/irc-logs / w3c / #fx / 2012-03-05 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Mar 05 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #fx
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# [22:06] <ed> trackbot, start telcon
# [22:06] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
# [22:06] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
# [22:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc
# [22:06] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
# [22:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [22:06] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
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# [22:06] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3983
# [22:06] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
# [22:06] <trackbot> Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
# [22:06] <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2012
# [22:07] <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0146.html
# [22:07] <ed> chair: ed
# [22:07] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
# [22:07] <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
# [22:07] <Zakim> +??P0
# [22:08] <ed> Zakim, ??P0 is me
# [22:08] <Zakim> +ed; got it
# [22:08] * shepazu zakim, code?
# [22:08] * Zakim saw 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, shepazu
# [22:08] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
# [22:08] <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
# [22:09] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
# [22:09] <Zakim> +smfr
# [22:09] <krit> Zakim, who's here?
# [22:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, Doug_Schepers, Oliver_Goldman, smfr
# [22:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see krit, smfr, cabanier, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tav, dbaron, heycam|away, stearns, fantasai, vhardy, plinss, krijnh, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu
# [22:09] <krit> Zakim, Oliver_Goldman is me
# [22:09] <Zakim> +krit; got it
# [22:10] <Zakim> +Tav
# [22:10] <Zakim> +cabanier
# [22:11] * ed wonders if we should see if zakim will pick cabanier for scribing again ;)
# [22:11] <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
# [22:11] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit
# [22:12] <shepazu> scribenick: krit
# [22:13] <ed> topic: css transforms open issues
# [22:13] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
# [22:13] <ed> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution
# [22:14] <Zakim> -krit
# [22:14] <smfr> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&;resolution=---
# [22:14] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [22:15] <ChrisL> if we resolve it, i can take the action to publish it, likely on thursday
# [22:16] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
# [22:16] * ed will redial
# [22:16] <smfr> scribenick: smfr
# [22:16] <Zakim> -ed
# [22:16] <smfr> krit: question is what we do with the test suite
# [22:17] <smfr> particularly with SVG
# [22:17] <krit> smfr: are you scribing now?
# [22:17] <smfr> yes
# [22:17] <krit> smfr: thanks. I'll do it next time
# [22:17] <smfr> ChrisL: SVG is using the CSS model now, so the tests will just get picked up
# [22:17] <smfr> tests will get put in separate directories to people can just run some of them, but all the tests will get picked up
# [22:17] <smfr> krit: should we have SVG-only tests?
# [22:18] <smfr> ChrisL: CSS says they have to be XHTML1, and it generates XHTML1, HMTL4 and HTML print
# [22:18] <smfr> not sure if we can submit HTML5 tests now
# [22:18] * Joins: dino (dino@121.45.212.95)
# [22:18] <Zakim> +??P0
# [22:18] * ed is having some audio issues :P
# [22:18] <smfr> don't know how HTML5 has been integrated in (generated, or as the submission format)
# [22:19] <smfr> ChrisL: we can have both svg-only and not
# [22:19] <dino> zakim, i am P0
# [22:19] <Zakim> sorry, dino, I do not see a party named 'P0'
# [22:19] <dino> zakim, i am ??P0
# [22:19] <Zakim> +dino; got it
# [22:19] <smfr> krit: does CSS transforms say anything about what kinds of tests we need
# [22:19] <smfr> ChrisL: we need to test HTML with CSS transforms applied, and SVG with CSS transforms applied
# [22:19] <smfr> s/test/tests
# [22:20] <smfr> others would be good too
# [22:20] * dino Chris: <rabbits on>
# [22:20] <smfr> Tav: we talked about testing at the last SVG meeting
# [22:20] * ChrisL thanks dino :)
# [22:20] <smfr> will be awhile before we get our new system set up
# [22:21] * dino the best type of rabbits
# [22:21] <smfr> ChrisL: at last meeting resolved to change how SVG tests are structured, so they have an <html> <head>; easier for Shepherd system
# [22:21] * Quits: cabanier (IceChat77@192.150.22.150) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:21] <Zakim> +??P8
