/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-07-15 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 15 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [03:35] <heycam> fantasai or TabAtkins, can I confirm that this document should not propagate the decoration down into the SVG text? http://mcc.id.au/temp/u.html
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# [03:35] <heycam> the reasoning I'm using is that an <svg> element's box should be an "atomic inline-level box" according to the definition in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#inline-boxes
# [03:35] <heycam> and decorations don't propagate through those
# [03:38] <heycam> and if you agree, do you think we should clarify somewhere that an <svg> element is an atomic inline-level box somewhere (maybe in the SVG Integration spec)?
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# [04:19] <TabAtkins> heycam: Agree.
# [04:19] <heycam> TabAtkins, great, thanks. I'll write a wpt test.
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# [04:28] <heycam> (or maybe a csswg test)
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# [15:54] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: heycam|away: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/#cycles shouldn’t the dependency graph be directed?
# [15:55] <SimonSapin> an undirected graph can have cycles that I don’t think are actually problematic to resolve var()s
# [15:56] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: You're correct.
# [15:57] <TabAtkins> { --a: var(--b) var(--c); --b: var(--c); --c: 10px; } is a loop in an undirected graph, but not problematic.
# [15:58] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure why I said "undirected" in the first place.
# [15:58] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/39
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# [16:02] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Heh, I shouldn't have merged that PR yet, it has an a/an mistake now. ^_^
# [16:02] <SimonSapin> eh
# [16:02] <SimonSapin> should I make another one?
# [16:04] <TabAtkins> nah, i fixed
# [16:08] <Ms2ger> Ohai TabAtkins
# [16:09] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Um, hi?
# [16:10] <Ms2ger> Thanks for the note in selectors :)
# [16:12] <TabAtkins> np
# [16:15] <Florian__> TabAtkins: I pinged you (and Fantasai and Bert) on a github pull request for a test case about tables, mainly because I wasn't too sure who to push it too, I hopped between the 3 of you, someone would either feel like reviewing the TC, or know who to push it too :)
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# [16:28] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG 20150715 conference call - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0194.html'
# [16:29] <glazou> TabAtkins, SimonSapin : I still find the — notation very, very ugly and error-prone
# [16:29] <glazou> sorry, my IRC client aggregates two hyphens into a —
# [16:29] <glazou> (see the problem ? this is an OSX thing for french typing)
# [16:29] <TabAtkins> yeah, the en-dash conversion has happened before. ^_^
# [16:30] <glazou> TabAtkins: do you think we can think better than two dashes ?
# [16:30] <glazou> s/think better/find better
# [16:31] <TabAtkins> No (we tried) and it's already shipping (and about to ship in Blink)
# [16:31] <glazou> it remains ugly
# [16:31] <glazou> and we usually try to avoid the ugly in css… :-(
# [16:31] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Is `--foo: var(not an ident)` invalid itself, or does it only make var(--foo) invalid at computed value time? I think the spec (by omission) implies the latter, but Firefox does the former.
# [16:32] <glazou> (although we don’t always succeedà
# [16:32] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: By omission, it implies normal grammar checking applies, so it's invalid itself.
# [16:33] <TabAtkins> glazou: I disagree that it's ugly, shrug.
# [16:33] <glazou> hey, Ms2ger : congrats !
# [16:33] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
# [16:33] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Oh wait, I see what you're saying. "Normal grammar checking" just verifies that it's a token stream without invalid tokens.
# [16:33] <glazou> TabAtkins: well ; everyone agreed during dotCSS conference
# [16:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "Vaue: <declaration-value>" for --* does not mention var(), and the definition of var() itself only says what happens when it’s valid… I think
# [16:34] <TabAtkins> glazou: Regardless, I'm not willing to relitigate the naming. -- applies well to all the custom things, nothing else does, and as noted previously, this has already shipped.
# [16:34] <TabAtkins> Well, _ also applied fine, but that was uglier.
# [16:35] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hmm, I'm willing to amend the spec to match FF behavior.
# [16:35] <glazou> ok, then accept my input as a Member - not as a co-chair of course, that I still find - - ugly and we should be able to deliver better than that because it’s error-prone
# [16:36] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I don’t really care either way, but since we had different interpretation of the omission it should probably clarify
# [16:36] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yeah, agreed.
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# [16:43] <SimonSapin> glazou: Can we add this to the agenda for today? Behavior of of `--foo: var(invalid var function)` http://dabblet.com/gist/b421a94a9aa2f431ad76
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# [16:44] <glazou> how much time do you need ?
