/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-08-12 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Aug 12 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:13] <SimonSapin> wait, XML parsers don’t map to a DOM?
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# [00:22] <liam> there are people using CSS selectors on the XML DOM but I don't know to what extent they are doing it in Web browsers
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# [01:33] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Depends on what specs you pay attention to.
# [01:34] <TabAtkins> XHTML does, but that's "HTML", so it's already covered by the spec. ^_^
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# [07:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Afaict, given the railroad diagrams are informative, <function-token> is not normatively defined in Syntax.
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# [08:48] <jdaggett> anyone awake at this fine hour? wondering about the webex nature of csswg meetings
# [08:48] <jdaggett> are the telcons now video meetings?
# [08:55] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
# [10:04] <jdaggett> showing my face at 1am won't be pretty...
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# [10:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-syntax/#typedef-function-token , emitted in https://drafts.csswg.org/css-syntax/#consume-ident-like-token ?
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# [15:45] <astearns> jdaggett: no video (except for curious people clicking the button on and off)
# [15:46] <jdaggett> phew...
# [15:46] <jdaggett> that's a relief...
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# [17:09] <liam> plinss, best western ronceray opera? have you stayed there before?
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# [17:50] * hober last minute regrets; dentist appt.
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# [17:55] <jdaggett> astearns: when does the meeting start? webex says it hasn't started...
# [17:56] <astearns> jdaggett: webex appears to wait on the (single) meeting leader, so ignore it
# [17:56] <astearns> jdaggett: it should start at 9am PDT
# [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:56] <bradk> It just told me I was the first to join, and therefore the presenter.
# [17:56] <jdaggett> so we can't connect until then?!?
# [17:56] <dael> present+ dael
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# [17:57] <jdaggett> astearns: ^
# [17:57] <jdaggett> good thing the W3C is using web technology for their telcons
# [17:57] <jdaggett> oh wait...
# [17:57] <dael> jdaggett- I just got in so you should be fine if you try now
# [17:57] <bradk> I don't know what that means
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# [17:58] <bradk> Should I sign out and then in again so I'm not the presenter?
# [17:58] <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth present+
# [17:58] <tgraham> present+ tgraham
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# [17:58] <jdaggett> jdaggett present+
# [17:59] <astearns> bradk: not sure that being or not being presenter is relevant
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# [17:59] <dauwhe_> present+ dauwhe
# [17:59] * plinss changes topic to 'CSS WG 20150812 conference call - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Aug/0079.html'
# [17:59] <astearns> present+ astearns
# [17:59] <plinss> Present+ plinss
# [17:59] <ChrisL> present+ ChrisL
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# [17:59] <gregwhitworth> we don't need to discuss #1
# [17:59] <bradk> Okay
# [17:59] <SimonSapin> Present+ SimonSapin
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# [18:00] * plinss liam: no I haven’t, should I not?
# [18:00] <bradk> I suspect that if I leave the meeting will end. So I won't do that.
# [18:00] * astearns and that's the last anyone heard of bradk in the real world
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# [18:01] <adenilson> present+ adenilson
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# [18:01] <dauwhe_> present+ fantasai
# [18:01] * bradk didn't mean 'ever'. Lol
# [18:01] <Bert> present+ Bert
# [18:01] * astearns :)
# [18:01] * liam was just wondering, booking a hotel
# [18:01] <ChrisL> :)
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# [18:05] <TabAtkins> present+ tab
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's get started.
# [18:05] <alex_antennahouse> present+ alex critchfield
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# [18:05] <myles> presetn+ Myles C. Maxfield
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Does anyone have anything to add? I saw your note jdaggett
# [18:05] <myles> oops
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:05] <myles> present+ Myles C. Maxfield
# [18:05] <dael> Topic: Fonts
# [18:05] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [18:06] * astearns my corp email filter has been marking my own messages to www-style as junk. Not sure how I should take that
# [18:06] <dael> jdaggett: On last week's call there was a disucssion about the system keyword and there was a resolution to accept that. It wasn't clear to me from the minutes if that was intended for 3 or 4.
# [18:06] <bradk> Present + bradk
# [18:06] <dael> jdaggett: It seemed to make more sense for me to be 4.
# [18:06] <dael> ChrisL: My recollection was for 4.
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Mine as well.
