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# Session Start: Tue Oct 27 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:51] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-css-irc
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# [00:51] <astearns> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [00:51] <RRSAgent> ok, astearns; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# [01:03] <Rossen> Zakim, remind us at 6am to tell you to go home
# [01:03] <Zakim> You can go home any time you like, Rossen
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# [01:08] <dino> ScribeNick: dino
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# [01:09] <dino> Topic: Polar coordinates/issues and Round Display
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# [01:09] <dino> hyojin: Two issues. First polar issues.
# [01:10] <dino> hyojin: proposed polar-origin property
# [01:10] <dino> hyojin: anchor point in CSS is typically top left, where as in polar is it center/center
# [01:11] <dino> hyojin: e.g. when you scale an element, it should resize from the center in all directions.
# [01:11] <dino> Rossen: is there a document we can look at?
# [01:11] <dino> hyojin: no. just a proposal.
# [01:12] <jihye> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-round-display-1/
# [01:12] <dino> Florian: we already have the existing transform-origin properties. if we can re-use that property rather than create a new one, it would be better.
# [01:12] * skk Do I need to open the document above?
# [01:13] * bkardell_ wonders can we open webex?
# [01:13] <dino> SimonSapin: is it worth having separate properties for transform and polar origins?
# [01:13] <zcorpan> s/SimonSapin/zcorpan/
# [01:13] <Sangjo> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zbdvmix6505fquo/AADaG2-U42PZWYOw0Btad7t0a?dl=0
# [01:13] <dino> oops!
# [01:13] * zcorpan no prob duno :-)
# [01:14] <dino> hyojin: I have a demo that I can maybe show.
# [01:14] * dino zcorpan lol
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# [01:15] <zcorpan> s/is it worth having separate properties for transform and polar origins/is there a use case for using different origins for transform and polar if you're using both at the same time?/
# [01:15] <fantasai> Florian^: Having a new polar-origin property that affects both polar-origin and transform-origin seems weird. Reusing transform-origin for both would be better. fantasai: Or keeping them completely separate. Florian: yes/
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# [01:16] <dino> dino: the origin is center in transform origin
# [01:16] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [01:16] <fantasai> Rossen: So, going back to the question & proposal -- feedback from the room?
# [01:16] <fantasai> Rossen: wrt having separate origin for polar coordinates and transform-origin
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# [01:17] <fantasai> rakow: transform-origin only applies to transformable elements, but seems like polar-origin might also apply to inlines?
# [01:17] <fantasai> fantasai: positioned elements become blockified
# [01:17] <fantasai> dbaron: that would be easy to fix in any case
# [01:18] <fantasai> dbaron: So, is polar-origin that you want something that controls the positioning of the elements relative to the thing they're positioned in?
# [01:18] <fantasai> dbaron: We had discussions about rotation of the polar-positioned elements, but this is about positioning of polar elements rather than rotation?
# [01:18] <fantasai> ?: Just positioning elements
# [01:18] <fantasai> ?: you could use ...
# [01:18] <fantasai> ?: when we want to animate, shoudl refer to the transform origin
# [01:18] <fantasai> ?: I shoudl think more about this topic, it's very brief idea for now
# [01:18] <zcorpan> s/?/hyojin/
# [01:19] * fantasai thanks
# [01:19] <fantasai> dbaron: One other question is, the idea is you use the polar-origin property of the parent when you're positionng the polar items, or using their own polar origin property, relative to size of the parent
# [01:19] <fantasai> ?
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# [01:19] <fantasai> hyojin: Relative to containing blocks... polar-origin would be if I usually center center, if some author could put a point in coordinate
# [01:20] <fantasai> zcorpan requests the whiteboard to come into play
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# [01:20] <fantasai> dbaron: polar-anchor is position in child, and polar-origin is position in the parent?
# [01:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: yes, both defaulting to appropriate center
# [01:21] <fantasai> hyojin draws diagrams:
# [01:21] <fantasai> polar-origin diagram shows circle with dot in the middle, square along outside edge
# [01:21] <fantasai> polar-anchor shows dot inside the square [positoined element]
# [01:21] <fantasai> dbaron: That answers my first qustion
# [01:22] <fantasai> dbaron: Second question is, if you have two elements here
# [01:22] <fantasai> dbaron: containing block element, and positioned element
# [01:22] <fantasai> dbaron: when you're positioning the child, are you referencing the 'polar-origin' value of the child or of the containing block?
# [01:22] <fantasai> hyojin: I think the containing block
# [01:23] <fantasai> dbaron: Might be reasons to consider other things
# [01:23] <fantasai> Florian: Are there use cases for non-centered coords?
# [01:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Totally. E.g. positioning around an arc
# [01:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: that surrounds one corner of the box
# [01:23] <fantasai> Florian: But then where do you position it?
# [01:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: then you overflow
# [01:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Percentage values of polar distance are an interesting case
# [01:24] <fantasai> dbaron: They're relative from center to edge of containing block
# [01:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: you'd clamp it to zero, then
# [01:24] <fantasai> dbaron: polar-distance needs to be clearer about what happens when the origin is not the center
# [01:24] <fantasai> ACTION hyojin: Clarify polar-distance percentages when origin is not the center
# [01:24] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [01:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [01:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - Clarify polar-distance percentages when origin is not the center [on Hyojin Song - due 2015-11-03].
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# [01:25] <fantasai> Florian: We discussed, and maybe this is the next topic, having a flag value to polar distance where 100% puts anchor at the edge vs. 100% puts the element at the edge without overflow
# [01:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Wasn't that what the auto value of polar anchor was for?
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# [01:26] <fantasai> Florian: It would be somewhat unintuitive in this case if your origin is at the corner, since you would position yourself neatively...
# [01:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yes, totally logical
# [01:27] <fantasai> Rossen: First question is, should this be separate from tranform-origin
# [01:27] <fantasai> fantasai: I think so, because transform-origin would be used for rollover effects and other animations of the item in its positioned place
# [01:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: agree with fantasai
# [01:27] <hyojin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0234.html
# [01:28] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add polar-origin, independent property from transform-origin, issue open on whether it is referenced off the item or the containing block
# [01:28] <fantasai> hyojin: Next is polar-anchor
# [01:29] <fantasai> hyojin: Current proposal is to prevent overflow on the display with 'auto', but alternative is modifying polar-distance with special value
# [01:29] <fantasai> hyojin: I'm wondering whether polar-anchor is still necesary
# [01:29] <fantasai> hyojin: Two issues open here.
# [01:29] <Florian> "polar-distance: 100%" vs "polar-distance: 100% no-overflow"
# [01:30] <fantasai> dbaron: polar-anchor still seems likely to be useful, even just to set two anchor points
# [01:30] <fantasai> Florian, I'd suggest s/no-overflow/contain/ :)
# [01:31] <hyojin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0087.html
# [01:31] <fantasai> astearns: That seems reasonable, but I'd like a stronger use case than preventing overflow here
# [01:31] <fantasai> Florian explains how the auto value works on polar-anchor -- it automatically chooses the anchor based on the polar angle
# [01:32] <fantasai> Florian: The problem with this is that it can shift you in weird ways [florian pls clarify]
# [01:32] <fantasai> Florian: The no-overflow keyword does not have this problem
# [01:32] <fantasai> Florian: This does not answer the question of whether polar-angle without 'auto' is also useful
# [01:32] <fantasai> hyojin: Polar origin is in the containing block
# [01:32] <fantasai> hyojin: polar-anchor is in the target element
# [01:33] <fantasai> hyojin: I think there should be two points, define each
# [01:33] <fantasai> Florian: The model makes sense to me. The argument from Alan is whether this is needed
# [01:33] <fantasai> Rossen: You will always have two points.
# [01:33] <fantasai> Rossen: The question is whether you can change on or the other from the default that we choose
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# [01:35] <fantasai> fantasai: I can think of mayb the thing you're positioning is a box with contents that are not even, e.g. an icon and a label. You want to position the center of the icon, not including the label
# [01:35] <fantasai> dbaron draws a case on the board: a circle with a long rectangle just above the center, and a small box just under the center
# [01:36] <fantasai> dbaron: if you don't know the sizes of these items, you want to positoin them so that they don't ovelap, need to choose the bottom point on the top itme and the top point on the bottom point. Center won't work
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# [01:36] <fantasai> Florian: We seem to be agreeing that 'auto' is not needed on polar-anchor, and a no-overlfow value on polar-distance would be better.
# [01:36] <fantasai> Florian: We agree on what it does, but how it works is tricky
# [01:37] <astearns> I'm convinced by the two use-cases above that setting polar-anchor could be useful
# [01:37] <fantasai> Florian: In particular, if we only want to make it work with rounded corners, but if we want to take into account shape-outside on the positioned element and shape-inside on the contianing block, this gets tricky
# [01:37] <fantasai> Florian: human can do it, but algorithm much harder
# [01:37] * fantasai thanks astearns
# [01:37] <fantasai> Florian: if your contianing block is a star...
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# [01:38] <fantasai> Florian: Or arbitrary shapes, how do you deal with that? Do we even try?
# [01:38] <fantasai> Florian: wrt watch face, rounded but neither circular nor elliptical, it's pretty common
# [01:38] <fantasai> Florian: Traditional watch design has such curves
# [01:38] <fantasai> Florian: We probably wnat no-overflow property should work with these as well
# [01:38] <fantasai> Florian: Do we need to go further and work with non-convex shapes?
# [01:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you design a non-convex screen and expect it to do anything useful?
# [01:39] <fantasai> Bert: I want to design a jigsaw puzzle! :D
# [01:39] * astearns the internet of jigsaw-puzzle pieces
# [01:39] <fantasai> Florian: Need to try to write out definition and see
# [01:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not convinced we need to worry about this.
# [01:39] <fantasai> fantasai: I would change name of 'no-overflow' to 'contain'
# [01:39] <fantasai> Florian: Sure
# [01:40] <fantasai> Rossen: Okay?
# [01:40] <fantasai> hyojin: We will gather use cases for polar-anchor
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# [01:40] <fantasai> hyojin: What is the best option of defining polar-distance's second value?
# [01:41] <fantasai> hyojin: Previous ida as polar-center or outer or inner?
# [01:41] <fantasai> fantasai: I would call it 'contain', like radial gradients
# [01:41] <fantasai> Florian: polar-distance: <distance>; or polar-distance: <distance> contain;
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# [01:42] <fantasai> ACTION hyojin: work on polar-distance: contain; keyword proposal
# [01:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [01:42] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [01:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-732 - Work on polar-distance: contain; keyword proposal [on Hyojin Song - due 2015-11-03].
# [01:42] <fantasai> hyojin: polar-orientation
# [01:42] <jihye> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-images-20110908/#radial-gradients
# [01:42] <fantasai> hyojin: polar-orientation is to distinguish between center and counter-center
# [01:42] <fantasai> hyojin: Proposal was to replace with rotate/transform
# [01:43] <fantasai> hyojin: But useful to have center and counter-center
# [01:43] <fantasai> Florian: I think the behavior we want, to turn and rotate positioned elements as a function of its polar angle, that makes sense
# [01:43] <fantasai> Florian: But we raised two issues on the last tiem we talked about this, one is does it need to be a special property or is this a special keyword on rotate()?
# [01:43] <hyojin> polar-orientation: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0199.html
# [01:44] <fantasai> Florian: Or maybe it should be separate because polar-origin
# [01:44] <jihye> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0177.html
# [01:44] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think it should be separate. You can have separate keywords if you want to, but there's no reason to have a separate property that I can tell at the moment.
# [01:45] <fantasai> fantasai: For example, we could have transform: rotate(polar-center);
# [01:45] <fantasai> fantasai: And if you want the same thing for transforms (because I don't think this is important), then you can have transform: rotate(transform-center);
# [01:45] <fantasai> s/transforms/transforms later/
# [01:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Is there any reason why this wouldn't work?
# [01:46] <fantasai> Florian: If you do transform: rotate(polar-center); it rotates around which origin?
# [01:46] <fantasai> Florian: What if the polar-anchor and transform-origin are not the same?
# [01:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Is that what you really want? I'm not convinced.
# [01:47] <fantasai> Florian: Second thing we raised during telecon is based on the example
# [01:47] <fantasai> Florian: the example didn't use polar-center all around the watch face. On the bottom half it used counter-center, and center on the top half
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# [01:48] <hyojin> polar orientation sample app: http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/polar/rotate.html
# [01:48] <fantasai> Florian: Having to choose between these seems a little bit problematic, since hte goal of these values is to be automatic
# [01:48] <fantasai> Florian: If you need to adjust based on the angle anyway, might as well just do the math.
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# [01:48] <fantasai> fantasai: So you're suggesting there should be a third auto-center value
# [01:48] <fantasai> Florian: I think we should rethink the set of values
# [01:49] <fantasai> Florian: Do you ever wnat counter-center if you're positioned at the top?
# [01:49] * fantasai thinks Florian is mostly repeating himself atm and has stopped minuting
# [01:50] <fantasai> Florian: Lets have values for the use cases.
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: The motion-path property has the same three values
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: It has center, called auto.
