/irc-logs / w3c / #fx / 2014-10-30 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 30 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #fx
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# [21:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-fx-irc
# [21:58] <ed> Meeting: TPAC 2014 day 1
# [21:58] <ed> RRSAgent, make minutes public
# [21:58] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ed. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [21:58] <ed> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [21:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ed
# [21:58] <ed> chair: ed
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# [22:02] <ed> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/TPAC_2014/Agenda#Thursday_14.00_-_15.30
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# [22:03] <Cyril> +present Cyril_Concolato
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# [22:03] <ChrisL> ChrisL:
# [22:03] <krit> Dirk Schulze, Adobe
# [22:03] <shans_> Shane Stephens, Google
# [22:03] <cabanier> rik cabanier
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# [22:03] <TabAtkins> Tab Atkins, Google
# [22:03] <dbaron> David Baron, Mozilla
# [22:03] <birtles> Brian Birtles, Mozilla
# [22:03] <smailus> participant: Thomas Smailus
# [22:03] <plinss> Peter Linss - HP
# [22:03] <astearns> Alan Stearns, Adobe
# [22:03] <nikos> Nikos Andronikos, CiSRA/Canon
# [22:03] <ed> Erik Dahlström, Opera
# [22:03] <BogdanBrinza> Bogdan Brinza, Microsoft
# [22:03] <smailus> participant: Thomas Smailus, Boeing
# [22:04] <bradk_> Brad Kemper, Invited Expert
# [22:04] <ChrisL> ChrisL W3C
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# [22:04] <dino> Dean Jackson, Apple
# [22:04] <Rossen_> Rossen Atanasov, Microsoft
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# [22:05] <shepazu> Doug Schepers, W3C
# [22:05] <ChrisL> ^^ Simon Frazer, Apple
# [22:05] <stakagi> Satoru Takagi,KDDI
# [22:05] <dael> ed: Let's start
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# [22:05] <dael> Topic: Filters
# [22:06] <dael> krit: I'd like to split this into two parts, the first is dino part.
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# [22:07] * ed thinks the projector doesn't like the topic
# [22:08] <dael> dino: I had an image on Tuesday that was showing something in the OSX UI which was basically a transparency effect where you blinked through the bg into the UI foreground. Windows has done that for a while
# [22:09] <dael> dino: We have many quests for it in web content. Parts of Safari want to do it in web content because we want to replicate the platform look/feel
# [22:09] <dael> dino: He's an image with no filter. There was curretnly no way to add a filter and have it add behind. What I proposed is a filter exactly like the filter we have now, but it takes the backdrop and applies a filter to it
# [22:10] <dael> dino: In here to apply sepia you get a nice cutout.
# [22:10] <dael> ChrisL: So it applied to the background. Is it the same as enable bg in SVG?
# [22:10] <dael> dino: It is.
# [22:11] <dael> dino: The most common is blur where we're giving that frosted glass effect. At least on OSX we extend so we feel the content is passing underneath.
# [22:11] <dael> dino: It works fine in Animations in this hack demo.
# [22:11] <dael> dino: I'm doing it all in the compositor so I can do a second rendering pass.
# [22:12] <dael> dino: You can see performance is pretty good, but it almost always req a second rending pass. Well, always.
# [22:12] <dael> dino: I wanted to show an image with 3d transforms, it's really just the backdrop as whatever is behind. There's a lot of edge cases and that terrifies me. What happens with two elements overlapping you can end up with n^2
# [22:13] <dael> dino: It was easy for me to impl this as it is now, but the edge cases may have limitations. Or if I have to do multi rendering.