# [22:21] <smfr> krit: does the WG want SVG-only tests as well?
# [22:21] * ed Zakim, ??P8 is me
# [22:21] * Zakim +ed; got it
# [22:21] <smfr> ChrisL: yes, there's value in that e.g. for testing SVG inside CSS-transformed HTML
# [22:22] <smfr> krit: what would SVG-only tests look like?
# [22:22] <smfr> ChrisL: it's pretty easy
# [22:23] <smfr> ChrisL: we can compare with SVG tests using attributes, for ref testing
# [22:23] * Joins: cabanier (IceChat77@192.150.22.150)
# [22:23] <ChrisL> see here http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
# [22:23] <smfr> smfr: Dirk is asking about the format for an SVG-only test
# [22:24] <smfr> Tav: if this is OK I can go ahead and start making some tests
# [22:25] <smfr> Topic: open CSS transforms issues
# [22:25] <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution
# [22:25] <smfr> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&;resolution=--- (note the ---)
# [22:26] <smfr> krit: issue with SVG transforms and computed style
# [22:26] <smfr> across HTML and SVG
# [22:26] <krit> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15431
# [22:28] <smfr> issues with getComputedStyle and transform, transform origin etc
# [22:28] <smfr> smfr: we decided that for transform we'd return a list of functions
# [22:29] <smfr> krit: what about transform-origin etc?
# [22:29] <smfr> smfr: for most (e.g. backface-visibility) it's easy
# [22:29] <smfr> transform-origin depends on the resolution of the issue to match background-position
# [22:29] <smfr> we'll get on the CSS agenda for this week
# [22:30] <smfr> krit: issue with animations of translateX() vs. translate()
# [22:30] <ed> link?
# [22:30] <krit> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14715
# [22:30] <smfr> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15758
# [22:30] <smfr> ah, not mine
# [22:31] <smfr> dino: you can go from translateX to translateY just fine
# [22:31] <smfr> krit: what is the computed style during such an animation?
# [22:31] <smfr> dino: it could be translate(x, y)
# [22:32] <smfr> krit: if the functions don't match, computed style would be magic (matrix)
# [22:33] <smfr> dino: what's best for developers? it's best if we can match functions
# [22:33] <smfr> krit: computed style would have to be not just translateX and translateY
# [22:34] <smfr> dino: if we can avoid falling back to matrix more often, it's better for authors
# [22:34] <smfr> krit: same for skewX, skewY, scaleX, scaleY
# [22:34] <smfr> dino: rotate is hard
# [22:35] <smfr> rotateX -> rotate3d(….)
# [22:35] <smfr> dino: just handle the common ones
# [22:35] <ChrisL> there was a complaint about dropping skew ...
# [22:35] <smfr> dino: this is different from what webkit implements
# [22:35] <smfr> dino: yes
# [22:35] <smfr> krit: also other browsers
# [22:36] <smfr> krit: in SVG you match the transform functions exactliy
# [22:36] <smfr> s/exactliy/exactly
# [22:37] <smfr> krit: can we say that translateX, translateY and translate(x, y) are different types
# [22:38] <smfr> smfr: conflict between what browsers implement and what's best for authors
# [22:38] <smfr> ed: what content would break?
# [22:39] <smfr> dino: that would be content that is relying on weird behavior
# [22:39] <smfr> schepers: would the content be using prefixes anyway?
# [22:39] <smfr> dino: yes
# [22:40] <smfr> schepers: is webkit willing to change
# [22:40] <smfr> dino: yes
# [22:41] <dino> to clarify, the content that would change with these improved rules would be transform lists that mix scale and rotation. An animation from just translateX to just translateY would be identical with the fallback interpolation via matrix.
# [22:42] <smfr> smfr: spec should have "canonical" transform functions, like translate3d() and describe translateX as a shorthand
# [22:42] * Zakim smfr, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [22:42] <dino> dirk: what about translateX translateX translateX -> translateX
# [22:43] <dino> smfr: I don't think we should support lists with different lengths
# [22:43] <ed> translateZ -> translateY animations also fine?
# [22:43] <smfr> krit: we should match one by one
# [22:44] <smfr> ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations
# [22:44] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [22:44] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [22:44] <trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [on Dean Jackson - due 2012-03-12].
# [22:44] <smfr> schepers: are we going to publish a new WG?
# [22:45] <smfr> ed: not enough people here. we can resolve for SVG here
# [22:45] <ed> s/ enough people / enough CSSWG people /
# [22:45] <smfr> RESOLVED: SVG working group agrees to publish a new version of the CSS transforms spec with recent edits
# [22:46] <smfr> Topic: linearRGB vs sRGB for filter effects
# [22:46] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0078.html
# [22:46] <smfr> ChrisL: it's not about color interpolation, it's how you'd specify that for a filter shorthand
# [22:46] * Zakim smfr, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [22:46] <smfr> Zakim: shut up
# [22:46] <smfr> ChrisL: it's well defined what the default is
# [22:47] <smfr> Tav: no it's not
# [22:47] <smfr> ChrisL: assumed that it should match SVG
# [22:47] <smfr> Tav: WebKit implements sRGB
# [22:47] <smfr> we need a way to change the default
# [22:47] <ed> could we reuse the color-interpolation-filters property?
# [22:48] <smfr> ChrisL: you said you wanted opacity to not be in linear space(?)
# [22:48] <smfr> Tav: want consistency; what should be the default
# [22:48] <smfr> ChrisL: either we have the default be linear the same as longhand filters, or we have a keyword to allow authors to have control