# [16:44] <glazou> we already have one extra from Hyojin we should have discussed last week
# [16:46] <SimonSapin> Hum, depends if people disagree with each other. Though they do we can stop and take it to the mailing list
# [16:47] <SimonSapin> anyway, it can be next week, and it’s better if heycam|away is there
# [16:48] <glazou> hmmm, better to ask heycam|away before :-)
# [16:48] <glazou> my proposal: hyojin’s extra will be item #1 ; if heycam|away is on the call, your issue will be #2; works for you?
# [16:48] <SimonSapin> ok, thanks
# [16:48] <glazou> np
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# [17:55] <glazou> Regrets: plinss, Chris, dbaron, sanja, michaelmiller + potentially Florian
# [17:55] <glazou> hi adenilson !
# [17:55] <adenilson> glazou: hi there, Daniel!
# [17:55] <Florian> I'm here with a low bandwith connection. I'll call it, but I don't know how good it will be.
# [17:55] <glazou> how is it going my friend ?
# [17:55] <Florian> s/it/in/
# [17:56] <glazou> Florian: ok :-)
# [17:57] <dael> scribenick: dael
# [17:57] <glazou> can anyone hear me ?
# [17:57] <astearns> present+ astearns
# [17:57] <dael> nope
# [17:57] <astearns> no
# [17:57] <glazou> urgh
# [17:57] <dael> present+ dael
# [17:57] <dael> Yes!
# [17:57] <dael> yes = astearns
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# [17:58] <glazou> still nothing ?
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# [17:58] <astearns> still nothing
# [17:58] <glazou> wow
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# [17:59] <dael> Yes, now we can
# [18:00] <glazou> thanks dael
# [18:00] <smfr> Present: +smfr
# [18:00] <myles> hello smfr
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Present+ SimonSapin
# [18:00] <glazou> Present+ glazou
# [18:00] <smfr> Present +smfr
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# [18:01] <glazou> Present+ Florian
# [18:01] <glazou> Present+ adenilson
# [18:01] <smfr> Present+ smfr
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# [18:01] <adenilson> o/
# [18:01] * smfr shrugs
# [18:01] <glazou> Present+ myles
# [18:01] <antenna> Present+ antenna
# [18:01] <myles> thanks glazou
# [18:02] <dael> Present+ SteveZ
# [18:02] <dael> Present+ dauwhe
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# [18:02] * dauwhe beat me to it, dael! :)
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# [18:02] <TabAtkins> present+ tabatkins
# [18:02] * dael has been missing people for the last two weeks. I'm trying not to this time :)
# [18:03] <fantasai> present+ fantasai
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# [18:03] <Rossen> present+ Rossen
# [18:04] * TabAtkins will actually be present in a few minutes, is heading to a bus now.
# [18:04] <glazou> TabAtkins: np
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# [18:05] <dael> glazou: It's almost 5 past, let's start
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# [18:05] <dael> glazou: One from Hoyjin and one from SimonSapin for extras
# [18:05] * antonp is trying to join webex...
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I don't think Hoyjin is on and we need heycam for the second one, I believe SimonSapin said.
# [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: I'll e-mail and we can do it next week.
# [18:05] <astearns> s/Hoyjin/Hyojin/
# [18:06] <dael> Florian: Items 3 and 4 are things we discussed last week and didn't get a conclusion. I have an action to write an e-mail, but I've been busy. If we have a diff. audience we can talk, but we should wait on the mail.
# [18:06] <dael> Topic: grid issues
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# [18:07] <dael> glazou: fantasai are there still things to discuss?
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# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: The first is editorial
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: The other two...row-gap/column-gap I thought we discussed already...
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: I thought we did discuss that.
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: Yes, but there remain 2 in the agenda. shorthand computer value and stretching grid tracks in content
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: I don't...I don't know about the shorthand one.
# [18:08] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0128.html
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: I don't know enough abot CSSOM for that.
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Anyone else have anything to contribute on that one?
# [18:09] <dael> Topic: bikeshedding user-select: element
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: I think we touched on this. user-select is a prop with an interesting history. What it used to do is broader from what it does now. I'd rather not get too much into the history of what it used to do, but due to the history one value is called element. What it does now is if you start the selection inside and element and drag the mouse out the selection will start at the boundry of the element.
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: It constrains the selection to say within the element it started in. I think 'element' is confusing, I'd rather something like contain. I think this is doable because there's only one impl.
# [18:11] <tantek> right, it meant "a whole element inside" but it has not been implemented as such and we should update it (functionality, name) accordingly
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: Other browsres have that behavior, but they don't give an explicit toggle. So the name is still changable, I think. If people think it can't be changed then we confuse people a bit
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: What was the behavior if you select outside?
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: Let me check the spec. I think it's in there.
