/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-10-21 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 21 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:37] <cbiesinger> TabAtkins: fantasai: did you two come to a conclusion re negative margin-box boxes?
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> Not yet, no.
# [00:39] <cbiesinger> ok
# [00:40] * cbiesinger will ignore that issue for now
# [00:41] <gsnedders> is there any plan for anything like text-overflow:ellipsis for the end of block box, instead of the inline box?
# [00:41] * gsnedders forgets what the term he actually means here is
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# [00:44] <cbiesinger> gsnedders: funny you should ask that: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=305376#c25
# [00:46] <gsnedders> Yay!
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# [01:11] <adenilson> TabAtkins: about https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/62
# [01:12] <adenilson> I made the changes in the Overview.bs file. How can I generate the HTML to see if the changes look ok?
# [01:12] <TabAtkins> adenilson: Run Bikeshed, either locally or remotely at https://api.csswg.org/bikeshed/
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# [01:19] <adenilson> TabAtkins: should be ok now.
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# [07:52] <fantasai> How do I delete changesets from git?
# [07:52] * fantasai accidentally changed the wrong set of files
# [07:52] <Florian> committed already ? pushed already?
# [07:52] <fantasai> committed not pushed
# [07:54] <Florian> version simple: "git reset --hard id-of-the-commit-that-was correct", then you're back in a clean state, all incorrect changes will be a garbage collection away from being lost forever.
# [07:54] <Florian> Alternatively, if you don't want to drop all these commits, just tweak them, then you do:
# [07:54] <fantasai> no, I'll just drop them
# [07:55] <Florian> ok
# [07:55] <Florian> quick note, the previous incantation presumes the branch you want to fix is the one you want to fix
# [07:55] <Florian> oops
# [07:55] <Florian> is the one you have already checked out
# [07:55] <Florian> if not, check out the branch to fix first
# [07:56] <fantasai> there's only one branch I think
# [07:56] <Florian> then you cannot go wrong
# [07:57] <fantasai> Okay, looks about right now. :) Thanks :)
# [07:57] <Florian> In git, "branches" are just named references to a commit id. The above command just forcibly changes what the current branch should point to
# [07:57] <Florian> cool
# [07:57] * fantasai is now going to use mercurial to replay the changes made offline and commit them correctly into the repo
# [07:58] <Florian> if you like that better
# [07:59] <fantasai> well, it was the best way I had to stash changes in separate commits
# [07:59] <fantasai> while I was offline and couldn't get an answer to "how do I delete a changeset" from the man pages
# [07:59] * fantasai used mercurial queues
# [08:00] <Florian> If you're finding yourself using git often, it's worth learning it properly. Once you grok how it views the world, it's a very simple model
# [08:00] <Florian> It's been a while since I read it, but I think this book is pretty good
# [08:00] <Florian> https://progit.org/
# [08:01] * fantasai thanks :)
# [08:02] <Florian> and I recommend reading chapter 10 (Git Internals) after chapter 1 (Getting Started) and 2 (Git Basics)
# [08:02] <Florian> Git makes so much more sense when you understand its internal model.
# [08:03] <Florian> But then again, I'm the kind of guy who learns CSS after joining the CSSWG, so maybe my learning process is backwards compared to most people.
# [08:04] <fantasai> I learned C++ by reading nsLineLayout, so I'm not sure I'm ahead of you there
# [08:04] <fantasai> :)
# [08:04] <Florian> Then take chapter 10 early.
# [08:07] <fantasai> okay
# [08:09] <Florian> Once you've done that, making the mapping between the high level human concept of the thing you want to do, and the thing you want git to do to its internal structures is very simple. And then searching the docs for the later is much easier than for the former. You're just looking for syntax information, not conceptual information.
