/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-07-08 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 08 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:12] <astearns> TabAtkins: every time I see contain:paint I'm reminded of an A.E. Van Vogt story about an astronaut that encounters an annoying alien artifact that keeps repeating, "I contain paint!"
# [00:12] <astearns> unfortunately I can't find it online anywhere
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# [00:25] <TabAtkins> Hahaha what
# [00:28] <astearns> it's a fairly cute puzzle story - apparently (my searching tells me) it's been made into a radio play and a film. "A Can of Paint"
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# [16:56] * plinss changes topic to 'CSS WG 20150708 conference call - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0089.html'
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# [17:41] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:46] <glazou> plinss: I have updated the message for new members with WebEx info and confcall time in Tokyo ; just sent one for a new Vivliostyle member
# [17:46] <plinss> ok, thanks
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# [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:56] <astearns> bah, not the same attendee id number as last week
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# [17:57] <astearns> present+ astearns
# [17:57] <dael> present+ dael
# [17:57] <tantek> good morning #csswg
# [17:57] <tantek> going to be a few min late to call - dealing with a dying laptop (drive) :(
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# [17:59] <Florian> present+ Florian
# [17:59] <dael> present+ Rossen
# [17:59] <plinss> present +plinss
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# [18:00] <hyojin> present+ hyojin
# [18:00] <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
# [18:00] <smfr> what’s the attendee number?
# [18:00] <leaverou> present+ Lea
# [18:00] <plinss> smfr: just hit #
# [18:00] <glazou> smfr: you can only see it from webex desktop
# [18:01] <glazou> present+ glazou
# [18:01] * ChrisL 641 037 413
# [18:01] <glazou> present+ Rossen
# [18:01] <leaverou> present+ leaverou
# [18:01] <smfr> does it change every week?
# [18:01] <antonp> present+ antonp
# [18:01] <astearns> it appears to
# [18:01] <ChrisL> mmaxfield is still sending video (blank video)
# [18:01] <ChrisL> ok, fixed
# [18:01] <smfr> that’s lame
# [18:02] <astearns> agreed
# [18:02] <glazou> smfr: not the only lame thing ; only excellent bit is the sound quality
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# [18:03] <glazou> present+ BradK
# [18:03] <BradK> Hi
# [18:03] <glazou> present+ Johanneswilm
# [18:03] <smfr> present+ smfr
# [18:03] <glazou> present+ antonp
# [18:03] * dael BTW the present+ isn't caps sensitive. I end up pulling them out myself and I can turn my brain's caps sensitivity off ^-^
# [18:03] * dael for everyone wondering last week
# [18:04] <glazou> thanks dael :-)
# [18:04] * astearns dael can ignore capitalization. She's a mutant!
# [18:04] <glazou> plinss: you’re calling from a phone?
# [18:04] <plinss> yes
# [18:04] <glazou> ok
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# [18:05] * dael astearns- you've discovered my super power!
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# [18:05] * astearns the additional super power aside from minuting
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Anything to add?
# [18:05] <dael> Florian: Topics 6, 7, and 8 are related and I prefer 7 before 6
# [18:06] * glazou muted koji , too much noise
# [18:06] <dbaron> Present+ dbaron
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: I did have one request from Cameron. Looks like SVG meeting isn't going to meet at TPAC and they're looking at colocating with us in Paris and were hoping they could spend time with us in Paris.
# [18:06] <dael> ChrisL: When in Paris?
# [18:06] <BradK> Several people are not muted, but probably should be if they aren't talking.
# [18:06] <koji> Present+ koji
# [18:06] <dael> Rossen_away: We decide to combile SVG and CSS. SVG will start Monday or maybe Sunday and we'll overlap two days with CSS. In that way we can do a FX joint meeting either the first or second day of the CSS mtg.
# [18:07] * smfr sounds like someone is being abducted by aliens
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen_away: If there are issues that require some members we can go back and forth betwen rooms.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen_away: Basically, they'll overlap for two days.