# [22:13] <dael> ChrisL: Is this the same def of BG as SVG?
# [22:13] <dael> dino: Right, tree up to your point.
# [22:14] <dael> dbaron: There's a def in comp and blending for mixed blending. What if you're in something that has opacity 0.75, are you considering the stuff outside as part of your backdro. I think with mixed bend you're not
# [22:14] <dael> rik: I think we agreed it's the same.
# [22:14] <dael> dino: We can get crazy.
# [22:14] <dael> s/rik/cabanier
# [22:14] <dael> dino: [shows an edge case]
# [22:14] <dael> cabanier: So this won't do a background image, it paints before?
# [22:15] <dael> dino: Yes. If you do a solid bg color you wouldn't see anything.
# [22:15] <dael> dino: That's why it's a backdrop filter.
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# [22:15] <dael> shepazu: WE resolved to add bg color to SVG elements and at least outlines, maybe not borders, I don't...which would be to the bounding box. I don't think this effects that but I wanted to make you aware.
# [22:16] <dael> shepazu: I mentioned we're adding bg color to SVG elements. I don't think it interacts, but if you use this on an SVG circle with a bg it wouldn't composit with backdrop.
# [22:16] <dael> dino: I propose this is added to filters lvl 2.
# [22:16] <dael> ChrisL: And background in CSS syntax.
# [22:16] <dael> dbaron: So this is filtering and replacing backdrop?
# [22:16] <dael> dino: It's painted as a new image.
# [22:16] <dael> dbaron: transparancy?
# [22:17] <dael> ChrisL: That's why it's the enitre tree up to where you are.
# [22:17] <dael> dbaron: Where if you're something that establishes a new stacking context...
# [22:17] <dael> ChrisL: Oh, now I see lots of edge cases.
# [22:17] <dael> dino: I've taken the blurr off. If you put it really high you get a lot of transparancy and you can see the background at all.
# [22:18] <dael> dino: That's because you're seeing more of the solid backdrop.
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# [22:18] <dael> dino: If I did blur 10 it's a softer edge b/c the filter is making more non-transparent pixels.
# [22:18] <dael> BlackCatkins: So it's a composite.
# [22:18] <dbaron> so it's not replacing the backdrop, just painting over
# [22:19] <dael> dino: There are edge cases is what I'm saying.
# [22:19] <dael> cabanier: If you do opacity on the div it'll still work. We did that the other day.
# [22:19] <dael> krit: Mixed bg mode isolates.
# [22:19] <dael> dino: b/c it's a filter it's another prop that stacks.
# [22:19] <dael> cabanier: No, because it's on the background.
# [22:20] <dael> dino: There's advantage to stacking, you can acc easier. You're giving people something to distroy page perform if it's used bad. You could end up pre rendering at least twice.
# [22:20] <dael> plinss: Do you really want to render norm or just hte filter?
# [22:20] <dael> dino: The BG is still there's it's normal paint. This says suck it out and paint again.
# [22:20] <dael> plinss: Do you want the BG to have been painted?
# [22:20] <dael> dino: It's hard to paint with a whole.
# [22:21] <dael> plinss: You almost wantt o paint, cut it out, filter what you cut out, and put it back. I'm not sure you're adding any value.
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# [22:21] <dael> BlackCatkins: And you don't have to paint witht he hol.e
# [22:21] <dael> dino: It will be more likely people want the effect...right now it's on the element, but you'll see the limits on my impl.
# [22:22] <dael> dbaron: It's visible in the lower right corner.
# [22:22] <fantasai> dino shows example of applying border-radius
# [22:22] <dael> dino: I think people would just want it on the content text. That's more common. That would be really hard to draw and cut out.
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# [22:22] <fantasai> the blur filter is applied to the area within the border box rectangle, but not within the borders
# [22:22] <dael> krit: For filter effects we spec isolation prop to know when we have to have the backdrop. This isn't...you're suggesting we don't isolate.
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# [22:23] <dael> dino: I'm not set. I'm not 100% certain we want this. I'm getting requests and we want it internally, but people were asking for reflections 5 years ago.