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: Also has reverse,
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: and also has angle, which you can use for 0deg
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: Corresponds exactly to the polar-orientation property, though different naming
# [01:51] <fantasai> Bert: Seem to need these three values
# [01:51] <astearns> https://drafts.fxtf.org/motion-1/#motion-rotation
# [01:51] <fantasai> fantasai: We should keep the names consistent...
# [01:52] <fantasai> fantasai: Though I'm not sure in which direction :)
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# [01:52] <fantasai> Rossen: So what's next?
# [01:52] <fantasai> Florian: would like to hear from rest of WG what they think of the auto-center keyword idea
# [01:52] <Sangjo> http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/facebook/circle.html
# [01:53] * birtles notes that naming is based on SVG which uses auto, auto-reverse, or <number>: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#RotateAttribute
# [01:54] <fantasai> Florian: If we look at use cases and see the values, I'm pretty sure these two will be part of it. If anything else is needed, could also add later
# [01:55] <fantasai> hyojin projects example
# [01:55] <fantasai> Bert: If you used no-overflow, it would not work nicely like this
# [01:55] <fantasai> Florian: I'm okay with deferring a request for new values until later
# [01:55] <fantasai> Rossen: Yours sounds like a superset, so can always add more
# [01:58] <hyojin> CSS Round Display Demo: http://anawhj.github.io/jRound/demo/
# [01:58] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop polar-orientation, add values corresponding to the two keyword values as additions to rotation() function. Bikeshed names on ML; nice to align with SVG, but also need to not be too vague.
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# [01:58] <fantasai> hyojin: Next topic is device-radius
# [01:58] <hyojin> device-radius regarding percentages issue: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0193.html
# [01:59] <fantasai> hyojin: Florian and Tab were discussing this topic, it was a little bit difficult
# [01:59] * glazou would like to congratulate LG for their very effective and process-respectful participation into the CSS WG ; sincerely.
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# [01:59] <fantasai> Florian: I didn't explain well, and you didn't understand what I meant wrt inequalities...
# [01:59] * fantasai agrees with that
# [01:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I will object to anything where lengths and percentages are not comparable
# [02:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: and to anything where inequalities are not defined among these
# [02:00] <fantasai> Florian: In my proposal, length and percentage are comparable per axis
# [02:00] <fantasai> Florian: Wrt inequalities, you're not necessarily in an ordered spaced. A zigzag corner is not more, less, or equally rounded to a corner
# [02:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Which is why I would object to it. Must be ordered. Must define inequality
# [02:01] <fantasai> Florian: Some things don't match inequality or non-inequality is okay
# [02:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No it's not
# [02:02] <fantasai> Florian draws a circle within a square
# [02:02] * glazou Florian trying to solve circle's quadrature?-)
# [02:02] <fantasai> Florian: I don't think anyone disagrees that this matches device-radius: 100px and also device-radius: 50%
# [02:02] <fantasai> (square is 200px wide)
# [02:03] <fantasai> Florian: What if it's rectangular?
# [02:03] <fantasai> Florian: Tab says you must evaluate always against a single axis, either width or height.
# [02:04] <fantasai> Florian: But in this example (200px x 400px rectangle, portrait)
# [02:04] <fantasai> Florian: I think this should not match device-radius: 200px or device-radius: 400px, becaus these would match a circle, and this is not a circle.
# [02:04] <fantasai> Florian: but it would match device-radius: 50%;
# [02:04] <fantasai> s/200px or device-radius: 400px/100px or device-radius: 200px/
# [02:05] <fantasai> Florian: So no non-circlular ellips would ever match a length.
# [02:05] <fantasai> Florian: but you can still do calc math meaningfully
# [02:06] <fantasai> Florian adjusts the curve so that there's a 10px length of straight edge on each side (less than 50% curve)
# [02:06] <fantasai> Florian: This shape would match device-radius: calc(50%-10px)
# [02:06] <fantasai> Florian: Mixing percentage and length works. Separately per axis, but they work
# [02:06] <fantasai> s/10px/5px/
# [02:07] <fantasai> ish
# [02:07] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dj6ao4rurp5hdq/round-display-oval.jpg?dl=0
# [02:08] <fantasai> dbaron: So device-radius is rounding of the entire screen, regardless of its size
# [02:08] <fantasai> Florian: yes
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# [02:08] <fantasai> dbaron: Sounds more like device-corner-radius.
# [02:08] <glazou> +1 to what dbaron said
# [02:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: yes
# [02:08] <fantasai> Florian: If you have one corner 10px and another corner 50px, then it wouldn't match device-radius: 10px anyway
# [02:09] * Quits: yeonsoo (~yeonsoo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:09] <fantasai> Florian: Any screen shape.
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# [02:09] <fantasai> Florian draws weird corners
# [02:09] <fantasai> Florian: Any screen shape that does not cross this line (designated by device-radius) matches max-device-radius: 50%
# [02:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't want to do this
# [02:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It breaks inequality algebra
# [02:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: and there isn't a use case
# [02:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we will need to support either round or beveled corners
# [02:10] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3pkq6syhvhzr9g/round-display-oval-weird-corners.jpg?dl=0
# [02:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Figuring out rounded corner ish thing it would be in an ideal world
# [02:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Just do an equality based on that that does normal math
# [02:11] * astearns in general I'm against media queries that will take three months of engineering to evaluate
# [02:11] <fantasai> Florian: I don't expect us to handle weird shapes, but the way you're saying this works then it's very confusing
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# [02:11] <fantasai> Florian: If you have one corner that's rounded, then it doesn't match 10px and doesn't match 0px
# [02:12] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the case we'll run into those, but might run into non-elliptical rounded screens
# [02:12] <fantasai> Florian: egg shape is reasonable
# [02:12] <fantasai> Florian: leaf-shaped one is reasonable (top right and bottom left corners rounded, other two sharp)
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# [02:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: leaf-shaped one is imposible to design for anyway
# [02:13] <fantasai> Florian: What query would match that?
# [02:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: device-radius: 100%
# [02:14] <fantasai> Rossen: What are we changing based on this query anyway?
# [02:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: basically, it's how much do we avoid corners.
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# [02:14] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkyix2nx0on1uqp/round-display-variation.jpg?dl=0
# [02:15] * dauwhe CSS can be defined only in the tangent space of a differentiable manifold
# [02:15] <fantasai> Rossen: Can we just do three keywords?
# [02:15] <fantasai> fantasai: No, I don't think so, because you wnat to know how much corner you have , it's a scale, so shoudl be a number
# [02:15] <fantasai> different designs will have different thresholds they carea bout
# [02:15] * skk In Japan, there were Tamagocchi (http://www.bandai.co.jp/catalog/item/4543112230416000.html), which shape is like an egg. Due to the technical reason, the display is rectangle. But, if egg style existed at that time, that might be used I think.
# [02:16] <fantasai> fantasai: I really don't think keywords will cut it. It should be a number.
# [02:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Can be a conservative number, so that you get the answer that represents the largest space that's definitely on the screen.
# [02:17] <fantasai> Florian: There are two issues here -- one is curves that are not quite elliptical
# [02:17] <fantasai> Florian: another is if different corners are different
# [02:17] * MaRakow really wants a Tamogatchi web app now
# [02:17] <fantasai> Florian: Example --
# [02:17] <fantasai> Florian: If corners are slightly rounded, I might be okay in my design. But as it gets bigger, might get to a point where I need to re-evaluate my design.
# [02:18] * dauwhe skk: best use case we've seen today :)
# [02:18] <fantasai> Florian: You can evaluate a perfect ellipse, you can use that as a judge: if my design fits in that ellipse, I'm okay.
# [02:18] * nulltask Free-form display: http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/7/7511317/sharp-free-form-display-nintendo-ces-2015
# [02:18] <fantasai> Florian: If it doesn't, then I need to change my design
# [02:19] <fantasai> Florian: For differnet-shaped corners,well maybe we need four media queries. But the single one should give the most conservative answer.
# [02:19] <fantasai> Florian: That's how I would use my media query, as I explained it
# [02:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There's a point at which we'll need to just return a path via JS
# [02:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: e.g. luminosity, we didn't expose lumens.
# [02:20] <Rossen> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/131987363392
# [02:22] <fantasai> fantasai: That's totally different. the threshold you care about depends a *lot* on the design, whereas for lumens you only need a few thresholds to choose high-contrast or nighttime theme
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# [02:24] <fantasai> glazou: I think in the CSSWG we have tried many times to restrict ourselves to something too simple, and then later we find we need to handle the more complicated cases. let's not reject anything as totally forever out-of-scope
# [02:24] <dino> http://giphy.com/gifs/stephen-colbert-late-night-comedy-central-LFlT04CTtrwc
# [02:24] <fantasai> Tab argues that three keywords for square, round, and kinda round is sufficient for all uses
# [02:24] <fantasai> Florian argues that his proposal is perfectly simple for authors to use
# [02:24] <fantasai> both of them argue back and forth.
# [02:24] <glazou> I also think we should not reject, and do this as simple in L1 and expandable to a future L2
# [02:24] <fantasai> Tab gets upset that his points aren't minuted
# [02:24] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: All of this is too complicated. Very unlikely that an author can reasonably work with "I need to do something if the screen is more than 5% rounded", esp since shapes can't *accurately* be boiled down to an ellipse anyway.
# [02:25] * dauwhe maybe simpler to write media queries that only depend on the serial number of the screen or device
# [02:25] <MaRakow> q+
# [02:25] * Zakim sees MaRakow on the speaker queue
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# [02:25] * fantasai no, that's terrible dauwhe. Absolutely terrible
# [02:25] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We have 3 semantic layout categories, I think: square (normal), round (use polar), and rounded-rect (avoid the corners).
# [02:25] <SimonSapin> q+
# [02:25] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [02:25] <jchiba> * Free-form display (2): http://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/news/articles/1406/18/l_yuo_sharp.jpg
# [02:25] <shane> q+
# [02:25] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [02:26] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: And we can expose the full shape via a JS API so you can do smart/complicated things if you care that much (which is reasonable).
# [02:26] * hyojin Thanks a lot, Fantasai as the scribe
# [02:26] * dino agrees with hyojin... thanks fantasai
# [02:26] <fantasai> zcorpan: What I wanted to say, a way to get a number is to use the radius of the biggest corner.
# [02:26] <fantasai> zcorpan: An if it's oval shaped, you use the line that goes from the center to the edge
# [02:27] <fantasai> Rossen: So this is stil lin favor of numbers, not keywords
# [02:27] <fantasai> zcorpan: Yes, using a number
# [02:27] <fantasai> Florian: Question about this. I fyou say biggest corner, don't you want to switch biggest vs. smallest depending on whether you're checking greater-than or lesser-than?
# [02:27] * glazou agrees with Florian
# [02:28] <fantasai> zcorpan: The point of this media query is being able to tell how close to the corner you can put stuff
# [02:28] <fantasai> zcorpan: Whether you use smaller than or greater than, I don't see why you would want to smallest corner.
# [02:28] <fantasai> zcorpan: If you use the smallest corner, then you will put stuff that is hidden in the bigger corner. You should always use the biggest corner.
# [02:28] <fantasai> Rossen: It might not be at the edge
# [02:29] <fantasai> zcorpan: It will still be visible.
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# [02:29] <fantasai> zcorpan: If you want more accuracy then us the JS API
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# [02:30] <fantasai> fantasai: It's important imo that greater-than and less-than operate o nthe same numbers, because authors should be able to say @media (device-radius > A) { ... } and @media (device-radius < A) {... } and catch all cases.