# [18:06] <dael> jdaggett: That's fine.
# [18:07] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Thanks. It wasn't clear that that was the definition
# [18:07] <dael> jdaggett: There was also discussion of...There seemed to be a discussion about putting the CSS Fonts 3 into bikeshed and it wasn't clear it got onto that, but it sounds like there's a side issue where people are interested in having the metadata associated with that's defined in the fonts spec.
# [18:07] <dael> ??: Yeah.
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> s/??/TabAtkins/
# [18:07] * fantasai dael, you can elide my comment
# [18:07] * bradk has audio now
# [18:08] <ChrisL> Tab, does bikeshed correctly separate descriptors from properties?
# [18:08] <dael> jdaggett: I sent out a mail witha bunch of details on that. I guess my only concern there is there were a lot of trobles with Bert's processor dealing with specs that have several rules. I'm a bit concerned about the risk of introducint screwed up links, but I'm assuming TabAtkins and I can figure this out. That was one concern I did have.
# [18:08] * fantasai is in favor of resolving all of jdaggett's concerns wrt processing
# [18:08] <dael> jdaggett: If there's no other comment, I'll go ahead and try and do this with TabAtkins and fantasai and if there's an issue I'll comeback.
# [18:09] <dael> ChrisL: I think the context was people wanted to put stuff in fonts 4 and TabAtkins had most of fonts 3 bikeshedded and we went on to think we should bikeshed it, but I don't think we understood the complexity on the call.
# [18:09] <dael> jdaggett: Yeah. We'll try and work out those.
# [18:09] <dael> jdaggett: Do we want to talk about small caps?
# [18:09] <dael> ChrisL: I'd prefer here.
# [18:09] <jdaggett> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0463.html
# [18:09] * dael fantasai no problem
# [18:10] <dael> jdaggett: This is Myles's issue.
# [18:10] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-fonts-3/#font-synthesis-prop
# [18:10] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/mid/7254728D-2325-4A22-A97A-461CBEAADD47@apple.com
# [18:10] * dauwhe_ we only use natural, organic fonts
# [18:10] <dael> myles: There are certain prop that browserscan syntesize like syntetic bold. If the font itself doesn't support it the browser can do a hack. There's font-synthesis that says don't do the hack.
# [18:11] * plinss artisnal, locally sourced, fonts
# [18:11] <dael> myles: The prop is to add a value for small-caps so the behavior would be if I spec font varient small-caps and the font doesn't support, don't do it.
# [18:11] <dael> jdaggett: What was the motivation.
# [18:11] <ChrisL> YES! to propoer smallcaps in WebKit
# [18:11] <dael> myles: Theoretical, yes. I'm working on supporting true small-caps in webkit since right now we always fake it and this seemed like a reasonable thing.
# [18:12] <dael> jdaggett: My take is syntetic bold and italics, we're not synthesizing a prop as the UA is syntesizing an extra font. It's something browsers have always done and it tends to trip-up authors. They might include a web font and forgot to put in font-weight bold or whatever. They get tripped up. I'm not sure I quite see here what an author would to wrong to get small-caps or not.
# [18:13] <dael> jdaggett: If they're using a font that doesn't have small-caps that's not a fault of an author. I see where you're coming from with wanting an out, but I'm not sure I see and extra use case.
# [18:13] <leaverou> q+ to ask about fallbacks in that case
# [18:13] <fantasai> q+ to point out system fonts case, i.e. not using downloadable fonts
# [18:14] <dael> astearns: Font syntesis isn't solving using bold when it's missing, it's giving an author who cares about not syntehsizing a way to say don't do that. I'mnot sure about having a property that is opposed to having it instead of doing synthesis for missing glyphs.
# [18:14] <dael> jdaggett: Thoeretical level yes, but the thing about synthetic bold/ital they're ubiquitous and we couldn't say they're off by default. When you say small-caps your taking something that's not the default and you want them.
# [18:15] <dael> astearns: It's not really opt-in. When you're authoring you can't be sure the small caps you're trying to use with the font will be present. When font-fallback happens you might have a font without small-caps.
# [18:15] <ChrisL> q?
# [18:15] <dael> myles: The word terrible is apt. There's a distinct visual difference between fake and true small-caps.
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# [18:15] <dael> jdaggett: That goes without saying. I'm not clear on the motivation why an author would...what's the problem an author has.