# [18:07] * ChrisL hears some cylon-like sounds
# [18:07] * glazou too
# [18:07] <antenna> Preset+ antenna
# [18:07] <dael> Florian: Depending on agenda, I don't mind doing it during the overlap, but I do mind before.
# [18:07] <antenna> Present+ antenna
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen_away: I don't believe that was the request.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen_away: The request was for a regular CSS date
# [18:07] <glazou> Regrets: TabAtkins, gregwhitworth, hober
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing obj so I'll send a thumbs up
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen_away: We can provision a half day and if more is needed everyone is in the same building so we should be able to facilitate as we go.
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Right. WE can factor that into the agenda.
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen_away: There's a number of topics pushed away for join discussion. And since there's too many members with TPAC conflicts they decided to cancel that meeting.
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: using and images/ folder for specs
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: TabAtkins isn't here, but he sent an e-mail with the proposal
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Sounds good to me.
# [18:09] * dauwhe I fixed GCPM and CSS-Inline this morning
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: It's all images in a sub folder of each spec, not a joint folder, right?
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: Yes.
# [18:09] <SimonSapin> Present+ SimonSapin
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: That I'm okay with.
# [18:09] <dael> smfr: I like the idea and did it for transforms
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# [18:10] <dael> smfr: There was question about where to put files generated by images and I'd prefer them in a seperate folder.
# [18:10] <dael> astearns: Things should be in sub folders, that's what we should go with
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_away: The way I read the request is he was requesting asingle folder for all of them.
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: It's one per spec.
# [18:10] <astearns> and we shouldn't dictate folder structure
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Each spec has a folder for where the files and and the images for the spec would go in there.
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen_away: And this is more optimal than one images folder for all the specs and if a spec requires something special special...
# [18:11] <fantasai> css-break/Overview.bs
# [18:11] <fantasai> css-break/Overview.html
# [18:11] <fantasai> css-break/images/
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: We have [types]
# [18:11] <fantasai> css-break/images/diagram.png
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: And all the stuff goes inside images
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: We don't share images across specs
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: And a shared folder would create pub problems.
# [18:11] <dael> ChrisL: And if something changes you need to work out dependancies.
# [18:12] <dael> Florian: Do the source files for the images go in there or do we use a sub folder
# [18:12] <dael> ChrisL: I prefer seperate. And for pub it makes it easier to have seperate
# [18:12] <dael> smfr: How does pub choose which files?
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# [18:12] <dael> ChrisL: On the new system you send a manifest file that lists all the directories and files in that. Old someone made the choice
# [18:13] * fantasai prefers keeping sources in the same folder, easier to see which file you're supposed to edit when working with them images
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# [18:13] * fantasai is sympathetic to concerns wrt publishing, though
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: My small use case fo sep images and source is what I did CSS 3 there were a bunch of images and not all were used and it makes it a lot easier if the images supposed to be used are in one place, but that's a smallthing.
# [18:13] <dael> RESOLVED: keep images and a images/ folder and source files in a sounce/ folder for the spec
# [18:13] <astearns> dbaron
# [18:13] <dael> dbaron: But it goes in a sub directory?
# [18:14] <dael> plinss: bikeshed source file, see where they are. This is just files to generate images if any.
# [18:14] <dael> Topic: % resolution for abspos vs inflow grid items
# [18:14] <dael> Florian: Didn't we do that?
# [18:14] <dbaron> I don't think "source/" was a name to be used for image sources...
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: And we need TabAtkins
# [18:14] <dael> Topic: clarification on % margin/padding
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen_away: This is editorial. I don't think it requires much groupd discussion.
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen_away: Basically someone reading the spec was confused by the current text that says margins and paddings resolve their % values from their...what was the current text...from their respective sizes or something like that. It sounds like they would resolve % from themselves
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen_away: It's editorial to show they resolve from the width or height of the block.
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: We'll let you take care of that one.
# [18:16] <dael> Topic: Grid issues
# [18:16] <BradK> WebEx, who is typing?
# [18:16] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen_away: Who has this one?
# [18:16] <@Bert> present+ Bert
# [18:16] * tantek scrolls up to see some editorial discussions.
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen_away: For greg's he's on vacation.
