/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-12-09 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 09 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:17] <gsnedders> If anyone wants to pay expenses for me to go to the Sydney F2F so we can try and get browsers running the tests, drop me an email. Bit much for me to really pay my own way, given flights are over 1k GBP…
# [00:18] <gsnedders> (Or if anyone wants to pay me to do this prod me.)
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# [17:47] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/09-css-irc
# [17:48] * astearns changes topic to '2015-12-09 conference call https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0116.html'
# [17:49] * Ms2ger whoa, a meeting in the middle of the day, what is this witchcraft
# [17:50] * astearns is somewhat unsure of what time of day it actually is - just flew from Europe to west coast US
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# [17:58] <dael> Present+ dael
# [17:58] <glazou> Present+ glazou
# [17:58] <astearns> present+ astearns
# [17:58] <myles> present+ myles
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# [18:00] <antonp> Present+ antonp
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# [18:00] <plinss> present+ plinss
# [18:01] <tgraham> present+ tgraham
# [18:01] <jeff_xu> present+ jeff_xu
# [18:01] * dael plinss it looks like the logbot has dropped from the channel.
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# [18:01] * dael thanks plinss!
# [18:01] * plinss np
# [18:02] <fantasai> present+ fantasai
# [18:02] * hober is IRC-only today.
# [18:02] <glazou> plinss: was that just a question of /invite ?
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# [18:02] <zcorpan> present+ zcorpan
# [18:02] <smfr> present+ smfr
# [18:02] <plinss> glazou, no, the bot needed to be restarted on the csswg.org server
# [18:03] <fantasai> zcorpan, did you catch the fragments getClientRect issue?
# [18:03] <glazou> plinss: ok
# [18:03] <TabAtkins> present+ tabatkins
# [18:03] <zcorpan> fantasai: yeah, will fix
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# [18:04] <dael> astearns: It's 5 after, we should start
# [18:04] <dael> astearns: Any last minute items?
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# [18:04] <dael> glazou: I sent one to the ML 20 min ago.
# [18:04] <gregwhitworth> present+
# [18:04] <dael> astearns: About end of month meetings?
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [18:05] <dael> astearns: That would be interesting thing to have people add to IRC, but we'll have to use the ML since quite a few peoplee xpressed regrets.
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# [18:05] <fantasai> +1 I'm free
# [18:05] <dael> astearns: Can anyone who would like a meeting on 23 Dec put +1 in IRC
# [18:05] <bradk> -1
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> -1, totally gonna be with family that week
# [18:05] * dael +1 I'm available
# [18:05] <gregwhitworth> -1
# [18:05] <zcorpan> -1
# [18:05] <glazou> +1 doable
# [18:05] <hober> -1
# [18:05] <dael> astearns: Like I said, I'll put this to the private ML too.
# [18:05] <glazou> -1 for 30th
# [18:05] <dael> astearns: And now for 30 Dec. Who is available?
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> +1 for the 30th
# [18:06] * dael +1
# [18:06] <fantasai> +1 I'm free for 30th
# [18:06] <zcorpan> -1
# [18:06] <astearns> +1 for 30th
# [18:06] <bradk> -0.5
# [18:06] <dael> astearns: Okay.
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# [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: Do we want to do a doodle?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I can set one up.
# [18:06] <hober> present+ rniwa
# [18:07] <dael> smfr: Can we move item 9 to the beginning? I have to drop
# [18:07] <dael> astearns: Sure.
# [18:07] <astearns> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0080.html
# [18:07] <dael> Topic: interop issues in border-image
# [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: Chrome has a bug where we'll honor border-image even if your border-style is set to none.
# [18:08] <fantasai> http://doodle.com/poll/v5ekdkysazywrha8#table
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: That violates the spec and causes problems for other browsers. I think calendar and gmail rely on it so edge copied and I think FF is considering. We're bugging internal to fix this, but does anyone thinkthis is so important we can't wait a bit to get the internals to fix?
# [18:09] <dael> gregwhitworth: It's good to get it fixed, but no rush. It would be great to see more equal, but sooner or later we're going to be where we can't do web compat.
# [18:09] <dael> gregwhitworth: Is webkit still working toward the change?
# [18:09] <dael> smfr: Webkit is same as blink
# [18:09] <dael> gregwhitworth: And will you guys change?
# [18:09] <dael> smfr: I think so, but this is two high sites broken. I'm worried there's a change of ones that will break.