# [18:11] * tantek hopes to see a proposal on this
# [18:11] <dael> Florian: It's a bit of an open issue because not all browsers do the same
# [18:12] <leaverou> present+ leaverou
# [18:12] * glazou gaaaah coffee on my trackpad
# [18:12] <dael> Florian: What we have in the spec is if you start before and end after the element is included. And if you start outside and try to stop inside the element the selction would stop on the boundry. For outside you get all or none, you don't get part.
# [18:12] <tantek> not even sure if that's useful in any use-case
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: There is no interop on that. What's not in flux is if you start inside you end inside regardless of where your mouse ends up.
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: Opinions?
# [18:13] <tantek> maybe consider dropping it absent a use-case?
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: I don't find the name confusing.
# [18:13] * tantek apologizes for not being able to call in yet.
# [18:13] <fantasai> tantek, the behavior is that of textarea
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: The reason I find it confusing is within this group it's several times been confused what the value that means select the entire element always, which is all
# [18:13] <@Bert> Present+ Bert
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# [18:14] <dael> Florian: To answer tantek, there is a use-case for this. This is the value that the property computes to on a content: editable element. You might want to stick this in an article so that a selection stops at the end of the article and they can't get the conents unless they mean to get them.
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I could live with it, but it doesn't exactly represent the behavior.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: Bound?
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen: That's more geometric
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I think Florian point about people confusing all and element is what is compelling and it means we should change. I think contain makes sense and is a bit better then bound. They mean the same thing, but without the extra connotations bound has. I don't have other ideas.
# [18:15] <astearns> I think contain is slightly better than element
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: Do you have a suggestion for another name Florian ?
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: Mine is contain, I'm happy with other ideas.
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: I had another suggestion which would be inside
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: I thought about that too
# [18:16] <dael> smfr: I agree either are better than element. Element is ambig because it doesn't say what happens if you start from outside.
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Do we agree elements is confusing? Any obj to that?
# [18:17] <antonp> Present+ antonp
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: Okay. Let's try and find something else. WE decide here or let Florian decide and I'm in favor of letting Florian
# [18:17] <dael> Rossen: Let's disuccs on the list. I'll get the people doing this on the convo
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: I'm fine with the list, but it's been there for a month, but there's only 2 replies. If people will reply I'm happy with it on the list, but I want to resolve.
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: The person I'm referring to was on vacation so couldn't reply
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: Okay.
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: I suggest shoot for contain for the time being and revist.
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: I'd prefer that
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: Rossen?
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: It's simple enough to revisit at any time.
# [18:18] * fantasai is in favor of resolving
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# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: I wouldn't push back too much, i'd prefer we discuss a bit because the person I want to agree isn't here and I don't want to have to revisit again. Let's give him a week and we'll go from there.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: tent. resolution is we change to contain and make the final decision next week.
# [18:19] <dael> Florian: okay
# [18:19] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0252.html
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: we change to contain and make the final decision next week.
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: bikesheeding default
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen_away: What was the issue and what are we bikeshedding?
# [18:20] <tantek> thanks Florian. Yes your suggestion of contain is fine IMO. In general I think it's a good idea for the editor to move forward with a default bikeshedding choice in such cases and just await group objections.
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: Ther problem is that we pretended it's a CSS reserved keyword for a while, but while doing that we forgot it's used in the cursor prop. So it's taken even though we thought it wasn't
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: There has been a bunch of suggestions and I don't think it's practical to remove the prop from cursor sine that's shipped.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: My favorite proposal is rollback because it rollsback the cascades. I had previous prop default-value which is wordy.
# [18:21] <BradK> I like native
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I think reset was another
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: native, cascade default
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: I agree about your opinion of rollback, but I think for non-english speakers it's a little bit complicated. It implies you know the mechanism of the cascade
# [18:22] <dael> Rossen_away: Florian can you refresh my mem on what default does for cursor?
# [18:22] <astearns> "The platform-dependent default cursor. Often rendered as an arrow. "
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: It gives you the platform default which is the arrow. It's not the initial value which is auto that gives you the arrow or the text cursor.
# [18:22] <dael> Rossen_away: And why wouldn't we make this property be the default where it only selects one case of the initial value instead of holding all of CSS hostage to that one property value?
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: We could make an exception saying the CSS-wide default keyword can't be used on this prop, but it's ugly.
# [18:23] * fantasai can't hear glazou
# [18:23] * @Bert hears no sound
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: If I recall we discussed that in the past and said making...
# [18:23] * Joins: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: I think we discussed in the past at least once and said making an exception for one property...
