/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-10-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 07 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [01:11] <plinss> fantasai: https://drafts.csswg.org/date/yyyy-mm-dd/<shortname>
# [01:11] <plinss> or https://drafts.csswg.org/date/yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss/<shortname>
# [01:11] <plinss> or just click the “rewind-clock” icon on the drafts.csswg.org home page
# [01:12] <plinss> (which is just https://drafts.csswg.org/history/<shortname>) to see the available revisions
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# [01:21] <fantasai> plinss: thanks!
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# [11:11] <zcorpan> hmm and here i thought * { will-change: all; } was a good example *because* it was invalid, so it won't do harm when people copy-paste it without reading the text
# [11:12] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: can you make remove the "/*" and "*/" so it's again invalid?
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# [16:02] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Heh, sure.
# [16:03] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG confcall 20151007 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0062.html'
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# [16:19] <zcorpan> for the telecon which i am not able to attend today, re "Behavior of scrollLeft in RTL or vertical-rl mode", IIRC the spec is intended to match Gecko. i can look into it more closely tomorrow
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# [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:56] <dael> present+ dael
# [17:56] <glazou> present+ glazou
# [17:56] <myles> present+ myles
# [17:56] <Florian_> present+ Florian
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# [18:00] <plinss> present+ plinss
# [18:00] <glazou> present+ hober
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# [18:02] * glazou is coughing a lot and will often mute himself because of that
# [18:02] <dael> present+ bradk
# [18:02] * Florian_ oh, the joy of 1 am conf calls.
# [18:02] <dbaron> Present+ dbaron
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# [18:02] <glazou> present+ bcampbell
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# [18:03] <Bert> present+
# [18:03] <gregdavis> present+
# [18:03] <fantasai> present+
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# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's get started.
# [18:04] * antonp still can't get the dial-in to webex working. IRC only again for toda
# [18:04] * fantasai is usually awake at 1am anyway, having failed to re-adjust from Pacific time
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Before extra items, let me remind you we have to collect items for TPAC.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: If you haven't reg. for TPAC you should do it today because the fee doubles tomorrow morning.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: That said, I think there is at least one agenda extra item from Bert about Houdini. Anything else?
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> Cleaners came early and messed up my morning plans, so I'll have some interruptions today.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: So Bert you asked about the Houdini meeting?
# [18:06] <dael> Bert: I was asked if we still needed a room. I remember there was a doodle, but I don't know the conclusion.
# [18:06] <glazou> present+ Rossen
# [18:06] <dael> Rossen: Let's look. There were a couple of efforts started to get more data. One was I asked people to sign up on the Houdini wiki.
# [18:06] <glazou> ok antonp and TabAtkins
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: There was not too much sign-up there. I guess the doodle was created which got more people to post. Based on the doodle we can take time off of plenary. Or Thursday or Friday are good days.
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# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: Back to if we should meet, we've agreed to meet. It's a question of do we do it Thursday, or Friday. Or play hooky on plenary day.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: I didn't see anyone sign up from Apple though they brough up the convo.
# [18:07] <dael> smfr: I'll bug dino.
# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: Do you know if he has a pref?
# [18:07] <smfr> s/smfr/hober/
# [18:07] * glazou leaves on friday and will not be available thursday afternoon, would prefer thu morning
# [18:08] <dael> hober: I don't know.
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen: But someone from Apple will be there?
# [18:08] <dael> hober: Yes.
# [18:08] <dael> Rossen: Based on the doodle Wednesday works for most except dbaron. Friday morning is good for everyone.
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# [18:08] <gregwhitworth> present+ gregwhitworth
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: I plan to attend Houdini, but I'm leaving Friday and the plenary isn't good. I'd prefer Thursday morning.
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: It's an option. There are 3 people conflicting with Thursday. dbaron Florian and dauwhe. They're not opposed, they're if needed. If we say it is needed than let's shoot for that. Reserve the room on Thursday and go from there.
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: So plenary didn't work out?
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: For plenary day...I would be in favor of it if we need it, but I would like to poke into different meetings that day.
# [18:10] <dael> astearns: I think having a specific topic for Houdini on plenary would make sense.
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: Or make it a Houdini awareness topic.
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: Or is that what you meant?
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> Present+ SimonSapin
# [18:11] <dael> astearns: Instead of a general this is Houdini or let's discuss topics, I think it makes sense to have it be specific like CSSOM or Box Model so people can decide to go
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen: Okay. Let's book a room for Thursday. If someone puts a specific topic forward for Wednesday let's also book something for during the day Wednesday.
# [18:11] * antonp asks glazou if we still should type present+ if we are attending on IRC only, or whether instead that signal is only for webex users to tie their call to the IRC somehow
# [18:12] * astearns antonp I believe the present+ is just for collecting attendance, so IRC only should count
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen: That way we'll narrow down the people interested in that specific topic. So if, for ex. we do CSSOM people not interested can join other meetings. We'll have the standard with everyone Thursday. How does that sound?