# [18:16] <dael> astearns: progressive enhancement. I want small caps if and only if the font I want to use small caps with is present.
# [18:16] <dael> jdaggett: So astearns you think this is necessary?
# [18:16] <dael> astearns: I think more than turning off fake bold and italic. They other...you need the smeering or slanting to show a semantic difference. Small-caps I think would have a better fallback to real capital glyphs.
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: I think it's interesting.
# [18:17] <dael> leaverou: I wanted to ask...if a small-caps varient isn't available I think it's reasonable for the author to want lower or upper as a fallback. Right now the only way I can think of is to use text-transofrm. How do they say if small-caps isn't available I want upper-case. How can authors do this?
# [18:17] <dael> myles: All I can think of is @supports
# [18:17] <dael> leaverou: That would test if it's present, not if there's a varient.
# [18:18] <ChrisL> agree we need to look at easy fallbacks here
# [18:18] <dael> jdaggett: Most of the prop that deal with font features...it goes with the assumption that you know the font you're using. A lot of the fonts that are out there won't support all the features. If you turn on annotations, you may not hit a font with annotations so you get unannotated.
# [18:18] <dael> leaverou: If you're depending on the user system you don't know.
# [18:18] <dael> jdaggett: That's my point. We don't provide a way of sniffing if fonts have them.
# [18:18] * tantek what are "annotations" in a font context? Nothing to do with #annotations WG right?
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# [18:19] * tantek is just trying to follow along.
# [18:19] <dael> leaverou: So you'res saying authors shouldn't have that level of control and it doesn't matter?
# [18:19] <dael> jdaggett: Authors should use these features with webfonts. Then that's part of the page design. I'm using this feature and I know it's there.
# [18:19] * astearns tantek https://drafts.csswg.org/css-fonts/#annotation
# [18:19] <tantek> you don't know that a webfont is there because it might not load right? like JS?
# [18:19] <tantek> that's a key progressive enhancement case
# [18:19] <dael> jdaggett: We had a lot of discussions when working on font features for CSS 3 Fonts. One of the keys is it's not easy in terms of impl to provide fallback.
# [18:20] <dael> leaverou: But for font-weight there's a whole algo
# [18:20] <dael> jdaggett: That's a different thing
# [18:20] <dael> jdaggett: A lot of these features are cumulative. You turn on a b and c. Weither all of those are supported for all glyphs will vary by character. Doing something intellegent here gets very tricky.
# [18:21] <dael> leaverou: In most real world designs with small-caps the designers would intend for uppoer not lower if small caps aren't available
# [18:21] <dael> jdaggett: We don't have a mech. for that.
# [18:21] <dael> myles: It seems like a conceptually different issue.
# [18:21] <dael> jdaggett: Def.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I think using small caps with system fonts is reasonable. The same reasons that appy to turn off syntetic ital or bold also apply for small caps. There's nothing different in the reasoning.
# [18:22] <dael> jdaggett: Font features and they way we've supported them they have a def fallback. In syntetic faces you're running the same algo with faces that are syntetic.
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# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: You're making the apples and oranges because they underlying technical impl.
# [18:23] <astearns> +1 to fantasai's point. I don't see the distinction
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: If we look back in time small caps was a sep font face like bold and ital. They were all different fonts. If we look to the future there's potential for a font face to have imbedded the nec. info for bold varients. From a user persp. it's still a variation on that one font.
# [18:23] <dael> myles: I agree with fantasai
# [18:24] <dael> jdaggett: I think there's a real distinction and I don't like the idea of taking something that has spec fallback behavior and then creating opt-outs. Do we do the same thing with super and subscript fonts. Would we add those?
# [18:24] <dael> ChrisL: Over time I would like to yes
# [18:24] <dael> jdaggett: It's overdesigned.
# [18:24] <dael> ChrisL: Could you justify that?
# [18:24] <dael> jdaggett: YOu're adding extra prop. values that are giving you and opt-out for an opt-in feature. I'm applying superscript.
# [18:25] <dael> ChrisL: So to opt-out you just don't ask. I can see that.
# [18:25] <dael> jdaggett: I see what people are saying for the theroretics, but when I think about does someone need this, I think we're starting to get to the point where we're adding things with little value
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Why is it they are and bold/ital isn't?