# [22:23] <dael> dino: I suggest we put it in an experement and get feedback.
# [22:23] <dael> fantasai: Is this filter being applied to contents behind or to the background?
# [22:23] <dael> plinss: Behind the bg
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# [22:24] <dael> dbaron: One other thought, if you still want it the way you did it where it doesn't replace, maybe this is a value of te bg property instead of sep.
# [22:24] <dael> dino: bg applies block background rather then content.
# [22:24] <dael> dbaron: I was talking about what you have there, not the other thing.
# [22:24] <dael> BlackCatkins: It sounds like you can treat it as a lower bg layer.
# [22:24] <dael> plinss: Or a filter in the list of bg.
# [22:25] <dael> dbaron: That's what I was saying.
# [22:25] <dael> plinss: And if it'st he last applies to whatever is behind.
# [22:25] <ChrisL> s/And background in/Enable-background in
# [22:25] <dael> dino: We want a keyword to say grab behind.
# [22:25] <dael> fantasai: bg images list sets how long the thing is.
# [22:25] <dael> plinss: If it's the last there's nothing to filter but the backdrop
# [22:25] <dael> fantasai: We've had a suggestion of filters to just the background.
# [22:25] <dael> cabanier: We have that in the default prop
# [22:26] <dael> fantasai: How would that play with it...
# [22:26] <dael> BlackCatkins: Then we have it.
# [22:26] <dael> dbaron: It feels like it might be harder to accel.
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# [22:26] <dael> krit: We don't have to talk about the how. This is a prop and I think it's a good one. We can discuss how to actually make the effect possible. I'm not sure if it's nec. I'd like ot hear if the WG agrees on if we want to have this.
# [22:27] <dael> BlackCatkins: The only reason we've turned things like this down before is impl/perf complexity.
# [22:27] * shepazu … and fears of gorillas
# [22:27] <dael> krit: You saw there was media playing
# [22:27] <dael> BlackCatkins: It looked fine.
# [22:27] <dael> dino: Perf isn't how often you repaint it. It's more like something like nested iframes.
# [22:27] <dael> BlackCatkins: But if you only go back to the nearest.
# [22:27] <dael> cabanier: Or say you cannot nest.
# [22:27] <dael> dino: No point in discussing more.
# [22:27] <BlackCatkins> s/the nearest/the nearest stacking context/
# [22:28] * fantasai isn't seeing what Tab is talking about wrt filtering bs
# [22:28] <dael> BlackCatkins: You showed witht he border radius it blurred. That was accident of early impl.
# [22:28] <dael> dino: Yes.
# [22:28] <fantasai> s/bs/bgs/
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# [22:28] <dael> dino: In general you'll want to apply blend. At least in iOS and OSX it's a few filters to pop it out. As a designer you'll want to do a few extra things.
# [22:28] <dael> cabanier: And we can use noral bg for that
# [22:28] <dael> bradk: So it should follow bg clip?
# [22:29] <dael> dino: It should. I'm not a fan of that prop.
# [22:29] <dael> ed: So are we in agreement to add?
# [22:29] <dael> krit: I'm getting to level 1, but I'd say we switch back.
# [22:31] <dael> Topic: Compositing and Blending
# [22:31] <dael> cabanier: I want to give an overview of the state of the prop
# [22:32] <dael> cabanier: I have a diagram [projected]
# [22:33] <dael> cabanier: FF impl everything. Isolation is on its way. Safari shipped with complete support. They didn't impl blend-modes.
# [22:33] <dael> ChrisL: When FF does isolation can we exit CR?
# [22:33] <dael> cabanier: I don't think it needs to be shipping. Chrome supports everything if you turn on experimental features.