# [18:12] <dael> Florian: Worth a shot.
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen: Okay, let's have that. I'll update the Houdini ML and we'll go from there.
# [18:12] <glazou> antonp: yes add your present+ please
# [18:12] <dael> Bert: I'll take care of the Thursday. Someone else want to take care of Wednesday?
# [18:12] <antonp> present+
# [18:13] * glazou antonp, alan: dael collects IRC-only presence too
# [18:13] * antonp tx astearns and glazou
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: If we can get a room for the whole day on Thursday that would be best. I'm not sure if we'll spill to Friday. If we do we'll play b y ear.
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen: Def. having one room for Thursday is great.
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: And Wednesday can be done last minute. We don't have to write it in advance.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: We always spend 30 minutes writing topics on he wall.
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: So we'll leave Wednesday to be spur of the moment. All of Houdini will meet Thursday. Same oes for Friday, if people are around and we need to discuss we will.
# [18:14] <dael> Topic: Snapshot
# [18:14] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015OctDec/0000.html
# [18:14] * Bert sorry
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# [18:15] <dael> glazou: TabAtkins said it's been a month sicne the mostly final wording and all requests for additional clarification have been made. fantasai is there a specific request to publish or?
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: We were waiting on Apple and MS. They tentitively agreed but wanted to check with a team.
# [18:15] <dael> gregwhitworth: We're good with it.
# [18:15] <dael> hober: I don't thinkw e have additional feedback.
# [18:16] <dael> hober: I don't think we have consensus internally, but it shouldn't hold anything up.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: Meaning whoever is disagreeing will be made to agree?
# [18:16] <dael> hober: I didn't say it, but sounds good :D
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: Let's suppose we have consensus on the doc.
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# [18:17] * glazou thanks dael for not minuting the blackmail comment :-)
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: So here's what we've got...what we plan to do is if we have a resolution to accept section 3, that's the main thing holding up publication. That's part of the boiler plate added to every spec. Once we have a resolution we'll update bikeshed. We'd like to publish the snapshot itself.
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# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: We'll update the snapshot again this year because we don't have the table of properties.
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# [18:18] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-2015/#responsible
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: We need resolution to adopt section 3 of the snapshot and a sep. resolution to publish the snapshot.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: Opinions?
# [18:19] <dael> Florian: Yes, let's do this.
# [18:19] * TabAtkins hopes we can publish the 2015 snapshot in 2015
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: I agree. +1
# [18:19] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:19] <fantasai> +1
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: Objections?
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: adopt section 3 of the snapshot
# [18:19] * Florian it's kind of pending since 2012, so yeah, it's about time!
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish snapshot
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Okay. Excellent.
# [18:20] * tantek (finally)
# [18:20] * Florian prefixes are dead! long live prefixes!
# [18:20] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai publish Snapshot 2015
# [18:20] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-724 - Publish snapshot 2015 [on Elika Etemad - due 2015-10-14].
# [18:20] <dael> Topic: white-space:pre-wrap and pre-wrapauto
# [18:20] <fantasai> ACTION: TabAtkins update Bikeshed to spit out new wording
# [18:20] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-725 - Update bikeshed to spit out new wording [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2015-10-14].
# [18:20] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0272.html
# [18:20] <glazou> and https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0228.html
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: Two things. One isn't so much about behavior, but if it's allowed. From NYC meeting we set this specific behavior for white-space:pre-wrap and created pre-wrap-auto which lets browsers do something they may prefer.
# [18:21] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Signing Off. Buh-bye.")
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> ...new wording?
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: fantasai wrote the sepc prose that said the browsers may deivate in order ot match platform converntions. But, for ex. Chrome does its own smart thing so I'd rather go with language saying it should match, but not must. We can't test that a browser matches platform conventions so I don't see the point of mantating. I think should and please do something smart is better.
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: Especially given that Chrome doesn't match.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I think we should say something about what the point of deviating from the standard behavior should be.
# [18:22] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:22] * tantek is having trouble dialing in again, due to iOS9.0.x breaking wifi on iPod Touch (and making it much less reliable on iPhones too)
# [18:22] * glazou don’t cry, El Capitan killed all my USB2 devices…
# [18:22] * tantek is not upgrading to El Capitan
# [18:23] * glazou tantek wise decision
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: I think one thing is there isn't a platform convention. There's default text control, but all text based editors behave differently. So, why would you do something different? It's because you've decided for editing the behavior you want is more user friendly, even if it doesn't match.