# [18:24] <glazou> eheh
# [18:24] <glazou> was not desirable
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: It's not desirable to make exceptions
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen_away: I agree with that, but taking the keyword away from css entirely because that prop is also kind of...I don't know which is the lesser of two evils.
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_away: It seems the exception for this prop which is a partial exception since the default is one case of the initial value for the prop, where not having the default keyword which is a good keyword, doing it for this one prop seems the bigger evil.
# [18:25] <leaverou> exception is really awkward and makes CSS hard to learn. Also, does all: default set cursor in that case?
# [18:25] <Florian> Fantasai is saying what I wanted to say.
# [18:26] <Florian> +1 to leaverou
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This isn't a keyword for the initial value, this is for what the user aggent and user stylesheet set. So in the cause of the cursor prop we resolved to make auto less magic so we're relying on the UA stylesheet to provide the types of cursor. This keyword would get you back to what the UA said and if we don't allow this you can't go back.
# [18:26] <leaverou> if we make any exception, I would vote to renaming the cursor default, since changing the cursor is extremely minor breakage. But I’m in the minority on that one…
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This is a case where you really want that. You want to be able to roll back. You use the UA stylesheet a lot to mess with it so this keyword would be useful on this prop
# [18:27] <fantasai> leaverou, we're too late for that
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: We have two req. 1, I don't wnat to make exceptions. 2, we have a pretty good prop even though people might not understand we'll teach them. cursor: default is widely used. I don't want to touch it at all
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Another value we could use is reset
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: Yeah. Why not.
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen_away: So unset and reset will be hard for people to distinguish.
# [18:28] <leaverou> +1 to Rossen_away
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: That's the main downside. But it resets the values that you wanted it to have.
# [18:28] <dael> ??: What about UA-default?
# [18:28] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak) ("Snuggling with the puppies")
# [18:28] <glazou> s/??/greg
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: If you're an author what it means is give me the user level and if you're the UA it means UA level.
# [18:28] <dael> gregwhitworth: Gotcha. Yeah.
# [18:28] <fantasai> s/the UA/the user/
# [18:29] <fantasai> and if you're the UA it means initial-or-inherit (i.e. unset)
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: My personal favorite is rollback for #1 and default-value for #2
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: rollback is clear, but you have to understand what the cascade is.
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: Opinions?
# [18:29] <dael> smfr: Rollback could be a left pointing arrow, so I don't think it's a good word.
# [18:29] <leaverou> is rollback understood by people who have never worked with databases?
# [18:29] <antonp> smfr +1
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen_away: The suggestion isn't to change the cursor, it's to keep the value game for the cursor and we need to re-name default
# [18:29] <dael> smfr: OKay.
# [18:29] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
# [18:30] * fantasai thinks reset and rollback are the best so far
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_away: It's all about figuring out a better name for default. I don't think there's a better name for default.
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: Yes, but it's taken.
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_away: Anything that suggests unrolling
# [18:30] <dael> glazou: rewind
# [18:30] <SteveZ> I would prefer "default-value"to "rollback"; I agree with the comments that suggest "rollback" has too many possible interpreations
# [18:30] <leaverou> +1 for rollback. reset is too similar to unset and too vague
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: One IRC SteveZ says he'd prefer default-value
# [18:31] * gregwhitworth I agree that this is not desirable to not have a global default
# [18:31] <dael> glazou: It's hard to do strawpoll on a conf call.
# [18:31] <leaverou> +1 to fantasai
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: My problem with default-value is the other global values don't follow that pattern. It's inconsistant.
# [18:31] <tantek> +1 to reset
# [18:31] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@public.cloak)
# [18:31] * smfr transform: defaultz()
# [18:31] <tantek> "default-value" is ugly
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: We're spending too much time on this.
# [18:32] * astearns 'property-name: ⬅️ '
# [18:32] * fantasai lked rewind
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: Sone people say default-value is ugly, rollback is wierd but acceptable, there's the rewind proposal
# [18:32] <tantek> rewind how far?
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: default-value, rollback, and rewind are the best we have on the table
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: And reset.
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: leaverou said it will be confusing and I agree.
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_away: Yes.
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: default-value, rollback, and rewind
# [18:33] <tantek> unset is confusing all by itself
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: I'd accept anything, I pref rollback
# [18:33] <tantek> I prefer keeping/using reset over unset
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: me too
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_away: default-value or rollback is fine by me.
# [18:33] <@Bert> +1 to default-value, can live with the others
# [18:33] <tantek> is unset even a non-jargon word?!?
# [18:33] <antonp> What are the consequences of cursor:default in the real world suddenly meaning cursor: <default-as-in-the-css-keyword-"default">?