# [08:11] * fantasai nods
# [08:11] <fantasai> okay, let's see if I successfully pushed, and then maybe I can get out of the airport here
# [08:11] <fantasai> :[p
# [08:11] <fantasai> \^_^/
# [08:11] <Florian> I don't think there is a git command for that
# [08:11] * fantasai is done for now
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# [10:00] <JonathanC> Still looking for one more W3C member to join us on DataSheets - https://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/
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# [16:37] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG confcall 20151021 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0173.html'
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# [17:56] <glazou> Present+ glazou
# [17:57] <glazou> Present+ dael
# [17:57] <Florian> Present+ Florian
# [17:57] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:57] <jihyerish> Present+ Jihye Hong
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# [17:58] <glazou> Present+ adenilson
# [17:58] <adenilson> Present+ adenilson
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# [17:59] <gregwhitworth> Present+ gregwhitworth
# [17:59] * gregwhitworth I'm getting the "you're entry is incorrect" again, I'll wait until 9AM PST :)
# [17:59] <smfr> present+ smfr
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# [18:00] <glazou> Regrets: plinss
# [18:00] <smfr> gregwhitworth: hopefully it says “your entry”
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# [18:00] <astearns> present+ astearns
# [18:00] * dael gregwhitworth there are a handful of us on the call, so it is letting people in.
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# [18:00] <glazou> Regrets: LeaVerou
# [18:00] <dbaron> Present+ dbaron
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# [18:01] <antonp> Present+ antonp
# [18:01] <hyojin> present+ hyojin
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# [18:01] <gregwhitworth> @smf lol, I haven't had my coffee yet :)
# [18:01] * antonp notes that the direct dial-in number recognized the meeting number this week, unlike in previous weeks (I did nothing different)
# [18:02] <fantasai> present/me asks glazou to add the main dial in number to the announcement template
# [18:02] <tgraham> present+ tgraham
# [18:02] <bkardell_> present+ bkardell
# [18:02] <myles> hello hober
# [18:03] <fantasai> present+ fantasai
# [18:03] <glazou> present+ hober
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# [18:04] <dael> Present+ AH_Miller
# [18:04] * dbaron notes we never worried about the ability for anyone to join Zakim calls
# [18:04] <koji> present+ koji
# [18:04] * antonp agrees that a link to that info (rather than the info itself) would be useful
# [18:04] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG confcall WebEx details https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015AprJun/0206.html : call 20151021 agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0173.html'
# [18:05] * gregwhitworth LET'S DO THIS!!!
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: Let's get started. This is the last call before TPAC
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: First thing as usual, digressions.
# [18:05] <glazou> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2015
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: TPAC agenda items. The list is pretty light as of a few hours ago. I added a few, but it would be good if you could add your requests to that page.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: Do that ASAP so the chairs can have a good sense of how much we have to discuss and some sort of prioritization.
# [18:06] * glazou Florian you're a bit far from microphone
# [18:06] * gregwhitworth CONGRATS!!!
# [18:06] <dael> Florian: The paperwork is in progress, so this isn't technically true, but I'm switch to represent viviostyle. I also have a valid consulting contract with Bloomberg. But I'm no longer an invited expert, I'm viviostyle.
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Anything to add to the agenda? We only have 3 items.
# [18:06] * fantasai looks
# [18:06] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [18:07] <dael> Topic: Polar Orientation Property
# [18:07] <jihyerish> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0177.html
# [18:07] * Florian gregwitworth: thanks
# [18:07] <dael> jihyerish: Hi, I'm from LG Electronics. Here is the mailing about polar orientation
# [18:08] <dael> jihyerish: I prop. the property which could recide the element's degree of rotation in a polar coordinate system. It's named polar orientation and makes the element rotate in that axis. It is center | counter-center| <angle> for values
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# [18:09] <dael> jihyerish: It works when it is positioned with polar distance and polar angle prop. When center is the given value, the element rotates by polar angle value. If the anchor is the cent point of the element, a straight line passing through the anchor point would meet the center point of the containing block.
# [18:09] <dael> jihyerish: Counter-center makes it rotate by the polar angle value +180deg.
# [18:09] <Bert> present+
# [18:09] <fantasai> http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/polar/rotate.html
# [18:09] <hyojin> The demo page of polar-orientation: http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/polar/rotate.html
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# [18:10] <jihyerish> http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/polar/rotate.html
# [18:10] <dael> jihyerish: Also, <angle> is used for polar orientation value type. When the element has an angle value it has constrant rotation transformation by specificed angle. You can see the results of the property by the polar example ^.
# [18:11] <dael> jihyerish: You can see the sample of polar orientation in polyfill. THere are two circular layouts. IN the elft they are without polar orientation. THe right side is impl with polar oritentation. All elements in the circular shape have same polar distance. An element with polar angle >90deg as center value. counter-center is given to polar orientation when the polar angle value is >90 and <270.