# [18:23] * tantek since when did Apple start shipping software as unreliable as Windows 3.1?
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: We should have a goal for allowing impl to be non-interop. If the goal is create a better widget for text editing, let's say that. If the goal is match platform conventions, say that. If the goal is do something different for the sake of different, that's a problem.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: I was attempting to word along the lines of the UA must provide a smart behavior, should match platform. And be smart is defined as provide a good experience.
# [18:24] * glazou tantek remind me when Steve died?
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: I'm okay with that.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: So match platform conventions and if you can do better go ahead.
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Let's word smith this unless anyone else has something to say.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: I'll send a pull request and we can discuss.
# [18:25] <dael> koji: I wasn't at NY, but I think this issue has two prospectives. One is if platform convention should be allowed. Engines are not agreeing, but if we want two values, one for platform and one that doesn't, that's okay. My concern is if pre-wrap wraps before a space.
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: That's the other issue.
# [18:25] * tantek glazou 😞
# [18:25] * Parts: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: The resolution we had allows wrapping before and after spaces. But koji and fantasai have concerns. koji wants no wrapping before the first space and fantasai assumed that. Should we re-resolve? It seemed reasonable, but you guys disagree.
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: I think that would cause a problem...it's common to use single spaces to sep. words and you'd have a lot of single spaces at the beginning of the line. Multiple is more reasonable.
# [18:26] <fantasai> to wrap
# [18:26] <tantek> agreed with fantasai
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: We could do a between. You don't wrap before a single space, but if you have a single at the end of a line that overflows you don't count it as an advance and you let the single space overflow. Or that's too magic.
# [18:27] <dael> koji: That's more magic to me. There's no editors that do that.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: I'm not sure about that.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: There's so many editors doing different things I'm not sure which does that. If you have a word space word and if it doesn't fit you wrap the word and no matter wat the space doesn't wrap.
# [18:28] <tantek> plenty of editors do that. iOS "Notes" app for example, and "Messages" as well.
# [18:28] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:28] <tantek> extra spaces at the end of the line just stay on the end of the line, until you type a visible character, then that character starts the new line, not the spaces
# [18:28] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: There's two main goals. One is present code and in that case you want every character and not wrapping in the middle of a long line of spaces is awk. The other use case is I'm editing and I want to wrap stuff and when I hit space I should hit that because it's plain text. If those are the two use cases...code and plain text...than doing code which is pre-wrap should display every chracter and not do magic collapsing.
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: The other should do whatever intellent things it wants to do.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: I'm sold.
# [18:29] <fantasai> s/to do/to do to make plain text editing happier/
# [18:29] <dael> koji: The point I made is when you're editing code you wrap before space and break with it.
# [18:29] <tantek> existing plain text editors do not wrap spaces at the end of a line
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: So if the only change is we don't allow a break before first space, you're happy...is that correct?
# [18:30] * glazou whizzz whizzz
# [18:30] <tantek> I'm disappointed by the lack of specific examples
# [18:30] <dael> koji: After every space...what about between spaces.
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: In pre-wrap you do wrap, but not before the first one.
# [18:30] <tantek> to back up these claims of "code" vs. "plain text" editors
# [18:30] <dael> koji: I don't like that.
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: Why?
# [18:30] * Rossen_ glazou, I finally know what Zakim sounds like
# [18:30] <dael> koji: My experience is word processors don't expect spaces to wrap to the next line.
# [18:30] <tantek> exactly!
# [18:30] * glazou who has left a phone buzzing next to a microphone?
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: We have pre-wrap-auto which does what you want from a word processesor. If you want a simple mode where I press a space and the space appears, we don't have that.
# [18:31] <dael> koji: If you want code editing you want to break between words too. That's a break-all.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: break-all is between every character. It's not about spaces.
# [18:31] * glazou Rossen_ voices, I hear voices (Russ Ballard’s song)
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: I disagree that in a code editor you want to break mid-word. I don't want that.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: No one does that. Maybe in Japanese.
# [18:32] <dael> koji: They do between words.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: Notbetween letters.
# [18:32] <dael> koji: I thinkw e should create a list of editors.
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: I tried to start witha list, but it left people more confused.
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: We're starting to take too much time.
# [18:33] * Rossen_ glazou, I think Zakim is tired... http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/11/51/79/1151795385bdf43443cd6b2b6e63778e.jpg
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: If we make the change I suggested fantasai is okay with it. You had a bug filed against Chrome that would be fixed by how we're presenting. We're fixing that it breaks before the first space. It's a first step and we can look again
# [18:33] * glazou Rossen_ eh
# [18:33] <dael> koji: I don't like spaces to wrap to next lines.
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: We had an hour+ discussion about this in NY. I'm not sure we should have it again now. I'm proposing that for now we fix what we did in NY and if youw ant to revisit the whole NY discussion we can do that at TPAC.
