a 16°C alternative
# [18:48] <dael> koji: Japanese is right.
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen_: When is left and right used when auto does it when it's needed.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't.
# [18:49] <dael> koji: auto applies only for horizonal, I think is what she's saying.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: We discussed having auto adjest based on the lang and we decided not to have it change based on the language.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: Let's all look at the word alphabetic.
# [18:49] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [18:50] * astearns webex whiteboard is too distracting
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: There's a p and the line crosses the tail. That side of the text is the underside. If we rotate the text 90 counterclockwise, the underline is on the right side. clockwise it's on the left.
# [18:50] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [18:51] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Auto puts the underline on the side of the text that's the bottom after you rotate the text. Since Japanese and Korean have their typesettings rule place it on the right side of the text, we added a UA rule that sais for those two lang change the value so that in veritical text it is on the right side
# [18:52] <dael> koji: We allow auto to adjust beween CJK and non-CJK for horizontal. I also requested not to have UA stylesheets request what you want. Like that you said in the ML.
# [18:52] * Joins: |orion (~orion@public.cloak)
# [18:52] * tantek definitely confused without a diagram but that's ok. Will keep listening and trying to understand.
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: Amoung the two people discussing, I'm not seeing consensus. I don't know what to do with your discussion now.
# [18:52] <dael> koji: I think we can resolve syntax now. We can continue the semantics discussion on the ML
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: fantasai?
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I think that that's fine.
# [18:53] <dael> Rossen_: Is the ML discussion happening?
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: ONe thing that's confusing is if we change the meaning of auto to switch sides, not jsut adjust the position. It doesn't flip to the other side of the text, it's always on the under side of the text. If we change auto to also place on the over side it doesn't make sense to combine it anymore.
# [18:54] <dael> koji: I asked for clarification yesterday on the list. Maybe it's worth waiting a bit more to see if the discussion continues.
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: Okay. Done deal.
# [18:54] <dael> koji: We can resolve the syntax change.
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I think if we're changing the sematics of auto, we may want to rethink the syntax.
# [18:55] <dael> koji: Okay.
# [18:55] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0347.html
# [18:55] <dael> Topic: Splititng CSS-speech
# [18:57] <tantek> Big question here is who are the implementers that have any interest at all?
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I was thinking speak and speak-as are something we would encourage general authors to us since it lets them control is some text is visable to speech. Such as websites will position stuff off to the weeds so that it's there for speech but you don't want it for visual people. speak could override that so you do display: none and speak: normal and it overrides it.
# [18:57] <tantek> Without indication of even a hint of implementer interest I'd say it's too low a priority to bother with group time on.
# [18:57] <bkardell_> what agent supports css-speech?
# [18:57] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: That seems like it would be generally useful and be impl without much interaction witht he speech rendering. It seems like that might be useful for general authors, while styling the voice-rate and other things in CSS speech, they're interesting, but it's unlikely authors will take advantage of them in a useful way.
# [18:57] <tantek> Even *interest* nevermind code.
# [18:57] <dael> smfr: I think tantek is making a useful point that there's such little impl it might not be worth talking about.
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I don't think there's interest in the rest of css-speech, but I think speak and speak-as will be useful.
# [18:58] <tantek> If even a single implementer speakers up indicating interest in impl, then let's re-assess
# [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: And might be interesting to implementers, if they were not buried in the rest of speech
# [18:58] <bkardell_> it seems to me leonie watson recently told me she couldn't find any if that is worth anything
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure we're the best place to know about special application tools. I suggest piging Daniel Veck (?). He was the author and will know about where it's used.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: I'd like him contacted before we move on.
# [18:58] <bkardell_> glazou: I can bring it up in a11y task force if that is helpful
# [18:58] <tantek> Otherwise not worth the time. But agreed with glazou - ok to ask around.
# [18:58] <dael> bo_campbell: I'd be interested in understanding this further and getting opinions from screenreader users.
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: fantasai do you want me to take an action to contact?
# [18:59] <dbaron> s/Veck/Weck/
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I'm mostly interested in what the browsers are doing right now. It seems it would be useful for a11y
# [18:59] <tantek> Documentation of those use cases would be a good start.
# [18:59] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0346.html
# [18:59] <dael> ACTION: contact Daniel Weck to see if there's any evolution on speak and speak-as so we can see if we can extract it
# [18:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:59] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:59] <trackbot> Error finding 'contact'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:59] <tantek> That fantasai mentioned
# [18:59] <fantasai> tantek, look on the web for text-indent: <huge-negative-length>
# [19:00] <dael> ACTION glazou contact Daniel Weck to see if there's any evolution on speak and speak-as so we can see if we can extract it
# [19:00] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-700 - Contact daniel weck to see if there's any evolution on speak and speak-as so we can see if we can extract it [on Daniel Glazman - due 2015-07-08].
