/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-03-23 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Fri Mar 23 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <@DanC> indeed. but often well worth it.
# [00:01] <@DanC> sometimes people say the W3C staff should develop a web browser or something. That might be cool, but when we do tests, we help all the existing web browser development projects.
# [00:02] <@DanC> CSS went from doesn't-work to works because of test suite development.
# [00:03] <mjs> test development indeed has high value
# [00:03] <@DanC> fyi, some slides about testing and W3C specs, delivered at an OWL thingy. http://www.w3.org/2006/11dc-athens/owl-quality
# [00:09] * Disconnected
# [00:09] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
# [00:09] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
# [00:09] * Topic is 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://www.w3.org/2007/03/22-html-wg-irc (logged)'
# [00:09] * Set by DanC on Thu Mar 22 16:46:13
# [00:09] * Quits: krijnh (krijnhoetm@213.84.148.98) (Connection reset by peer)
# [00:10] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
# [00:10] * DanC sets mode: +o MikeSmith
# [00:10] * DanC sets mode: +o Dave-off
# [00:14] * @DanC is away: done for the day
# [00:20] * Quits: tylerr (tylerr@66.195.32.2) (Quit: Leaving)
# [00:23] <schnitz> Hixie, I will not reply, I think we made our points clear enough, but I am curious to see how others see this, I intended to target this to everyone in the group, not just you and me
# [00:24] * Joins: JulienR (JulienR@86.71.53.83)
# [00:25] <JulienR> Hi
# [00:26] <Hixie> schnitz: that's a pity, i was sincere in my request for concrete suggestions
# [00:26] <schnitz> Hixie, as I said to anne before, that would be the next step
# [00:27] <Hixie> ok... so what is _this_ step?
# [00:27] <schnitz> Hixie, before, there is this general question
# [00:27] * mjs just replied to schnitz's latest email
# [00:28] <Hixie> schnitz: i don't understand what this step (the "general question") will achieve. everyone who has replied has agreed that what is needed is concrete technical discussion, it seems.
# [00:28] <schnitz> Hixie, not so sure on that
# [00:28] <Hixie> who hasn't?
# [00:29] <Hixie> anne, myself, and maciej were the only people i've seen reply, and we've all said, in short, "give examples"
# [00:29] <schnitz> Hixie, oh, don't get me wrong, not so many have replied yet
# [00:29] * Hixie shrugs
# [00:29] <schnitz> exactly, we have... more than 150 members?
# [00:29] <Hixie> i guess i don't understand what you are hoping the general question will achieve
# [00:29] <Hixie> but like i said, i'm not very good with abstract things, so maybe i just don't get it
# [00:29] <mjs> I don't think anyone will reply and say "no, forget about concrete examples, let's agree on a vague general principle first!"
# [00:29] <mjs> I mean, it's possible, but your odds are slim
# [00:30] <schnitz> mjs, thats fine
# [00:30] <Hixie> especially in this group, i mean, html5 is built on the concept of starting from concrete examples, the whole community is orientated around that concept
# [00:33] <schnitz> thats all fine, really :-) Still, I believe this is an interesting question, and I am still curious to see how others see this
# [00:33] <schnitz> and if no-one see this similar, fine
# [00:33] <schnitz> s/see/sees
# [00:36] * Quits: JulienR (JulienR@86.71.53.83) (Quit: JulienR)
# [00:37] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.72.79)
# [00:37] <Hixie> ok... if we get distracted by just pondering interesting questions instead of actually getting on with real work, though, the working group might make decisions before you've had a chance to actually get around to the technical stuff, though
# [00:37] <Hixie> too many "though"s
# [00:38] <mjs> schnitz: as I said in my message, I think there is a fundamental difference of vision in the HTML5 community and the XHTML2/XForms community
# [00:38] <mjs> schnitz: for this reason, vague general alignment does not make sense, unless we first eliminate such differences in basic premises
# [00:38] <mjs> schnitz: therefore, it only makes sense to discuss specific issues
# [00:39] <schnitz> Hixie, thanks for the advice, but then I'd be more concrete and say I think its not just an interesting question but an important one too, however I do respect WG decisions, and if a decision is made beforehand, I will accept it, of course
# [00:39] <schnitz> but, we are brainstorming
# [00:41] <schnitz> mjs, interesting thought, could you describe this fundamental difference in vision you just pointed out other than backwards-compatibility?