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen_away: I don't have the ability to do those. We can push them to the end of the call and by then I might be in the office.
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: We'll defer those.
# [18:17] <dael> Topic: Logical Values for caption-side
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: We have 2 values of caption-side that didn't have logical eq. in the spec and those are top-outside and bottom-outside and the proposals are block-start-outside and block-end-outside
# [18:17] <dael> Rossen_away: Let's start with those and if we rename we'll do everything. Being consistant witht he current ones sounds good.
# [18:17] <glazou> +1
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: Other opinions?
# [18:18] <dael> smfr: What does outside mean in this context?
# [18:18] * tantek also prefers keeping sources in the same folder (like fantasai, same reasons). And is confused by what "/source/" is supposed to contain? .bs source? stuff for generating images? would rather leave it up to editor choice.
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: The model for table captions is the table caption is a block whose containing block is the width of the table's containing block. In implementation captions were constrained to the size of the table itself. In CSS 2.1 we changed the definition so that that's how it behaved.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Because you oten want the old behavior we said there would be top and botoom values that would hold the behavior. Mozilla had impl those as per spec and since they have that and they're impl logical eq. they needed logical values for those that don't exist anywhere but note
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: So it's in term of containment, not left page, right page.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: Yes, it's about the table, not paging
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen_away: What module is that in?
# [18:20] * dbaron is now known as dbaron_away
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: cpation-side values are in CSS 2.1 in a note
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: And we have the logical eq. in writing-mode
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen_away: Thank you.
# [18:20] <fantasai> The model for table captions in CSS2.0 was the table caption was a block whose containing block was the table's containing block.
# [18:20] <dael> plinss: It sounds like people are okay with it.
# [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: add block-start-outside and block-end-outside
# [18:20] <fantasai> However, in implementations, captions were constrainted to the size of the table itself.
# [18:21] * dauwhe not hearing anyone...
# [18:21] <dael> Topic: overflow:clip and BFCs
# [18:21] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: In relation with containment and paint containment, we added a value to overflow that's clip. It's the same as hidden, but you can't scroll even programmatically. Very often that's what authors want and if they can say that it allows browsers to be more efficent
# [18:21] * ChrisL bert, please mute
# [18:22] * dbaron_away is now known as dbaron
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Mozilla has a slightly different thing. Every value of overflow other than visiable makes the elements create a BFC.
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Mozilla's doesn't.
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# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Before we go futher I thought we should consider that and if we should align. I think it's odd, but it's what they do.
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen_away: This would complicate the float algo quite a bit because if I have floats taht extend past the bounds of the clipping element, it means they're bound for the purposes of line layout will need to be considered for visual clipping.
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen_away: That sounds wierd.
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: That's not what mozilla's value does.
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: This is how we did overflow:hidden before it was clear what it did. What we do is just visual clipping, it's not layout change
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: It's a lot like clip, but it applies to more than abspos elements
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen_away: So layout would have been taken acount like it's visable and the clipping is render time only behavior?
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: Yes.
# [18:24] <vollick> Is this related to contain:paint?
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# [18:24] <dael> Florian: So for historical reasons, I see how you ended up there, but do you want to maintain it?
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen_away: I question the usefulness
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: It's been useful as a lighter weight varient of clipping
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_away: What makes it heavy weight.
# [18:25] <dael> dbaron: You need to be able to allow scrolling. In our impl some of that is heavy.
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: That's why overflow:clip is supposed to be different from. It's the same as hidden, but you don't have the scrolling.