# [18:34] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not hearing too much new information that wasn't in NY. If this is a discussion just to re-discuss, perhaps we can leave it for TPAC>
# [18:34] <dael> Florian: and we need drawings.
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: Let's conclude.
# [18:34] <dael> Florian: So do we have a resolution to fix it?
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: Not yet. Can you type the proposed resolution?
# [18:34] <Florian> proposed res: in pre-wrap, disalow wrapping before the first space
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: Comments or objections?
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: Givent hat we might reopen the whole topic
# [18:35] <dael> koji: I'd rather mark an issue.
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen_: Florian you had a test case. Can you share that?
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: Let me find them. I'll paste in IRC.
# [18:35] <Florian> http://florian.rivoal.net/csswg/wrap/
# [18:35] <tantek> Agred - leave it as resolved NY
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: koji to answer you, this is not a moment to discuss what to do instead. There's a proposal, do you object to it?
# [18:36] <dael> koji: I want to mark an issue.
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: Koji, you want to mark an issue. Do you object to the proposal?
# [18:36] <dael> koji: I don't object.
# [18:36] <tantek> anyone that wants to change it - provide a written proposal, and instead of plain assertions "editors do this", or "code editors do that", or "plain text works like this" - provide SPECIFIC examples of WHICH editors, so we can verify your claims
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: Any other objections?
# [18:36] <dael> RESOLVED: in pre-wrap, disalow wrapping before the first space
# [18:36] <fantasai> glazou++
# [18:36] <dael> Topic: Behavior of scrollLeft in RTL or vertical-rl mode
# [18:37] <glazou> for the telecon which i am not able to attend today, re "Behavior of scrollLeft in RTL or vertical-rl mode", IIRC the spec is intended to match Gecko. i can look into it more closely tomorrow
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: This is from zcorpan. He can't be on the call.
# [18:37] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0303.html
# [18:37] <dael> glazou: So Mozilla people, is there anything else to say?
# [18:37] * fantasai hasn't got a clue about this issue, fwiw
# [18:37] <dael> smfr: Webkit is buggy in this area. I agree with the proposal and at some point webkit will change to be more consistant and do that.
# [18:38] * tantek cannot say anything because he foolishly upgraded to iOS9 and his communicator has been unreliable ever since.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: Maybe we need to wait for zcorpan to resolve.
# [18:38] <dael> glazou: zcorpan's comment was on the message link I posted.
# [18:39] <dael> dbaron: What was zcorpan's comment?
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: [reads]
# [18:39] <dael> dbaron: Okay. That's fine.
# [18:39] <dael> smfr: Edge is also inconsistant. Does MS have plans to fix?
# [18:39] <dael> Rossen_: Unlikely, but I'll look into it.
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: the 'inline-{start,end}' values for 'float' and 'clear'
# [18:39] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0062.html
# [18:39] * glazou fantasai :-)
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Is johannes on the call?
# [18:40] <dael> johanneswilm: Yes.
# [18:40] <dael> johanneswilm: I wasn't part of the convo, but whatever the outcome is it should apply to page floats. I would say keep as-is, but if people want just start and end I'm fine with that.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: If we have 2d and can do inline and block, keeping it explicitly is preferable so keep as-is in page floats.
# [18:41] <dael> koji: I agree, but have concerns. Can authors remember if this prop is 1d or 2d and understand that it's inline is confusing. That properties can be changed between 1d and 2d can create changes.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: If you float block-start you're not moving inline is clear.
# [18:42] <dael> koji: Block-start is clear.
# [18:42] * smfr has to drop off the call
# [18:42] <glazou> ok smfr
# [18:42] <dael> koji: But how people distinguish why a float is start is confusing.
# [18:42] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:42] * bradk thinks it would be more confusing if one said 'block-" and the other didn't say 'inline-'
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: If you do float start nothing happens. Therefore you should use inline-start
# [18:42] <dael> Florian: But I see your point.
# [18:42] * Ms2ger wonders about inline-block-*
# [18:43] <tantek> anything with float is confusing
# [18:43] <SteveZ> I agree with Koji, we have, to date, only use "start" and "end" for inline. Therefore, they need no prefix. We should use other keywords for block direcction
# [18:44] * Quits: tommyjtl (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: We're looking into this for other properties. What I think is we should get a list of what are all the prop. that need the keywords and look together. I think I'mhappy with inline-start and -end for now. Poss. allow both. I don't know. I've been looking at 2d positioning a lot. One thing I concluded looking at BG positioning syntax is that being super verbose is sometimes convenient and sometimes not. So having start start is conveint sometimes.
# [18:44] * glazou to honor the Nobel season, we should drop inline and block and switch to quarks and hadrons
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: We might want to codify the ability to shorten the syntax. But it's also useful when you only need one keyword it's nice to put that one and not try and decide which to set null
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: And in floats you can't move arbitrarily in 2d so the position things doesn't apply for now.