# [22:33] * fantasai would like to bad the word "mode" from all CSS specs forever
# [22:33] * fantasai s/bad/ban/
# [22:34] * shans_ thinks we should use "median" instead
# [22:34] <dael> cabanier: ed Is working with adobe on accelerating in Chrome, he's making a lot of progress so hopefully it'll run optimally even on mobile
# [22:34] <dael> krit: It's performance optimatization
# [22:34] <dael> cabanier: Correct. It'll run.
# [22:34] <dael> ChrisL: Anything on IE that will give us pause.
# [22:34] <adenilson> Hell no!
# [22:34] <dael> Rossen_: It will happen, it's not a hell no.
# [22:35] <dael> cabanier: There's no flaws that make you unable to impl?
# [22:35] <dael> Rossen_: I don't believe so.
# [22:35] <cabanier> google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vVyNnV4RwA9ga0ARgHY51v37MObpJX7jyFRlIs92-BI/edit#gid=2066776056
# [22:35] <ChrisL> https://status.modern.ie/compositingandblendingincanvas2d?term=composit
# [22:36] <dael> cabanier: It shows it's not just adobe working on it.
# [22:36] <dael> cabanier: krit went in and went over the individual, who commited what and when. The impl are completely diff. There'a almost no shared codes, the blending is done diff on backends.
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# [22:37] <dael> cabanier: So now we have support on background-modes. The Chrome dashboard shows it's going up a bit. There's a trend.
# [22:37] <dael> cabanier: If you go to code pen you find new examples every day for blend modes.
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# [22:37] <dael> cabanier: People are excited about it and loggin bugs.
# [22:38] <dael> cabanier: Safari shipped and has good performance.
# [22:38] <dael> cabanier: [shows and example with lots of blends]
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# [22:39] <dael> cabanier: People are making little animations, seems to work okay on all browsers. This morning there were a couple things on the spec. We resolved on the last issue and decided to keep as is. Someone from Samsung noticed an error in the spec.
# [22:39] <dael> cabanier: I talked to stevez and he believes since we're taking out a feature and isn't impl anywhere we don't have to go back.
# [22:40] <dael> stevez: y ou need a revision for the PR.
# [22:40] <dael> cabanier: So I think we're ready.
# [22:40] <dael> cabanier: We also have many tests on the CSS WG repository. The HTML part is tested well. SVG has a couple tests. I'm sure we'll write more. We need to test the feature we talked about this morning.
# [22:41] <dael> krit: 80 doesn't sound like much, but each has sub-tests.
# [22:41] <dael> krit: Since we have 2 impl of every feature, I think it's popular to move on.
# [22:41] <dael> ChrisL: Since we have a chair from each WG we can decide
# [22:41] <dael> ed: Any obj?
# [22:41] <dael> RESOLVED: Move Compositing and Blending to PR
# [22:42] <dael> cabanier: We have 4 weeks since there's a revision doc.
# [22:42] <dael> plinss: Do we have sufficent passes on all tests? Have we met the CR exit criteria. WE have a test suite, does it pass?
# [22:42] <dael> cabanier: Yes.
# [22:42] <dael> plinss: Okay. So we can gen a report.
# [22:42] <dael> Topic: Filtering Level 1
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# [22:43] <dael> krit: Level 1 there's many things added. They're shorthand filters.
# [22:43] <dael> krit: Something that is still missing is auto computed filter regions. For SVG you need a clipping region.
# [22:44] <dael> krit: By default the filter has a reach of 10% margin. To define automatic filter isn't simple b/c browsers have diff optimaizations.
# [22:44] <dael> krit: I suggest that we delay the automated filter reach to second level b/c everything else except one thing is impl in 2 broswers.
# [22:45] <dael> krit: There's a shorthand that ref bendmodes. There's two impl for shorthand filters. It's not in SVG yet, but I'm suggesting we finalize filter effects so we can get to CR in the next few weeks and go to the 2nd letter to add features that were requested.
# [22:46] <dael> krit: I'd like agreement from both WG that we dealty filter regions.
# [22:46] <dael> BlackCatkins: So right now the filter region is bounding block plus margin?
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# [22:46] <dael> krit: Yes, for SVG. You can make it bigger and as a sizable canvus, but they're not common. You don't see it to make this computation automitically. There aren't actually impl. You can do notes.