# [18:09] <fantasai> s/change of/long tail of/
# [18:10] <dael> gregwhitworth: We had this a long time. It was the google properties that forced our hand. I don't think there's too much of a long tail, but maybe FF is aware of more sites.
# [18:10] <gregdavis> present+ gregdavis
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: So we have bugs on gmail and calendar and we'll make sure there's pressure on them to fix. There might be others, but those two big prop won't rely on it.
# [18:10] * Rossen_away is now known as Rossen
# [18:10] <dael> smfr: The patch that fixed the bug in webkit did have to change a lot of tests since a lot had been written to assume the broken data.
# [18:11] <dael> smfr: I think webkit would be willing to change behavior once the google prop. are fixed. We'll see how it goes.
# [18:11] <Rossen> present+
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Related note, I think Boris was complaining on twitter that FF was having to impl a lot of -webkit because of the broken google properties. Can we get that to be a priority to ix to never code webkit specific when there's spec? How high would that have to go to be on the to do list next year.
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know, but I can get Alex Russel on the case.
# [18:12] <gregwhitworth> Alex Russell to the rescue
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Okay. If you need more info ping Boris.
# [18:12] <zcorpan> border-image https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/css/timeline/popularity/43 with border-style:none https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/1026 (but this counter hasn't hit stable yet iirc)
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: Can I suggest when impl violate specs for google prop they whitelist it for just those google prop and not hte web in general?
# [18:13] <dael> gregwhitworth: It sounds like the CV list hell we're in at times. All the sudden you're enabling...you're going to enable so you might as well do it for everyone.
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# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: We have site specfic code for when we had something we wanted to change and a big site would break.
# [18:14] <dael> astearns: But when it's something like this where we're expecting the change in the google properties, we would get more data if we whitelist them and move everyone else.
# [18:14] <dael> gregwhitworth: So should this be on the agenda for a call in early Jan to see where we're at?
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure what the group can do, but if you're impl something for a google prop, let us googlers know.
# [18:14] <dael> gregwhitworth: But for this thing tell us where things are.
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah, that's cool.
# [18:15] <dael> astearns: So we're in a bit of a waiting game. Let's move one.
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# [18:15] <dael> Topic: align-items propagation to align-self on abspos
# [18:15] <dael> s/one/on
# [18:15] <astearns> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0018.html
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# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: align-items in flex and grid sets to propigate to align unles syou set to align-self. When we broadened align and justify to work on everything, we want them to work on for ex abspos, but we have to deal witht he default of abspos right now
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# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: The cleanest way to do it is make the default not take from align items so the alignment behavior on a container doesn't mess with abspos, but you can align explicitly. This is a minor change from flexbox, but Christian who broght this up is fine with it.
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# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: If you have an abspos whose conaining block is flex it will no longer be effected by align items.
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: Which flexbox only has an effect on the static pos.
# [18:17] <dbaron> ok, seems the wifi here isn't good enough for a SIP call
# [18:17] <dbaron> so I think I won't be able to make the call
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: The flexbox doesn't have to be the contianing block, but it has to be the static position.
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a big confluence to make this happen. If there's any concerns, speak up. We've made the change.
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Also, we're not even interop on this case yet.
# [18:18] <dael> astearns: Do you want a resolution?
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Flexbox is mature enough that any change of this magnitude needs a resolution. We're trying to be responcible.
# [18:18] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0018.html
# [18:18] <dael> astearns: Any objections?
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: The resoning is in the above e-mail.
# [18:19] <dael> astearns: Seems reasonable.
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept the change for issue 5
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: Intrinsic cross-sizes of flex items
# [18:19] <astearns> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0055.html
# [18:19] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0055.html
# [18:19] <dbaron> ok, actually joined by phone -- I think I'm muted
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can close on this. It's finding the min and max content size of a column flex container with multiple lines. You have a column flex with a max height, they wrap until you run out of items.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: There's two issues. One is that when you're trying to figure out what ist he intrinisic size, how for you calc? And does the flex contianer wrap one column or all.
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# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: Wrapping the first doesn't make sense, you're asking it to be shrink wrapped, but FF and blink are not currently wrapping all the columns, stuff overflows.
# [18:20] <gregwhitworth> Blink wrap first item, Gecko first column, Edge around all columns
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: IE does the calc correctly so we get good results.