# [18:33] <leaverou> +1 to rollback here too
# [18:33] <SteveZ> I still think "rollback' will confuse people
# [18:34] <astearns> slight preference for rollback, default-value is OK
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: tantek has a bunch of comments in IRC. [reads them]
# [18:34] <gregwhitworth> I don't like any of them honestly, but prefer default-value
# [18:34] <@Bert> ('defer' is possibly another option)
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: I think once we have it, most people will jsut switch to this one.
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen_away: The problem with reset is it's too unballanced. Reset to what?
# [18:35] <tantek> I agree rollback will confuse people - so much jargon!
# [18:35] <Florian> antonp: default is used specifically to remove the magic aspect of auto, which is what you'd get if we used the css-wide meaning of default.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: to what it was in the stylesheet. I think of it as a chessboard where unset is take all the pieces off and reset is put them back to the starting places.
# [18:35] <tantek> -1 rollback
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: It resets to what is in the spec.
# [18:35] <BradK> Not considering native?
# [18:35] <dael> smfr: All the values are in the spec. You mean the default values?
# [18:35] <antonp> @Florian: thanks
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: Yeah.
# [18:35] <tantek> Rossen, problem of "x to what" exists for reset / rewind / rollback
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It doens't reset to what's in the spec because the user might have changed something.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: But the spec will say exactly what happens.
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: What happens is it resets to the values that it had because you touched it in your level of the cascade.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> Oof, finally got into the call.
# [18:36] <tantek> presumably something already has the value "clear"
# [18:36] <dael> Rossen_away: Right. rollback, it's basically specificity sensitive depending on wher eyou are.
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Origin sensitive, but yeah.
# [18:36] <dael> Rossen_away: Yes.
# [18:36] <astearns> undo?
# [18:36] <SteveZ> how about "undo"?
# [18:36] <dael> Rossen_away: What's why reset is confusing for me.
# [18:37] <tantek> "unauthor" :P
# [18:37] <fantasai> +1 to astearns
# [18:37] <tantek> Rossen, for the same reason rollback and rewind are confusing
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: I think rollback is better than either. You have to understand the cascade, but if you do it's clear what it does. Unset and reset you have to guess what it does.
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: astearns and stevez propose undo
# [18:37] <tantek> "uncascade" :P
# [18:37] <dael> smfr: I don't htink it's better than what we have.
# [18:37] <dael> Rossen_away: At the end of the day I think rollback will be the winner.
# [18:37] * TabAtkins is still of the opinion that "it's not precisely correct for UA and user style sheets" is irrelevant, and we should just optimize the naming for usage by authors.
# [18:37] * fantasai is also okay with uncascade, better than some others...
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: Let's not spend the whole call.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Rollback is the proposal. Who is in favor, who objects?
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I don't really like it
# [18:38] * TabAtkins but "rollback" is fine I guess
# [18:38] <tantek> -1 rollback
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Can you live with it?
# [18:38] <tantek> would prefer "ua-default"
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, prob.
# [18:38] <fantasai> tantek: no, I object to that because it's wrong
# [18:38] <BradK> I can live with it, but prefer 'native'
# [18:38] * gregwhitworth Can we think on it for a week?
# [18:38] <leaverou> tantek: that's not what it does.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Is there anyone objection against rollback
# [18:38] <tantek> ok to put anything into a draft and see authors / webdevs scream
# [18:38] <tantek> fantasai, leaverou, ok
# [18:38] <Florian> greg: this is the 3rd call we spend on this
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: gregwhitworth I'm not inclined to do more time on one item. I don't want to reallocate 30 min
# [18:39] <tantek> not counting the debate we had on this in NYC
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I'm happy to put what we decide in a draft along with other suggestions and collect feedback
# [18:39] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:39] <BradK> 'Roll-back' or 'rollback'?
# [18:39] <tantek> revert?
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: Okay, let's do rollback for now and collect feedback
# [18:39] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jun/0377.html
# [18:39] <dael> RESOLVED: rename to rollback for now and collect feedback
# [18:39] <fantasai> tantek: good one
# [18:39] <dael> topic: caret animation
# [18:39] <tantek> darn too late :/
# [18:39] * glazou tantek nice
# [18:39] * tantek was actually serious about the 'revert' proposal. oh well.
# [18:40] * glazou tantek fantasai revert is a good candidate
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: In NY it was suggested my caret blink wasn't a good design and using caret specific prop for animation would be better. It would have a few keywords to invoke a few options and you can do custom.
# [18:40] <fantasai> glazou, how about a quick "do we want to change the resolution" on the call?
# [18:40] * tantek should have not joked with previous proposals.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: I've mulled over it and I think this is a good idea to add.