# [19:00] <ChrisL> yes!
# [19:00] <dael> Topic: Display WD
# [19:00] <ChrisL> +1 to publish
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I suggest we pub and deal with issues late
# [19:00] <tantek> fantasai, big neg text-indent is a hack for all kinds of crap. SEO nonsense etc.
# [19:00] <dael> RESOLVED: New WD for Display
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: Thanks everyone. Sorry if the first day of webex wasn't perfect
# [19:01] <fantasai> tantek: ok, on a page that isn't doing SEO crap :)
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# [19:01] <tantek> Lol
# [19:01] <dael> Please mark yourself as present if you didn't already!
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# [19:01] <antenna> present+
# [19:01] <tantek> dael: what's your preferred syntax for that?
# [19:01] <antenna> present+ antenna
# [19:02] <MaRakow_> present+ MaRakow
# [19:02] <tantek> Yeah see?
# [19:02] <gregwhitworth> present+ gregwhitworth
# [19:02] <MaRakow_> did that work?
# [19:02] <dael> What they did I think shoudl work
# [19:02] <glazou> tantek: « Present+ nickname »
# [19:02] <tantek> Present+ tantek
# [19:02] <MaRakow_> Present+ MaRakow
# [19:02] <tantek> Case insensitive?
# [19:02] <MaRakow_> *shrug*
# [19:02] <glazou> tantek: probably
# [19:02] <tantek> One has to ask these things :)
# [19:02] <dael> We'll find out :) If nothing else I can pull them out in a text editor.
# [19:03] <glazou> thanks dael !
# [19:03] * glazou has to run, bye people
# [19:03] <tantek> Thanks dael. Report back on the case-sensitivity of our new webex syntax :)
# [19:03] <dael> Will do!
# [19:03] <SimonSapin> tantek: what kind of case insensitivity? (:
# [19:03] <tantek> dael++
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# [19:03] <tantek> SimonSapin: present+ vs. Present+
# [19:04] <tantek> (Asks the guy with a CamelCase IRC nick ;) )
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# [19:14] <SimonSapin> (this was an attempt at a joke about the Unicode C+F v.s. C+S v.s. ASCII-only discussions)
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# [19:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You publishing or me?
# [19:18] <Florian> TabAtkins: Fixed the prose of my PR as per your code review. By the way, who do we get css-containment into bikeshed's database of autolinkable things, so that I can rid of pre-anchoring css-containment terms in css-overflow?
# [19:18] <TabAtkins> Me, I'll do it in a few minutes.
# [19:18] <Florian> oops, I meant how, not who. but that still works :)
# [19:18] <fantasai> k
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm gonna link in the issues mail I sent, and then you can go
# [19:19] * fantasai remembers to also cross-check the changes list
# [19:21] <Florian> TabAtkins or fantasai: Could either of you review this TC before I forget why I wrote it :) https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/779
# [19:21] <TabAtkins> I did yesterday - it's good to go.
# [19:21] <Florian> oh, cool.
# [19:21] <Florian> Should I click merge, or do you want the privilege?
# [19:22] <Florian> well, for metadata reasons, It's probably better if you do.
# [19:22] <Florian> (reviewer != author)
# [19:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: OK, all pushed
# [19:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: All set to go :)
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# [19:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: k, i'll get publishing ready
# [19:55] <TabAtkins> Florian_dinner: Will probably bug you to help with the publishing part. Has your experience been documented in the wiki yet?
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# [20:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: he's doing CR publication, this is just a WD
# [20:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The process is the same as before, but send a reply to the pubrequest with a zipfile of the prepared publication
# [20:01] <TabAtkins> Then that should be easy to put into the wiki. ^_^
# [20:01] * fantasai works on it
# [20:01] <fantasai> Hopefully Echidna will make this process obsolete
# [20:01] <fantasai> :p
# [20:01] <fantasai> it's very annoying
# [20:04] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> Yus.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> I have an issue to dive into Echidna and figure this out. I should probably get on that.
# [20:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish#steps-for-manual-publication
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> It's... hard, because there's a publication token that's supposed to be secret.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> As in, it shouldn't be stored in public repo.
# [20:09] * fantasai nods
# [20:09] <TabAtkins> But that means you have to keep around a secret token out-of-band and pass it to Bikeshed every time you want to publish. :/
# [20:09] <fantasai> Then bikeshed might need a per-person config file
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# [20:10] * fantasai is sure there's a python library for "read config file in appropriate OS-designated place named .foo"
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> Hm, yeah, that might work.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> Annoying that I still have to spam these around all my computers (and "secretly" share them with the other editors of a given spec).
# [20:10] <fantasai> lol
# [20:11] <fantasai> Are the tokens per spec or per spec-editor pair?
# [20:12] * fantasai looks this up
# [20:12] <fantasai> nope, per spec
# [20:12] <fantasai> eh
# [20:12] <fantasai> *shrug*
# [20:12] <fantasai> I'm of the mind that the first Echidna CSSWG publication should be done by a Staff Contact, so they can figure out all the kinks, and then we can try it ourselves
# [20:13] <fantasai> And if that works, *then* we can see what happens when tantek tries to publish :PPPPP
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# [20:17] <TabAtkins> Tokens are per spec, yeah.
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> Plus editor tokens, which are per editor.
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# [21:05] <Florian> TabAtkins: No, I have not yet documented the CR publication process, I'm waiting for it to succeed first. This has partially happened (Director approved), but it's not actually out yet.
# [21:24] <plh> it's pretty much a done deal at this point btw
# [21:25] <plh> so you can start documenting the first steps :)
# [21:25] <plh> if you want, I can provide more info on what I'm going to do between today and Tuesday
# [21:25] <plh> so that your documentation will be more complete
# [21:26] <Florian> That'd be great, thanks
# [21:29] <plh> I'm happy to review your doc once it's up btw
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# [21:50] <Florian> plh: I'll get to it in the next few days. Lots of balls to juggle right now.
# [21:50] <plh> sure, not hurry
# [21:50] <plh> no
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# [21:52] <Florian> by the way, I cannot access the minutes of the transition call, my credentials don't seem to be enough. Is that expecteD?
# [21:54] <plh> it is expected
# [21:54] <plh> but there is nothing there
# [21:54] <plh> besides ok
# [21:55] <Florian> sounds important to keep confidential then :)
# [21:55] <plh> yes indeed :)
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2015

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