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# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: The other problem is how do you find the size of these columns, the width and height, given there's interdependencies. If you want to do 100% correct you have to put it in, size, put in another, see if it fits, resize etc.
# [18:21] <Rossen> we aligned to the Chrome behavior for Edge in the min-intrinsic case due to compat
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# [18:21] <Rossen> we're not opposed to revert back to the IE behavior though
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: All browsers are doing a heuristic that gives you a sensible answer. They find the largest intrinic size and fit everything into that space. So if you have a really long word that controls allt he columns, they'll all be that wide. It's pretty good for most cases.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: It would be good to have a better answer, but this works pretty well. We're okay putting it in the spec, but it's a heuristic.
# [18:23] * glazou adenilson we already discussed your agenda item at beginning of the call
# [18:23] <adenilson> glazou: ouch!
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: That's the discussion happening now. We need to hear from more impl. I don't htink we can resolve on the call because at least Christian is upset with our proposal. MS is fine with it, so I don't know what to do with that discussion.
# [18:23] * adenilson got stuck in the traffic.
# [18:23] <dael> astearns: Is the heuristic that you would be consitering putting in the spec detailed enough on the ML for people to evaluate?
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. It's in the message in the agenda.
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: It says the approximation.
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Our question is is the approximation sufficently useful for us to specify and can we come up with something better?
# [18:24] <dael> astearns: Are there people willing to talk about this on the call, or should we go back to the ML?
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: We need to close the issue soon, so manditory yea/nay next meeting?
# [18:24] <dael> astearns: Sounds like a good plan
# [18:25] <dael> astearns: We'll put this on next week's agenda to give impl time to come up with an opinion. They can either express on the ML or get put on the spot next call.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Pref. the ML.
# [18:25] <dael> Topic: justify-content: auto -> start / stretch (on grid / flex items)
# [18:25] <astearns> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0097.html
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# [18:26] <Rossen> fantasai, can you share the test cases please?
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Auto computing to start or stretch if you're grid or not. There's a lot of issues dbaron had about things computing to things. This one is justify content needs to default ot stretch for grids but start for everything else.
# [18:26] <fantasai> Rossen, for the flexbox issue? Sure
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Previously it computed to start or stretch, now it just stays as auto and acts like start or stretch at layout time. Is that okay?
# [18:26] <Rossen> fantasai, yup
# [18:27] <fantasai> Summary of all the alignment issues:
# [18:27] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015OctDec/0143.html
# [18:27] * bradk rubber stamps
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Larger issue...is anyone willing to say anything about align spec, rubber stamp us, or take a week to review?
# [18:27] <fantasai> Tab and I just went through a bunch of Box Alignment issues. There were
# [18:27] <fantasai> a lot of concerns about values computing to other values, with the
# [18:27] <fantasai> suggestion being to just have used-time equivalence.
# [18:27] <fantasai> The cases brought up were:
# [18:27] <fantasai> * justify-content: auto -> start / stretch (on grid / flex items)
# [18:27] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0097.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> * justify-content: stretch -> flex-start (on flex items)
# [18:27] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Nov/0327.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> * 'left' and 'right' -> 'start' (when operating in the wrong axis)
# [18:27] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Nov/0280.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Nov/0284.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> * 'flex-start' and 'flex-end' -> 'start' and 'end' (on non-flex-items)
# [18:27] <dael> dbaron: I'm happy with changes that compute less. I haven't looked in detail
# [18:27] <fantasai> [rough corrollary to the previous item]
# [18:27] <fantasai> * align/justify-items: auto -> start/stretch (depending on 'display')
# [18:27] <fantasai> #2 in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0061.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> Though we don't have a strong position, we're in favor of making these
# [18:27] <fantasai> changes so long as the WG approves.
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: Anyone else have an opinion?
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do a final agreement next week so dbaron can review explicitly and anyone else that cares can.
# [18:28] <dael> astearns: Is css-align at the point where we need resolution on these things? Or can you make the changes and people review with time.
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# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: They're changes in behavior to flexbox and grid in several cases. Minor where you used to see one keyword and now you get auto, but still.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: If it was internal, no, but this effects flex and grid.
# [18:29] <gregwhitworth> I'll take a look at it as well
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: We want someone that isn't us to review.