# [02:30] <fantasai> Florian: I disagree with this.
# [02:31] <dbaron> s/disagree/partly disagree/
# [02:31] <fantasai> Florian: I agree that they should work on the same thing, but I think there are also screen shapes that will be niether less nor equal nor greater than this.
# [02:31] <dbaron> I think MQ4 does make Florian's concept more practical than it was in MQ3 syntax, but it would still be a common author pitfall.
# [02:31] <fantasai> Florian: Star-shaped screen [...]
# [02:32] <dbaron> I wonder if it would be worth trying to use the time more effectively to understand each other even at the cost of not having every sentence minuted?
# [02:32] <fantasai> zcorpan: For a corner that is not a circle or an ellipse, you pretend that it is a circle or ellipse, and you use the distance from the center to the edge.
# [02:32] <astearns> q+
# [02:32] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane, astearns on the speaker queue
# [02:32] <fantasai> Florian: If a rounded circularly 30px corner would do this ...?
# [02:32] <fantasai> Florian: Then any shape that starts hereand ends at the same point would match?
# [02:32] <fantasai> zcorpan: No.
# [02:33] <fantasai> zcorpan: What shape are you interested in?
# [02:33] <fantasai> zcorpan takes the smallest distance.
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# [02:33] <fantasai> zcorpan: Nothing will be hidden, that's fine.
# [02:34] <fantasai> Florian draws an inverse curve
# [02:34] <fantasai> zcorpan: I suppose you use an ellipse or a circle that fits inside.
# [02:34] <fantasai> zcorpan: So if you wnat a sar shape, or whatever
# [02:34] <fantasai> zcorpan: you use the circle that fits inside
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# [02:34] <fantasai> Florian: I believe your definition and mine are identical
# [02:35] <fantasai> Florian: You compare the the shape of the screen, find the largest ellipse that would fit within it, and use that.
# [02:35] <fantasai> Florian: ...
# [02:36] <astearns> q-
# [02:36] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [02:36] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's a reasonable model for comparison, but the information you've given the author in th estar case
# [02:36] <fantasai> fantasai: is that you have a 200px wide screen with a 25px rounded corners, not a 25px radius circle
# [02:37] <fantasai> Florian: This definition makes sense for [...]
# [02:37] <fantasai> Florian: ...
# [02:37] <fantasai> Florian: The arbitrary shapes bit isn't the point, it's just what falls out.
# [02:37] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gnt82gfn3mq5vd2/round-display-variation-radius.jpg?dl=0
# [02:38] <fantasai> Rossen takes a point of order.
# [02:38] <zcorpan> q?
# [02:38] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
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# [02:39] <fantasai> <br end=10:59>
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# [03:10] <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
# [03:11] <dauwhe> Topic: fragmentation
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# [03:11] <dauwhe> Topic: Round display media queries
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# [03:11] <dauwhe> Rossen: going back to the discussion
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# [03:12] <dauwhe> SimonSapin: (shows complex shape on screen)
# [03:12] <dauwhe> ... content is designed for this device
# [03:12] <fantasai> SimonSapin: In this nintendo case, there's a lot of content that is optimized for this device.
# [03:12] <dauwhe> ... does this device has brother that shows arbitrary content
# [03:12] * fantasai forgot not minuting >_<
# [03:12] <dauwhe> Florian: it's a nintendo device, these things have brothers
# [03:13] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dce7ho80zrqh5ur/round-display-variation-added-in-break.jpg?dl=0
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# [03:13] <dauwhe> glazou: everything is provided by third parties,
# [03:13] <dauwhe> SimonSapin: does 3rd party software expected to show content on parts of the screen
# [03:13] <dauwhe> Rossen: is the q should we handle this type of display?
# [03:14] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [03:14] <glazou> usually 3rd party providers don't control the device characteristics
# [03:14] <dauwhe> SimonSapin: how much are random websites expected to adapt to arbitrary screeens
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# [03:14] <dauwhe> Rossen: as much as authors care
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# [03:14] <dauwhe> plinns: this is a job for shapes and exclusions
# [03:15] <dauwhe> s/plinns/plinss
# [03:15] * skk I think, in future, the web tech should deal with such device. Dealing with such will broaden the use of web. But currently, it takes too much time, and technically, we think about lots of things. So another place might be better to discuss this topic.
# [03:15] <dauwhe> shane: we had discussion during break
# [03:15] <dauwhe> Matt: should be clear instruction in script that shape is complex, that you'll need more than CSS
# [03:15] <dauwhe> glazou: thinking out loud
# [03:16] <dauwhe> ... having svg shape in doc tree and referring to selector in r side o media query
# [03:16] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/#supported-basic-shapes
# [03:16] <dauwhe> ... this is doable in future
# [03:16] <dauwhe> ... we should not reject immediately
# [03:16] <fantasai> dbaron -- https://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/#supported-basic-shapes I would use the inset() syntax instead of points.
# [03:16] <dauwhe> ... it may not be implementatble right now, but is valid solution
# [03:16] <Rossen> q
# [03:16] <dauwhe> Rossen: we're not doing anything to prevent it
# [03:16] <Florian> q?
# [03:16] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [03:16] <astearns> q?
# [03:16] * Zakim sees MaRakow, SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> ack MaRakow
# [03:17] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <astearns> ack MaRakow
# [03:17] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, shane on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> ack SimonSapin
# [03:17] <dauwhe> s/Matt:/MaRakow/
# [03:17] * Zakim sees shane on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> ack shane
# [03:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <astearns> ack SimonSapin
# [03:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:17] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: breakout discussion... can I put an element in a location without having it exluded by the screen
# [03:17] <dauwhe> ... here's a point. is it inside the screen or not? with a few addressing schemes... cartesian, polar, etc
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... is this point 100% 0 in screen? media q true or false
# [03:18] <dauwhe> fantasai: interesting direction
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... points are diminsionless
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... so use offsets
# [03:18] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: you need more than boxes
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... points get you 90% and are super-trivial
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... do this as level one
# [03:18] <dauwhe> ... expand to use path at this location
# [03:19] <dauwhe> fantasai: it's simple for implementor
# [03:19] <dauwhe> ... it's hard for author; they need to work in areas
# [03:19] <dauwhe> ... using points to get areas is hard from authoring perspective
# [03:19] <dauwhe> ... need to put lots of points to see if it's a curve or a notch etc
# [03:19] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: no it's not
# [03:19] <Florian> q+
# [03:19] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [03:19] * gsnedders as an author, I totally agree with fantasai, FWIW
# [03:19] <dauwhe> ... it's not sufficeint to say I can put a rectangular box here
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# [03:20] <dauwhe> fantasai: better if we let them put the assumption into the syntax
# [03:20] <tantek> q?
# [03:20] * Zakim sees Florian on the speaker queue
# [03:20] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we want it to be easy to author; arbitrary shapes are difficult
# [03:20] * tantek nobody puts css box in the corner.
# [03:20] <dauwhe> Florian: I agree with tab you want arbitrary shapes
# [03:20] <fantasai> I'm not saying that we should not do paths for arbitrary shapes at some point.
# [03:20] * astearns when Florian mentioned consensus had been achieved over the break, I thought to make a joke about assigning someone to vehemently disagree
# [03:20] * MaRakow tantek lol!
# [03:20] <fantasai> But starting with a point is not author-friendly
# [03:20] <dauwhe> ... but a box as bounding box of arbitrary shape is more useful than point
# [03:21] <Bert1> q+ to suggest '@media (max-corner-radius: 20px) and (corner: simple)' = corner is an actual rounded corner; '(corner: complex)' = the corner-radius is just a safe approximation, but the actual shape is not a simple rounded corner.
# [03:21] * Zakim sees Florian, Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:21] <dauwhe> ... point approach will break on unexpeccted shapes
# [03:21] <dauwhe> ... box fails in a better way
# [03:21] * tantek tends to agree with Florian on this
# [03:21] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I'm fine with boxes, especially if they're optional
# [03:21] <tantek> making it easier for the author to get something reliable tends to be good design
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# [03:22] <dauwhe> fantasai: we should reuse inset syntax from shapes module
# [03:22] <dauwhe> dbaron: is that rounded boxes?
# [03:22] <dauwhe> fantasai: it's an optional argument
# [03:22] <dauwhe> ... gives users less new syntax to use
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# [03:22] <tantek> reusingsyntax++
# [03:22] <dauwhe> dbaron: we want to specify points in multiple coordinate systems
# [03:22] <dauwhe> ... as polar, as pixels across the box
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# [03:22] <dauwhe> ... does that work with inset
# [03:22] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: yes, but has polar anchor problems
# [03:23] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/#supported-basic-shapes
# [03:23] <dauwhe> fantasai: circle has positioning syntax
# [03:23] <dauwhe> ... shapes syntax does everything you want
# [03:23] <dauwhe> ... we can pick a necessary subset of this, like circles and inset rectangles
# [03:23] <dauwhe> ... then authors don't have to come up with multiple syntax
# [03:24] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: inset is off of the reference rectangle, bounding box of screen
# [03:24] <dauwhe> ... i want to put an x in corner, you need to do big offsets
# [03:24] <dauwhe> ... simpler to do 20x20 box
# [03:24] <dauwhe> zcorpan: if we only do points, we can pretend it's a rectangle
# [03:24] <dauwhe> ... for 20x20 box in corner, query lower left corner
# [03:24] <dauwhe> ... gives you same info
# [03:24] <dbaron> s/as polar/as polar, as percentage/
# [03:25] <dauwhe> Florian: your box might be mostly obscured
# [03:25] <dauwhe> dbaron: we should action someone to write a proposal
# [03:25] <dauwhe> Rossen: good idea
# [03:25] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: disagreeing on what the proposal should be
# [03:25] <dauwhe> Steve: you have to know which corner you're asking for
# [03:26] <dauwhe> ... if you're going for upper right, use upper right corner of rectangle, tells you most of what rectange would
# [03:26] <dauwhe> Florian: the bounding box solves correctly, the point doesn't
# [03:26] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I don't care about this crazy screen
# [03:26] <dauwhe> Florian: bounding box is more robust in error cases
# [03:26] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: as soon as we go to square, we get complex behavioure with polar
# [03:27] <Bert1> q+ to suggest instead '@media (is-visible: rect(0, 0, 10px, 10px)) {/* it's safe to put a 10x10 box in the top left corner */}
# [03:27] * Zakim sees Florian, Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... points will be slightly less useful
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... but referencing scheme is simple
# [03:27] <Rossen> ack Florian
# [03:27] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... keep MQ as simple as possible
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... this is already above my threshold
# [03:27] <Rossen> ack Bert1
# [03:27] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:27] <dauwhe> Bert1: listening about rectangles
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... ask is that rectangle visible
# [03:27] <Rossen> q?
# [03:27] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:27] <dauwhe> ... put 20x20 box in corner
# [03:27] <Rossen> ack Bert
# [03:27] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest '@media (max-corner-radius: 20px) and (corner: simple)' = corner is an actual rounded corner; '(corner: complex)' = the corner-radius is just a safe
# [03:27] <Zakim> ... approximation, but the actual shape is not a simple rounded corner. and to suggest instead '@media (is-visible: rect(0, 0, 10px, 10px)) {/* it's safe to put a 10x10 box in the
# [03:27] <Zakim> ... top left corner */}
# [03:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:28] <dauwhe> ... don't need to know the shape, only if the box is visible
# [03:28] <dauwhe> ... get true or fals
# [03:28] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [03:28] <dauwhe> Steve: that's fantasai's proposal
# [03:28] <dauwhe> ... it's still iterative, so you have to keep sampling into you get true
# [03:28] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: or switch to JS
# [03:28] <dauwhe> Florian: or use polar coordinates with contain
# [03:28] <dauwhe> fantasai: most layouts won't be this simple
# [03:29] <dauwhe> ... need to have some idea of what layout you're in
# [03:29] <dauwhe> ... you don't get reasonable results by using that in square
# [03:29] <dauwhe> Florian: then you can use shapes
# [03:30] * Quits: bro (~bro@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [03:30] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: harder to use different addressing schemes with Bert's proposals
