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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 15 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  12. # [01:23] <adenilson> Anyone around that could answer a few questions I have on http://www.w3.org/TR/css-round-display-1/
  13. # [01:23] <adenilson> ?
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  127. # [17:24] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: fantasai: how are negative margins on flex items supposed to behave?
  128. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Like a negative-margin element in any other layout mode?
  129. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Like, the layout algo works on the margin box. So a negative margin just makes that box smaller.
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  131. # [17:30] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: oh
  132. # [17:30] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: it doesn't affect the positioning of the box?
  133. # [17:30] <cbiesinger> that was ambiguous
  134. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> Of course it does, the same way that a positive margin does.
  135. # [17:31] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: ok so we shrink the margin box, we run the layout algorithm, and then we move the box left according to its negative margin-left?
  136. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> Yes. Exactly the same as a positive margin-left. ^_^
  137. # [17:32] <cbiesinger> fair enough :p
  138. # [17:32] <cbiesinger> of course we need to floor the size at 0
  139. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the size of a box is always floored at 0.
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  145. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> I don’t remember finding a clear point in the spec that says floor at zero, except as a side effect of min-width
  146. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> weasyprint had negative widths before it implemented min-width
  147. # [18:53] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: to confirm, width: 20px; margin-left: -20px; should show no content, right?
  148. # [18:53] <cbiesinger> wait, that's not right
  149. # [18:53] <cbiesinger> it should overflow if nothing else
  150. # [18:53] <cbiesinger> where did my content go?
  151. # [18:56] <cbiesinger> ok here we go
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  153. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yeah, I believe you that it's underspecified
  154. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Yes, overflow
  155. # [19:23] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: but should the flex algorithm freeze the width to zero in this case? (note: it doesn't right now, in chrome/ff)
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  159. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Is it inflexible?
  160. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> (I'm wondering if you're asking because this is a special case, or if it's a "width + margin" vs "just width" thing.)
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  162. # [19:59] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: it is shrinkable but not growable; maybe I should try flex: none;. I consider it a special case because a negative margin is unusual...
  163. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> negative margin is no more unusual than positive margin.
  164. # [20:09] <cbiesinger> if you say so :p
  165. # [20:10] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: anyway basically my question is: http://jsbin.com/cabaqemoza/edit?html,css,output
  166. # [20:10] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: should there be any red visible?
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  168. # [20:12] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: (I ask because you say the algorithm works on the margin box, and this sets the margin box to zero)
  169. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah, looking in now.
  170. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Okay, it's correct that the flexbox is 20px wide - item2's margin box shrinks to 0, so the summed size of the contents is only 20px.
  171. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, no, the flexbox is only 10px in this example.
  172. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Hm, I guess it's considering item2 as being -10px wide.
  173. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Refresh me - margin boxes *do* get clamped to zero size, right? They can't go negative and cause a container to be *smaller* than the rest of the contents?
  174. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> (I think she's driving right now.)
  175. # [20:17] <cbiesinger> oh, I was assuming that part was definitely wrong -- I was more wondering if item2 should end up at 0 width?
  176. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Ah!
  177. # [20:17] <cbiesinger> but if you think that the container should not be 20px wide, let me know!
  178. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> No, it shouldn't. It's width is 20px, the negative margin just movies it.
  179. # [20:18] <cbiesinger> ok.
  180. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> I *think* the container should be 20px, but let me check some other examples real quick
  181. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Okay, yeah, setting up the same situation with floats, the container doesn't get smaller than its other contents. (The super-negative-margin child gets clamped to zero for the purpose of sizing calculations, in other words.)
  182. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> So yeah, the flexbox should be 20px wide (one 20px child, one 0px child)
  183. # [20:23] <cbiesinger> well, one 20px child, and an "out of flow-ish" 20 px child, right? totaling 20px
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  185. # [20:26] <cbiesinger> that was poor wording, but my point is that it is still 20px wide
  186. # [20:26] <cbiesinger> just doesn't affect the container width
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  190. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Yes. One 0px margin-box child. ^_^
  191. # [20:36] <cbiesinger> true. right. :)
  192. # [20:37] * cbiesinger goes to write a full reftest for this
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  196. # [21:18] <gsnedders> So, uh, yeah. I'm going to be trying to get almost all of the 2.1 testsuite moved over to reftests in the months after TPAC.
  197. # [21:18] <gsnedders> FWIW.
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  199. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: +1
  200. # [21:57] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: that reviewable thing is something I'll have to get used to
  201. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> I've never used it before either.
  202. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> I'm fine with sticking to GH reviewing if you want. ^_^
  203. # [21:58] <cbiesinger> eh, either way
  204. # [22:00] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: so it looks like this travis thing builds everything twice, why is that?
  205. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Not a clue, I've had nothing to do with the testing setup.
  206. # [22:00] <cbiesinger> heh, fair enough
  207. # [22:03] <gsnedders> cbiesinger: I should build every commit in the PR
  208. # [22:03] <cbiesinger> gsnedders: there's only one
  209. # [22:03] <cbiesinger> gsnedders: does it build the base revision separately...?
  210. # [22:04] <gsnedders> cbiesinger: it shouldn't. weird if it actually is.
  211. # [22:05] <cbiesinger> gsnedders: https://travis-ci.org/w3c/csswg-test/builds/85603877 - two sections of "Building" messages
  212. # [22:05] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: looks good now?
  213. # [22:05] <cbiesinger> ah you must be kidding me, our <video> controls depend on the broken handling of negative margins
  214. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> cbiesinger: Yaaaaay, at least those can b efixed.