# [00:41] <mjs> schnitz: backwards-compatibility, support for apps as well as documents
# [00:41] <mjs> those two seem pretty big
# [00:41] <schnitz> ok thats similar
# [00:41] <mjs> they are the reason for most of the big differences between HTML5 and XHTML2
# [00:41] <schnitz> you don't want to break documents
# [00:42] <Hixie> mjs: that, precision (e.g. in defining the header semantics, which xhtml2 doesn't do at all), and taking into account implementation feedback (e.g. that's why href="" and src="" aren't on all elements in HTML5) is, i think, the source of _all_ the differences.
# [00:43] <schnitz> XForms Transitional is being designed with backwards-compatibility in mind too, and yes its not fully crisp, but the general approach is e.g. more declarative, and thats a level of general alignment I am getting too
# [00:45] * Joins: schnitz41 (Miranda@85.181.47.73)
# [00:45] * schnitz41 is now known as schnitz_
# [00:45] <schnitz_> back, got kicked somehow :-)
# [00:46] <schnitz_> Hixie, implementation experience is generally important, no question about that
# [00:46] * Quits: schnitz (Miranda@85.181.10.132) (Ping timeout)
# [00:46] * schnitz_ is now known as schnitz
# [00:48] <Hixie> schnitz: xforms transitional has more in common with web forms 2 than with xforms; most of the differences between web forms 2 and xforms transitional are places where web forms 2 took an approach with a better graceful degradation story (e.g. the combo box design)
# [00:50] <schnitz> yes, its intentionally closer to web forms since it e.g. does not use XPath, based on SGML-HTML, etc. therefore you end up with something similar
# [00:51] <schnitz> however, the way Transitional is defined is still closer to XForms than web forms is
# [00:51] <schnitz> its in between web forms and xforms
# [00:51] <schnitz> and thats IMO a good thing
# [00:52] <schnitz> for general architectural reasons I outlined before :-)
# [00:53] <mjs> so it seems like the main feature proposal that XForms Transitional represents is "somewhat more declarative expression-based constraints, validation and value calculation"
# [00:53] <mjs> or something like that
# [00:55] <schnitz> well, it has been designed with XForms closer in mind than web forms, for sure, and XForms is more declarative, so your statement should be right, mjs
# [00:55] <mjs> I would like to discuss the value of that feature, and whether there is a workable design, and whether it could reasonably be added to Web Forms 2
# [00:55] <mjs> not the general principle of whether alignment is good in some vague way
# [00:55] <schnitz> Dave Raggett started that message
# [00:56] <mjs> so far, he made a separate proposal that also drops many Web Forms 2 features, and at least Hixie, anne and I do not believe his design is workable
# [00:56] <schnitz> mjs, ok thats you're opinion, we disagree on this one, thats ok, I think general alignment is a good thing to ask at this point
# [00:56] <mjs> no one has discussed whether his design could be added to Web Forms 2
# [00:56] <mjs> schnitz: you've asked, and my personal answer is "don't care"
# [00:56] <mjs> I care if a feature is good, not if it is aligned
# [00:56] <schnitz> mjs, and I said, thats ok :-)
# [00:57] <mjs> ok, so you can try to persuade me, using the kinds of arguments I have said would work to promote your feature, or you can try to continue discussion of the more vague point
# [00:58] <schnitz> mjs, persuading is not the right, now, I believe
# [00:58] <schnitz> the right thing
# [00:59] <mjs> well, do you want declarative expression features in HTML forms or not?
# [00:59] <mjs> if you want them, you need to convince people
# [00:59] <mjs> I'm trying to advise you on a good strategy for that
# [01:00] <schnitz> of course, but as I said, I would like to wait a little and see if, and how, others react to the general alignment question (repeating myself
# [01:00] <schnitz> )
# [01:00] <schnitz> mjs, thanks, appreciated, but I would like to let this sink in it with the group before we go on
# [01:01] <schnitz> s/sink in it/sink in first
# [01:03] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
# [01:17] <Lachy_> This whole concept of aligning web forms and XForms in XForms Transitional seems misguided to me
# [01:18] <Lachy_> There doesn't seem to be any real world, practical benefits to doing so. The benefits seem purely theoretical, and even those are questionable.
# [01:19] <Lachy_> I don't like the XForms transitional approach because instead of looking at WF2 and asking "does it solve this use case", it looks at it and says "how could WF2 solve this use case more like XForms", which is a totally stupid way of looking at the situation
# [01:21] <heycam> Lachy_, i must admit i haven't read through Web Forms 2.0 in much detail. is it possible to have an automatically filled in "total" value, as you could expect in some ordering form with multiple items?