# [03:30] <Florian> s/shapes/shape-inside:display/
# [03:30] <dauwhe> fantasai: this is fine for lots of complex cases
# [03:30] <dauwhe> ... harder for simple cases... is this thing square?
# [03:30] <dauwhe> ... you can't ask that simply
# [03:30] <dauwhe> ... for ellipse or circle or rectangle
# [03:30] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: need version for yea/nay on rectangle
# [03:31] <dauwhe> fantasai: adv. of rounded rects gives you common cases
# [03:31] <dauwhe> Florian: I'm not sure... are you proposing circle/rectange
# [03:31] <dauwhe> fantasai: I'm suggesting what Bert did
# [03:31] <dauwhe> ... rectangles get you a lot of the way
# [03:31] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: then you can't do polar coordinates
# [03:31] <dauwhe> fantasai: you could do points and rectangles
# [03:31] <dauwhe> ... you get is this visible very quickly
# [03:32] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: that sounds fine
# [03:32] <dauwhe> ... rect using cartesion
# [03:32] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [03:32] <dauwhe> ... points with whatever
# [03:32] <dauwhe> fantasai: then we can add more shapes; we have a functional notation
# [03:32] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: are people ok with that
# [03:32] <dauwhe> Rossen: can you summarize
# [03:33] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: an "is visible" media query that takes rect (cartesiaon) or polar point
# [03:33] <dauwhe> ... and is either true or false
# [03:33] <dauwhe> ... slight complification of what we agreed on
# [03:33] <dauwhe> .... solves rect cases better
# [03:33] <dauwhe> Rossen: ok
# [03:33] <dauwhe> fantasai: inset would also be useful
# [03:33] <dauwhe> ... if I go inset by 5px do I clear all the rectangles
# [03:33] * Joins: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [03:34] <fantasai> s/rectangles/screen boundaries/
# [03:34] <dauwhe> Florian: this solves much better than everything else, "can I put this in the corner"
# [03:34] <dauwhe> ... therefore I'm in favor
# [03:34] <dauwhe> Rossen: anything else?
# [03:34] <dauwhe> Florian: what it doesn't solve is having a very different design on round
# [03:34] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: sure it does, try lots of points to show it's round
# [03:34] <dauwhe> Rossen: if becomes a prime use case we'll deal
# [03:34] <dbaron> I wrote up a summary of the discussion that happened over the break to explain some of the things we considered and ruled out: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0220.html
# [03:35] * Joins: sangwoo (~sangwoo@public.cloak)
# [03:35] <dauwhe> zcorpan: shouldn't be "is visible", which implys wouldn't be visible if scrolled
# [03:35] <dauwhe> Florian: fits in screen
# [03:35] <dbaron> "in display"?
# [03:35] <dauwhe> hyojin: is this enough for you to go write spec
# [03:35] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I can help
# [03:35] <dauwhe> Florian: you should get help
# [03:35] <dauwhe> hyojin: i think this is reasonable technology
# [03:35] <Bert1> q+ to mention one other issue: relative to device or to viewport? or both?
# [03:35] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [03:35] * Joins: ChrisLilley (clilley@public.cloak)
# [03:36] <dauwhe> ... if I have some trouble I will ask for help
# [03:36] <dauwhe> Rossen: sounds great
# [03:36] <dauwhe> Steve: responding to florian
# [03:36] <dauwhe> ... since you can already get bounding rect in MQ
# [03:36] <MaRakow> positioning of the shape in question is relative to AABB of the display?
# [03:36] <dauwhe> ... querying for ellipse, major an dminor axis that covers shape
# [03:36] <dauwhe> ... take the intersection of those two as defining points in the area
# [03:36] * Joins: sena (~sena@public.cloak)
# [03:37] <dauwhe> ... then you can discover if circle or ellipse
# [03:37] <dauwhe> ... just like border radius
# [03:37] <dauwhe> ... those two values would give you most of the shapes we care aobut
# [03:37] <dauwhe> ... you would have to do calculations
# [03:37] <dauwhe> Florian: every single definition of device radius is doable in JS
# [03:37] * Joins: hwlee (~hwlee@public.cloak)
# [03:38] <dauwhe> ... it's not convienent to write that JS, but its possible
# [03:38] <dauwhe> Steve: with the four values you can do everything
# [03:38] * Quits: sangwoo (~sangwoo@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [03:38] <dauwhe> ... four values, not infinite :)
# [03:38] <dauwhe> fantasai: that's very simple
# [03:38] <dauwhe> ... i think this is cool
# [03:38] <dauwhe> ... let's write proposals, but let's investigate steve's idea
# [03:38] <dauwhe> ... which is good for reasonable cases
# [03:39] <dauwhe> Rossen: can you summarize in an email and send to list
# [03:39] <dauwhe> dbaron: I sent summary of break discussion to list
# [03:39] <dauwhe> Rossen: OK. let's move on
# [03:39] <dauwhe> Bert1: one question
# [03:39] * Joins: YusukeNakayaAndroid (~YusukeNakayaAndroi@public.cloak)
# [03:39] <dauwhe> ... should we talk about viewport instead of device?
# [03:39] <dauwhe> ... might not be the same
# [03:39] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: yes
# [03:40] <dauwhe> Bert1: viewport is enough, you don't need device
# [03:40] <fantasai> Steve's proposal is, roughly, device-radius-x/device-radius-y, where the radii are from the center of the device to the edge of the smalles ellipse that covers the screen
# [03:40] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: device is irrelevant
# [03:40] <dauwhe> dino: resolution we made before, dropping polar orientation
# [03:40] <fantasai> (This is different from device-corner-radius-x/y, which are just defining the curve of the corners.)
# [03:40] <dauwhe> ... adding more grammars to ???
# [03:40] <TabAtkins> s/???/rotate()/
# [03:40] <dauwhe> Florian: yes, that's correct
# [03:40] <dauwhe> dino: I don't like changing transforms for this use case
# [03:41] <MaRakow> +1 to dino
# [03:41] <dauwhe> ... we can move on, but want to discuss later
# [03:41] <dauwhe> astearns: fragmentation was in morning
# [03:41] <Bert1> q-
# [03:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:41] <dauwhe> fantasai: issue raised by ted
# [03:41] <dauwhe> dino: can you link to that point?
# [03:41] <Rossen> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-break/issues-lc-2015#issue-24
# [03:41] <dauwhe> ... Issue 24
# [03:42] <dauwhe> ... hober can't remember; he denies it happened
# [03:42] <dauwhe> ... was it cut and paste
# [03:42] <fantasai> "hober: I liked the compound names with force."
# [03:42] <dauwhe> astearns: hober liked the names with dash
# [03:42] <dauwhe> Florian: that's my understanding
# [03:42] <dauwhe> dino: I don't think this is worth ... . he didn't raise objection
# [03:43] <dauwhe> fantasai: the question is, we have break-before which has values column, page, region, auto
# [03:43] <fantasai> break-before: auto | page | column |avoid-page | avoid-column
# [03:43] <dauwhe> ... we have avoid-page
# [03:43] <astearns> s/dash/force-/
# [03:43] <dauwhe> ... it's a bit unclear what break-before-page means, it means a page break before the element
# [03:43] <fantasai> break-before: page
# [03:43] <fantasai> break-before: force-page
# [03:43] <dauwhe> ... maybe having force- is clearer
# [03:43] * Quits: jh (~jh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [03:44] <dauwhe> dino: I don't think hober feels strongly
# [03:44] <dauwhe> Rossen: I like shorter
# [03:44] <fantasai> astearns: I prefer shorter
# [03:44] <dauwhe> Resolved: no change on issue 24
# [03:44] <dauwhe> fantasai: we need transition request
# [03:45] <dauwhe> Rossen: we have two staff contacts in room
# [03:45] <dauwhe> fantasai: transition request for fragmentation to CR
# [03:45] <dauwhe> Rossen: Chris, you'll do this?
# [03:45] <dauwhe> astearns: do we have tests
# [03:45] <dauwhe> Rossen: some
# [03:45] <dauwhe> ... more would be better
# [03:45] <dauwhe> astearns: nice to have a test for every section, just one, when we make transition to cr
# [03:45] * Joins: YusukeNakayaJP (~YusukeNakayaJP@public.cloak)
# [03:45] <dauwhe> Rossen: I think that's the case
# [03:46] <dauwhe> astearns: nice to have slight coverage
# [03:46] <dauwhe> Rossen: that's all on fragmentation
# [03:46] <dauwhe> ... we've exhausted the morning session
# [03:46] <dauwhe> ... fourteen minutes before noon
# [03:46] <dauwhe> ... any quick topics?
# [03:46] * Quits: YusukeNakayaAndroid (~YusukeNakayaAndroi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:46] <dauwhe> fantasai: some short scroll snapping
# [03:46] <astearns> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue
# [03:46] <dauwhe> Topic: scroll snapping issues
# [03:47] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue
# [03:47] <dauwhe> fantasai: let me find an issue that is not long
# [03:47] <dauwhe> dino: we were up to 28
# [03:47] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-54
# [03:47] <dauwhe> ... 28 is simple
# [03:47] <dauwhe> fantasai: we planned to defer 28
# [03:47] <dauwhe> ... i haven't updated
# [03:47] <dauwhe> dino: we talked about 28
# [03:47] <dauwhe> fantasai: we should do 54
# [03:48] <dauwhe> ... determine whether mandatory or proximity per element rather than per scroll container
# [03:48] <dauwhe> ... so q is we don't know how this works
# [03:48] <dauwhe> ... should we investigate or close as no change
# [03:48] <dauwhe> Rossen: thats the model where half elements mandatory, half proximity
# [03:48] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: it's mandatory, but some don't have wide attraction radius
# [03:49] <dauwhe> ... that's dumb
# [03:49] <dauwhe> astearns: one with very large radius
# [03:49] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: don't put in author's control
# [03:49] <dauwhe> Rossen: this is something we can push to level 2
# [03:49] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:49] <dauwhe> fantasai: raised florian
# [03:49] <dauwhe> Florian: I disagree with old florian
# [03:49] <dauwhe> fantasai: closed as no change
# [03:49] <dauwhe> ... next is issue 60
# [03:50] <dauwhe> ... scroll jumping discreet snapping spreadsheet thing
# [03:50] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: some spreadsheets scroll only by whole rows
# [03:50] <dauwhe> ... I'm ok with deferring
# [03:50] <dauwhe> ... unless wg thinks this is crucial
# [03:50] <dauwhe> Steve: how do you make cut for level 1
# [03:50] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: simplest possible thing that robustly solves interesting cases
# [03:51] <dauwhe> Rossen: let's record a resolution
# [03:51] <dauwhe> Resolved: defer to level 2
# [03:51] <dauwhe> fantasai: can inertial scrolls skip snap positions
# [03:51] <dauwhe> ... MS has distinction between single and multiple mandatory
# [03:52] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the initial windows version had mandatory an dproximity, and a separate axis, single and multiple
# [03:52] <dauwhe> ... single meant that inertia captured next point
# [03:52] <astearns> (issue 64)
# [03:52] <dauwhe> ... safari is mandatory multiple
# [03:52] <dauwhe> ... MS is mandatory single (???)
# [03:53] <dauwhe> MaRakow: the biggest problem with single is ??? entities
# [03:53] <fantasai> s/??? entities/home and end keys/
# [03:53] <dauwhe> ... that's a too-strict interpretation of mandatory
# [03:53] <fantasai> MaRakow: Those should go directly to the start and end
# [03:53] <dauwhe> ... there's no distinction in windows impl
# [03:53] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: what should we default on
# [03:53] <dauwhe> ... if we need both, what behviour is mandatory, and what call the other
# [03:53] <dauwhe> Florian: both makes sense
# [03:54] <dauwhe> Florian: I can't calibrate my fling, so I just want the next one
# [03:54] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: it's a separate axis
# [03:54] <dauwhe> Florian: multiple and single doesn't sound great
# [03:54] <dauwhe> fantasai: "this scroll point captures all inertia" might not make sense by element
# [03:55] <fantasai> s/I can't calibrate/Suppose I have a set of articles on one page, and I want to go to the next one. I don't want to force to always be on a snap position, but also I can't calibrate/
# [03:55] <fantasai> [Florian was talking about proximity single]
# [03:55] <fantasai> s/might not/might/
# [03:56] <fantasai> fantaai: For example, in Florian's case, you might want snap positions within the article, don't want those to trap all inertia