# [18:45] <dael> johanneswilm: Untill we have 2d floats.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: Which will prob. happen.
# [18:45] <bradk> Float: polar-end
# [18:45] * glazou for god’s sake, we don’t have spin and flavor in CSS...
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: The best conclusion I have not is we should have start and end for now and we should think on this futher. iT's a complicated situation and looking at float in isolation won't get us the answer. But I don't think this is for the call.
# [18:45] <dael> johanneswilm: Agreed.
# [18:45] <dael> koji: I'm good with that.
# [18:46] <dael> SteveZ: So we should talk about that with TPAC?
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: Yes. We should do all the logical things. I'll add to the agenda.
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: Anything else on that topic?
# [18:46] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0022.html
# [18:46] <dael> Topic: Default alignment of grid tracks
# [18:46] <tantek> It just took me 45 minutes of restarting my iPod, turning wifi on/off to get it connected to my *home* network (that other devices have no problem with). Shame on you Apple for shipping iOS9 with broken wifi support without any way to revert to iOS8.
# [18:46] * Quits: kwkbtr (~kwkbtr@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:46] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: INt he alignment prop, int he past we had the ability to use content distribution keywords like stretch in flexbox, but not grid. We added it in grid, though. Alignment spec was written before that. It said the initial value is auto. For Flexbox auto was stretcha nd grid was start. Now it's inconsistant that they don't behave the same. So the prop. is to make grid follow the flex setup. THe initial value for align-content would stretch the tracks
# [18:48] * tantek is trying to parse fantasai's sentences.
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen_: I do like to keep flex and grid consistant as much as possible. I'm not convinced this issue needs to eb resolved in favor of keeping them consistant. Stretching in flex is a lot more common and expected than it is in grid.
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: Having the 2d layout and behavior of grid compared to that of flex, it doesn't naturally suggest that items or trunks should be stretched.
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: I'm in favor of keeping grid as start. The arguement that Jave (sp?) is making that it's more work, I don't buy that. You have to make both work and it comes from an initial value, not adding more code.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: To clarify, the effect of making it stretch only effects auto-sized tracks.
# [18:50] <dael> Rossen_: I know what it effects.
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: It effects auto-sized tracks and only by making them bigger if there's extra space. You'd have auto-sized rows and if your container is taller than the rows the extra space would get distributed.
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: If your grid was auto height to begin you won't have extra space.
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen_: I said what I have to say. Even with that...fanwas restating how it works. My comment/feedback remains.
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Are there other people with thoughts? Or would like time to look?
# [18:51] <dael> s/fannwas/fantasai was
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: Apperently not.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I'm not convinced yet, but I'll leave spec as-is untill there's other information or comments.
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: Okay. No resolution for that. We have 8 minutes on the call.
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen_: Isn't the resolution to not change anything? Just for the people commenting on the thread so they have feedback?
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: I thinkw e hould be looking for more feedback at this point. Particularly from authors.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: I agree.
# [18:53] <dael> Rossen_: You have one that's speaking right now.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Anything else? We'll close this one. We need more feedback. I agree with Florian that you're not only a user/author
# [18:54] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-break/issues-lc-2015#issue-19
# [18:54] <dael> Topic: Fragmentations issues
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: #19. How the OM model works for fragemented boxes. I fgired it's out of spec and the OM should talk about that. I wanted confirmation that people feel that's a reasonabe conclusion
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: I think so because otherwise it would block the spec.
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: Agree?
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:55] <fantasai> astearns: Fine by me
# [18:55] <dael> astearns: Fine by me
# [18:55] <dael> RESOLVED: Issue #19 out of scope
# [18:55] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-break/issues-lc-2015#issue-21
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: Next is break in inline blocks. a line box cannot fragement so what do we do with them. Roc prop. we cannot fragment. That's fine by me. If someone wants something else tell me and we can discuss.
# [18:56] <dael> SimonSapin: Sounds good to me.
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen_: So keep inline block as non-fragmented? That makes sense.
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: It's about if you have an inline block taller than the page, what do you do.
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen_: It's 2d fragmentation so yeah.
# [18:57] <dael> RESOLVED: take Roc's suggested wording about keeping inline blocks non-fragmented
# [18:57] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0153.html
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: Next is about guar. progress. We resolved a fragemntainer is 1px tall at least. BUt we didn't resolve that you need 1px of content on that fragmentainer.
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: I thought we did.
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: It's not in the spec.
# [18:57] * glazou maybe we should avoid « pathological » in this WG :-)
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: So we need to edit it that 1px on content is consumed.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: Should it be 1px height or does it consume while overflowing.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: We said it was 1px high.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: But we should consume 1px of content.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: So you must place at least 1 thing on every fragmentainer.