# [01:21] <schnitz> Lachy_: no, I said that in the end all those technologies will co-exist in the market together, so making them closer is less integration effort, and less expensive, thats a very non-stupid real-world aspect
# [01:21] <Lachy_> I think the approach we should take is to objectivly look at WF2 and see what use cases it does and does not address well, and see how we can improve it, rather than just taking an architecturally different approach
# [01:21] <Hixie> heycam: sure, that's even possible in web forms 1, look, e.g., at the apple store
# [01:22] <Hixie> heycam: go to http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore
# [01:22] <Hixie> heycam: click on, say, teh MacBook icon
# [01:22] <Hixie> heycam: then click one of the Select buttons
# [01:22] <heycam> Hixie, without adding event listeners on each order row's field that then recompute the total?
# [01:22] <Hixie> then click the radio buttons, and look at the Subtotal at the top right
# [01:23] <Hixie> heycam: oh, no, but then there are few interfaces that work like that on the web anyway
# [01:23] <Hixie> heycam: e.g. that wouldn't make it any easier to implement the apple store
# [01:24] <heycam> i think it's a good use case though. often forms have to do a post back when you change the number of items in orders. automatically computing the shipping price too, which is dependent on the number/type of items in the order.
# [01:24] <Hixie> all of that happens today on the apple store
# [01:24] <Hixie> without talking to the server
# [01:25] <heycam> with event listeners / script functions
# [01:25] <heycam> of course everything is possible with script, i don't think the people pushing declarative things argue that it can do things that can't otherwise be done
# [01:25] <schnitz> right :-)
# [01:25] <heycam> i think such things would be easier with things like calculate=""
# [01:26] <heycam> (if calculate="" were done properly)
# [01:26] <heycam> but (and this is the big "but" that is going to cover much of the discussion in this group, i think), it's the backwards compatibility / fallback issue that is troublesome for such proposals
# [01:27] <heycam> if you need to write script to fall back when there's no support for calculate="", then you may as well forget writing the calculate="" in the first place
# [01:28] <Hixie> i don't see how calculate="" would let you do the apple store
# [01:28] <Hixie> and your last point is indeed important
# [01:29] <Dashiva> I'd think more people would worry about calculate moving behavior into the markup, but I suppose the declarative aspect means it doesn't really count as behavior
# [01:30] <schnitz> yes, and one could tend towards being less today-oriented and still adding it, even though you need a script fallback, because there is this general alignment that this should, over time, move out of script space, and become declarative, or behavior :-)
# [01:30] <Hixie> well, fundamentally if we address use cases that don't exist and ignore things that people are doing today, we're not going to be very successful :-)
# [01:31] <Hixie> i think if whatever we do doesn't work to do the apple store, or amazon, or other things like this, we're basically doomed
# [01:31] <heycam> schnitz, yeah, that's the main the argument for this alignment, right? if you ever want to introduce non-incrementally-developed new behaviour into html, it'll be much harder without alignment guiding you there
# [01:31] <schnitz> heycam, yes, thank you
# [01:31] <heycam> Hixie, of course, these discussions should always be grounded in use cases
# [01:32] <heycam> calculate="" would allow you to write the apple store's checkout page more simply, though
# [01:32] <Hixie> though i dunno what i'd like, namewise
# [01:32] <Hixie> er
# [01:32] <Hixie> wrong channel
# [01:38] <schnitz> time to call it a day in my timezone, bye everyone :-)
# [01:38] <heycam> Dashiva, why do you think having behaviour in the markup is bad?
# [01:38] <heycam> bye schnitz
# [01:38] <schnitz> bye heycam
# [01:38] * Quits: schnitz (Miranda@85.181.47.73) (Quit: schnitz)
# [01:40] <Dashiva> It's not as much my thoughts, just that I've picked up a lot of people feeling very strongly about separating out behavior and presentation.
# [01:47] <heycam> imo there are 2 reasons for separating out these things: a) so that documents can work without that aspect (or with different versions of it) -- e.g. different stylings of the one document for different media --, and b) to factor out commonality for code reuse
# [01:48] <heycam> i guess it depends on what sort of behaviour you have stuffed into the markup, as to whether it's problematic. if you want to write some shopping site that works on regular browsers and phone browsers (where there's not necessarily the same modes of interaction), then i think it'd be better to factor out the behaviour somehow
# [01:48] <heycam> with xbl maybe
# [02:29] <preston> Yep - I am one of those seperation-of-concerns folk. As to 'calculate="" would allow you to write the apple store's checkout page more simply' ... I just don't buy it. Javascript is a decent language. With calculate="" all your names have to be globals (kind of in the "duh" category). No advantage taken of closures or locally scoped names.