# [18:12] <dael> jihyerish: As you can see from the elements positioned at polar angle 90 and 270, they rotate by a constant value of 0deg, no matter which polar angle value.
# [18:12] <dael> jihyerish: This is the explination of polar-orientation. What do you think about this prop? Are there more things to consider?
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: This is, except for center center, is this the same as a rotate property?
# [18:12] <dael> jihyerish: Yes, this property means the element rotates by Z axis
# [18:13] <dbaron> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-transforms-2/#propdef-rotate
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: So rather than have a sep. property that only works when you're polar positioning, i think it makes more sense if we need special keywords like polar-center, we should add those to a rotate property which I think is planned to be added. The angle values behave the same way and we shouldn't have twop rop that do the same.
# [18:14] <dael> Florian: I had the same thought. If we keep it on a sep. property we should remove the explicit angle because that's redundant with rotation. Center and counter-center are not.
# [18:14] <dbaron> What was the intended initial value of polar-orientation?
# [18:14] <bradk> Transform: rotate(auto) ?
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I have a question. Is there anything you can do with polar-orientation that you cannot do with rotation?
# [18:15] <fantasai> transform: rotate(polar-angle)
# [18:15] <astearns> it looks like you can do it all with rotation, you just need to do the math
# [18:15] <fantasai> transform: rotate(counter-polar-angle)
# [18:15] <dael> jihyerish: There is nothing we can do not using rotate, but when you use polar orientation the user can specify the rotation transformation more easily than using rotate value when aligning elements in rounded display, i think.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: It saves you from doing math. If you want to keep the polar angle and orientation in sync. If you have center and counter-center it self-adjusts.
# [18:16] <fantasai> transform: rotate(calc(180deg + polar-angle))
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Yeah.
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: Which brings me to another point. As shown in the example, it doesn't completely adjust. On the right you have a different value for the number on the top, bottom, and 4 and 10. Which means you have to manual keep track of what is where. If you have to do that I dont thinkt he property is meeting the goal. If you can set one thing to polar-orientation I think you've met your goal. bUt if you have to set each element you might as well use rotation.
# [18:17] <astearns> rotate: polar-upgright
# [18:17] <astearns> with less 'g's
# [18:17] * fantasai :)
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: Maybe we're missing a value or two, like and auto that just handles the facing center. If the list of values explodes, maybe it's not practical.
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: It seems there's consensus on the call and IRC that this as a new property isn't agood idea, but a new value for rotation is maybe the best thing.
# [18:18] <dael> smfr: One question is does it effect layout.
# [18:18] <bradk> Upright = no rotation?
# [18:18] <dael> Florian: On the ex everything is rounded. But if you stop rounding and have corners, if you rotate that changes what the polar distance has to be to avoid overflow. If we're doing 100% witht he value that makes it not overflow than...
# [18:19] <dael> dbaron: Isn't polar positioning like abspos where it doesn't effect layout outside?
# [18:19] <dael> jihyerish: Yes.
# [18:19] <dael> Florian: When yous tack to one side the 100% value, like left 0 in abspos, it uts you against he edge. If you rotate that chanes where you put it if you want to avoid overflow. Am I makeing sense?
# [18:19] <dael> jihyerish: Yes.
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: So I think not being in rotate and being a sep property makes sense for that.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: You'd want to have them evenly positioned outwards by the centers because otherwise it looks uneven. YOu want the centers even, not the futhest edge. BUt I'm not sure I buy that.
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: Distribution yes.
# [18:20] <fantasai> s/BUt/so/
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: But I don't know. I'm not sure.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I would say this is a case for using rotate and if we want to add keywords to rotate to make this easier, I don't see a problem. But two properties that control the same thing is alywas a problem. If we want layout effecting transforms that's sep.
# [18:21] <bradk> On the list, there was a better way to avoid overflow, which would make it not an issue here.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: This is seperate. The way this would effect layout is changing how % resolve in polar distrance. THat's not the usual way of talking about layout effecting transforms.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I'll go with the if we need layout effecting transforms, we make them, and not having this minor thing that does layout.