# [18:58] <dael> SimonSapin: Should we talk about non-0 amount of something?
# [18:58] <tantek> nonzero++
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# [18:59] * tantek fragmentainers are not subject to Xeno's paradox.
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: Since this is near error condition, can we leave the spec to say content process must be made by ensuring fragmentainers are at least 1px tall? The rest is impled. How the content is consumed is decided by what content it is.
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I think someone will say let's push this to the next page b/c 1px is too small. We're missing from the spec that progress is being made.
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: Yes. Let's not be too specific.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: Yes, you must place a thing. Put whatever you can, but there has to be 1 thing.
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: Okay.
# [19:00] * glazou wonders if the zerotude of something changes when it is observed
# [19:00] * astearns resolved: css-break will define "thing"
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: So each fragmentainer must contain at least some content or fragmten of content.
# [19:00] * glazou astearns LOL
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: I like non-0 amount of content.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
# [19:00] <dael> RESOLVED: each fragmentainer must contain at least some content or fragmtent of content.
# [19:00] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-break/issues-lc-2015#issue-24
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: Last issue, I'm just presenting. During last F2F hober suggested page, column, and region keywords would be clearer if prefixed with force. So do we want to rename them. We're out of time, so we can't discuss. It's on the agenda, though, and should be discussed at some point.
# [19:01] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: We have 1 or 2 calls before TPAC so we'll do it there if we don't get a call.
# [19:02] * fantasai will be travelling, but can attend the call
# [19:02] * Parts: AH_Miller (~4b92c20a@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <alex_antennahouse> bye
# [19:02] * SimonSapin same
# [19:02] <dbaron> I'll still be around the Wednesday before TPAC.
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: I know some of you will be away the week before TPAC so can't do a call. If you know you can't be on the call that week, please let me know. I'm skeptical that we could make qurem for that call.
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# [19:02] <fantasai> quorum
# [19:02] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [19:03] <SimonSapin> :)
# [19:03] * dael thanks fan
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# [19:03] * dael thank fantasai even
# [19:03] <SimonSapin> a 1am call is not as dramatic when you’re jet-lagged anyway
# [19:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> What is this "new wording" that Bikeshed is supposed to spit out? Details didn't make it to minutes.
# [19:08] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:08] <fantasai> Compressed version of the new prefixing policy
# [19:08] <fantasai> I'll need to publish the new snapshot first, though.
# [19:08] <fantasai> so that we don't have to recopy *all* of the wording >_<
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Oh, right.
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Well, just compose the wording, and pop it into the footer-csswg.include file, then PR me.
# [19:10] * fantasai works on prepping the snapshot
# [19:10] <fantasai> kk
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# [19:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You still need to remove the automatic link to GitHub issue tracking
# [19:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also NOTEs need to do TR linking...
# [19:25] <TabAtkins> Interesting. Ok.
# [19:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also, for some reason you're generating "https://drafts.csswg.org/css-values-3/#font-relative length" (notice space) as a link...
# [19:26] <fantasai> but if you can fix the NOTE as TR linking, that'd be a super help ^_^
# [19:26] * fantasai can fix the other things manually for now
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The <dfn> has id="font-relative length".
# [19:27] <fantasai> >_<;
# [19:27] * fantasai wonders why a validator didn't choke on that
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> That's a good question.
# [19:27] * TabAtkins can easily validate IDs on Bikeshed's side, at least.
# [19:29] <fantasai> Bert: Can you fix a typo in http://www.w3.org/TR/css-values-3/#font-relative-lengths ?
# [19:30] <fantasai> Bert: The ID for <dfn>font-relative lengths</dfn> has a space instead of a hyphen.
# [19:30] <Bert> Only needs a fix in mark-up, not in the content? Then yes, I think I can.
# [19:31] <fantasai> Yes, exactly :)
# [19:31] <fantasai> Bert: Thanks!
# [19:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: where is bikeshed getting css-namespaces-3 as a biblioentry?
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> It's probably auto-genning it.
# [19:44] <fantasai> Hm. Should be level 1.
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# [19:44] <fantasai> I suppose it doesn't matter
# [19:45] * fantasai wonders why some stuff autogens and others doesn't
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# [19:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: <div data-link-status="TR" type="dfn"> is invalid HTML, emitted from Terms index
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# [20:06] <Bert> TabAtkins, fantasai, I fixed the ID, but in verifying afterwards, I noticed that it wasn't actually invalid:
# [20:07] <Bert> The ID had a %20 and % is a valid character in HTML5 IDs.
# [20:08] <Bert> So I guess you'll have to fix Bikeshed anyway, because there may still be other IDs with % in them elsewhere. :-)
# [20:08] <fantasai> Bert: I fixed the source. :) There was a space in an explicit ID in the source, I guess bikeshed convertedit to %20
# [20:09] * fantasai just comments out all the indices for now, there is way too much stuff that doesn't link up correctly >_<;;
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> I guess html5lib outputted it like that. I now use my own serializer, so that wouldn't happen now.