# [18:25] * smfr someone is heavy breathing
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# [18:26] <dael> Rossen_away: It's goingt o be a different behavior because all the floats inside the clipping element, but adding clip all the flaots won't affect the layout outside. If you toggle backa nd for the clip you have to re-layout
# [18:26] * ChrisL it is bert. I asked him to mute
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: That's the same as hidden
# [18:26] * ChrisL glazou, please mute bert
# [18:26] <dael> Rossen_away: Yeah, in that respect yes. In the way dbaron desc it you wouldn't have to do anything, it's just visual
# [18:26] * glazou done
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: IN terms of run time costs, sqitching to my clip is higher cost than Moz. But in terms of impl you have it because you have hidden
# [18:26] * astearns webex only allows one host per meeting?
# [18:27] * glazou oooh Chris, we cannot be both « host » ?!?
# [18:27] <vollick> I.e., is overflow:clip similar to overflow:hidden + contain:paint?
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen_away: IN terms of impl cost for us, if we persue one of the other there won't be that much difference, I don't htink. It's allowing...um...
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: I question the usefulness of hidden floats going outside and change the layout.
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen_away: That's what I havea problem with. If there's a float to the bottom and I clip it the stuff at the bottom will relayout and that's wierd.
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: It's also wierd to design things to be more expensive just because of floats which we do a lot
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_away: But we can't just ignore thm, right?
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: Keep in mind that we do not have a sqitch for creating a block formatting context group. A lot of overflow is to make the BFC and you can do that now explicitly. Right now you can't say I jsut want to clip as easily.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: What's the use case for clipping w/o BFC?
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: Maybe you don't have floats, just margin collapsing and you don't want to change the margin collapising behavior.
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen_away: It sounds again we're oversimplifying once we toss the float out of the picture.
# [18:30] <dael> robertknight_clo: dbaron in your impl I'm assuming the only things you're doing is constraining the key region for the rendered sub tree?
# [18:30] <dael> dbaron: I think so yes
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: One of the goals for this value, just like the other non-visable values you should be able to use it with the stuff that requires overflowt o be non-visable
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: That should be fine. Right now we don't have a way of saying I want to clip only in this dimention.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: This would allow you to combine, you could have hidden overflow in the y and visable in the x, we don't have that.
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen_away: I would argue we should extend clip and define it so that it applies to everything and not piggyback on overlfow
# [18:31] * Quits: renoirb (renoirb@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [18:32] <tantek> agreed with dbaron about clip compat
# [18:32] <dael> dbaron: I think if we want overflow visable in one directing and not the other ti makse sense to not make a BFC. I suspect webcompat will let us not extend and we'd need something new
# [18:32] <BradK> My internet audio seems to be pretty spotty.
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen_away: Do you know how much of a compat issue this is for you because we haven't done this.
# [18:32] <dael> dbaron: We haven't impl and I don't htink anyone has. It's been out there for years so I think there will be breakage
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: clip could apply to more than abspos if you made the rect value not apply
# [18:33] * smfr we also have http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/#the-clip-path
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: The rect notation is vary awk so the other ways of spec clip paths are better and if we had those they could apply to all
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_away: So if we're talking about clipping, let's make it part of clipping not overflow
# [18:34] <dael> Florian: Stepping back, one of the reasons of introducing this, when you do contain paint it would do a number of things incl something like overflow: clip but it wouldn't go through the overflow property, so you couldn't have resize apply to that. Unless you turn it to hidden or auto, but that causes memery allocation to go up. Having contain paint do overflow clip through the overflow property is part of the justification for having this
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: If we have the ability to be overflow-x:visible and overflow:clip the resize property doesn't make sense. We used to have a note that this is an oops and we need to fix it, but we removed it because we didn't htink it would happen
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen_away: Do you think this would change if we define it on the clip rather than the overflow?
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen_away: I have overflow:visable in both directions and have clip:bottom...
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: There would be a compat issue if resize starts to work when overflow is viable. There might be things that depend on it not applying.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: We could define to do something sensible when you have visable only in one direction. That could be an expansion to the spec
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: If you say resize in both directions, but only one is visable, the other is clip, than I don't know.
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: It's not a case that's been possible before. Maybe you can do in both directions if it's something other than visual. It's a bit more complex than saying it's the same as hidden without scrolling.
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: To do as fantasai said, this would be possible
# [18:37] <dael> Rossen_away: My pushback is I'd prefer it to be part of clipping. The overflow already happened. If the floats that are overflowing have already affected the contents, it means it happened.