# [03:56] <fantasai> fantasai: but want the snap points between articles to trap all inertia
# [03:56] <fantasai> s/aai/asai/
# [03:56] <dauwhe> dino: I don't think that use case is valid
# [03:56] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: articles arranged vertically
# [03:57] <dauwhe> dino: I still think navigation to next one; it's hard to distinguish between scrolling and swiping
# [03:57] <dauwhe> MaRakow: there's a lot of nuance
# [03:57] <dauwhe> ... two ways of describing single
# [03:57] <dauwhe> ... at least one vs no more than one
# [03:57] <dauwhe> ... make single gesture, article is very long
# [03:57] <dauwhe> ... there's 2 way s of interpreting
# [03:57] <dauwhe> Florian: not incompatible with what you say
# [03:58] <dauwhe> ... if you have recognized gesture that does that; there's no detection on my mouse wheel
# [03:58] <dauwhe> MaRakow: we're trying to define default action for certain inputs
# [03:58] <dauwhe> ... no spec says arrow down should doing something specific
# [03:58] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: we're just sorting out your two behaviours
# [03:58] <fantasai> Discussing https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-64
# [03:59] <dauwhe> MaRakow: there's some potential leniency here
# [03:59] * fantasai notes ppl might want to reload, anchors are broken on the previous, sorry!
# [03:59] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: which behaviour should we default to
# [03:59] <dauwhe> MaRakow: leave it up to ua
# [03:59] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: single vs multple changes behavour a lot
# [03:59] <dauwhe> ... does fling go really far, or to next page
# [04:00] <Florian> scroll-snap-stop: always | inertial
# [04:00] <dauwhe> ... too different for it to be UA default
# [04:00] <dauwhe> MaRakow: UA could have smart default
# [04:00] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the two interpretations are not equally good
# [04:00] <dauwhe> MaRakow: it can vary on whether UA has animation support, etc
# [04:00] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: none of them do
# [04:00] <dauwhe> ... you have an amount of inertia
# [04:01] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: that's a minor detail for users
# [04:01] <dauwhe> MaRakow: there's some that will accelerate based on number of gestures, etc
# [04:01] <dauwhe> ... lots of ua-specific inputs that don't exist in all uas
# [04:01] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: the fling gesture is universal
# [04:01] <fantasai> s/that's a minor/the amount of inertia calculated is a minor/
# [04:01] <dauwhe> ... gives you same basic behaviour across all devices
# [04:02] <dauwhe> ... they are distinct and separate behavours that authors will either want or not want
# [04:02] <dauwhe> Florian: there's a bigger variation on author use cases
# [04:02] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [04:02] <dauwhe> ... in slide show you mean go to next slide no matter how hard
# [04:02] <fantasai> s/they are distinct/single vs multiple are distinct/
# [04:02] <dauwhe> ... in carousel a big fling should go farther
# [04:02] * Quits: ymasao (~masa@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [04:03] * Joins: ymasao (~masa@public.cloak)
# [04:03] <dauwhe> ... we need to know if inertial fling means go to next thing or go far
# [04:03] <fantasai> single = inertia cannot take you past one snap position
# [04:03] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: nothing else in spec gives such a gulf in behaviour
# [04:03] <Florian> scroll-snap-stop: always | inertial
# [04:03] <fantasai> multipe = inertia, however it's calculated, can take you past one snap position; you go until the nearest snap position to your landing position
# [04:03] <dauwhe> Florian: just pasting into irc a proposed name
# [04:04] <dauwhe> fantasai: given that you might want diff. behav. per snap point in same scroller, either way we're going to have a separate switch because it's on item instead of behaviour
# [04:04] * Quits: ymasao (~masa@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [04:04] <dauwhe> ... both prox. and mand. can have single behaviour
# [04:04] <dauwhe> ... default for prox and mand. is to allow for multiple
# [04:05] <dauwhe> ... can consider adding switch for single for element inside of scroll container
# [04:05] <dauwhe> Florian: the property would apply to element not container
# [04:05] <dauwhe> fantasai: call it auto
# [04:05] * Quits: AndreyR (~AndreyR@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:05] <dauwhe> ... it means multiple
# [04:05] <dauwhe> ... from author perspecitvve these are all methods of scrolling
# [04:06] * SimonSapin Rossen, ChrisLilley: following up yesterday’s wide gamut discussion, agenda+ what should we do with https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color-correction/ ?
# [04:06] <dauwhe> Florian: you and i are bikeshedding
# [04:06] <dauwhe> MaRakow: do you have proposal
# [04:06] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: florians scroll-snap-stop, naming tbd
# [04:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can be deferred to next level, keep multiple (Safari behavior) for L1
# [04:07] * glazou in W3C, IE does not mean MSFT browser any more, it's only Invited Expert
# [04:07] <dauwhe> dino: I'm happy with default safari behavour
# [04:07] * astearns SimonSapin we'll try to add that in this afternoon
# [04:07] <dauwhe> ... I think there is a case for full screen don't use inertia
# [04:07] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: happy to do that
# [04:07] <fantasai> dino: so would prefer not to defer
# [04:07] <dauwhe> ... for majority use case we don't need
# [04:07] <dauwhe> Florian: it belongs in level 1
# [04:07] <dauwhe> fantasai: proximity is multiple
# [04:07] <dauwhe> ... that's least intrusive for useful
# [04:08] <dauwhe> Florian: I still want switch in level1
# [04:08] <fantasai> s/useful/users/
# [04:08] <dauwhe> MaRakow: I want to see a proposal
# [04:08] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: I'll write up what florian posted
# [04:08] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: can resolve on default behaviour
# [04:08] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:08] <dauwhe> Florian: that's what they want a written proposal for
# [04:09] <dauwhe> Rossen: proposed resolution as is, multiple always for both prox and mandatory
# [04:09] <dauwhe> fantasai: looking to adding a switch
# [04:09] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: proximity doesn't force you to land
# [04:09] <dauwhe> ... you can scroll around
# [04:09] <dauwhe> fantasai: (drawing at white board)
# [04:09] * Quits: katashin (~katashin@public.cloak) (katashin)
# [04:10] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [04:10] * astearns "...like Mario..."
# [04:10] * Quits: sam (osamu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:10] <dauwhe> Florian: in proximity you can stop anywhere
# [04:10] * Joins: katashin (~katashin@public.cloak)
# [04:11] <dauwhe> ... but you cannot scroll past on an inertial fling
# [04:11] <dauwhe> ... a fling will stop you
# [04:11] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [04:11] <dauwhe> MaRakow: I have no troulbe understanding
# [04:11] <dauwhe> ... what does it mean for compat, etc. There's more thought needed
# [04:12] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: compat wise it won't matter as you are prefixed/flagged
# [04:12] <dauwhe> ... behaviour-wise, definitions are already in API guide
# [04:12] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:12] <dauwhe> Rossen: let's move on
# [04:12] <dauwhe> dino: lunch line is an issue
# [04:12] <dauwhe> Rossen: lunch break
# [04:12] * Quits: brady_duga (~duga@public.cloak) (brady_duga)
# [04:13] <dauwhe> ... given Matt wants a week, we have a proposed resolution in a week
# [04:13] * Quits: shigeya (~shigeya@public.cloak) (shigeya)
# [04:13] <dauwhe> fantasai: there's two more short issues; after lunch
# [04:13] <dauwhe> Rossen: 3pm we have joint meeting
# [04:14] <dauwhe> astearns: we'll resume after joint meeting
# [04:14] <jchiba> https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3fwj38z8kagx01/snap-point-multiple.jpg?dl=0
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# [04:14] <dauwhe> break type=lunch
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# [05:09] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-69
# [05:09] <astearns> resuming, continuing on snap points
# [05:09] <fantasai> fantasai: Define what happens when there's no snap points
# [05:10] <fantasai> fantasai: Do you snap to somethng, or don't snap or what?
# [05:10] <fantasai> fantasai: Tab and I figured if there's no snap positions defined, scroll freely
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# [05:11] <MaRakow> If a valid, reachable snap point exists, you must snap to it (for mandatory)
# [05:11] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-72
# [05:11] <fantasai> If there isn't, you don't snap to anything
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# [05:12] <fantasai> RESOLVED: If no snap positions defined, no snapping happens; scroll freely
# [05:12] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-82
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# [05:13] <fantasai> fantasai: [summarizes]
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# [05:15] <fantasai> MaRakow: This is way outside scenarious that I've ever ooked at.
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# [05:16] <fantasai> MaRakow: Happy to go to with simpler one
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# [05:16] <fantasai> Rossen: Yeah, seems to agree with what I remember
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# [05:16] <fantasai> RESOLVED: 'overflow: auto | scroll' captures snap positions in both axes, regardless of scroll-snap-type value
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# [05:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Someone mentioned that it would be nice to trap descendant snap points even if not a scroller
# [05:18] <fantasai> fantasai: original suggestion was to use snap-points-x/y lack of elements value
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# [05:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Tab and I thought that's weird, snap-points-x/y are about coordinates.
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# [05:20] <fantasai> fantasai: But scroll-snap-type is about processing descendant snap positions, so thought that a non-none value, or perhaps a special "trap" value, would apply to all elements and capture snap positions inside
# [05:20] <fantasai> MaRakow: So snap positions are associated to nearest ancestor with overflow: scroll | auto or scroll-snap-type: non-none
# [05:20] <fantasai> MaRakow: That seems reasonable.
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# [05:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Variations on proposal is, non-none values, or do we want a special keyword
# [05:21] <fantasai> MaRakow: I would prefer non-none
# [05:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Seem reasonable to others?
# [05:21] <astearns> ...general head-nodding...
# [05:22] <fantasai> Rossen: Yeah, similar to how position traps things
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# [05:22] <fantasai> RESOLVED: scroll-snap-type applies to all elements, non-none values trap snap positions of descendants
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# [05:26] <fantasai> Topic: All Spec Review
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# [05:28] <fantasai> glazou: I took all the documents in our web space, w3.org, and look at the last TR publication for that spec and the last dev.w3.org publication
# [05:28] <fantasai> glazou: Some of our documents are really old, meaning that both the official and the ED are old
# [05:28] <fantasai> glazou: These ones are endangered
# [05:28] <fantasai> glazou: Some have an old pubdate on TR, or the draft is not recently updated, and there's some action needed
# [05:28] <fantasai> glazou: And some in perfect state
# [05:29] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Wrt color correction, we decided to remove yesterday the section that contains the exact same content as this draft
# [05:29] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Should we just remove this draft?
# [05:30] <fantasai> SimonSapin: It's just an ED
# [05:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Redirect color correction to css-color-4, remove draft
# [05:30] <fantasai> glazou: Basic Box Model
# [05:30] <SimonSapin> s/the section/the section of css-color-4/
# [05:30] <fantasai> glazou: These documents give a fals image of our WG
# [05:30] <fantasai> glazou: Another example is Speech
# [05:30] * Rossen the WebApps joint meeting just got moved to back to 3pm
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# [05:31] <fantasai> glazou: It was activiely maintained by dweck, but he moved to something else
# [05:31] <fantasai> glazou: we have a CR that is now 3.5 years old
# [05:31] <fantasai> glazou: But the last ED is same date
# [05:31] <fantasai> fantasai: There's nothing to change, we're waiting for implementations.
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# [05:31] * tantek is in joint Social Web WG / Annotations WG meeting.
# [05:32] <fantasai> fantasai: I think in some cases we just need to wait. In others, if we think it's no longer a good idea, remove it.
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# [05:32] <fantasai> glazou: Let's add a note explaining its status then
# [05:32] <fantasai> glazou: Orange drafts, just require a new WD
# [05:32] <fantasai> glazou: Yellow ones, list is pretty ong
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: Just needs publication
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# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: font loading L3, almost at hte bottom. LC from 2014, but we have an ED from this month.
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: So we should republish
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: to let public know that document is still active, still maintaining.
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: Then we have green ones, which are perfectly safe
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: If someon has no knowledge of our group, goes to that docuemnt, seems perfectly normal
# [05:33] <fantasai> glazou: This list is too long
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# [05:34] <fantasai> glazou: We have a committment problem to republish. We should republish more often
# [05:34] <fantasai> glazou: Semi-official rules of W3C want us to republish every 3 months
# [05:34] <fantasai> zcorpan: 6 months per spec
# [05:34] <fantasai> jdaggett: For specs that are in CR, even though they're in CR, we should publish?
# [05:34] <fantasai> glazou: CR document is a little bit different, need to finish test suite and move on
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: CR that remains 5 years in CR, this is not normal
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: COnditional Rules is CR since 2013, have ED from 2015
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: We need to do something
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: Either republish because technical change, or need to finish the spec
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: I'm saying we have too many documents of that kind in this WG
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# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: We are roughly 30 ppl, 60+ documents on the radar
# [05:35] <fantasai> glazou: our goal is not t submit more and more proposals
# [05:36] <fantasai> glazou: Our goal is to submit proposals and make sure they become a standard
# [05:36] <fantasai> glazou: Shouldn't tkae 5 years to reach rec
# [05:36] <fantasai> jdaggett: Practically speaking, this group has for the most part, 2 major contributors
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# [05:36] <fantasai> glazou: If someone looks at our work, what does that person see?