# [18:22] <dael> jihyerish: Then you think the polar orientation is not useful enough to be a new prop?
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: It's not about usefulness, it's about having something solving one specific case and having a general property that solves the same case. We shouldn't have this psecial switch that does the same thing. If we need additional keywords to make calculations easier, we can do that. it's not good to have two prop. control same effect.
# [18:23] <dael> jihyerish: Okay, I got it.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: One other thing I'd like as an issue is maybe we need more keywords. Spec. keywords that auto switch between center and counter-center depending on which half of the circule you're on. I don't know how many varients, but I'd like an issue that says we need some more.
# [18:24] <dael> jihyerish: I'll make that as an issue and think about it.
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this while you're on the call?
# [18:24] <dael> jihyerish: It's done.
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: Thank you very much.
# [18:24] <dael> Topic: Writing modes
# [18:24] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015OctDec/0039.html
# [18:25] <adenilson> ouch!
# [18:25] * dael owwie
# [18:25] * Bert koji turned into a fax machine? :-)
# [18:25] * tantek that was a bit higher than 60Hz
# [18:25] <adenilson> LOL!
# [18:25] * tantek LOL Webex sucking much worse than everyone using POTS
# [18:26] <dael> koji: The mail is from fantasai, but we think all the open issues are resolved and edits are done.
# [18:26] * glazou asks Koji to tell Matt Damon to fix the phone
# [18:26] <dael> koji: fantasai solved the last issue in SVG WG. We want to publish writing modes CR.
# [18:26] * tantek what is the pulsing humming from?
# [18:26] * tantek Houston?
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: Sounds good to me. WE had a bunch of issues, we fixed them.
# [18:27] * glazou tantek I suspect Koji's phone getting incoming text message
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: Small note, you bikeshed icon is red, so you should fix that.
# [18:27] * tantek could someone please record this as an MP3?
# [18:27] <bradk> FTL communication problems. Reconfigure main deflector array!!
# [18:27] <dael> koji: You're right. I sent an e-mail to TabAtkins, but have to follow-up.
# [18:27] * tantek needs to make a techno mix
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: I'm in favor of CR.
# [18:27] <Florian> +1
# [18:27] <Bert> +1 to CR
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: Objections?
# [18:28] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish CR for Writing Modes
# [18:28] <dael> koji: Thank you.
# [18:28] * astearns in favor of techno hum CR
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: Cool.
# [18:28] <dael> Topic: word-break: break-all
# [18:28] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0124.html
# [18:29] <dael> koji: This is about word-break: break-all. This value was org. prop. by MS to allow Korean typographic style.
# [18:29] * glazou just lost one ear
# [18:29] * Joins: antenna (~antenna@public.cloak)
# [18:29] * glazou BWAHAHA hmmm hmmmm hmmm
# [18:29] <dael> koji: fantasai and I thought allowing breaks only between letters works good. Blink included that and feedback from dev is it was widely used in CJK and people what to break between symbols.
# [18:30] <adenilson> glazou: record it, then loop it for 1hour and add something in (like nyan cat) = viral video.
# [18:30] * glazou hurry up tantek, David Gilmour is on it too ;-)
# [18:30] <dael> koji: I tested and FF and webkit breaks anywhere. IE doesn't break before closing parenthesis. I'm in favor of following IE behavior.
# [18:30] * Joins: alex_antennahouse (~45fbb73d@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <dael> Florian: So as was said in the ML, the fact that IE deosn't break before opening and closing parens is handled by the spec. Maybe that we use letter in the spec it doesn't allow breaking in the middle of a run of punctuation, like ***. I think we should allow breaking in the middle if it's not already allowed.
# [18:31] <dael> koji: The difficulty is what you pointed out. Since we don't define line breaking rules exactly, our choice when we wrote it was allowing only between letters can avoid breaking before closing parens.
# [18:31] * gregwhitworth I'm hearing crazy audio
# [18:31] * glazou lost second ear
# [18:32] * smfr phones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
# [18:32] <fantasai> AI, AL, H2, H3, HL, ID
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: We an easily update the spec by instead of saying letters saying characters with unicode line breaking collapse of A I L H2, H3, HL, ID
# [18:32] * glazou gregwhitworth I wonder if that's a noise automatically added to any Text Level 3 discussion :-)
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: The unicode linebreak spec seems to handle a lot of these. The * is handled. I think they went through and put everything under other characters as break between. Other classes would continue to behave as they do currently.