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: I think it's going to be a problem to go through clip because if you're trying to contain:paint and resize. You do contain:paint because you don't want a large buffer. If you're in overflow:visable you can't have the resize apply. NAd then you have to flip and you end up with the buffer and possibly scroll bards
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I think a more common case is wanting to have text overflow apply and the ellipsis set.
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: Yes. Same problem.
# [18:39] <dael> Rossen_away: This is a use case for overflow:hidden
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: Yes, but it brings in what you didn't want, scrolling
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_away: You're desc to me having an additional scrool/no scroll keyword to overflow:hidden.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Yes, I'm just calling it clip. I'm happy to call it hidden-no-scroll
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_away: And that comes with all the BFC-ness etc. It basically clips on both sides
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: So if we rename you find it more acceptable and leaves clipping for another prop?
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_away: Correct.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I'm okay with that.
# [18:41] <BradK> I keep loosing the WebEx connection. Argh.
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_away: Are youd ef those as part of UI4?
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: Overflow spec
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_away: Oh, okay
# [18:41] <tantek> yes we decided a while ago to drop overflow properties from UI, except text-overflow
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: And in containment when it comes to computed value of both prop.
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_away: Right, right, okay.
# [18:41] <tantek> rather s/drop/move to another spec
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: I think Rossen_away and I are on the same page.
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: I'm a bit less sure.
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen_away: What if you did the changes and we can discuss more on the list or at a call?
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: Im' okay. I'm not editing clip prop so the part that is done through the clip prop someone else will need to do the edits. I'm happy writing something. For overflow I can spec and discuss again
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen_away: Cool.
# [18:43] <dael> smfr: Is it accurate that you're suggesting a new hidden no scroll because for some UA hidden makes you scroll and allocate resources?
# [18:43] <dael> smfr: I'd argue that's an impl issue. If the hidden is never scrolled, the UA doesn't have to allocate reqources.
# [18:43] <BradK> I did the call back option, but then WebEx hung up on me after about 20 seconds. WTF?
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: It's the same nature as the will-change. You could get around it, but in practice people don't. So let authors be explicit we havea value.
# [18:44] <vollick> will-not-change:scroll-position?
# [18:45] <dael> Rossen_away: I'm fully...I agree with smfr. If we're talking about the heuristic, you would create all the scroll handlers and objects the first time you request to scroll from script for overflow:hidden. Going into the behavior where users explicitly want to prevent scroll, like you're doing layout behind the scenes, for that I can see a better arguement.
# [18:45] <dael> Rossen_away: What I'm hearing is the motivation is the perf. And a new value for that is overkill
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: I understand your point, but why having a new value for this isn't good, but will-change is fine, they are the same kind of thing.
# [18:45] <dael> Rossen_away: I've never said I was fine with will-change.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: For me, I'm not the biggest fan, but if we're going in that direction this makes equal sense.
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen_away: But piggybacking on...I'd prefer to follow the good examples.
# [18:46] <vollick> I tend to agree with smfr as well.
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen_away: Back to your topic, do you...I don't know where we stand. Do we want to discuss more on the ML when TabAtkins can contribute?
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: I think we have two resonable ways forward. One is to have hidden-no-scroll and containment:paint can involke that or it just invokes hidden and you can scroll. I'm okay with both. I'm not okay with containment:paint doing the magic clip and it's not accessable manually
# [18:47] <fantasai> +1 to what florian just said
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: If containment:paint will do something to overflow, I want it to affect overflow
# [18:47] <dael> smfr: Can it not select clip-path?
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: Than you can't use the resize which depents on it not being visable
# [18:48] <dael> smfr: It allows resize?
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: contain paint does not in itself prevent resize. The thing is if it is just like overflow except not through that prop than that it's not through there means you have to set overflow to get the things that depend on that and if that affects speed it's no good.
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: So I think given the situation we're in it's too early to write a spec, but I can write a new summary that says can we have good enough heuristics and is this important enough
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: and if I'm missing something, you can reply to that e-mail.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: Does that sounds like a decent path forward?