# [02:33] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
# [02:38] * Quits: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234) (Quit: |)
# [02:39] * Quits: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.180.242) (Quit: kingryan)
# [02:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.126) (Quit: mjs)
# [02:46] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.231.74)
# [02:47] <heycam> preston, if the only use cases are of the level of the apple store checkout page, then it's probably not worth having a whole one-way constraint solver in the browser, i agree.
# [02:48] <Hixie> it would be interesting to see what pages exist on the web today that would benefit from such a feature
# [02:48] <heycam> i agree
# [02:48] <heycam> (i think i'm saying "i agree" too much :))
# [02:49] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.231.74) (Quit: mjs)
# [02:52] <heycam> i suppose the advantage really only comes out when the dependency graph is complex enough that it is worth avoiding recomputing unchanged values, and when the author can't determine the graph straight away to program that minimal recomputation based on onchange event handlers
# [02:54] * Joins: billmason (billmason@71.236.194.106)
# [02:59] <karl> hmmm
# [03:00] * karl is looking at the logs of 22, but already 23 March here :)
# [03:00] * Quits: @MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
# [03:00] <heycam> timezones break the web ;)
# [03:02] <karl> hehe
# [03:03] <karl> my most interesting experience about timezone was a trip from Japan to Hawaii, a few years ago.
# [03:03] <karl> I left Tokyo at 8 PM and I have arrived in Hawaii at 8 AM... the exact same day. I had to do the day again :p
# [03:04] * Joins: mutilator (WebChat@65.111.201.122)
# [03:04] <heycam> whereupon you read your newspaper from japan and solved crimes a la Early Edition?
# [03:05] <heycam> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Edition)
# [03:05] * Joins: bfults_ (bfults@70.95.237.98)
# [03:05] * karl has an impression of deja vu
# [03:08] * bfults_ is now known as h3h
# [03:10] <karl> hmmm camino crashed again. the beta version is not very stable
# [03:18] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
# [03:29] * karl is looking at http://aaronland.info/talks/scribblenet/
# [03:31] * Quits: quaiz (quaiz@66.162.32.234) (Ping timeout)
# [03:32] * Quits: h3h (bfults@70.95.237.98) (Quit: h3h)
# [03:32] <karl> Interesting quote in the slide
# [03:32] <karl> "The man in charge should never enter in to discussions, because he loses authority by debate... [P]eople call govenors constructors of society." -- Antonio Gaudi
# [05:48] * Disconnected
# [09:33] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
# [09:33] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
# [09:33] * Topic is 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://www.w3.org/2007/03/22-html-wg-irc (logged)'
# [09:33] * Set by DanC on Thu Mar 22 16:46:13
# [09:53] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [10:24] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Quit: ...Marcos.setMode(Utils.Life.WEEKEND);)
# [10:26] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.252.223) (Client exited)
# [10:33] * Joins: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.252.223)
# [10:53] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
# [10:57] * Quits: quaiz (quaiz@70.181.154.111) (Quit: quaiz)
# [11:13] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.72.79) (Ping timeout)
# [11:17] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
# [11:24] * Joins: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [11:24] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12)
# [11:30] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.72.79)
# [11:32] * Joins: matt (fire4x@84.9.127.20)
# [11:40] <anne> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [11:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, anne
# [11:43] <Hixie> you're up early for someone who was awake at 6am
# [11:43] <anne> it's hard to sleep when the sun is up
# [11:43] <Hixie> if you say so :-)
# [11:44] * Parts: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [11:44] * Hixie often slept through both sunrise and sunset and everything in between when he was in oslo in the winter
# [11:44] <anne> well, it's also my curtains, which let the sun