# [18:33] * Bert now can't fantasai anymore either.
# [18:33] <gregwhitworth> @glazou :)
# [18:33] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~45fbb73d@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: [missed]
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: I can't verify that your list is correct, but the intent is right and i trust you on the list.
# [18:34] <dael> koji: WE have two choices. Add more line breaking places or say places you shouldn't break.
# [18:34] <fantasai> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/#Table1
# [18:34] <fantasai> Proposal to switch restriction from "allow breaks between letters" to "allow breaks between characters from Numeric Context / Other Characters"
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: I think shouldn't is handled via line-break: auto. We may want to add a note to that value saying something like restrictions should vary depending on lang. and are important on lang. which doesn't use spaces as spereators. It's allowed by spec, but might not be clear enough.
# [18:35] <fantasai> (roughly, might need to tweak for IS class)
# [18:35] <fantasai> (and RI class)
# [18:35] <dael> Florian: For me it's just a clarification. We have that the UA should determine where it's not allowed. If the UA didn't take into account requirements, that's their fault. We shouldn't define where it's forbidden...it varies by language and even in a single language there's variation. But reminding the UA they need to care is useful.
# [18:36] * bradk hears someone sanding furniture, or perhaps filing nails.
# [18:36] <dbaron> maybe we should have this discussion next week when we have better audio?
# [18:36] * tantek bradk it's likely a feedback amplifications
# [18:36] <tantek> agreed with dbaron
# [18:36] <dael> koji: I'm strongly against...line-break is switching between levels, but it doesn't define basic levels. Second, I don't think it's so controversial, breaking before a closing period. it's not language specific. My understanding of line-break: auto is break as much as possible unless it's really bad.
# [18:36] <tantek> also, debating line-breaking would be assisted by visual examples
# [18:37] <tantek> in-person
# [18:37] * glazou hhmmmm hmmm I'm your father, Luke hmmm hmmm
# [18:37] * tantek serioulsy get me an MP3 of the squeak squeak hmmm hmmm bidip
# [18:37] * glazou doing
# [18:37] <koji> s/I'm strong/I'm not strongly/
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I think what we should do is look at the line breaking classes and tailor them for word break. There's two classes, ones by line-break and ones by word-break. I think the only one in between is the small kana. The one in the spec dealing with just letters is incorrect, but UAX14 does that correctly. I thinkt hat will effectively solve the problem.
# [18:38] <dael> koji: Okay.
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: I think we can give it a shot. I'm still a bit hesitent.
# [18:38] * glazou tantek GOT IT
# [18:38] * tantek hmmm hmmm hummm hummm
# [18:38] <dael> koji: Maybe fantasai and I work on the direction and come up with prop text.
# [18:38] * tantek sounds like electronic parrots
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: Let's do that and see where it takes us.
# [18:39] <dael> koji: I think I'm okay with this.
# [18:39] * tantek glazou just play it at the start of the next telcon
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: If there's nothing else, we exhaused the agenda. Anything else?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: There was, there's a message on redoing the TR stylesheets. I haven't gotten any response from the WG.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Are the chairs against having us answer, or is that something we should do?
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: I'm leaving it to the new chairs. I didn't have a chance to look at it.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: The deadline for the survey was a montha nd a half ago. I need to have the stylesheet done by TPAC for it to do anything, so it's a bit tough that we left it to when I need feedback.
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: From a person prospective, I trust you to do the right thing. Personally I don't think we need to spend conf call or ML time. Is there any objection or is anyone willing to review the stylesheet so we can come up with a WG decision?
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I trust fantasai
# [18:41] <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SpecProd/Restyle/Survey
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: I'll do the best I can, but if you can tell me things that need to be fixed that's also helpful.
# [18:42] <Bert> q+
# [18:42] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:42] <dael> glazou: No one objects. Let's record that it's a go ahead to fantasai and we'll ping you later if there's something. Is that okay for you fantasai?
# [18:42] * gregwhitworth For some reason this is the first I heard about this :/
# [18:42] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) ("dholbert")
# [18:42] * astearns pretty sure no one here has any opinions on styling
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: I'd like the WG to answer the questions about what they do and don't like on the TR stylesheets. I'm sure people have opinions and I can't account for them.