# [18:50] <dael> Rossen_away: Sounds good.
# [18:50] <dael> smfr: I think so.
# [18:50] <dael> ACTION Florian write a summary e-mail about the discussion on overflow:clip to move the conversation forward
# [18:50] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-701 - Write a summary e-mail about the discussion on overflow:clip to move the conversation forward [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-07-15].
# [18:50] <dael> Topic: Varients of pre-wrap....
# [18:51] <tantek> pre-wrap is one of my favorite CSS features :)
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: At the F2F we discussed changing pre-wrap and allowing some fo the current impl in through pre-wrap:auto
# [18:51] <vollick> Fighting with webex a bit. It feels like the efficiency of overflow:hidden should, as smfr said, be a UA concern. If we want a will-change style hint to say that we won't scroll, could we tie this hint to will-change explicitly?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: We also said in lvl 4 we would add pre-wrap:trim
# [18:51] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0099.html
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Expalining these in terms of whitespace, but in level 4 of text whirespace is a short hand and I'm not sure how to split these between the longhands.
# [18:52] <tantek> ooh good question. is there an existing table we can use and extend?
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: That's what this mail is about
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: The longahands are text-space-collapse and text-wrap. One option is to say text-space-collapse is the wierd. Or we can go the other way around and say that text-space-collapseis normal and text-wrap is wierd.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I can see a lot of options and I'm not sure how to proceed. If anyone has a feeling on how to split these I'd appricate input
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: Anyone have anything?
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I can be more specific, but I'm not sure it's easy to think through by listening.
# [18:54] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: I have one question. This whitepsace prop now that it's a long hnad. Is text-space-trima longhand of that?
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: I can't because it doesn't inherit.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: Okay. That means option 3 in my e-mail is eliminated.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: This pre-wrap auto and trim are difficult because wrapping and collapsing aren't entirely orthogonal. That's what it's hard to ssay on which side of the longhand.
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: WE could give up on the longhand?
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: That's the new option 3.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: I can define options 1 and 2, but it feels wierd. I'm not sure of how the impl is actually done, but I think it's multi stages and when you think of the stages they influence multiple stages. If you don't care about stages, I can desc and I have a preference.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: I think if fantasai can reply to my mail, if we can agree we can ask the group it it's fine.
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: It looks like a situation with no good option, but okay.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: Okay. You have the URL, we can omve forward.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: I'm happy to spec both, but I'd like an opinion on which way.
# [18:57] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:57] <dael> Topic: bikeshed user-select:element
# [18:57] * glazou loves the smell of bikeshedding right before the top of the hour :-D
# [18:57] * tantek glazou LOL
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: It had this name for no longer relevent history. The behavior IE and everyone ahs in text areas. If you select within the element you can't select outside the lement. It's strange. I'd rather a new name. It's compat risk is much smaller than other values
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I'd like contain. Is that okay?
# [18:58] <dael> smfr: webkit impl this. The usecase we had is we wanted an element to select atomically. Our interest was outside-in selection
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: Atomic selection we have and it's user-select:all
# [18:58] <dael> smfr: OKay, maybe I'm mis-remembering
# [18:58] * Ms2ger glazou no better time... Then the bikeshedding can spill over onto the list :)
# [18:59] <dael> tantek: But your'e right,t hat was the original intent, it's just not needed.
# [18:59] * glazou as Yoda used to say « atomic we have »
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: And I think it was originally more complicated, like selecting one and not several elements in a drop down which is a different kind of selection.
# [18:59] * fantasai is pretty confused at this point
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen: I honestly don't remember the history.
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# [18:59] <glazou> who’s speaking?
# [18:59] <tantek> Rossen
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen: If we're okay to wait for next week, I'd prefer to do that
# [18:59] <glazou> oh that’s Rossen with more noise
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen: Is that okay?
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: Yea.
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: We'll defer than. That's the top of the hour.
# [19:00] <glazou> bye
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: I'll be gone the next two weeks at F2Fs. Try not to have too much fun without me.