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# [20:13] <gsnedders> html5lib wouldn't escape it like that?
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# [20:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And apparently the new style sheet link is http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-WG-NOTE
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# [20:15] * fantasai running pubrules
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Weird, then.
# [20:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We're not generating the appropriate boilerplate for the NOTE atm. (No boilerplate generated at all.)
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# [20:19] * fantasai pastes in a copy from the old snapshot
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# [20:21] <TabAtkins> ...did Moz just break their etherpad?
# [20:21] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: the only thing it does is escape attributes as HTML character escapes if needed
# [20:23] <TabAtkins> plinss: The server appears to be constantly cycling between "bikeshed-update" and "spec-recync", rescheduling one after the other about every 30 seconds?
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# [20:28] * fantasai seems to have reached an impasse with pubrules
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# [20:34] <tantek> TabAtkins: unfortunately yes. but plain text still should be served
# [20:34] <tantek> of the final content of a pad
# [20:34] <tantek> redirect to old.etherpad-mozilla.org, e.g. https://old.etherpad-mozilla.org/indiewebcamp
# [20:34] <TabAtkins> tantek: We were just using it yesterday. :/
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# [20:35] <fantasai> tantek: Is there a replacement?
# [20:36] <tantek> unknown - I'm looking into it
# [20:36] <tantek> I was a heavy user too
# [20:37] <tantek> fortunately aaronpk in the indiewebcamp community somehow foresaw this and created etherpad.indiewebcamp.com for indieweb uses
# [20:37] <tantek> which you're welcome to use if you don't mind putting everything into CC0 Public Domain
# [20:37] <TabAtkins> Fine with us, we just need convenient scratchspace for editting.
# [20:38] <tantek> I have no problem with it
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# [20:42] <tantek> TabAtkins fantasai see https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/
# [20:42] <tantek> looks like the replacement
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I moved the contents of our old pad over.
# [20:43] <fantasai> okay
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# [20:44] <TabAtkins> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/tab-and-fantasai
# [20:48] * fantasai thanks
# [20:48] <fantasai> ooh, it fits in my window by default
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# [21:01] <fantasai> okay, lunchtime. Still 100% failing to adapt to EDT apparently. >_<;
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# [21:53] <plinss> TabAtkins: don’t see it at the moment
# [21:54] <TabAtkins> plinss: Indeed, they've stopped.
# [21:54] <plinss> but when a bunch of pushed happen right after each other, a bunch of resyncs can get stacked up
# [21:54] <TabAtkins> Okay.
# [21:54] <plinss> so that’s probably what you saw
# [21:54] <plinss> I have a fix almost ready to go that’ll stop that
# [21:54] <plinss> still more testing though
# [21:56] <plinss> TabAtkins, fantasai: note that there are currently 3 heads in the draft repo, with apparent merge conflicts
# [21:56] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: fantasai: i don't know what you use to validate, but validator.nu certainly gives an error for id="font-relative length"
# [21:57] <TabAtkins> I don't know what heads mean in git.
# [21:57] <TabAtkins> There's... one head?
# [21:57] <TabAtkins> One HEAD, rather.
# [21:59] * TabAtkins thinks we need to abandon the Hg version of the repo, and just use git.
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# [22:01] <zcorpan> oh it was id="font-relative%20length"... i suppose you could make bikeshed lint ids
# [22:03] <tantek> ooh, URL encoding in an ID attribute. Does that mean it gets twice encoded when actually used in a URL?
# [22:03] <tantek> % = ?
# [22:04] <zcorpan> %25
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# [22:11] <tantek> so in a URL it would be #font-relative%2520length ?
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# [22:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah
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# [22:41] * fantasai works on merge conflicts
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# [22:46] <TabAtkins> Ugh, what's the difference between a "Note" and a "WG Note"?
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> Is the latter just "any note published by a WG"?
# [22:47] <TabAtkins> If so, that's a frustrating and weird distinction to make, for Bikeshed.
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# [22:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I have *no* idea
# [22:50] <fantasai> shepazu?
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# [22:50] <shepazu> hai, fantasai
# [22:51] <fantasai> shepazu: what's the difference between http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-NOTE and http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-WG-NOTE and why does the pubrules checker care?