# [18:25] <dael> jdaggett: If the font has it than it's available.
# [18:25] <fantasai> s/they/bold + italic/
# [18:25] <dael> astearns: You're alliding the question of fallback fonts where you don't know which font will be used.
# [18:26] <leaverou> "if the font has it, then it is available" applies to small caps as well, no?
# [18:26] <fantasai> s/alliding/eliding/ ?
# [18:26] <dael> jdaggett: Historically synth bold and ital are special and have caused all kinds of problems. The basis for the font synthesis these are specific features wher eyou can opt out.
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: I don't see any reasonwhy small-caps should be any different. All the reasoning that applied to one does to the other.
# [18:26] <leaverou> +1 to fantasai from me too
# [18:27] <dael> jdaggett: Font weight and style are font selection prop. font varient you're spec font features. Within this face I want to use these if they're available. We did for specific reasons...
# [18:27] <fantasai> leaverou, wrt fallback stuf... I guess you could turn font-variant-caps into a list
# [18:28] <ChrisL> petite caps if available, otherwise small caps, otherwise uppercase
# [18:28] <dael> astearns: Another way of getting to a solution would be to add more font feature values. I don't think this is the way to go. You have small-caps if available, this cap if it's available. Have a way to say use small-caps if available but I want all caps if small-caps isn't available.
# [18:28] <dael> jdaggett: As org spec, I said we should make this mean it just uses the glyphs if they're there but there was pushback because of compat we have this fallback behavior
# [18:28] <alex_antennahouse> small-caps-if-available-otherwise-use-all-caps seems like a pretty verbose property value
# [18:28] <dael> dauwhe_: synth small-caps are an abomintation in my world
# [18:29] <dael> dauwhe_: I have to do everything I can to prevent them on my projects.
# [18:29] <dauwhe_> I could lose my job for using synthesized small caps in a book :)
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: I'm hearing a lot of people in favor of controlling if we have synth small-caps.
# [18:29] <dael> jdaggett: So am I. I can live with it.
# [18:29] <tantek> +1 on author control of whether or not we have synthetic smallcaps
# [18:29] <tantek> s/we have/they get
# [18:29] <dael> Bert: A question for dauwhe_. I can understand avoiding synth small caps, but what do you do instead?
# [18:29] <bradk> How about 'font-transform: small-caps' that uses non-synthesized small caps if available, even if there is no @font?
# [18:29] <dael> dauwhe_: In that case you use actual caps perhaps.
# [18:30] * ChrisL bert like lea already suggested
# [18:30] <dael> jdaggett: That's difficult to do. There's no way to @supports this font for this feature.
# [18:30] <dael> dauwhe_: This is my use case. IT's how I'd make decisions. If the tech can support that is a different thing.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: You'd handle that...when you want the fallback to be full caps that's what should have been in the sourse. Your sourcecode should have it in capital letters and you use all small-caps to lowercase that and it will fallback to nothing which is caps letters.
# [18:31] <dael> dauwhe_: That's what we do. We'll text-transform lowercase.
# [18:31] * ChrisL webex appears to think fantasai is Hachette :)
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: What's the fallback if you have small-caps but not all of them. I presume we text transform.
# [18:31] * dauwhe_ fantasai is in the office with me today
# [18:31] <dael> jdaggett: That's part of the fallback.
# [18:31] * ChrisL aha
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: As long as the UA supports the all small-caps value...there are cases where you're want it to fallback to lowercase like if you have a header.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: So you have all the capabilities you've just requested. You want to be able to turn off the synth.
# [18:32] <dael> leaverou: So is that what you want in the markup?
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: Or a text transform.
# [18:32] <dael> leaverou: That would interact with small-caps.
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: No, if the source...sometimes the capitalization is b/c semantics. That would be in the source. If you have a heading you can use the transform and font-varient small-caps and if it doesn't have that it fallsback. All the behavior is available, we just need to turn off the synth.
# [18:33] <astearns> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-fonts/#all-small-caps
# [18:33] <dael> leaverou: ooookay....
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure if what you're saying gets you want you want. YOu're not allowing a real small-caps situation.