# [18:40] <BradK> I think people will wonder whether or not to put a dash into rollback
# [18:40] * fantasai 1minute
# [18:40] <glazou> fantasai: yes
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: There are a few subtie points though.
# [18:40] * glazou after this
# [18:40] * fantasai thanks :)
# [18:40] * dael can't hear Florian
# [18:40] * smfr did we lose Florian?
# [18:40] * fantasai is florian still talking?
# [18:40] * @Bert can hear glazou
# [18:41] <glazou> Florian: we can’t hear you ?
# [18:41] <BradK> I don't hear florian
# [18:41] * fantasai webex sux
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: I think we lost Florian
# [18:41] * vollick_ can hear glazou as well
# [18:41] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0060.html
# [18:41] <dael> Topic: writing-mode sideways-left
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: fantasai?
# [18:41] <koji> Present+ koji
# [18:42] <glazou> fantasai: can’t hear you
# [18:42] * antonp prefers revert to rollback, but can't help agreeing with Rossen that it seems a mighty shame to not be able to use "default"
# [18:42] * dauwhe whale-song
# [18:42] * dael is only hearing odd noises.
# [18:42] <dael> Topic: caret animation
# [18:43] * fantasai sorry, glazou, i forgot to hit unmute!
# [18:43] * glazou fantasai np
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: Should caret color be animatable in addition to caret animation witht he normal animation prop. I think yes because I don't like exceptions and it's easy to define what would happen.
# [18:43] * smfr wonders if any UI wants to expose caret animations
# [18:43] * Joins: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [18:43] * smfr s/UI/UA/
# [18:43] * gregwhitworth agree with smfr
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: Also b/c if you can do caret color in normal animations it lets you do things that you cn't do in caret animations. If you animate caret color it's your job to define the blinking etc. If you're happy witht he blinking etc. you can just change the caret color.
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: It's not a major usecase, but it's a corner case and I don't think we need to craft an exception to exclude this
# [18:44] <dael> smfr: Can we ask about if authors should be able to animate the caret?
# [18:45] <dael> smfr: We see it as a part of the system bevaior, especially on iOS. I don't thinkw e want to let the authors control the caret.
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: I have a q about that. In editors the caret differs if you're overwirting, have RTL or LTR system.
# [18:46] <dael> smfr: I think RTL is interesting. There can be subtilties with editing the caret and authors may not consider that. That's a good arguement for not exposing. In terms of override we'd like ot match the system.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: The q was broader than what I thought we'd talk about. Starting with shapes, the default is meant to be auto, but there is a whole bunch of websites that are tweeking the caret. It's easy to find websites that are changing the caret.
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: Doing it currently requires ungodly amounts of JS. It's reasonable to proving a value.
# [18:47] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: I don't think it should be open to anything, that's why I'm only prop the things that are commonly done.
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: I tend to agree. Inline editors all have JS code for the animation of the caret and they're recreating stuff that could be easily spec in CSS
# [18:47] <dael> Florian_: So I think caret shape, as long as the default is auto, it is not that bad.
# [18:48] <dael> Florian_: For caret animation, there are use cases, though weaker. Controlling speed of blink isn't an important use case. However, instead of just blinking between invisable and one color, but fading instead of blinking or changing colors is something you see. We could define that and cover most use cases.
# [18:49] * Joins: hyojin (~hyojin@public.cloak)
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: Since we have concerns from two impl, I'd rec a list of websites that do animate a caret, figure out how they do it, and prop a keyword or value or whatever. Let's cover exactly what we see on the web. The caret is a particular beast.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> Ugh, no one has been able to hear me for five minutes or so.
# [18:50] <antonp> s/particular/peculiar/
# [18:50] * Ms2ger was wondering why the meeting was so productive :)
# [18:50] <dael> Florian_: I understand your point. One thing that is not hard to do as an impl and poss quit desirable is to say do not blink, jsut be static. It's not hard to impl and useful for a11y.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: That's what I said.
# [18:50] * glazou Ms2ger ROFL
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> Anyway, Blink is also of the opinion that we probably don't need special caret-animation functionality, and blinking should just be done by a property with specialized keywords. caret-color in a @keyframes is fine.
# [18:50] * TabAtkins Ms2ger >_<
# [18:50] <dael> Florian_: That's what I started with, but since caret color is animatable you can change the color, but it works poorly. If we can do blink or don't blink that's sufienct for most use cases. The animations perform poorly, though.
# [18:50] * Quits: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:51] * Ms2ger (not really, but I couldn't let that slip)
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: I suggest based on the input from 2 impl, you limit yourself to existing things we need including the examples b/c otherwise we're not going to convince them.