# [22:47] <dael> dbaron: The idea of the auto filter region is to behave as thought the region is infinite?
# [22:47] <dael> krit: Yes but many primitives aren't optimized.
# [22:47] <dael> krit: The second part is the code needs to be rewritten in several places. Right now you can assume a % and I think this is delaying the whole spec.
# [22:48] <dael> krit: Shorthand filters aren't supported by a few, but I assume this will change not too far in the future.
# [22:48] <dael> ChrisL: So it's one of those not enough days in the week?
# [22:48] <dael> krit: Yes. There's no limit on doing it, it's just the time.
# [22:48] <dael> ed: So objections to moving the automated filter to level 2?
# [22:49] <dael> dbaron: I thought we had code to automatically figure out which regions were needed. Maybe some of those hard filters miss that?
# [22:49] <dael> krit: Yes, they cannot use it for automatic filter.
# [22:49] <dael> dbaron: I guess I'm okay with it.
# [22:49] <dael> krit: I'm not saying you can't...
# [22:49] <dael> BlackCatkins: Since for the CSS shorthands you can't spec a filter region you're stuck with a large blur only extending 10%?
# [22:50] <dael> krit: If you haev SVG referened. If you have blur you don't have the margin. If you look at te actual filter, there's only 2 that extend area. The others make in pixel changes.
# [22:50] <dael> krit: There's code for SVG displacement.
# [22:50] <dael> BlackCatkins: So blur and drop shadow have a filter that makes it work?
# [22:50] <dael> krit: Yes.
# [22:51] <BlackCatkins> s/filter/filter region/
# [22:51] <dael> ???: That works for SVG. The drop shadow?
# [22:51] <dael> krit: Yes.
# [22:51] <ChrisL> s/???/Tav/
# [22:51] <dael> RESOLVED: move automatic margin computation to level 2
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# [22:51] <dael> ed: Any more on that?
# [22:52] <dael> krit: I'd like to pub a new WD. A new one would be good.
# [22:52] <dael> ed: Can we resolve on a new WD?
# [22:52] <dael> Tav: When do you start level 2?
# [22:52] <dael> krit: I'm trying to get this to CR this year. I'm happy with another editor working on the next level, but for me the focus is to move this to CR.
# [22:53] <dael> ChrisL: But if you're taking out of this it makes sense to have somewhere to put it.
# [22:53] <dael> ed: I'm jsut thinking since we're in the same room.
# [22:53] <dael> s/jsut/just
# [22:53] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish a new working draft of Level 1
# [22:54] <dael> ed: Anything more?
# [22:54] <dael> krit: Nothing right now. There's a lot that needs to work through the process.
# [22:54] <dael> ed: So the pertinant parts are edited.
# [22:54] <dael> Topic: Motion Path
# [22:55] <dael> krit: So this spec allows you to spec path and the obj gets positioned on this path. When you animate the offset you get smoothe animation. The prob is when we have % values than it must be relative to something.
# [22:56] <dael> krit: For HTML it might be relevent to boxes. I don't believe for HTML we need a ref box. It doesn't make sense to switch between margin box b/c they're similar. For SVG we don't want to limit by bounding box for instance. You might want it relevant to bounding box.
# [22:56] <dael> krit: I suggest adjust acording to canvas size or allow to switch between canvas and bounding box.
# [22:56] <dael> Tav: Why not the path length?
# [22:57] <dael> ChrisL: I think tht's more consistant with outer parts of SVG where we've had 2.
# [22:57] <dael> krit: On CSS model I'd like to stick what we have in masking if we switch between html reference.
# [22:57] * Quits: Tav (~tbah@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:57] <dael> krit: I'm not sure if stroke box is nec, but fill box and ??box they can be useful.
