/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-10-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 16 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  4. # [00:00] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3682
  5. # [00:00] <fantasai> The container is as wide as two boxes
  6. # [00:00] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  7. # [00:00] <fantasai> because the third box isn't allowed to move leftwards of the first box's right edge
  8. # [00:00] <fantasai> We do *not* want that rule in flexbox
  9. # [00:01] <fantasai> and that explains why the containing block floors at 20px -- it's following the same rule
  10. # [00:01] <fantasai> floats are not linear
  11. # [00:02] <fantasai> they're "every float for itself"
  12. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> I'm... okay with that rule in Flexbox?
  13. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Like, block's behavior that the third just follows the second up into the stratosphere is bizarre.
  14. # [00:03] <fantasai> It totally makes sense, I have no idea why you have a problem with this
  15. # [00:03] <fantasai> You place one box after the other box
  16. # [00:03] <fantasai> you don't care about where earlier boxes are because your reference edge is the previous box
  17. # [00:04] <fantasai> It's very simple
  18. # [00:04] <fantasai> It makes sense with negative sizes
  19. # [00:04] <fantasai> and it is linear as opposed to quadratic
  20. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> That's a possible rule to follow, yes. Another possible rule to follow is that you do that, but box sizes are floored at zero for the purpose of the container's layout.
  21. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Why would the latter be quadratic?
  22. # [00:04] <fantasai> *that does not make sense and is not what floats do anyway*
  23. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Sure. It's *similar* to what they do. (I'd be interested in seeing an example that shows a difference.)
  24. # [00:06] <fantasai> Look at that example again. If you do box-follows-box and *also* do "floor boxes at zero before calculating container as its sum"
  25. # [00:06] <fantasai> then that example ends up being as wide as two boxes
  26. # [00:06] <fantasai> but the third box gets shifted 40px to the left
  27. # [00:06] <fantasai> so you have this 40px gap in the box
  28. # [00:06] <fantasai> *THAT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE*
  29. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> ...why would it get shifted 40px left?
  30. # [00:07] <fantasai> because the previous box was 40px to the left
  31. # [00:07] <fantasai> and you said we're doing box-follows-box
  32. # [00:07] <fantasai> so, the third box moves leftward 40px so its left edge lines up with the second boxe's right edge
  33. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, obviously, *mixing* behaviors (boxes always immediately follow preceding boxes, *and* floor at zero) doesn't make sense.
  34. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> When did I say we we're doing box-follows-box?
  35. # [00:08] <fantasai> "Another possible rule to follow is that you do that, but box sizes are floored at zero for the purpose of the container's layout.
  36. # [00:08] <fantasai> "
  37. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> "for the purpose of the container's layout" includes positioning the container's children.
  38. # [00:08] <fantasai> I dereferenced "that" to the most immediately previously-mentioned behavior
  39. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> So it treats the second child as zero for the purpose of placing the third child.
  40. # [00:08] <fantasai> That's dumb.
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  42. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Okay?
  43. # [00:09] <fantasai> What's the point of negative margins if you're flooring them at zero
  44. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> It's, as far as I can tell, indistinguishable from teh float behavior?
  45. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> What's the point of negative margins so large they overwhelm the rest of the box's size in the first place?
  46. # [00:09] <fantasai> That's not your problem
  47. # [00:09] <fantasai> that's the author's problem
  48. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  49. # [00:09] <fantasai> and maybe in that particular design
  50. # [00:09] <fantasai> it's not a problem
  51. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> I doubt it's ever not a problem.
  52. # [00:09] <fantasai> It should behave like block layout
  53. # [00:09] <fantasai> not like floats
  54. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> You keep saying that, but you haven't actually established a reason *why* the block behavior is better than the float behavior.
  55. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Why not allow floats the same behavior?
  56. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Their rules happen to pop out something different, but why is that better for them?
  57. # [00:10] <fantasai> because it doesn't have an arbitrary limit
  58. # [00:10] <fantasai> for no good reason
  59. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> ?
  60. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> What arbitrary limit?
  61. # [00:10] <fantasai> Floats do something different because they're following a different rule
  62. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  63. # [00:11] <fantasai> Each box must be to one side of *every box before it"*
  64. # [00:11] <fantasai> That's reasonable for floats
  65. # [00:11] <fantasai> It's also quadratic
  66. # [00:11] <fantasai> and it's not a necessary behavior here
  67. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> No it's not. It's only quadratic in an excessively naive impl.
  68. # [00:11] <fantasai> Zero
  69. # [00:11] <fantasai> Okay, whatever
  70. # [00:11] <fantasai> I still don't agree with this
  71. # [00:11] <fantasai> and I don't think anything in the spec says that you should do this
  72. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Same as block would be quadratic if the rule was "each box's top must be placed at the sum of the previous boxe's heights".
  73. # [00:11] <fantasai> and I am against changing the spec to say we should do this.
  74. # [00:12] * fantasai is done
  75. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> lol ok, but I'm taking it to the list
  76. # [00:12] <fantasai> You want it changed, file an issue and get the WG to agree.
  77. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> because I'm *not* certain the behavior is right.
  78. # [00:14] <fantasai> Anyway, let's work on something more useful than arguing over overly-negative boxes ?
  79. # [00:14] <fantasai> :)
  80. # [00:14] * fantasai doesn't have much time today
  81. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> *you're* an overly negative box.
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  83. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, let's see what else needs to be done...
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  85. # [00:35] <adenilson> TabAtkins: ping? Thanks for merging the css-round-display preposition fix. If you think is fine, there is another one at: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/59
  86. # [00:36] <adenilson> and should I submit a merge concerning the re-phrasing of the note? i.e. “If the shapes of displays are various, ...” -> “For other shapes, …”
  87. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, will check the others, just happened across the first while doing something else. Busy right now. ^_^
  88. # [00:55] <adenilson> Coolio.
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  192. # [20:23] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: fantasai: fyi, current FF and blink impl do not interoperate on this negative margin issue
  193. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Unsurprising! For Flexbox specifically?
  194. # [20:24] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: yes, though I didn't test non-flexbox cases
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  201. # [20:44] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: should I email www-style for the negative margin thing? it sounds like you and elika didn't agree
  202. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> I'm finishing up an email I started yesterday now.
  203. # [20:45] <cbiesinger> ah great
  204. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> If you could send me your testcase demonstrating diff behavior, that'd be great.
  205. # [20:45] <cbiesinger> thanks :)
  206. # [20:45] <cbiesinger> sure one sec, though the pull request should work too
  207. # [20:49] <cbiesinger> hmm maybe I was just getting confused
  208. # [20:49] <cbiesinger> that testcase is interoperable??
  209. # [20:51] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: ok as far as I can tell I was wrong, chrome and firefox are currently interoperable
  210. # [20:51] <cbiesinger> http://plexode.com/eval3/#s=aekVQXANJVQMbAx1yAXgePQN5GwFKT02fRg5HTUZZHAGLDoidSFNGRk+phJ0UUVkBQ01CREwBhxyaHz1PlZeZA4KdExG4qYOdEs6oqqydsEWphg5/nQ4V1MIDHx0QcsRPxeboA14A
  211. # [20:52] <cbiesinger> and behave according to what fantasai suggested, I think
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