# [22:49] <smfr> Tav: the Adobe apps do it the wrong way, and Flash player
# [22:49] <dino> I thought that was Rik?
# [22:49] <ChrisL> not all of them do in fact
# [22:49] <smfr> smfr: WebKit hasn't picked a way; it hasn't really be looked at carefully
# [22:50] <smfr> dino: what's the right thing to do here?
# [22:50] <smfr> dino: CSS doesn't what the colors are in
# [22:50] <smfr> ChrisL: the colors are specified to be sRGB
# [22:50] <smfr> ChrisL: but which case do you do math in for filters?
# [22:50] <ed> s/CSS doesn't what/CSS doesn't specify what/
# [22:51] <smfr> ChrisL: linear interpolation in filters needs to happen in a linear colorspace
# [22:51] <smfr> Rik: but you can use another colorspace
# [22:51] <smfr> ChrisL: but that isn't necessarily correct. Linear is correct
# [22:52] <smfr> dino: for every filter op, you'd convert sRGB into linear, run the filters, then convert back, then composite
# [22:52] <smfr> ChrisL: correct
# [22:52] <Zakim> -Tav
# [22:53] <smfr> ChrisL: longhand filters spec says it's linear, and shorthand filters should match
# [22:53] * cabanier is now known as cabanier[A]
# [22:53] * cabanier[A] is now away - Reason : Auto-Away after 30 minutes
# [22:53] <smfr> dino: do you only have to worry about the colorspace going into and coming out of the filter?
# [22:53] <dino> we don't necessarily need to scribe my education of color spaces :)
# [22:53] <Zakim> +Tav
# [22:54] <smfr> <more education of dino>
# [22:54] <krit> :D
# [22:54] <smfr> dino: what about a no-op filter like an feMerge?
# [22:54] <smfr> ChrisL: it would look different
# [22:55] <smfr> colorspace would affect the darkness of the antialiasing between the colors
# [22:56] <smfr> dino: now, with no-op shorthands, e.g. grayscale(0)
# [22:56] <smfr> ChrisL: that would not cahnge
# [22:56] <smfr> s/cahnge/change
# [22:58] <smfr> <discussion of various examples>
# [22:58] <shepazu> q+
# [22:58] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [22:58] <smfr> Tav: simple linear blending is not liberalized. there's an inconsistency in the spec
# [22:58] * ed that's rik again, not tav
# [22:58] <smfr> s/Tav/Rik
# [22:59] <smfr> <discussion of adobe tools behavior>
# [22:59] <smfr> Rik: real question is what the shorthands should o
# [23:00] <shepazu> q-
# [23:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <smfr> ChrisL: they should do it the proper way (linear), and we should give them a keyword if authors want other behaivor
# [23:00] <smfr> ChrisL: would need a new keyword on the shorthand filter
# [23:01] <smfr> ChrisL: what we really want is a single value for the whole filter
# [23:01] <smfr> smfr: or maybe another CSS property
# [23:01] <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationFiltersProperty
# [23:01] <smfr> smfr: is this different from SVG's color-interpolation property?
# [23:02] <smfr> ChrisL: no
# [23:02] <smfr> so this is just color-interpolation-filters
# [23:02] <smfr> ed: we have this in the filters spec
# [23:02] <smfr> ed: or maybe not
# [23:03] <smfr> ChrisL: so that property needs to be in the filters spec
# [23:03] <smfr> ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML
# [23:03] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [23:03] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-03-12].
# [23:04] <smfr> ed: are we happy with the defaults?
# [23:04] <smfr> ChrisL: yes
# [23:04] <smfr> Rik: ok as long as there's a way to turn it off
# [23:04] <smfr> ed: good to start with what we have for SVG
# [23:06] <smfr> ? problem with clamping for the compositing spec
# [23:06] <smfr> talk about next time
# [23:06] <Zakim> -dino
# [23:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [23:06] <Zakim> -ed
# [23:06] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
# [23:06] <Zakim> -cabanier
# [23:06] <Zakim> -Tav
# [23:06] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaaa
# [23:06] <Zakim> -smfr
# [23:06] <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
# [23:06] <Zakim> Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, smfr, krit, Tav, cabanier, ChrisL, +1.415.832.aaaa, dino
# [23:07] * Quits: dino (dino@121.45.212.95) (Quit: dino)
# [23:07] <smfr> ed: you'll take care of the minutes?
# [23:07] <smfr> i have to run
# [23:07] * ed smfr, sure np
# [23:07] <ed> trackbot, end telcon
# [23:07] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
# [23:07] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [23:07] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
# [23:07] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [23:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html trackbot
# [23:07] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [23:07] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-actions.rdf :
# [23:07] <RRSAgent> ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for transform animations [1]
# [23:07] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc#T21-36-48
# [23:07] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML [2]
# [23:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc#T21-56-17
# [23:08] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
# [23:08] * Quits: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:10] <ChrisL> smfr, who was the developer you said was woring on filters in webkit?
# [23:10] <ChrisL> i recognised the name at the time but now i forgot
# [23:12] <ed> timothy horton?
# [23:12] <ChrisL> thanks
# [23:13] <ChrisL> i'm happy to exchange email with him if he is working in that area
# [23:13] <ChrisL> or to add clarifying tests if there are areas of the spec that are unclerar
# [23:14] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
# [23:15] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
# [23:15] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [23:23] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.43.126.158)
# Session Close: Tue Mar 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)