# [22:57] * Joins: Tav (~tbah@public.cloak)
# [22:57] * Cyril notes that the mixed pointy-brackets + parenthesis like <circle()> will be confusing to readers with SVG background
# [22:57] <dael> krit: I'm not sure how to integrate, but I'd like feedback to see if we should explore this.
# [22:58] <dael> krit: I can explain again.
# [22:58] <dael> birtles: What percentage?
# [22:58] <dael> krit: We have the motion path that has different shapes, this has length and percentage so the diff coordinates must be relative to a reference box, generally.
# [22:59] <dael> krit: So what do people think? Should we default to canvas and shoul we have a second box?
# [22:59] <dael> ChrisL: I think you should have a second and that makes it more consistant.
# [22:59] <dael> krit: I think if you have a viewport it would be interesting.
# [22:59] <dael> BlackCatkins: Since we're using basic shape it makes sense.
# [23:00] <dael> krit: You want to animate an element with its whole box to something. I'm not sure it's useful to switch, but since basic shapes take lengths you can make it absolute.
# [23:00] <dael> BlackCatkins: I'm not sure I see the reason why a shape inside allows a ref box. You might want an element animation around the edge of an element.
# [23:00] <dael> krit: I can see that.
# [23:00] <dael> astearns: You might want the boxes themselves to animate along
# [23:01] <dael> krit: For the content?
# [23:01] <dael> BlackCatkins: You can do that as an inset.
# [23:01] <dael> astearns: And you'd need to redo the border radius. You can do it but we have that short hand.
# [23:01] <dael> BlackCatkins: It sounds like basic shape needs to sprout a value that means shape of the lement.
# [23:01] <dael> krit: You can also say in basic shapeyou can reference the box.
# [23:01] <dael> krit: I'll try and add it, prob to motion path.
# [23:02] <dael> BlackCatkins: Which sub property?
# [23:02] <dael> krit: I think it goes witht he shape prop.
# [23:02] <dael> BlackCatkins: That seems appropriate.
# [23:02] <dael> krit: So the resolution would align motion path with shape outside to take a reference box.
# [23:03] <dael> ed: Okay. Is that it?
# [23:03] <dael> ChrisL: Do you need a resolution?
# [23:03] <dael> RESOLVED: align motion path with shape outside to take a reference box
# [23:03] <dael> Topic: transforms
# [23:03] <dael> krit: transform origin in SVG.
# [23:04] <dael> krit: [shows and example]
# [23:04] <dael> krit: The transform origin has always been the top left corner (with lots of simplification)
# [23:05] * Quits: jun (~jun@public.cloak) (jun)
# [23:05] <dael> krit: Now if we have a abspos circle element which means the origin is still top left, but if you want to rotate around the axis, the issue is that center/center can have a %, just absolute values.
# [23:05] <dael> krit: What people want to do is to do the rotate around its own axis.
# [23:06] <dael> krit: What I want to come up with is make this compat with old model and hook up to what people want. abs value is always top left, % is from object bounding box.
# [23:06] <dael> krit: It is a hack. We knew that at the time.
# [23:07] <dael> krit: The bproblem is when you have a side(?) function. If you use transform it changes the size and it's confusing. The way to get out is that we spec reference points. WE say we have a viewbox and everything is relative to that. Or the fill box.
# [23:08] <dael> krit: Then 0px is 0% but it depends on the ref box where it actually is. You need to modify the current transform spec to allow user to spec reference box, which would be the same as for shape outside.
# [23:08] * astearns such needless consistency
# [23:08] <dael> krit: It kind of breaks the webkit method where it's magic. They'll need to change.
# [23:08] <dael> shans_: WOuld this effect content?
# [23:08] * ChrisL its not magic. Its CSS AUTO-mation
# [23:08] <dael> krit: Content that already uses transform origin.
# [23:08] <dael> cabanier: Do you know how much?
# [23:09] <dael> krit: Mostly codepens. They don't work in FF anyway.
# [23:09] <dael> ??: So it's broken in FF.
# [23:09] <Cyril> s/??/Tav/
# [23:09] <dael> krit: They're all broken. It's a hack, but we think this makes more sense. The question is getting to blink/opera/google to see if they'd change
# [23:09] <dael> ed: So the imp would change how?
# [23:10] <BlackCatkins> s/can have a %/can't have a %/
# [23:10] <dael> krit: It's mostly the prefixes. So the webkit transform org property would need to change. For SVG people it's kind of messy with new model b/c they have to spec fill box.