# [18:51] <dael> Florian_: I'll go back to mail and offer alternatives and varients.
# [18:52] <dael> smfr: sure.
# [18:52] <dael> Topic: border-boundary with border-image
# [18:52] <dael> hyojin: My topic is border-boundry and border-image
# [18:52] * astearns TabAtkins assuming you were the muted non-named caller, I've tagged you and glazou can unmute you now
# [18:52] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0080.html
# [18:52] <smfr> link?
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> astearns: Ah, maybe. I'm just calling in directly, not using the app.
# [18:53] <dael> hyojin: I've noted my opinion about the topic on the ML. I think border-boundry with border-image can be in CSS BG 3. I know border-image is complicated, but can be extended to support round-display
# [18:53] <dael> hyojin: It can be altered to fit around images correctly.
# [18:53] <glazou> astearns, TabAtkins I unmuted call_in User 13
# [18:53] * astearns right - if people call in directly, you need to speak up at the beginning so we can tag you in the UI
# [18:53] <dael> hyojin: I'm wondering if my opinion is reasonable and if there's any suggestions or opinions.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Opinions?
# [18:53] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> I don't think it belongs in B&B 3; that's a stable spec now.
# [18:53] <dael> Bert: I have a small opinion.
# [18:54] <dael> Bert: I think border image is the right idea, but the syntax might be difficult. I think it's the right idea nd we should look at it and see how to fit it into the syntax. I might be simpler for round displays. That's my intuition
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I'm a little confused. Why does it need to be different. Why not just do the round image. Like if you do a border image with round corners it's a circle.
# [18:55] <dael> Bert: So you say you don't have to do anything special, jsut make sure the middle parts are 0. That might be possible. I was thinking of a keyword to say the middle parts, but making them 0, why not.
# [18:56] <dael> hyojin: I don't know how can the border-image work, but originally the border-image works best ont he rectanglar box. I know there is no method to draw the border image on the round display. It can be extended, but I need to describe the detailed method
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen_away: Can you re-describe the use case? How is th border-image supposed to behave for round display?
# [18:57] <dael> hyojin: I'd like to draw images around the round display. We have some use cases to make application on our product, btu I don't know how I can draw the image using CSS.
# [18:57] <BradK> Can't it just use the smallest rectangular that contains the round display? The display would clip any part of the image that was outside the circle.
# [18:57] <dael> Florian_: What are you expecting will happen? A straight image bends around the circle?
# [18:58] <dael> hyojin: If I have some small image and I try to draw it, or stretch it on the round display corner, is it possible or not and how can I draw the image using a similar pattern.
# [18:58] * smfr we need some pictures
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: The q is, if you have a rectagular image and you want to draw in a round border, do you round it or place it on top of the border.
# [18:58] * glazou smfr agreed
# [18:58] <tantek> are we going to run out of time to undo rollback and consider revert?
# [18:59] <glazou> tantek: last minute thing
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen_away: If we use a simple use case, if you want to create the strikes for the second, so you need 60 around the dial, and your saying the second makes need to be along the border, but the source image is a rectangular image with one strike you'll be repeating?
# [18:59] <dael> hyojin: That's one of the use cases, yes. It can be rectangular.
# [19:00] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: I think we need images. We need figures to understand what you want. Can you contribute a reply to your org message with the images you want to use and the result?
# [19:00] <dael> hyojin: Okay, I will do that.
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: Let's do that please.
# [19:00] <BradK> Sounds more like image repeated along a path.
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: Thank you for joining in the middle of the night.
# [19:00] * gregwhitworth Yes thank you!!!!
# [19:00] <dael> Topic: default bikeshed
# [19:00] <tantek> thank you glazou
# [19:00] <astearns> +1 to revert
# [19:00] <smfr> +1 for revert
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: There's a propsal for revert from tantek and I like it
# [19:00] <fantasai> +1
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I'm in favor
# [19:00] <gregwhitworth> agreed
# [19:00] <leaverou> +1 for revert
# [19:00] <dauwhe> +1
# [19:00] <Rossen> +2
# [19:00] <BradK> I like it
# [19:01] <dael> Florian_: I like it. Had we prop it earlier and someone said it would mean something different?
# [19:01] * gregwhitworth lol
# [19:01] <tantek> yay!
# [19:01] <hyojin> Present+ hyojin
# [19:01] <@Bert> 0
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: I don't care. Let's get consesnsus. If people are away, they're away. Obj to revert?