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# [19:01] * astearns what fun! I just noticed there had been some webex chat, so I started reading it. But the meeting ended, so the window just disappeared
# [19:01] <myles> sounds like webex chat is not the way to go
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# [19:02] * dauwhe astearns: we need a snark logger
# [19:02] <Florian> fantasai: user-select (way back when) used to do several things. Selection as we mean it today was one, but deciding whether you can pick only one (like radio buttons) or several (like checkboxes) in form controls was another goal. radio buttons was called "element" and checkboxes was called "elements"
# [19:02] <Florian> fantasai: this was also supposed to apply to dropdowns
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# [19:02] <tantek> Florian, also list view <select> elements
# [19:03] <Florian> yep
# [19:03] <tantek> where you could either select *one* <option> inside, or multiple <option>s inside
# [19:03] <Florian> indeed.
# [19:03] <tantek> the point was to be able to rebuild that behavior out of any elements
# [19:03] <tantek> rather, to be able to specify that behavior via UA stylesheet
# [19:03] <tantek> rather than HTML magic
# [19:03] <tantek> on selection/option/input
# [19:04] <hyojin> I don't know why the webex is not good? I think it is a little good tool with a clear voice.
# [19:04] <Florian> The modern incarnation of user-select does none of this, but the "element" name has been repurposed to something else. The something else is a useful thing, but the name "element" is not a good match for it
# [19:05] <astearns> hyojin: It's OK, but is missing some things that we used to rely on (automatically identifying people, chat commands anyone could use to mute, etc.)
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# [19:06] * hyojin slaps astearns around a bit with a large fishbot
# [19:07] <Florian> fantasai,tantek: for what the property and value do now, I'd rather call it contain. element is confusing, as evidenced by smfr, who thought it meant "select the whole element" (which is what the "all" value does).
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# [19:07] <tantek> Florian - no smfr was right
# [19:08] <tantek> it's just that you two disagreed on outside-in aspects vs. inside-out aspects
# [19:08] <tantek> or had different assumptions thereof
# [19:08] <Florian> tantek: well, smfr was right that it is one of the things this value used to do, but he was wrong in that the value webkit implemented to do atomic selection is not this one.
# [19:08] <tantek> user-select was always intended to affect how selection of stuff *inside* the element worked
# [19:09] <tantek> but seems to be have been re-interpreted as how selection of the element itself works in its parent context
# [19:09] <tantek> "all" is atomic on the outside. element / elements is atomic on the inside.
# [19:09] <tantek> they're both "atomic" selection variants
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Florian: ...lolwut (re user-select being used to do radio/checkbox)
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# [19:10] <TabAtkins> That's nowhere near sufficient to model them. I know, I wrote the spec to do so.
# [19:10] <Florian> element in the old spec was that. element as currently shipped by microsoft (and the css-ui-4 spec follows that) is not.
# [19:11] <BradK> WebEx sounded very clear when using data audio, but it kept dropping me. I was using the iPhone app.
# [19:11] <Florian> The new incarnation of element is not about atomicity. It simply says that a selection that starts inside an element may not escape it. but you can still select only part of that element.
# [19:12] <Florian> I am not debating whether or not the old version of user-select matches this model, since nobody is implementing (or planing to implement) the old version of user-select.
# [19:12] <BradK> It seems like WebEx is also missing a big opportunity by not having a whiteboard that people can draw on with finger or mouse.
# [19:13] <Florian> Bradk: it does have that.
# [19:14] <BradK> Florian: Really? I haven't seen it. Is it in the app, or just on the computer?
# [19:15] <Florian> Bradk: It's a tab inside the desktop client
# [19:16] <hyojin> I can reach the whiteboard on my computer. It might be useful to express some idea. Thanks for the explanation about the webex Brad :)
# [19:18] <antonp> BradK, WebEx kept dropping me too, when I was using its "call-me-back" feature :-(
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# [19:28] <BradK> Seems like a separate app might be needed to get whiteboard on an iPad, and maybe nothing for that for iPhone.
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 09 00:00:00 2015

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