# [23:10] <dael> krit: The default needs to be compat with existing SVG content which is much more likely to break.
# [23:10] <dael> krit: So did everyone understand the problem?
# [23:10] <dael> Tav: It won't break existing?
# [23:11] <dael> Rossen_: So you don't support this at all?
# [23:11] <dael> Tav: It uses a global rotation matrix.
# [23:11] <dael> krit: It didn't support transofrm origin. Blink doesnt' support either transform.
# [23:11] <dael> ChrisL: Which means impact is small.
# [23:11] <dael> Rossen_: Which is good.
# [23:11] <dael> shans_: I think if te SVG working group is happy.
# [23:12] <dael> krit: I'm not sure how long it takes for webkit to change. Safari likely wants this fix first.
# [23:12] <dael> dino: Yep, that'st e only thing stopping us.
# [23:12] <ChrisL> s/is happy/is happy, Blink would change
# [23:12] <dael> krit: That's why it's a high priority.
# [23:12] <dael> cabanier: Did you write this?
# [23:12] <dael> krit: no. I'd like feedback first.
# [23:12] <dael> krit: birtles for dbaron do you have an opinion?
# [23:12] <dael> dbaron: I didn't follow.
# [23:12] <dael> birtles: I think we only backed out due to performance.
# [23:13] <dael> ed: I'm not exactly following. You need a keyword to make things work now?
# [23:13] <dael> krit: Just for transform origin, 0px in SVG means take the top left. 0% means top left of object bounding box.
# [23:13] <dael> ChrisL: Then when you use calc it's a mess.
# [23:13] <dael> dbaron: Fixing it sounds good.
# [23:14] <dael> krit: Fix it to prob create a new...you need to have reference boxes, that's the first thing. They're prob not needed for HTML since they can use margin box. We need fill box and stroke box for defaults. I want to have those two keywords added to transform prop or a new one because transform has the same problem. You also have translate with that problem.
# [23:14] <dael> BlackCatkins: So CSS has no prob because ref box is the border box.
# [23:15] <dael> krit: I'd rather a new prop because it's diff with animating the property. It's more difficult with SVG.
# [23:15] <dael> BlackCatkins: So a new transform sub property.
# [23:15] <dael> cabanier: You wouldn't want to extend transform org.
# [23:15] <dael> krit: Correct.
# [23:15] <dael> birtles: And the default?
# [23:15] <dael> krit: Viewbox for SVG and border box for HTML.
# [23:16] <dael> krit: Viewbox falls abck tot border box, so it's just SVG effected.
# [23:16] <dael> ed: So is it viewbox what you want?
# [23:16] <dael> krit: The problem is if you spec center/center you need the bounding box We have to think about what exists already so it needs to be viewbox.
# [23:16] <dael> krit: It's bad but nec.
# [23:17] <dael> krit: I'm not sure on a name yet if there's a suggestion. transform-box.
# [23:17] <dael> Tav: transform-reference
# [23:17] <dael> krit: That makes it sound like you're referencing something.
# [23:17] <dael> ChrisL: transform-box makes more sense.
# [23:17] <dael> krit: Can we have a resolution?
# [23:17] * Joins: jun (~jun@public.cloak)
# [23:17] <dael> RESOLVED: add a new prop called transform-box
# [23:18] <dael> and keywords all fillbox viewbox and borderbox
# [23:18] <dael> krit: We could add stroke box. I don't see value in that.
# [23:18] <dael> Tav: I want to make sure.
# [23:19] <dael> krit: fillbox is a bounding box. That name already was chosen.
# [23:19] <dael> Tav: It's the same as a geometry box.
# [23:19] <dael> krit: s/all/are
# [23:19] * Quits: jun (~jun@public.cloak) (jun)
# [23:19] <dael> ed: I think for consistancy we should have boxes.
# [23:19] * Joins: jun (~jun@public.cloak)
# [23:19] <dael> krit: Will any impl support them?
# [23:20] <ed> s/have boxes./have all the available *-box keywords./
# [23:20] <dael> ChrisL: For impl are they going to put the extra code in to do it? They may be parsing those string and need to add a special case.