# [19:01] <Florian_> +1
# [19:01] * tantek is happy to add value ;)
# [19:01] <dael> RESOLVED: rename default to revert (ignoring previous resolution about rollback)
# [19:02] * gregwhitworth that's why tantek gets the big bugs
# [19:02] * gregwhitworth s/bugs/bucks lol
# [19:02] <glazou> LOL
# [19:02] <dael> Rossen: On the previous topic, I wanted to tell hyojin that he should feel free to reach out to any of us if he needs help with ex. There's a lot of interet in your topic, it's just hard for use to guess what you need. Reach out opening and frequently so we can help you out.
# [19:02] * tantek gregwhitworth 😂
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: Absolutely.
# [19:02] * Quits: myles (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:02] <fantasai> \^_^/
# [19:02] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: Thank you everyone, I'll talk to you next week.
# [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# [19:02] * dauwhe buh-bye
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: ?????????????
# [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: How's your schedule for thurs/fri this week?
# [19:03] <Rossen> fantasai: are you still in Seattle?
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> I was going to answer that in a bit!
# [19:03] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [19:03] <fantasai> Rossen: yes
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> The answer is: open?
# [19:03] * Quits: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:03] <fantasai> \^_^/
# [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: workday?
# [19:03] <Rossen> come over heeeee :)
# [19:03] <dael> While we're bothering TabAtkins- did you ever figure out if there's any money to get me to the Paris F2F?
# [19:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> dael: Question is in the air.
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah.
# [19:04] <fantasai> Rossen: That's tough, I got plans for lunch in downtown Seattle and a flight at 7:20
# [19:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Cool, I'll see you tomorrow
# [19:04] <Florian_> I support spending google's money on flying Dael to where we go.
# [19:04] <fantasai> lol
# [19:04] * Rossen turning into Sad Panda
# [19:04] <fantasai> Rossen: anything particular you wanted to talk about?
# [19:05] <dael> TabAtkins- Thanks. I just don't want plane tickets to go up.
# [19:05] <Rossen> fantasai: break and logical-props
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> dael: It doesn't matter, if we're funding you the price is wtv
# [19:05] <dael> Florian- *^-^*
# [19:05] <fantasai> Rossen: okay, let's do a conf call? Those don't need much whiteboarding anyway
# [19:05] <Rossen> yes
# [19:05] <fantasai> cool
# [19:06] <fantasai> :)
# [19:06] <dael> TabAtkins- true enough! I shall wait.
# [19:06] <Rossen> I'll call you in about 10 mins
# [19:06] <fantasai> Rossen: can you give me 30?
# [19:06] <Rossen> yez!
# [19:06] <fantasai> k
# [19:06] <fantasai> :)
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# [19:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also, pls dump display, will-change, and variables into the publication pipeline?
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Yus, been procrastinating, will get to that.
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# [19:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also... Is <dfn>''foo''</dfn> not supposed to work?
# [19:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think it used to do the right thing
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "work"?
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: but we have a bunch of specs now that get double-quoted
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, interesting.
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: e.g. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#defaulting-keywords
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also a bunch of other specs where we had <dt><dfn>''value''</dfn>
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I cleaned up some of them by removing the ''
# [19:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: but, I thought that used to be okay
# [19:20] <TabAtkins> It's a styling error - it's getting a quote from the <dfn> and from the <a>. We can remove that.
# [19:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: okay... what should be the right markup?
# [19:20] * TabAtkins needs to carve out the subset of the CSSWG styles that Bikeshed *requires* and include them automatically.
# [19:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: since we should probably be consistent
# [19:21] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Markup-wise, there's no need to use quotes on the term; it just makes it a link, but you already get a permalink automatically anyway.
# [19:21] <TabAtkins> But we can change the styling to also not double-quote when you have <dfn><a/></dfn>
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# [19:22] <fantasai> Okay. I'll let you sort that out
# [19:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think it's time for WD as LC, sound good to you?
# [19:23] <TabAtkins> ?
# [19:24] <fantasai> like, publish another WD of Cascade
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> Oh. Yeah, sure.
# [19:24] <fantasai> tell people it's the last one and we're going to CR
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> Publish erry day
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# [19:25] <fantasai> well, after I fix some editorial comments apparently
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# [19:38] <Rossen> fantasai: ready for a call?
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# [19:43] <fantasai> Rossen: almost
# [19:43] <Rossen> fantasai: ok, ping me when you are\
# [19:45] <fantasai> Rossen: ok, done
# [19:45] <fantasai> Rossen: feel free to call
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# [19:52] <Rossen_away> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break/issues-lc-2015
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# [19:55] <fantasai> Rossen_away: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0279.html
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# [20:24] <fantasai> Note to self, investigate margin truncation at page breaks for flex and inline; spec only mentions block-level boxes
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 16 00:00:00 2015

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