go through
# [11:45] <anne> there's not much sunrise during the winter there though :)
# [11:46] <Hixie> :-)
# [12:11] <anne> lol
# [12:12] <anne> someone considers a mailing list and IRC to old school
# [12:12] <Dashiva> Meanwhile, someone else thinks IRC is too newfangled
# [12:15] <marcos_> hehe
# [12:18] <marcos_> lets us paper :D
# [12:18] <marcos_> s/us/use
# [12:21] <anne> Hixie, #video links to <audio>
# [12:23] <Lachy> id=video is appears 3 times in the spec
# [12:28] * anne wonders how people think an online forum will help with things
# [12:29] <anne> but there's one: forums.whatwg.org
# [12:30] <Lachy> there's a wiki for to serve as an "ideas board" too
# [12:32] * anne thinks a mailing list is good enough
# [12:32] <Dashiva> I worry more about effort being fragments across too many locations
# [12:32] <Lachy> anne, are you replying to tell them that? if so, I won't bother
# [12:32] <anne> you can do it
# [12:32] <Lachy> ok, will do
# [12:32] * anne doesn't have the original mail
# [12:33] <anne> Dashiva, as long as they all end up in one place it should be fine
# [12:33] * Joins: smedero (smedero@158.130.16.191)
# [12:42] <hsivonen> old school mailing list and IRC: good
# [12:42] <hsivonen> web forums: bad
# [12:44] <Lachy> I don't understand people facination with forums. They're so much harder to keep track of
# [12:44] <hsivonen> indeed
# [12:44] <Dashiva> Automatic threading :)
# [12:44] <Lachy> E-mail has threading too
# [12:49] <Dashiva> But with email you depend on all clients sending the right metadata, or otherwise you're just making educated guesses
# [12:49] * Dave-off is now known as Dave
# [12:50] <Lachy> luckily, most user's on the mailing list don't use broken clients like Outlook, and in practice threading works quite well
# [12:54] <anne> 204 participants already
# [12:54] <Lachy> I wonder how many are still in the Queue
# [12:55] * anne initially confused Gavin Pearce with Gavin Sharp
# [12:55] * anne won't make that mistake again
# [13:01] <Lachy> who's Gavin Sharp?
# [13:01] <Dashiva> Some mozilla guy, isn't he?
# [13:01] * Joins: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [13:02] <anne> the gavin (and gavin_) here on IRC
# [13:04] * Joins: eric_daspet (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
# [13:05] <smedero> Gavin is either a "mozilla guy" (correct) or according to Wikipedia "the neighbor from hell" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Sharp
# [13:12] <krijnh> anne: how does that threading in Opera work? Cause some mails are new topics, while they actually should be part of a discussion
# [13:13] <krijnh> And if (when) I also think my input is needed, do I just use Reply all? Or do I break the threading then?
# [13:15] <Lachy> krijnh, some e-mail clients fail to send the In-Reply-To header in replies, which is what cases broken threading
# [13:15] <anne> reply all should just work
# [13:15] <krijnh> Ok
# [13:15] <krijnh> That was keeping me from posting ;)
# [13:15] <anne> unless I broke threading somewhere which is likely
# [13:16] * anne doesn't care much for threading
# [13:16] <krijnh> Re: Brainstorming - abbreviations is scattered around
# [13:16] * anne reads e-mail one by one, not by thread
# [13:16] <krijnh> Me neither, but it could be handy for an overview or something
# [13:16] <anne> <abbr> is a solved issue
# [13:16] <krijnh> At least with a forum that can be moderated
# [13:17] <Lachy> I like threading. It's a nice way to be able to read through all posts on one topic all at once
# [13:18] * Joins: schnitz (Miranda@85.181.47.73)
# [13:19] <Lachy> I still have 116 e-mails in public-html to read :-( was anything interesting ever said in that abbr/acronym thread? If not, I'm just going to mark as read
# [13:20] * anne wonders why anyone takes the time to debate silly points with Gareth Hay as opposed to the other way around
# [13:20] <anne> Lachy, nothing new
# [13:20] <schnitz> hi, BTW :-)
# [13:21] <anne> morning
# [13:21] <anne> (well, it still feels like morning anyway)
# [13:21] <schnitz> anne, yep :-)
# [13:21] <Dashiva> If it feels like morning, I should probably be waking up
# [13:31] * Parts: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [13:34] * anne complains about <source>
# [13:36] <Lachy> anne, <source> vs. <param> was discussed in #whatwg earlier today between Hixie and Maciej. Check the logs