# [23:20] <dael> krit: I say the others don't make sense and we shouldn't add them there for consistancy.
# [23:20] * ChrisL a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small boxes
# [23:20] <dael> shans_: It really just needs to be a top left width and height value.
# [23:21] <dael> ed: I'll settle. It's not extra cost.
# [23:21] <dael> krit: Do we want to add something not used to make it consistant? If people request it we add it. It's not a big cost.
# [23:21] <dael> ed: Yeah. I guess.
# [23:21] <dael> krit: If impl do the other boes, by all means we'll add it.
# [23:21] <dael> s/boes/boxes
# [23:22] * ChrisL face of boe
# [23:22] <dael> krit: That's it.
# [23:22] * Tav http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/tpac_2014.html
# [23:22] <ed> s/I'll settle/I'd settle for adding stroke-box/
# [23:22] <dael> Topic: Geometry Interfaces
# [23:23] <dael> ed: We have 5 minutes to break.
# [23:23] <dael> krit: Mine might be long. Let's do a break.
# [23:23] <dael> Tav: I've got a 5 min topic
# [23:23] <Tav> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/COLOR_INTERPOLATION/index.html
# [23:24] * Joins: jun_ (~jun@public.cloak)
# [23:24] <dael> Tav: I don't have anything to propose.
# [23:24] <dael> Topic: Color Interpolation
# [23:24] <dael> Tav: [Goes to the bottom of the ex and shows a color change with zoom]
# [23:25] <dael> ChrisL: It's because of gamma function
# [23:25] <dael> Tav: As we move to things using 16 bit color you're not going to get the right answer. WE want to keep this in mine that we want to do this in the right color space.
# [23:25] <dael> BlackCatkins: Can you explain the squares?
# [23:25] <dael> Tav: Top left is 2x2 bitmap, a checker board
# [23:26] <dael> Tav: The other is SVG rectangles, same thing.
# [23:26] <dael> Tav: What you expect is bottom right, what you get is the left.
# [23:26] <dael> BlackCatkins: So the SVG averages to #bbbbbb
# [23:27] <dael> Tav: If you're color is right, te top two should be the same at zoom 0.
# [23:27] * Quits: jun (~jun@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:27] * jun_ is now known as jun
# [23:27] <dael> BlackCatkins: So the top two and bottom right should be the same.
# [23:27] <dael> Tav: They should look like the bottom left.
# [23:28] <dael> Tav: This only works with normal def screen.
# [23:28] * Rossen_ 5mins later we believe we understand the issue...?
# [23:28] * ed it's all a blur?
# [23:28] <dael> Tav: For the future when you think about imaging, think about the color space.
# [23:28] <dael> krit: What's the request?
# [23:28] <dael> Tav: When you scale p/down it should be in a linear color space.
# [23:29] <dael> Tav: Also gradient interp stuff. Weird colors and washedout stuff.
# [23:29] <dael> ChrisL: It needs to be linear like.
# [23:29] <ChrisL> so it needs to be in a linear-light colorspace
# [23:29] <dael> [30 minute break]
# [23:29] <ChrisL> s/like/light/
# [23:34] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Be back later ...")
# [23:39] * Quits: smailus (~smailus@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:44] * Quits: jun (~jun@public.cloak) (jun)
# [23:48] * Quits: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:54] * Joins: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak)
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014

The end :)