# [18:34] <dael> jdaggett: There is an all small-caps featuer that makes both upper and lower to small-caps
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: But if you text transform you're using the mixed case.
# [18:34] <tantek> I'd like to hear designer opinions of what would be good fallback in the absence of "real" small-caps.
# [18:34] <tantek> Rather than hypothesizing by all of us other smart people ;)
# [18:34] * liam [can't call in, at a conference] would prefer a way to select a font that had genuine small caps in the first place, if there's one available
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: No...if the presentation you want is all capitals you use text transform. If you want it to be small-caps and fallback you use text-transform and then fallback. If you want the fallback as mixed, we need the font synthesis.
# [18:35] <dael> jdaggett: I think we should move on.
# [18:35] * dauwhe_ liam: wish i was at balisage :)
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: I'm hearing a lot of people in favor of adding control and jdaggett you can live with it
# [18:35] <dael> jdaggett: Yep.
# [18:35] * liam has used capital letters at smaller size with letter-spacing and slight algorithmic stretching
# [18:35] <dael> jdaggett: I think it should go into CSS 4
# [18:35] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:35] <dael> myles: Fine with me
# [18:35] <dael> RESOLVED: support small-caps font synthesis in Fonts 4
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# [18:36] <dael> Topic: keyframes interaction
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: dino said it was fine so I'd like to have a resolution to put this in the animations draft, one of them.
# [18:36] * liam also sorry dauwhe_ isn't here
# [18:36] <fantasai> Actually, there's one case you can't get just with the font-synthesis and text-transform: mixed-case small-caps falling back to full caps
# [18:36] <dael> ChrisL: You mean which version?
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Since this is a basic resolution of a core feature it should go into the first version of animations we have
# [18:37] <dael> plinss: Can you sum up in a sentence or two?
# [18:37] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) ("room chaneg")
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: It is a regerous description of how a keyframes rule is broken down and how different keyframe rules with the same selector interact. This isn't well desc now and though I thought it was obv, it wasn't. I wrote an explicit set of how to break down keyframes rules. It matches the web animations model
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: Have you heard back from any moz devs?
# [18:38] <ChrisL> s/regerous/rigorous/
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I have not. They were tasked with looking and responding last week but no one has done so.
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I think dbaron is on vacation.
# [18:38] <dael> jdaggett: He's in meetings.
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: We might want to wait for him. I'd like to hear back from moz.
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not in a rush, I just don't want to lose track of this.
# [18:38] <dael> plinss: So we loop back when we have dbaron
# [18:39] * fantasai notes that this moves the topic to the F2F
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: unprefixing min/max content
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai I think you said we ahve already resolved and need to get it done?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I vagualy recall it, but I couldn't putt up the info. min and max we're 100% clear. fill we want to check in on.
# [18:39] * bradk agrees with Liam about selecting real small caps, and have a fallback if not available.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: unprefixing would be re-resolve here and put a note into the sizing spec that impl are encouraged to use these unprefixed.
# [18:40] <gregwhitworth> do we have a test suite for these?
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: That sounds good.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: anyone obj?
# [18:40] <dael> gregwhitworth: Do we have a test suite? It would be good to make sure we got all the testing covered.
# [18:40] * astearns fantasai: just added it to the ftf agenda
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: Part of the reason the spec isn't done is we haven't worked out the edge cases. We can do a basic test quite, but a full test suite would be all the pieces.
# [18:41] <dael> gregwhitworth: So you don't have any reservations?
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: Impl have these pieces. As long as they have the pieces that are consistant like if you put a float in a 0 since or a really big float. I guess we could put a bunch of random content with a JS randomizer and say if they're all identical we win.
# [18:42] <dael> gregwhitworth: Just wanted to bring it up. I don't think this has to do with unprefixing, more an interop concern.
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: You have a good point. We can pull in tests, like I'm sure moz has tests.
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: The question is who is going to do that.
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: I'd like tos ee some tests. I don't see any linked to sizing.
# [18:42] * ChrisL cheers for Greg
# [18:43] <dael> gregwhitworth: I'm supposed to be an editor so I can track down some tests since I brought it up.
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# [18:43] <dael> gregwhitworth: I'll ping dbaron and try to get them checked in. I doubt before the F2F but I'll take care of that.