# [05:36] <fantasai> glazou: Documents that stay out of rec forever
# [05:36] * gsnedders TabAtkins and fantasai aren't committed enough. That's what we should take away, right?
# [05:36] <fantasai> glazou: We have to do something
# [05:37] <fantasai> glazou: First republish documents that need republication
# [05:37] <fantasai> glazou: Too many documents need republishing
# [05:37] <fantasai> jdaggett: i'm still confused, e.g. for Fonts, there are some minor edits, but what does that mean about this list?
# [05:37] <fantasai> jdaggett: Are we taking that back to WD?
# [05:38] <fantasai> fantasai: New process doesn't require that, can just republish CR.
# [05:38] <fantasai> Florian: Have multiple problems
# [05:38] <fantasai> Florian: We have some documents with changes that need republication, that we just have to do.
# [05:38] <fantasai> Florian: But reaching REC, it's not something we can do. We need implementations.
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# [05:38] <fantasai> glazou: Let's take 1 concrete example, used worldwide by everyone, Transitions and Transforms.
# [05:38] <fantasai> glazou: These are WDs from 2013
# [05:39] <fantasai> glazou: The whole world is relying on theses. We have a problem.
# [05:39] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm editor of Transitions
# [05:39] <fantasai> dbaron: My biggest issue is good issue tracking software
# [05:39] <fantasai> dbaron: to create disposition of comments
# [05:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not very good at telling people, you made a comment on this spec, I don't think it's actionable therefore I'm acting on it.
# [05:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We just send such an email. Just do it.
# [05:40] <fantasai> glazou: Multicol layout is CR since 2011
# [05:40] <fantasai> glazou: Implemented everywhere
# [05:40] * liam notes there's issue tracking software (e.g. tracker, bugzilla, github) that can produce an automatic disposition of comments
# [05:40] <fantasai> Florian: It's not implemented everywhere to the point that it can go to REC.
# [05:41] <fantasai> glazou: There's a core featureset that works
# [05:41] <fantasai> fantasai: Minus miscellaneous bugs, there's a lot of misc bugs
# [05:41] <fantasai> glazou: implemnted, not implemented
# [05:41] <fantasai> Florian: multicol is implemented, but very buggy
# [05:41] <fantasai> Florian: multicol is very different from [?]
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# [05:41] <fantasai> glazou: I want to have this session where 7 years ago we had similar problem.
# [05:41] <astearns> s/[?]/transitions/
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: We had some CRs, some WDs, but not publishing RECs
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: Got signal from staff, this is th wrong way to work
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: here we have CRs that remain CRs forever
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: I suspect we're going to have the same problem
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: We have a problem with tst suites that we are never able to complete
# [05:42] <fantasai> glazou: We have problems with tools, I can gree with that, but we have to do something.
# [05:42] <fantasai> Florian: Wrt test suites, we have multipile problems on test suites
# [05:42] <fantasai> Florian: Not enough people write, not enough people review
# [05:42] <fantasai> Florian: I have tests pending review for months
# [05:42] * tantek is bummed to be missing this conversation :/
# [05:43] <fantasai> Florian: If I can't get tests reviewed, not sure how to move forward
# [05:43] <fantasai> Florian: There's a problem of tooling, but not only.
# [05:43] <fantasai> Florian: Should we find a different way to find ppl to review tests?
# [05:43] <fantasai> Florian: Tests that remainunreviewed for months don't encourage writing more tests
# [05:43] <tantek> or find a different way to allow *anyone* to review tests and approve/comment
# [05:43] <tantek> and have that logged
# [05:43] <fantasai> glazou: Shouldn't work on all tests together. Prioritize, do a few specs per quarter or semester
# [05:43] * fantasai we do
# [05:43] <fantasai> glazou: Then it's done
# [05:43] <tantek> it's a bit opaque
# [05:43] * fantasai tantek, anyone can review
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# [05:44] <tantek> fantasai: the word "review" does not exist on this page: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
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# [05:44] <tantek> if you have to know where to look, then no, not anyone can review. it's not discoverable.
# [05:45] * fantasai yeah docs suck, need to fix them
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# [05:45] <fantasai> fantasai: We should audit specs and republish as necessary yes, testing is a bigger topic.
# [05:45] <fantasai> glazou: days of 100 tests per spec are over...
# [05:45] <fantasai> glazou: I'm not sure old way of making tests is going to survive
# [05:46] <fantasai> fantasai: We have a break-out session on testing tomorrow, with gsnedders . Suggest we discuss that then.
# [05:46] <fantasai> fantasai: What do you want to do now?
# [05:46] <fantasai> glazou: Update the outdated drafts
# [05:46] <fantasai> glazou: That's all for these documents.
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# [05:46] <fantasai> glazou: For list of red documents, if we can move to attick, let's do it,
# [05:46] <fantasai> glazou: If some need strong warnting, let's do it
# [05:46] <fantasai> glazou: For the others we, make decisions
# [05:47] <dino> I can see the Press Release: Today the CSS Working Group released new Working Drafts of Speech, Text Decoration 3, Masking 1, Exclusions, ....
# [05:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Speech I think we just need to leave there, no implementations, alternative is to rescind the recommendation
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# [05:48] <fantasai> fantasai: Speech has two options: stay as is, or rescind
# [05:48] <fantasai> liam: Or republish just to refresh the date
# [05:49] <fantasai> Florian: Status saying that no changes, just waiting for implementations
# [05:49] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Republish speech with updated status
# [05:49] <fantasai> ACTION Bert: Republish speech
# [05:50] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:50] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [05:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-733 - Republish speech [on Bert Bos - due 2015-11-03].
# [05:50] <fantasai> Text Decoration - fantasai to review if any substantive changes
# [05:50] <fantasai> Masking - 1 year old
# [05:50] <fantasai> astearns: Getting some implementation
# [05:50] <fantasai> glazou: Needs work on tests
# [05:50] <fantasai> MaRakow: Deal with this by identifying what it needs, different for each one, e.g. tests for this, republication for that.
# [05:51] <fantasai> MaRakow: We can't force implementations, but if need a push push it
# [05:51] <fantasai> Masking nees tests
# [05:51] <fantasai> glazou: Exclusions, need a WD update?
# [05:51] <fantasai> Rossen: Nothing needs to be edited
# [05:51] <fantasai> Rossen: One implementation of it
# [05:52] <fantasai> Rossen: There are some tests
# [05:52] <fantasai> Florian: What's blocking CR?
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# [05:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Consensus that it's a good model?
# [05:53] <fantasai> fantasai: There were concerns about collisions
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# [05:54] * skk Text Decoration is often used in e-book domain(It is referenced from EPUB). We thought that this is very stable. (I'm not sure but) can it transit to next step? (not enough tests?) I heard that we have slight issues not told to WG.
# [05:55] <fantasai> fantasai: Seems to me 6 months is too strict, we have specs not changing for a year
# [05:55] * dino skk i think you should propose that as an agenda topic for a coming meeting.
# [05:55] <fantasai> Steve: Just want to update the status, that's the goal.
# [05:55] <fantasai> Florian: Update the date is fine, thing that's blocking is not the same.
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# [05:56] <fantasai> Florian: We're waiting either for everyone to agree to implement, or a solution to the problem that's blocking.
# [05:56] <fantasai> glazou: So let's republish, then decide what to do.
# [05:56] <fantasai> astearns: I say we keep it as WD and republish
# [05:57] * skk dino, thanks. I'll hear from my colleagues, and (at first) post it to the list. (after, I want to discuss in the coming meeting if needed)
# [05:57] <fantasai> fantasai: I need to rewrite a section, then publish
# [05:58] <dbaron> fantasai: republishing a spec is an hour's work; consider the value of republishing relative to other work
# [05:58] <fantasai> glazou: Just republish first
# [05:58] <fantasai> glazou: Motion Path, maybe refresh, but not sure, is there any progress on motion path?
# [05:58] <fantasai> dino: 2 implementations
# [05:58] <fantasai> shane: what it needs is tests
# [05:58] <fantasai> glazou: It's an FPWD
# [05:58] <fantasai> glazou: but it's almost ready
# [05:58] <fantasai> s/ready/REC/
# [05:59] <fantasai> dino: Let's publish a second WD
# [06:01] * Joins: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [06:01] <fantasai> fantasai: This is just busywork. Publish an update with fixes to issues.
# [06:01] <fantasai> shane: publish issues
# [06:01] <fantasai> s/publish/5/
# [06:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Then solve the issues, and then publish a WD
# [06:01] <fantasai> glazou: Basic box model
# [06:01] <fantasai> Bert: It's in very bad shape
# [06:01] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Before ai joine dWG, people said, "Don't look at this, it's wrong. Look at CSS2."
# [06:01] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Maybe we shoudl replace it with a document that says "Look at CSS2, we will rewrite it later"
# [06:01] <fantasai> Florian: The ED has a warning, but not the TR
# [06:01] <fantasai> Bert: My preference would be to remove a lot of the content that's strange ideas
# [06:01] * Quits: xidorn (~xidorn@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:01] <fantasai> Bert: Cut it down a lot, just keep description of properties and maybe lots of issues
# [06:02] <fantasai> Florian: If we have time to do that, do that, otherwise delete all content. It remains in source control.
# [06:02] * Joins: xidorn (~xidorn@public.cloak)
# [06:02] * Quits: AndreyR (~AndreyR@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:02] <fantasai> ACTION Bert Publish update WD to Box Model in 4 weeks
# [06:02] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-734 - Publish update wd to box model in 4 weeks [on Bert Bos - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:02] <fantasai> glazou: box alignment
# [06:03] <fantasai> fantasai: A couple issues ot discuss with dbaron, but can publish in November
# [06:03] <fantasai> dbaron: color correction deleted from repo 2 minutes ago
# [06:03] <fantasai> glazou: Mobile tet size adjustment
# [06:03] <fantasai> s/tet/text/
# [06:03] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not quite ready to say we should abandon the spec, but we might want to.
# [06:04] <fantasai> glazou: Then maybe add a warning to it
# [06:04] <fantasai> glazou: OM values
# [06:05] <fantasai> zcorpan, TabAtkins: We should drop that.
# [06:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This is an incomplete proposal from anne, being superceded by Houdini work
# [06:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We should just kill it
# [06:05] * Joins: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [06:06] <fantasai> ACTION plinss Remove cssom-values and redirect to Houdini Typed OM
# [06:06] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:06] <trackbot> Created ACTION-735 - Remove cssom-values and redirect to houdini typed om [on Peter Linss - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:06] <fantasai> glazou: Line Grid 1
# [06:07] <fantasai> astearns: Koji had a proposal for simplifying, should look at that before updating
# [06:07] <fantasai> glazou: Animations needs a republish at least
# [06:07] <fantasai> birtles: Can republish, but want to discuss this afternoon first
# [06:08] <fantasai> glazou: text L3?
# [06:08] <fantasai> fantasai: I have an outstanding action to finish edits and republish, have been avoiding the last 2 years
# [06:08] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:08] * Joins: YusukeNakaya (~YusukeNakaya@public.cloak)
# [06:08] <fantasai> glazou: Fragmentation
# [06:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Need to update DoC and go to CR
# [06:08] <fantasai> glazou: Transforms and Transitions are 2 years old
# [06:09] <fantasai> glazou: Need to do something about that.
# [06:09] * Joins: YusukeNakayaJP (~YusukeNakayaJP@public.cloak)
# [06:09] <fantasai> dbaron: Transitions is lcose neough to CR that I'd rather just get to CR
# [06:09] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not an editor of transforms, I think there are some bits that are not ready for CR.