  215. # [22:07] <cbiesinger> yeah
  216. # [22:24] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  217. # [23:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Just got online
  218. # [23:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: 20 mi @ 20mph sucks
  219. # [23:35] * fantasai got herself tea and a monitor and is all set to read scrollback ^o^
  220. # [23:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins, cbiesinger: Margin boxes do not get floored at zero
  221. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: For the purpose of sizing container.
  222. # [23:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins, cbiesinger however boxes and containing blocks get floored at zero
  223. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that. ^_^
  224. # [23:37] <cbiesinger> ?
  225. # [23:37] <cbiesinger> what does it mean that containing blocks get floored at zero?
  226. # [23:38] <fantasai> There is no such thing as a negative-width containing block
  227. # [23:38] <fantasai> Ordinarily this is because containing blocks are derived from content boxes, which are floored at zero
  228. # [23:38] <fantasai> (or from padding boxes, which are likewise floored at zero)
  229. # [23:39] <fantasai> but containing blocks derived from line-broken inline boxes could theoretically be negative
  230. # [23:39] <fantasai> but they're not
  231. # [23:39] <fantasai> I don't remember how they're not, but they're not
  232. # [23:39] <cbiesinger> ah I see
  233. # [23:40] <fantasai> however margin boxes can be negative :)
  234. # [23:40] <cbiesinger> but you agree that <div style="display: flex"><div style="width: 20px"></div><div style="width: 20px; margin-left: -40px;"> <-- flexbox should have a width of 20px not 0?
  235. # [23:41] <fantasai> if you have -20px margins and a 10px content box, then your effective margin-box size is -30px
  236. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Point is that if a container is content-sized, and has one 20px child and one child with {width: 20px; margin-left: -30px;}, the container should be 20px wide, not 10px.
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  238. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> This is how floats work, and it's how Flexbox should work too.
  239. # [23:43] <fantasai> Floats are different
  240. # [23:44] <fantasai> The model you want is heights in block containers
  241. # [23:44] <cbiesinger> you two duke it out, I gotta go :p
  242. # [23:44] * cbiesinger will read scrollback later
  243. # [23:44] <fantasai> If you have one 20px height child, and one child with height: 20px; margin-bottom: -30px
  244. # [23:44] <fantasai> Then you have a 10px height container
  245. # [23:44] <fantasai> Floats are different because your main axis is still downward
  246. # [23:45] <fantasai> You place the first float, and then you're like "hey, I still got room for this other float, because it doesn't take up any room"
  247. # [23:45] <fantasai> It's like placing a negative-width inline box next to it
  248. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Ugh, I didn't realize that block heights worked differently, that's dumb.
  249. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> I tried it with inlines, but they went screwy in a way I couldn't figure out. ^_^
  250. # [23:47] <fantasai> :)
  251. # [23:47] <fantasai> Block heights make sense
  252. # [23:48] <fantasai> your height is the bottom edge of your last child
  253. # [23:48] <fantasai> that's it
  254. # [23:48] <fantasai> Ending up with the height of the previous child because you have a negative margin that covers it is weird
  255. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> A float containing floats should be in the same situation - its right edge should be the right edge of its last floating child. (Pretend that there are no other hcildren.) But it's not.
  256. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> It just sums up the widths of its floating children, flooring at zero, and becomes that width.
  257. # [23:52] <fantasai> If it did that, then that would make sense
  258. # [23:52] <fantasai> But that's not the answer you gave me above
  259. # [23:52] <fantasai> So I'm confused
  260. # [23:52] <fantasai> If you ran that forumla, you'd get 10px above.
  261. # [23:52] <fantasai> er, zero
  262. # [23:52] <fantasai> depending whether we were talkign about -30 or -40 px margins..
  263. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> ...no, it would be 20px, like I said up above.
  264. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> *flooring the widths of its floating children at 0*
  265. # [23:55] <fantasai> oh
  266. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> that phrase might not have been clear on its scope, sorry
  267. # [23:55] <fantasai> I read that as flooring the width of the containing block :)
  268. # [23:55] <fantasai> which is what actually makes sense imho
  269. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Not what happens, tho, and I dispute you on it necessarily making sense. ^_^
  270. # [23:55] <fantasai> flooring children at zero would be really weird if you had a bunch of them
  271. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> How?
  272. # [23:56] <fantasai> Put some stuff that's not negative after the negative child ^_^
  273. # [23:56] <fantasai> If you floor each child at zero when calculating the width
  274. # [23:56] <fantasai> then the width ends up being a lot wider than the content
  275. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> That's not how floats work, at least in Blink.
  276. # [23:57] * TabAtkins tries it in FF.
  277. # [23:57] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  278. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Or FF.
  279. # [23:57] * fantasai doesn't understand what you're saying
  280. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ccontainer%3E%0A%20%3Cchild%3Efoo%3C%2Fchild%3E%0A%20%3Cchild%3Ebar%3C%2Fchild%3E%0A%20%3Cchild%3Ebaz%3C%2Fchild%3E%0A%3C%2Fcontainer%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Abody%20*%20{%20margin%3A%202px%3B%20padding%3A%202px%3B%20background%3A%20rgba%280%2C0%2C0%2C.2%29%3B%20}%0Acontainer%2C%20chi
  281. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> ld%20{%20display%3A%20block%3B%20float%3A%20left%3B}%0Achild%20{%20height%3A%2020px%3B%20}%0Achild%3Anth-child%282%29%20{%20margin-left%3A%20-40px%3B%20}
  282. # Session Close: Fri Oct 16 00:00:00 2015

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