# [22:52] <shepazu> is there a difference? I'll ask
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> The only diff is whether the badge says "W3C Note" or "W3C Working Group Note"
# [22:53] <fantasai> shepazu^
# [22:53] <shepazu> dunno if there's a process/policy point about that
# [22:53] <shepazu> I'd just use W3C-NOTE
# [22:54] <fantasai> pubrules checker choked onthat one
# [22:54] <shepazu> ffs.
# [22:54] <fantasai> it also choked on something else, so I sent it all to Bert to sort out ^_^
# [22:54] <fantasai> But Tab's trying to fix bikeshed
# [22:54] <shepazu> I'll straighten that bit out if I can
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# [22:55] <shepazu> an Interest Group can't publish a WG Note, obviously, so the general Note should be the default
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# [23:05] <shepazu> TabAtkins, for now, use WG-Note
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# [23:05] <shepazu> which is what WGs publish
# [23:05] <shepazu> IGs also have Notes
# [23:06] <shepazu> we may streamline this as part of an upcoming conversation about our different kinds of document statuses
# [23:06] <TabAtkins> That means Bikeshed either has to (a) make "Status:NOTE" specs use WG-Note, on the assumption that they're from a WG, or (b) add a new "WG-NOTE" status, which WGs should use for their notes.
# [23:06] <TabAtkins> Both options seem bad, and this distinction seems silly. I'd rather push back on the distinction first.
# [23:07] <shepazu> I agree, but pragmatically, are any IGs using Bikeshed?
# [23:07] <TabAtkins> The TAG is, for one.
# [23:07] <shepazu> that's a WG
# [23:08] <shepazu> for the purposes of publishing
# [23:08] * shepazu just talked to IanJ
# [23:08] <TabAtkins> Anything from WICG should be using Bikeshed.
# [23:08] <shepazu> ok
# [23:09] <shepazu> I'll push the issue with SysTeam
# [23:09] <shepazu> I agree there shouldn't be a distinction
# [23:09] <shepazu> but Community Groups don't publish Notes, they publish Reports
# [23:10] <fantasai> Memoranda of Understanding should be the next thing
# [23:10] <shepazu> huh?
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> Is joke.
# [23:10] * fantasai lol
# [23:11] <shepazu> Memoranda of Misunderstanding
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> shepazu: I'm just wondering where this "WG Note" concept even came from. We've published notes for years as Notes.
# [23:11] <shepazu> TabAtkins, then you were doing it wrong :)
# [23:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-2010/
# [23:11] <fantasai> Nope
# [23:11] <fantasai> I think we just haven't published since 2010
# [23:11] <shepazu> this goes back much earlier
# [23:12] <fantasai> 2010 is pre-bikeshed
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> Well, I clearly got the Note stylesheet link from *somewhere*, and that somewhere is most likely one of our specs.
# [23:13] <shepazu> I still think it's a dumb distinction, so I'll push it
# [23:13] <shepazu> but not too hard, because I have bigger fish to fry
# [23:13] <shepazu> or… tofu…
# [23:13] <TabAtkins> You don't have to eat the fish, just fry it. That shouldn't compromise your vegetarianism.
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# [23:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It might've been my fault, I might've sent the wrong link
# [23:14] <shepazu> TabAtkins, sure, but I'd feel ichy :P
# [23:14] <shepazu> (you see what I did there?)
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Actually, no, it was just done automatically; besides a few exceptions, the stylesheet is just "W3C-{uppercase status}".
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> I had just assumed that the note status was, you know, NOTE, and it happens to work.
# [23:15] <fantasai> kk
# [23:16] <shepazu> this is one of those minor distinctions that people apparently used to care about
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> And the TAG's publications are all done with W3C-NOTE as well, since I have an explicit exception making their "FINDING" status use W3C-NOTE
# [23:16] <fantasai> We could add a WG-NOTE status that spits out the same boilerplate but it'l just work on finding the style sheet
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> Or we coudl add nothing and let shep make the problem go away.
# [23:17] * fantasai thinks its faster to make pubrules happy, pubrules doesn't like being changed
# [23:19] * fantasai goes to spend some time outside before the sun runs away >_<
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# [23:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Notes have been TR-level for forever. If they're linking to EDs, that *should* be just because the anchor doesn't exist in the TR (perhaps in the properly metadata'd form Bikeshed needs?).
# [23:39] <TabAtkins> Example of mislinking would be great.
# [23:46] <shepazu> TabAtkins, fantasai, just got agreement from plh that the distinction *shouldn't* matter, and that we're going to try to collapse WG and IG Notes into just Notes in the next version of the process, and in the meantime, treat them as the same class of thing… now, for pubrules…
# [23:46] <shepazu> we are no longer going to touch the old purules checker
# [23:47] <shepazu> but we are prioritizing adding Notes to the new pubrules checker
# [23:47] <shepazu> hopefully before TPAC
# [23:47] <shepazu> but otherwise soon after
# [23:47] <shepazu> so, for Notes, you'll need to use the new pubrules checker
# [23:47] <shepazu> and only once that's done
# [23:48] <shepazu> sound reasonable?
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# [23:55] <TabAtkins> shepazu: Works for me.
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 08 00:00:00 2015

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