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: If you do notice any holes, they should behave like floats. So it's easy to do tests by doing a float.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: Rough tests should be easy to write.
# [18:43] <dael> gregwhitworth: Okay, cool.
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/Rough/Float/
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: Let's resolve to unprefix min/max content.
# [18:44] * dauwhe_ there should be a prize for anyone bringing up testing on the call
# [18:44] <dael> RESOLVED: unprefix min/max content
# [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: Even if the behavior isn't defined yet or it's wrong, in your implementation if it's equivalent to floats, it passes.
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: That's for getting tests gregwhitworth
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/passes/should pass/
# [18:44] <dael> Topic: Ruby issues
# [18:44] * bradk still thinking about the last topic. 'font-variant: true-all-small-caps'
# [18:44] * TabAtkins supports fuzzing the CSS specs.
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: Who wants to talk about these?
# [18:44] * ChrisL dauwhe_ there *is* a prize, as we just saw
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: Annnyone?
# [18:45] * ChrisL kojii, fantasai you are both muted
# [18:45] <dael> myles: Perhaps we should defer.
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: I think so. To the F2F?
# [18:45] <dael> Topic: max-content contribution not def. for flex items
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: fantasai I think this was yours
# [18:45] * fantasai is here, just pulling up the mail
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Has fantasai gone silent?
# [18:45] <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0429.html
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: This was me going through the case of max-content and how it's defined. I think the def for flex items is not quite correct, but I'd like TabAtkins and dholbert to check it. I'm not sure it's useful to talk about here until that happens.
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: Okay, do we want to action them to look?
# [18:46] <gregwhitworth> Can you please review this too: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Aug/0058.html
# [18:47] <dael> gregwhitworth: I think this is a good one for F2F. I did work closely with our dev for flexbox and I gave the feedback. I think technically it would cover what we expect. But at the same time we want to wait for feedback from other people. I wanted to make sure nothing was missed.
# [18:48] <astearns> added ruby and max-content in flex to ftf agenda
# [18:48] <dael> gregwhitworth: It ties in with Christian's e-mail....it hinges on this.
# [18:48] <tantek> flexboxworkshop++
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: We'll just do a flexbox workshop in Paris.
# [18:48] <dael> gregwhitworth: I agree. That would be great.
# [18:48] <fantasai> (A technical one, not an editorial one)
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Okay. Defer to the F2F.
# [18:48] <plinss> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2015#proposed-agenda-topics
# [18:48] <gregwhitworth> fantasai: yes
# [18:48] * tantek challenges flexbox "experts" to use flexbox on their home pages as demonstrations thereof ;)
# [18:48] <fantasai> gregwhitworth, pick a night, we'll kidnap Tab
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: We have 2 weeks to the F2F. Please add topics and update the wiki as you see fit. That's all I have for this week.
# [18:49] <alex_antennahouse> bye
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: Alright. Thanks everyone and we'll talk next week.
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# [18:49] <gregwhitworth> fantasai: sounds good
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# [21:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Why are you converting - to _ in the link texts?
# [21:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's breaking links :/
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> Because of https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/319
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> We can manually specify IDs where it breaks existing links.
# [21:25] <fantasai> Can we make people who define both the terms "foo-bar" and "foo bar" do the manual ID fixing?
# [21:25] <fantasai> Underscores *suck* for URLs.
# [21:25] <fantasai> *and* it breaks existing links
# [21:25] <TabAtkins> Too late now - the change has been around for a while.
# [21:26] <fantasai> The olde rules were around for longer
# [21:26] <fantasai> Either way stuff is broken.
# [21:26] <fantasai> Can we at least have URLs not suck?
# [21:26] <fantasai> And make the exceptional people deal with manual fixup instead of everybody else?
# [21:27] <TabAtkins> I really dont' want to change things again and break more specs.
# [21:27] <fantasai> You'll be unbreaking other specs
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as people haven't regenned their specs.
# [21:28] <fantasai> Which is true for a lot of specs
# [21:56] <fantasai> astearns: I think the quotes around margin-box in https://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/#typedef-shape-box should not be there
# [22:00] <astearns> fantasai: you are correct
# [22:20] <tantek> agreed with fantasai
# [22:21] <tantek> arguing for an accidental policy change like that is daft
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# Session Close: Thu Aug 13 00:00:00 2015

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