# [06:10] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't know what's happened since last time
# [06:10] <fantasai> dino: We've got one outstanding issue on 3D transforms, waiting for feedback from MSFT
# [06:10] * Quits: hiro__ (~hiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:10] <fantasai> fantasai: Then let's solve it, and then publish
# [06:11] * fantasai not in favor of publishing fo the sake of publishing
# [06:11] * fantasai suggests to chairs to put Transforms on the telecon agenda in 2 weeks, to pressure ppl to solve the "one remaining issue"
# [06:11] <fantasai> glazou: Variables?
# [06:11] <fantasai> ACTION ChrisL Publish Variables as CR
# [06:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-736 - Publish variables as cr [on Chris Lilley - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:11] <fantasai> ACTION ChrisL Publish Will Change as CR
# [06:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-737 - Publish will change as cr [on Chris Lilley - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:12] <fantasai> glazou: Device Adaptation 4 years old, with edits this september
# [06:12] * gsnedders suggests tomorrow among other things it's probably worthwhile to go through all the specs and look at the number of tests and such like
# [06:12] <MaRakow> marakow: msft has given some feedback on 3d transforms but still outstanding issues that need resolving. ED has new language that needs to be resolved on before republishing
# [06:12] * Joins: shigemi (~shigemi@public.cloak)
# [06:12] <fantasai> Florian: I'm a co-editor. Not actively working. But in discussions with ppk about two things
# [06:12] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:12] <fantasai> Florian: What spec says is mostly correct, but very hard to understand
# [06:12] <fantasai> Florian: So there is a need for significant editorial work
# [06:12] <fantasai> Florian: major rewrite before anyone can understand the spec
# [06:12] <fantasai> Florian: I still think it's a useful concept, but have no time to work on it.
# [06:13] <fantasai> Florian: Don't think we shoudl drop it.
# [06:14] <fantasai> fantasai: If there are changes, we should republish and mark an issue for editorial update
# [06:14] <fantasai> Florian: I can review the content of the changes and see if we need to republish
# [06:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: Date bump is not actually useful unless someone is actually working on it
# [06:14] <fantasai> Florian: There are two partial implementations
# [06:15] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [06:15] <fantasai> fantasai: Can Msft help with editing, given you have an implementation?
# [06:15] <fantasai> Florian: I can take an action to review the changes.
# [06:15] <fantasai> ACTION Florian Review status of device adaptation
# [06:15] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-738 - Review status of device adaptation [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:16] * Joins: atai_ (~atai@public.cloak)
# [06:16] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Matt Rakow added as co-editor on device adaptation
# [06:16] * Joins: AndreyR (~AndreyR@public.cloak)
# [06:16] <fantasai> glazou: Filter effects
# [06:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: dirk schulze
# [06:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No issues
# [06:17] <Florian> action Florian to review changes in device-adaptation to see if we need a new WD or just a date bump
# [06:17] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:17] <trackbot> Created ACTION-739 - Review changes in device-adaptation to see if we need a new wd or just a date bump [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Is it ready for CR?
# [06:17] <fantasai> glazou: GCPM
# [06:17] <fantasai> dauwhe: Moving most to generated content, others have interoperable implementations
# [06:18] <fantasai> Rossen: republish what you have?
# [06:18] <fantasai> Florian: What's left?
# [06:18] <fantasai> dauwhe: footnotes and running head string-set
# [06:18] <fantasai> Florian: WD, yes, CR, less sure
# [06:18] <fantasai> RSOLVED: WD of GCPM
# [06:19] <fantasai> fantasai: sizing, need to review
# [06:19] <fantasai> s/RSOL/RESOL/
# [06:19] <fantasai> glazou: Lists?
# [06:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That needs dramatic cuts
# [06:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Need to trim a lot, then republish
# [06:19] <fantasai> glazou: positioned layout
# [06:19] <fantasai> Rossen: Ready to republish
# [06:19] <fantasai> glazou: Regions?
# [06:20] <fantasai> astearns: could repulbish
# [06:20] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
# [06:20] * Quits: ymasao_ (~masa@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [06:20] <fantasai> fantasai: can review to see if can republish, but has tons of issues open
# [06:20] <fantasai> glazou: Overflow 3
# [06:21] <fantasai> Florian: There's a mix of boviously usful things and experimental stuff in that draft.
# [06:21] <fantasai> Rossen: Can we republish?
# [06:21] <fantasai> Florian: For experimental things... doesn't feel WD-worthy
# [06:21] <fantasai> fantasai: It's an early WD, doesn't need to be stable to publish.
# [06:22] <fantasai> dbaron: Could split stuff into L4
# [06:22] <fantasai> Rossen: What's the holdup?
# [06:22] <fantasai> Florian: fragmentation , overflow pagination, not quite at the rest of the spec.
# [06:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Unless you're actively pushing for CR, don't need to cut things.
# [06:22] <fantasai> glazou: Font Loading 3
# [06:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: A few minor issues
# [06:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can drive that to CR
# [06:23] <fantasai> glazou: Scoping L1
# [06:23] <fantasai> fantasai: on the agenda today
# [06:23] <fantasai> glazou: MQ4?
# [06:23] <fantasai> Florian: Shoudl republish
# [06:23] <fantasai> ACTION Florian republish MQ4
# [06:23] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-740 - Republish mq4 [on Florian Rivoal - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:24] <fantasai> glazou: Non-element Selectors 1
# [06:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not ours, we were just the appropriate group
# [06:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: have no idea what implementations are supposed to exist for this
# [06:25] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [06:25] <fantasai> ACTION astearns figure out status of non-element selectors
# [06:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-741 - Figure out status of non-element selectors [on Alan Stearns - due 2015-11-03].
# [06:25] * Joins: masato_ (~masato@public.cloak)
# [06:25] <fantasai> glazou: selectors 4
# [06:26] <Rossen> Rossen: zcorpan, CSSOM editor Glenn Adams should be moved to the former editors section
# [06:26] <fantasai> fantasai: On my to-do list, right under scroll snap
# [06:26] <fantasai> issues
# [06:26] <fantasai> Topic: Scroll Snap
# [06:27] <dauwhe> Zakim, pick a victim
# [06:27] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose koji
# [06:27] <fantasai> Topic: Scroll Snap
# [06:28] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: not elika
# [06:28] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
# [06:28] * gsnedders FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!
# [06:28] <dbaron> Tab: Element-based issues
# [06:28] <dbaron> fantasai: yeah, the change proposal
# [06:28] <dbaron> Tab: Did we talk about the one about element-based snapping?
# [06:29] <dbaron> fantasai: Yeah, accepted. Want overlarge elements and independent ????.
# [06:29] <TabAtkins> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/
# [06:29] <dbaron> Dino: We are mostly happy with everything.
# [06:29] <dbaron> Dino: the new spec
# [06:29] <dbaron> Dino: A little confused about ... maybe like to defer 2d thing to next level, struggle to understand it.
# [06:29] <dbaron> Dino: the 2d snapping
# [06:30] <dbaron> Tab: There's double-1d-snapping and there's 2d-snapping. This is 2d snapping.
# [06:30] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-45
# [06:30] <dbaron> fantasai: This is issue 45. You can snapi in one axis or both axes. If you snap in both axes you might snap independently or simultaneously.
# [06:31] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0213.html
# [06:31] <dbaron> Tab: i.e., in the separate axis thing, 2 different elements could be snapped, one in the horizontal and one in the vertical
# [06:31] <dbaron> Tab: If you want only a single element to be snapped in both axes.
# [06:31] <dbaron> Florian: cities on a map
# [06:31] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/issues-by-issue#issue-67
# [06:31] <fantasai> (both issues here are relavant)
# [06:31] <dbaron> Tab: Or images in a photo gallery where you want one centered.
# [06:31] <dbaron> Dino: We want to push 2d to level 2.
# [06:31] <dbaron> Tab:The photostrip case was one of the original usecases from Matt. That needs 2d snapping to do well.
# [06:32] * Joins: kikuchiharuma (~kikuchiharuma@public.cloak)
# [06:32] <dbaron> fantasai: Aren't they all laid out in a line?
# [06:32] <dbaron> Dino: I thought 2d usecases were flowchart diagram
# [06:32] <dbaron> MaRakow: spreadsheet maybe?
# [06:32] <dbaron> Tab: No, that's 2x-1d-snapping
# [06:33] <dbaron> fantasai: In a strict grid, the 2 types are indistinguishable.
# [06:33] <dbaron> MaRakow: So you're splitting 2d scrollers into 2 categories?
# [06:33] <dbaron> TabAtkins: yes
# [06:33] <dbaron> TabAtkins: Once you have 1d snapping, doing it twice is not a problem, but actual 2d snapping is a separate use case.
# [06:33] <dbaron> Tab: I'm curious what was confusing to y'all (Dino) about it.
# [06:34] <dbaron> Dino: We'll have to give that as feedback.
# [06:34] <dbaron> Dino: We spent time with people in a room and couldn't work out...
# [06:34] <dbaron> hober: think it was editorial in nature
# [06:34] <dbaron> hober: The English prose.
# [06:34] * Quits: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:34] <dbaron> hober: please use small words
# [06:34] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:35] * Quits: fantasai (~fantasai@public.cloak) ("Lost terminal")
# [06:35] <dbaron> Tab: The proposal now, simplified from previous, is just 'scroll-snap-type' (proximity | mandatory | none) and what axis you're snapping to (x-axis, y-axis, point (2d))
# [06:35] * Joins: fantasai (~fantasai@public.cloak)
# [06:35] <dbaron> Tab: That way no weird confusing about mixing 1d and 2d
# [06:35] <dbaron> Tab: which way you snap is declared on container now
# [06:35] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [06:35] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/#snap-type
# [06:35] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:35] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-padding is padding ont he container to limit the area that you're consiering for snap stuff
# [06:35] <fantasai> scroll-snap-type: none | [ proximity | mandatory | trap ] || [ x | y | block | inline | both | point ]
# [06:36] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/#snap-padding
# [06:36] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:36] <fantasai> scroll-snap-padding: [ <length> | <percentage> ]{1,4}
# [06:36] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [06:36] <dbaron> Tab: Say you're doing a map and want to center cities on map, but have sidebar overlaid a bit. So centered on screen looks off-center, so set scroll-snap-padding to block out part that's sidebar'd.
# [06:36] <dbaron> Florian: Agree with that, but have issues yet to raise about that; will raise shortly.
# [06:36] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:36] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-scroll-snap/#scroll-snap-areas
# [06:36] <dbaron> fantasai: Agreed to drop scroll-snap-point-x/y
# [06:36] <fantasai> scroll-snap-area: [ border-box | margin-box ] || <length>{1,4}
# [06:37] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-areas allows ... ... ... , to put a margin top or bottom on the scroll snap area, to let you see what's past it.
# [06:37] <dbaron> Fantasai: Important thing is this gives you an area that you're snapping rather than a point. Advantage is for handling overlarge elements. Because UA knows that, when screen is smaller than area, it can allow the user to pan around that area. When you only have one point you're snapping to, you can align that point but can't see rest of element with mandatory snapping.
# [06:38] <dbaron> fantasai: Author hasn't said what stuff is to bevisible in snapped position.
# [06:38] <dbaron> fantasai: Thus we went to scroll-snap-area to set area and scroll-snap-align to align that area in the viewport.
# [06:38] * Quits: YusukeNakayaJP (~YusukeNakayaJP@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [06:38] <dbaron> MaRakow: The issue about splitting x and y into separate snap types?
# [06:38] <dbaron> fantasai: No, this is a different issue.
# [06:39] <dbaron> fantasai: B/c we're not using position syntax, the position syntax requires a position in both axes, but sometimes you want to snap only in the vertical axis; this syntax allows to specify wanting snapping only on the top edge but don't care about left/right sides, per box.
# [06:39] <dbaron> fantasai: Higher-level switch earlier: specify axis scroll container cares about snapping to. But on element level, element might not want to define snap position in both axes.
# [06:39] <dbaron> MaRakow: Diagram?
# [06:40] <dbaron> Tab: I can draw.
# [06:40] <dbaron> Florian: Is switching to element-based snapping the motivatiion for this entire rewrite?
# [06:40] <dbaron> Tab: correct
# [06:40] <dbaron> Tab: [Draws]
# [06:41] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [06:42] <dbaron> Tab: says he'll put the diagram, or similar, in the spec
# [06:42] <dbaron> [dbaron takes photo of diagram]
# [06:43] <fantasai> Tab explains what all the properties mean
# [06:43] <dbaron> Tab: [in response to MaRakow] if you want to center, set scroll-snap-align to center center; probably scroll-snap-area: border-box (initial value) is fine
# [06:43] <dbaron> MaRakow: How different from existing properties?
# [06:44] <dbaron> Tab: Translating the concepts well; big difference is that destination and coordinate are point-based which is difficult to talk about well when handling error cases (large elements)...