# [18:43] <fantasai> gregwhitworth, it was sent to the chairs list
# [18:43] <dael> Bert: Question for fantasai. If I remember correctly the survey, the things you proposed are things we already do in our specs.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. I do have more leyway since I'm doing it for the entire W3C. If there's thigns we don't do because it's too different from W3C, we have the oportunity to change it.
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: What are things we can do with CSS without changing the markup that we'd want W3C wide.
# [18:44] <gregwhitworth> I personally love the CSSWG specs, the centering of the text, a lot of white space, good contrast and spacing
# [18:44] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [18:44] * glazou tantek I "recorded" the sound on webex but cannot find a way to download the file !!!
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: I will be merging in the CSSWG stylesheet, but since I'm changing the entre stylesheet sitewide, things that would make us inconsistant are now on the table.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: I don't have a objection or desire for changing things beyond what we do. I don't have a request for a change beyond what the WG is using. I'll review something if you want.
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: It's fine if the WG has 0 input, but it would have been nice to know that a while ago. If there's nothing to be said that's fine with me.
# [18:46] * Florian sound quality is too bad, I cannot understand what you're saying fantasai
# [18:46] * tantek glazou webex is a silo!
# [18:46] * fantasai dael got it, mostly
# [18:46] * tantek fantasai - that was a weird clip echo filter
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: If no one has any opinions on styling, we can say CSSWG has no feedbakc.
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: Our feedback is we prefer what we use over what's on TR and we support moves in that direction. Feedback beyond that we don't have.
# [18:47] <fantasai> sgtm
# [18:47] <gregwhitworth> I agree
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: Does my last sentence on IRC sound good as a WG position, or is it just me?
# [18:47] <koji> agree
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: I tend to agree with that.
# [18:48] <Bert> (I don't want the maximum line length, you know that already; but otherwise fine.)
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: I guess we won't push furhter on that since we can't hear fantasai. Let's do that and move one.
# [18:48] <fantasai> Yeah, that's a controversial one. I've got a handful of people who don't want it and a bunch who do
# [18:48] <tantek> can you please post the file publicly to www-archive?
# [18:48] <fantasai> glazou, status of css-variables?
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: There's still 12 minutes left
# [18:48] * Florian fantasai: apologies for not giving that feedback a couple months ago
# [18:49] <fantasai> and will-change?
# [18:49] <tantek> so we can cite this as "fun with webex"
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: Status of css-variables and will-change.
# [18:49] <fantasai> Also, http://www.w3.org/TR/css-cascade-4/ to CR
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: There was an impl in Webkit a few days ago, but I guess this was part of a large topic. That is....for a lot of our documents the TR doc is old than 6 months or the ED is older. We have a lot of doc that need to republish or give a clearer status.
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: I'm concerned with these two.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: Even if you're concerned with these specs only, it's a wider issue. A lot of doc are ready for a new publication and we need to discuss what to do with all of them.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: I'm guessing you want publication?
# [18:51] * astearns pub-pipeline blame
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: I don't. I want to know who is holding the ball. Why is it not published as CR because it has been many many months. We have outstanding resolutions to publish these. They were suppsed to transition and they're not there.
# [18:51] <tantek> can we document how long it is taking from resolution to publish CR to actual publication as CR?
# [18:51] <tantek> I would like to report this information to the AB
# [18:51] <dael> Bert: It must be chrisL or me. I don't remember which.
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Or would it be TabAtkins?
# [18:51] <tantek> seems like there are too many humans in the loop
# [18:51] <fantasai> css-variables is approaching 1 year
# [18:51] <tantek> and I want to cut this process down
# [18:52] <fantasai> and the problem there is people forgetting they need to do stuff
# [18:52] <tantek> month+ between resolution CR -> TR CR is unacceptable
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: This is something we'll solve F2F at TPAC. There's a moritorium anyway, so what we decide won't get the docuements publishe din the next few days.
# [18:52] <tantek> and an embarrassment to W3C
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: There's nothing more we can do now.
# [18:52] <tantek> let me help fix this
# [18:52] <tantek> help me help you
# [18:52] <tantek> specifically the resolution -> TR time gap
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: I agree tantek, but stuff happens from time to time. Some documents went under the radar for 8-10 years. It's bad for everyone.