# [18:29] <dael> astearns: gregwhitworth will take a look.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: mmmkay
# [18:29] <dael> astearns: dbaron will you have time in the next week to look at these changes?
# [18:29] <dael> dbaron: Possibly. It's hard to know.
# [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron, they're summarized above
# [18:30] <dael> astearns: Does that mean TabAtkins and fantasai that items 3-6 are all in that state?
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: And 7
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: There's one issue we didn't cover.
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: Where we renamed to normal.
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: Ah, that didn't show up.
# [18:30] <dael> astearns: Link?
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: Let me see if I can find it.
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It did show up in an e-mail.
# [18:31] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0061.html
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: I think I found it ^
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: To go over it, TabAtkins and I were going through computed computation. We noticed the auto on align/justify was get this value, but in other places it was do magic.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: We added the content keyword to do the magic last time, but we'd like to avoid it in align. So we'd like to rename auto to normal where it's do the magic. The magic is depending on display pick a proper default. And then remove some computation that doesn't need to be there.
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# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That's our proposal. Keep auto on align-self and where we have a new auto that means do the right thing for the display, change that keyword to normal.
# [18:33] * smfr has to drop off
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: Thoughts?
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# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: Good idea, bad idea? We think TabAtkins and fantasai are always right?
# [18:33] <dael> dbaron: Is there a more specific name then normal?
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: I don't know. THe keyword means pick a default alignment appropriate to this display type.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Some are start, some are stretch.
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: It also means don't make me a BFC for the blocks.
# [18:34] <fantasai> (For align-content)
# [18:34] <SteveZ> What about "displaytype" as the name
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: If anyone can come up with a more descriptive name, great. Normal has been in a few other prop for similar reasons so it seemed appropriate there.
# [18:34] <fantasai> It's not a display type, it's an alignment
# [18:34] <dbaron> it feels a little like there isn't a philosophy behind what's 'normal' and what's 'auto'
# [18:34] <dael> astearns: SteveZ mentioned one on IRC.
# [18:34] * bradk doesn't feel strongly without delving into it more.
# [18:34] <fantasai> align/justify-self: auto | normal | start | end | etc.
# [18:34] <fantasai> align/justify-items: normal | start | end | etc.
# [18:34] <fantasai> align/justify-content: normal | start | end | etc.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It wouldn't work because it's an alignment value. Ther prop would look like ^
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yeah, there really isn't. :/
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# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It will eventually...the used value will be start or end or stretch, not a display type. Which it is depends on the display type, but it's the condition not the effect.
# [18:35] <dael> astearns: It seems the purpose to normal is something we use auto for in other cases.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: We can't use auto because auto is taken.
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Unless we're willing to do a compat break on flexbox and change its inital value.
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: I think that might break stuff, bad idea.
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I would believe you if you said it broke something.
# [18:36] <gregwhitworth> I want as few changes to flex as possible, each change seems to break stuff :/
# [18:36] * fantasai is pretty sure this would break stuff
# [18:36] <SteveZ> What about align: by-displaytype OR for-displaytype
# [18:36] <dael> astearns: It sounds to me like this change is in a different catagory than the list of 3-7 on the agenda.
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: They're related, but that's why we pulled it out.
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# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: So there's a question of what do we call it, but there's also a question as to if the keyword is a good idea.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We can't not have it.
# [18:37] <dbaron> I think it's good to expose the behavior.
# [18:37] <gregwhitworth> I agree with the keyword since it seems to be necessary
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: We can resolve ont he keyword, call it normal for now, change the name if someone comes up with better.
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: dbaron TabAtkins and I think it's a good idea. Anyone think this isn't a good idea?
# [18:38] <SteveZ> I think the idea is good, but the name is bad
# [18:38] <dael> RESOLVED: add the 'normal' keyword with bikeshed pending.
# [18:38] <dael> astearns: To close on 3-7, we have at least one person, maybe another, who will look at the changes. We will take all of them as a group on a future call.
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: % resolution in the presence of min-size: auto
# [18:39] <astearns> issue #3 on https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0038.html
# [18:39] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
# [18:39] * astearns good
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: This is an issue where min-size: auto creates an issue wehre every flex item is intriniscly size. So % resolution won't work by default. We raised this and decided to ask the impl what to do because ther two otpions are we do two pass layout or they don't resolve.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: We did a call with MS and Blink and Moz impl. For this one they can do two-pass layout. So that's what we put in the spec. So we wanted to bring it back to the WG to say this is what you want to do and resolve officially.