# [06:44] <dbaron> MaRakow: splitting X and Y?
# [06:44] <dbaron> Tab: Yes, splitting apart so only have to worry about one side if youwant. And it's talking about aligning rectangles in other rectangles, and CSS knows how to do that well and handle errors well.
# [06:45] <dbaron> Tab: Aligning rectangles is something easy to handle.
# [06:45] <dbaron> Florian: Maybe not obvious what to do, but you have the information that something is overflow. If you went by points, you don't know about overflow so you can't act on it.
# [06:46] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-padding and scroll-snap-area are to modify the default boundaries; defaults often good
# [06:47] <dbaron> Florian: With nested elements... tops are a identical points, but with areas, you can distinguish overflow, you have enough information to act on it.
# [06:47] * dbaron thinks Florian was repeating what was already said
# [06:47] * Quits: Chris_Lilley (clilley@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:47] <dbaron> Tab: an example was blog posts, where you want to show a bit of the previous one
# [06:47] * Quits: AndreyR (~AndreyR@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:47] <dbaron> Tab: leave scroll-snap-padding: initial value
# [06:48] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-type proximity y (or could omit y if only scrollable in one axis)
# [06:48] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:48] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-area: border-box 20px 0 0 0
# [06:48] <dbaron> Tab: scroll-snap-align: start
# [06:48] * Quits: nulltask (~nulltask@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [06:49] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [06:49] <dbaron> MaRakow: scroll-snap-align is what's saying that it's the top edge that's snapping
# [06:49] <dbaron> Tab: yes
# [06:49] * Quits: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [06:49] <dbaron> Tab: so you could just say scroll-snap-area: 20px 0 0 0;
# [06:50] <dbaron> fantasai: or might want 20px on both edges... if you're only snapping to one edge, easier to drop 0s
# [06:50] <dbaron> Tab: [response to Dino] scroll-snap-area: margin-box 4px grows the area by 4px outside the margin
# [06:50] <dbaron> Rossen: used margin? collapsed margin?
# [06:51] <dbaron> Tab: youstill have a well-defined margin-box with margin-collapsing
# [06:51] <dbaron> fantasai: same as you use for shapse
# [06:51] <fantasai> dbaron: Shapes happen on things that don't collapse margins...
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# [06:52] <dbaron> Alan: can use margin-box on shapes for masking
# [06:52] <dbaron> Tab: so maybe need to define it
# [06:52] <dbaron> Tab: border-box most common; don't recall why we had margin-box
# [06:52] <dbaron> Rossen: try to drop it
# [06:53] <dbaron> Tab: drop box kewyord entirely, just use the offsets
# [06:53] <dbaron> fantasai: sounds good
# [06:53] * Quits: hyojin (~hyojin@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [06:53] <dbaron> RESOLUTION: drop the box keyword
# [06:53] <dbaron> Rossen: so... not having 2 competing specs?
# [06:53] <dbaron> Tab: yes, getting to that
# [06:53] <dbaron> Tab: so we have a spec that we think is ready for WD, we even have a DoC for CR
# [06:54] <dbaron> fantasai: This in an unofficial draft.
# [06:54] <dbaron> fantasai: We made the changes to propdef tables, took all text from Matt's spec and incorporated into this spec
# [06:55] <dbaron> fantasai: Added all additional things based on issues in issues list
# [06:55] <dbaron> fantasai: we went and addressed all issues; have a DoC
# [06:55] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:55] <dbaron> fantasai: Spec now is different in the ways just discussed, and a superset of text in both specs
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# [06:55] <dbaron> fantasai: This is effectively the merged spec; we'd want to use this as the master copy, but want Matt to look in depth and make sure it's correct, and keep working together on it.
# [06:56] <dbaron> Tab: roc is fine with doing this, we (Chrome) are fine with it; haven't heard from Apple though previously think smfr said fine to switch over, so the issue is clarification from Apple, and from IE if this is all right
# [06:56] <dbaron> MaRakow: a lot to take in here
# [06:56] <dbaron> Tab: We were told in no uncertain terms that if we wanted to change it had to be quick
# [06:56] <dbaron> Tab: by Apple and Mozilla
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# [06:57] <dbaron> Tab: We went through 2 years of mailing list feedback, went trhough and addressed all feedback
# [06:57] <dbaron> MaRakow: Other large issues other than large element?
# [06:58] <dbaron> Tab: Anything that says "Accepted by TF" is stuff that wase addressed only in our draft and not in yours
# [06:58] <dbaron> Tab: MaRakow, we'd be happy to go through them with you
# [06:58] <dbaron> fantasai: Many were fallout of switching to this model; others were editorial or minor fixes
# [06:58] <dbaron> fantasai: The major issues were handful accepted by switching to this model.
# [06:59] <dbaron> fantasai: Solves overly large elements, solves issues with syntax, issues with bad naming of destination/coordinate, axis-specific scrolling.
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# [07:00] <dbaron> TabAtkins: we know 2 browsers fine with this. MS implementation fine with the spec since we agreed to drop x/y and remaining pieces in MS implementation are subset of this.
# [07:00] <dbaron> TabAtkins: Is the WG fine with this and can we accept this as the scroll snap model?
# [07:00] <dbaron> Alan: How long will it take for you to come up with answer?
# [07:00] <dbaron> MaRakow: Can talk with Tab and fantasai and find out what's changed here.
# [07:01] <dbaron> Dino: We already gave our feedback
# [07:01] <dbaron> hober: if people want this to go to CR soon...
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# [07:02] <fantasai> [meeting is breaking up]
# [07:02] <fantasai> [fantasai wants to know whether we're switching over, pending MaRakow's approval]
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# [07:03] <fantasai> [Rossen is concerned that this is a major change and wants everyone to discuss it more]
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# [07:03] <fantasai> [dbaron notes that a lot of feedback wasn't handled, and implementers, under pressure to implement somehting, implemented something they didnt like that was what was in the spec previously, which was a problem]
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# [07:04] <fantasai> [meeting closed to dicuss further, MaRakow to discuss changes with Tab and fantasai to understand them better]
# [07:04] <fantasai> [revisit topic later]
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# [07:06] <astearns> Shadow DOM discussion is happening in the Web Platform room - down the escalator and to the left
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# [07:17] <dbaron> what's the IRC for the shadow dom meeting?
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# [07:18] <dbaron> #webapps
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# [07:19] <fantasai> Florian: How do we make mobile browsers not do Viewport Voodoo and just display the page like CSS says to?
# [07:19] <fantasai> (like, currently, what's the best syntax for this)
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# [07:23] <Florian> fantasai, you do "@viewport { width: auto; }"
# [07:24] <Florian> (which is the initial value, but not the UA stylesheet value in mobile browsers)
# [07:24] <MaRakow> in the Edge implementation it's @-ms-viewport { width: device-width; }
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# [07:27] <Florian> MaRakow: this is not a valid value in the spec. Also, it would cause problems on desktop: you want window-width (which is called auto, module details not relevant here), not device width.
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# [07:32] <fantasai> Florian: What works right now?
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# [07:35] <zcorpan> q?
# [07:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:36] <gsnedders> what were the tests in before hg? svn?
# [07:37] * astearns man, I was going to make a *joke* about needing more semicolons
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# [07:38] <gsnedders> yeah, svn.
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# [07:44] <JonathanC> Anyone read my proposed DataSheets? https://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/ ? need some input here - please, if anyone can spare some time
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# [07:45] <MaRakow> fantasai: viewport meta tag is the only thing that works across all phones
# [07:45] <MaRakow> currently at least
# [07:46] <MaRakow> you might have some limited success with MobileOptimized or HandheldFriendly if you're looking for a challenge though
# [07:47] <plinss> gsnedders: and before svn, they were in CVS, the repo history was preserved all the way back
# [07:47] <MaRakow> Florian: we have device-width referring to the window-width kind of -- though it's modified for base zoom and user zoom setting, etc.
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# [07:47] <MaRakow> aww
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# [07:48] <gsnedders> plinss: thx
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# [08:00] <fantasai> MaRakow: okay... what's the appropriate meta then?
# [08:00] <fantasai> MaRakow: I want to suggest to the W3C webmaster to add it to the specs
# [08:00] <fantasai> :)
# [08:03] <MaRakow> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1">
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# [08:14] <astearns> reconvening to talk about css-animations issues, if we can get a quorum to come back to the room
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# [08:16] * glazou you guys have missed a very nice direct attack from alex russell against the CSS WG _on stage_ during AC meeting
# [08:18] * astearns the substance of which was?
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# [08:23] <tantek> why did variables take so long?
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# [08:24] <birtles> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Oct/0222.html
# [08:25] <birtles> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/css-animations-issues-list
# [08:26] <astearns> (notes will be taken on the etherpad as we go)
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# [08:28] <dbaron> G was relative to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0132.html
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# [08:32] <dbaron> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/41
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# [08:40] * gsnedders just send long email to public-css-testsuite which is mostly asking for opinions
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# [08:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Ah, yeah, I was planning to discuss adding a meta-viewport with you later today.
# [08:41] <TabAtkins> JonathanC: There's nowhere near enough detail in that proposal for us to understand what's actually being proposed.
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# [08:45] <glazou> astearns: alex russell claiming we rejected his ideas
# [08:45] <glazou> astearns: and basically we did not work on stuff that were important to google
# [08:46] <glazou> astearns: I replied, of course ; as I told you, attending AC meeting at TPAC does matter and one of two CSS WG co-chairs at least should always attend
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# [08:46] <TabAtkins> glazou: You're in public IRC
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# [08:47] <glazou> thanks
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# [08:58] <JonathanC> TabAtkins: hi. did you see the lionk http://www.developer.web.za/News/Read/4036/datasheets-a-proposed-w3c-working-group ?
# [08:58] <JonathanC> *link
# [08:59] <TabAtkins> No, I only saw what was in the CG proposal.
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# [09:00] <JonathanC> it has a coding example as well: with some proposed DSS language features working
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# [09:03] <slightlyoff> glazou: happy to correct your misrepresentation here or someplace else
# [09:04] <glazou> fine, but you should really stop your "csswg sucks" leitmotiv, it's a bit painful after so many years
# [09:06] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0373.html
# [09:07] <fantasai> tantek: It took so long because for awhile Tab put off edits, and then for awhile ChrisL put off transition requesting, and the combined time was one year
# [09:07] <fantasai> tantek: It might've gone back and forth once or twice, but I think that's what happened. Nobody was sure whose turn it was to do something mabye :)
# [09:08] <tantek> fantasai: that's even sadder than the reasons offered in the meeting :(
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# [09:11] <fantasai> dbaron: "Interpolate as:" ?
# [09:11] <dbaron> fantasai, no, "Animation type:" or something like that
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# [09:14] * fantasai liks Interpolate as, makes it clearer that it applies to transitions
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# [09:17] * gsnedders plinss: are you still around SORA anywhere?
# [09:17] * plinss gsnedders: in the AC meeting
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# [09:20] * gsnedders plinss: oh right, of course
# [09:22] * gsnedders plinss: I want to talk about Shepard at some point with you, but I guess we can do that tomorrow or later in the week at some point
# [09:23] * plinss gsnedders: whenever you want, I’m here all week
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# [13:53] <dbaron> Tab's whiteboard drawing from today's meeting: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2015Oct/att-0062/img_0237-Meeting-Whiteboard-CROPPED-CONTRAST.jpg
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# [23:43] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Am I crazy, or do we need to insert a comment between a <number-token> and a % <delim-token>, and that's not reflected in the Syntax table?
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# [23:51] * SimonSapin looks
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# [23:52] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: you're not crazy
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> kk. Looks like we don't use the ? column anymore, I'll just replace it with %.
# [23:53] <SimonSapin> And I'm not confident it's the only bug in this table. We should fuzz it or something
# [23:53] <SimonSapin> Anymore? When did that change?
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> When we dropped the unicode-range token, I presume?
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# [23:55] <SimonSapin> fantasai TabAtkins: was it css-align that's blocked on review? Should we run a group review today in the style of flexbox workshops?
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# [23:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that one. Sounds decent.
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# Session Close: Wed Oct 28 00:00:00 2015

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