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: Anything else for today?
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: Cascade 4 to CR? There were no comments.
# [18:53] <tantek> under the radar is a different problem
# [18:53] <tantek> +1
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Okay. Comments from people? What do you think?
# [18:53] <astearns> +1
# [18:53] <dael> tantek: If there's no outstanding issues, make it CR.
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Objections?
# [18:53] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish Cascade 4 as CR
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I agree
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: Nothing else?
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: I wish you all a safe trip to Japan.
# [18:54] <tantek> see you all Tuesday morning
# [18:54] <tantek> I will be missing the first day (Monday)
# [18:54] <fantasai> tantek, they were held up on edits from Tab at some point, and then I don't know whether theyre held up on him now or W3C staff
# [18:54] <gregwhitworth> THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP glazou and plinss
# [18:54] * Bert to glazou: I can't access the recording either. It's Chris's WebEx conf...
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: This is my last call so you won't hear me too often. Let's meet on Monday and for those going to attend the Japanese Industry on Sunday, I'll see you there. We're missing a few details on that. I got an e-mail on that since there's no sign of life from the organizer. I'll try and reach them before noon Sunday it will mean the meetup is cancelled or there's no info.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: I'm meeting with organizers tomorrow, so I don't think this will be cancelled. I'll push for more details.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: They need to send a message to this WG, the chairs, and Marie-Clair (sp?) because she wants to share the info and cannot.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Safe trip everyone and I'll see you on Monday.
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# [18:56] <Florian> email for marie-claire?
# [18:56] <Florian> glazou: ^
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# [18:56] <glazou> Florian: mcf@w3.org
# [18:56] <Florian> thanks
# [18:56] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> No, I got all my edits in, and pinged Chris about them.
# [18:57] <fantasai> Marie-Claire
# [18:57] <fantasai> Bert, can you help Chris with the transition? (see above)
# [18:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: will-change and variables both?
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah
# [18:58] <Bert> Yes. I'll see whcih documents are in the queue and check with Chris.
# [18:58] <fantasai> Thanks, Bert.
# [18:58] <fantasai> I suspect it's just fallen off his radar
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# [19:01] <fantasai> tantek, I think the problem isn't the transition requirements so much as stuff getting passed back and forth among so many people and then it gets lost whose got the next action item
# [19:02] <fantasai> in this WG, it invariably gets lost
# [19:02] <tantek> fantasai - hence "too many humans in the loop" as stated during the telcon
# [19:02] * fantasai pings TabAtkins
# [19:03] <tantek> basically the newer model is a good improvement. the editor should be able to just throw a switch.
# [19:03] <tantek> and the assumption should be a) they are trusted and won't abuse that power, and b) if they do or an accident occurs, WG chair/staff can revert
# [19:04] <fantasai> for CR?
# [19:04] <tantek> better to have easy repair/undo, than so much process up front
# [19:04] <tantek> yup
# [19:04] <tantek> for any transition
# [19:04] <fantasai> I think part of the process is having someone double-check they hit all the requirements for the transition
# [19:04] <tantek> all this ceremony is really unnecessary if you have good undo mechanisms in place
# [19:04] <fantasai> which in my experience has caught errors pretty reliably
# [19:04] <fantasai> in some cases
# [19:04] <tantek> so let's get rid of most of those requirements which seem mostly arbitrary anyway
# [19:04] <fantasai> just by forcing people to double-review their stuff
# [19:05] <fantasai> so, I think that's fine, if we can reduce the number of people who have to be involved
# [19:05] <fantasai> and make sure the editor has control over all steps
# [19:05] <fantasai> Like, if there needs to be a form filled out, handing it off to the staff contact to do in the darkroom is one place where it gets lost
# [19:05] <fantasai> then the staff contact has to schedule a call, and often forgets
# [19:05] <fantasai> that's another place
# [19:06] <fantasai> basically, anytime stuff gets handed off to a staff contact to do n the dark
# [19:06] <fantasai> it's a problem
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# [21:28] <adenilson> anyone with commit rights could have a look on:
# [21:28] <adenilson> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/63
# [21:28] <adenilson> ?
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 22 00:00:00 2015

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