# [18:40] <dael> astearns: Is there a summary of the impl convo?
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, I thought I linked it. Let me get it out of the DoC
# [18:41] <dael> astearns: You linked to some minutes.
# [18:41] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0014.html
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: There it is^
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: I did do the wrong link in the e-mail. Sorry.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: If people need more time because I did the wrong link, that's fine.
# [18:42] <dael> astearns: Would anyone like more time to look into this?
# [18:42] <dael> astearns: silence = no. Does anyone obj to resolving on this now?
# [18:42] <dbaron> I guess I'm a little worried about performance
# [18:42] <gregwhitworth> :)
# [18:42] <dbaron> But it sounds like dholbert was ok with it, I guess?
# [18:42] <dael> astearns: We have dbaron saying he's a little worried.
# [18:42] <gregwhitworth> dbaron, yes
# [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron, yeah
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: We can discuss it with...urm...dholbert.
# [18:43] <dael> dbaron: That's fine. I'm still worried about the perf here, but it sounds like this isn't a big change the perf characteristics. Is that the case?
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: We believe so. In most cases it'll optimize away. If the min-size doesn't control layout you won't need another pass
# [18:43] <dbaron> ok
# [18:44] <dael> RESOLVED: accept the change
# [18:44] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20150514#issue-3
# [18:44] <fantasai> (above issue)
# [18:45] <dael> astearns: adnilson joined...are you okay with waiting to get the Google properties to move off of this issue and having the browsers change? (Topic 9)
# [18:45] <dael> adenilson: Yes, totally
# [18:45] <astearns> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0113.html
# [18:45] <dael> Topic: scoping @font-face
# [18:45] <adenilson> dael: :-)
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: I've been talking about this for a bit. This sets font-family to foo. It inherits down, and inherits into a shadow tree. That's fine. If the component that doesn't know what's going on outside itself clashes with a font name where the outer page font face is the same as a system font, the componet accidently grabs the wrong font
# [18:46] <ChrisLilley> q+
# [18:46] * Zakim sees ChrisL, ChrisLilley on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: We've restricted shadow DOM from having these odd things before. We're restricted the outer pollution, but CSS contrstruct that create a lobal name have the same problem. Regions could be really confusing where things do a total page break.
# [18:47] <gregwhitworth> this really sounds like we need better css encapsulation in regards to shadow trees
# [18:47] <dael> ChrisLilley: I don't believe...where you said it inherits isn't a natural consiquence. That should be a 1d thing. It shouldn't flow the other way. If the component decalers it doesn't effec the outer.
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# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. THe 1d flow is the hard part. Flowing into the shadow is the problimatic part. this is related to macro hygine issues where you have variables in a macro that need to not interfere with user declared. The only solution is re-write the font name, mantian mapping of the original names to the re-write, but prevent accidental colisions between inside and outside names
# [18:49] <gregwhitworth> so foo becomes shadow-foo vs global-foo?
# [18:50] <gregwhitworth> This sounds feasible
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: If the outer has foo, whatever crosses into the shadow is something def. unique. Then if the shadow uses foo, it wouldn't select the outer font face. If they wanted to they could look at the inherited value, but it prevents accidental. And we would do that for anything that declares a global name. If they're exposed through inheritence we'd have a seret mapping.
# [18:50] <dael> ChrisLilley: That seems to make the basic case harder where you want to use the same as the outer. yOu have to do the import yourself.
# [18:50] * Rossen is now known as Rossen_away
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: By default in heritence still works. The name you still with be a guar. unique name, but will refer tot he correct font.
# [18:50] <dael> ChrisLilley: Okay. ANd the same as variables?
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Variables are a communication channel so they're staying the same.
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: It's important to keep that.
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [18:51] <glazou> exactly what astearns said
# [18:51] <dael> astearns: I was going to say the same. If using inheritence wasn't an option for a component and they did want to get something in, they would have variables as the vehicle.
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, if they really want to, they could smuggle something in...though you owuldn't want to have that...
# [18:52] <dael> gregwhitworth: So if I'm an ad on your page, using web components, and I want to inherit your fonts, I don't know your variables.
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: using the inherited font keeps working. We just do a re-write and have a name mapping.
# [18:52] <dael> gregwhitworth: Okay, cool.
# [18:53] <rniwa> q+
# [18:53] * Zakim sees ChrisL, ChrisLilley, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <dael> dbaron: I'm confused. It seems a little like instead of unique names you would use a function that refers to a name in the parent scope
# [18:53] <dbaron> s/I'm confused.//
# [18:53] <dbaron> s/would/could/
# [18:53] <dbaron> s/$/Though I'm not sure which is better./
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: We'd have to stack them to know which scope, but it's an alternative. We just want a normal font name to never collide. Function achieve that and that's fine too. It takes a parent fucntion and evaluates a keyword there and nest to go a few scopes up.
# [18:54] <dael> rniwa: Is this a proposal? I'm confused what we're discussing. Is this a proposal for scoping or...?
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a concrete prop on the ML. I just sent one...it's in the agenda.
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: You can read that for more details.
# [18:55] <dael> astearns: For font-family prop are you making the entire prop value transformed or individual components?
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Indiv. components that refer to a font-face rule. The issue is font-face rules not accessible. See what are @font-face names and re-write those.
# [18:55] * glazou needs to run before end of the call; bye people
# [18:55] <gregwhitworth> glazou, by
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# [18:55] <dael> astearns: Are they user-idents? Can we spec that that its' all user idents?
# [18:56] <gregwhitworth> s/by/bye
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# [18:56] <dbaron> q+
# [18:56] * Zakim sees ChrisL, ChrisLilley, rniwa, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:56] * dbaron ack rniwa
# [18:56] * Zakim sees ChrisL, ChrisLilley, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: I've have to check but prob? If it's an enumeration of things that are defined...yes, in general custom idents is what we'd want to rely on if we're defining a global thing.
# [18:56] <ChrisLilley> ack ch
# [18:56] * Zakim sees ChrisL, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <ChrisLilley> ack ch
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# [18:56] <dael> dbaron: One thing that seems odd is making computed value of font-fanily depend on font-face rules which it currently doesn't. THat seems messy.
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what it would do, but I don't see a way around it.
# [18:57] <dael> dbaron: The idea of the function that gets the name from the scope might be a way around it.
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Ooooh...that would work. You could put it on system fonts and it would be the same name, but that's fine. That works for me.
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: I like that.
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# [18:58] <gregwhitworth> sounds good
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's go with that. If that sounds okay I'll write up a formal proposal for the list and make sure it's applicable to everything that matters.
# [18:58] <dael> astearns: Sounds like a good step to me.
# [18:58] <dael> rniwa: For the function, how to we solve the shadow dom, does it solve that?
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's do odd details on the ML with concrete examples, but that's a good idea.
# [18:58] <dael> myles: And you'd still re-write, but with a function.
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: And we'd be able to do it unreservidely. We re-write all of them to refer to the parent scope
# [18:59] <dael> astearns: Alright, let's go with that. We're at the top of the hour.
# [18:59] <dael> astearns: Thanks everyone.
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# [19:00] <TabAtkins> "font-family: my-custom-font, Comic Sans MS, sans-serif;" would inherit into a shadow as "font-family: outer-scope("my-custom-font"), outer-scope("Comic Sans MS"), sans-serif;"
# [19:00] <dbaron> although this would need some way to account for multiple nested scopes
# [19:00] <dbaron> not sure if nesting outer-scope(outer-scope()) is the best way to do that
# [19:00] <myles> dbaron: it seems natural to have nested function calls
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# [19:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I presume "font-family: outer-scope(foo);" would inherit into a further shadow as either "outer-scope(outer-scope(foo))", or we can give an integer value like "outer-scope(foo, 2)"
# [19:01] <myles> (maybe the function name should be "../") (jk)
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# [19:01] <TabAtkins> This isn't an ergonomics thing - people generally shouldn't be writing these themself.
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> It's just a variable hygiene thing.
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# [19:02] <astearns> someone will see the functions returned in computed values and start using them directly
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> Sure, and that's fine.
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> I'm just saying we don't have to *optimize* for direct use.
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# [19:11] <slightlyoff> Yes, I can prioritize this, but be aware it's not trivial.
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# [19:18] <TabAtkins> slightlyoff: Yeah, the *particular* issue we talked about today (and have bugs for) is trivial, but the general case is def hard.
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# [23:29] <fantasai> plh: What's the status of css-break and css-writing-modes?
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 10 00:00:00 2015

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