# [13:36] <anne> i did
# [13:36] <anne> and i disagree
# [13:36] <anne> hence the e-mail
# [13:37] <Lachy> fair enough
# [13:37] <anne> (also the reason I suggested type="" as I wasn't aware of that)
# [13:37] <krijnh> My logs miss some hours
# [13:38] <Lachy> I have the entire log available from today. What time period do you need?
# [13:38] <anne> The <video> element doesn't mention the idea of using <source> at all it seems
# [13:38] <krijnh> Lachy: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070323#l-281
# [13:40] <Lachy> I'll extract that section and make it available for you
# [13:46] <Lachy> krijnh, get the IRC log file from here ftp://lachy.dyndns.org/
# [13:46] <Lachy> the times are UTC+11:00
# [13:50] <krijnh> Thanks :)
# [13:50] <krijnh> Damn timezones
# [13:50] <krijnh> Who invented those :/
# [13:50] * Quits: marcos_ (chatzilla@203.206.31.102) (Ping timeout)
# [13:53] <Lachy> unfortunately, my client doesn't have an option to store times in UTC. I hate time zones too
# [13:53] <krijnh> I think mine does
# [13:57] <krijnh> Then again maybe not
# [13:58] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.252.223) (Client exited)
# [14:01] <Lachy> we need a whatwg-troll list for people some newbies on the list
# [14:01] <krijnh> ?
# [14:02] <Lachy> all the people that carry on and argue over sillly little things should stop posting to the main list
# [14:02] <krijnh> How do people about to post know if what they are about to post is a little thing?
# [14:02] <anne> that doesn't work
# [14:03] <krijnh> With a forum that could be moderated :)
# [14:03] <Lachy> I know it wouldn't work, what I said was supposed to be sarcasm
# [14:04] <krijnh> We really need a <sarcasm> element
# [14:04] <krijnh> And tag
# [14:04] <anne> without tags it requires less typing
# [14:05] <krijnh> True
# [14:08] <Lachy> ah, finally Garath Hay says something sensible :-)
# [14:09] <Lachy> "... I am leaving the thread, as we are getting nowhere..."
# [14:09] <anne> he also said "I'm an idiot"
# [14:09] <Lachy> yeah, that too
# [14:13] * Joins: Stefan (Stefan@193.171.131.244)
# [14:30] <Lachy> I have finally finished dealing with all mailing list e-mails :-)
# [14:31] <Lachy> good night everyone
# [14:31] <anne> nn
# [14:31] <hasather> good night Lachy
# [14:37] * Joins: AnPol (chatzilla@85.118.224.254)
# [14:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [14:56] * Joins: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235)
# [15:01] * Joins: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.252.223)
# [15:13] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.252.223) (Ping timeout)
# [15:14] * Joins: Deeder (Deeder@86.196.127.191)
# [15:14] * Joins: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [15:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
# [15:26] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [15:29] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [15:36] * Joins: h3h (bfults@70.95.237.98)
# [15:37] * Joins: h3h_ (bfults@70.95.237.98)
# [15:37] * Quits: h3h (bfults@70.95.237.98) (Connection reset by peer)
# [15:55] * Quits: Stefan (Stefan@193.171.131.244) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
# [16:02] * Joins: chaals (chaals@89.202.240.147)
# [16:03] * Quits: h3h_ (bfults@70.95.237.98) (Quit: h3h_)
# [16:03] <schnitz> hey chaals :-)
# [16:08] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [16:09] <chaals> hey schnitz
# [16:09] * chaals in amsterdam airport...
# [16:09] <chaals> on way to madrid.
# [16:09] <schnitz> chaals, ah cool, business or holidays?
# [16:10] <chaals> weekend...
# [16:10] <gsnedders> (if holidays, can I come?)
# [16:10] <schnitz> chaals, excellent :-) Have a good time, pal!
# [16:10] <chaals> gsnedders, just give me a ring.
# [16:11] * gsnedders sighs… too much school work :(
# [16:11] <chaals> (If you can't find a phone number for me on the web, then no, you're not welcome... but it isn't that hard)
# [16:11] <chaals> planning on one.
# [16:11] * schnitz is doing to Berlin from Sunday to Tuesday too, half-business, looking forward to it... :-)
# [16:11] <schnitz> gna...
# [16:11] <schnitz> s/doing/going
# [16:11] <schnitz> :-)
# [16:12] <gsnedders> I just managed to get all the coursework that's meant to be done over 2 years in 1 month. Illness sucks.
# [16:12] <gsnedders> now I just have the rest of the work that I haven't done to catch up :\
# [16:16] * Joins: NicolasLG (me@86.214.163.204)
# [16:20] <anne> wtf is this Gavin Pearce going on about
# [16:20] <anne> oh well
# [16:20] <anne> not my problem
# [16:21] <@DanC> let's see... before I let french business hours slip away... is Daniel G around? hmm... I don't see him
# [16:24] * @DanC tries him by phone; loses. :-/
# [16:26] * Joins: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234)
# [16:30] * chaals points out that france only has about 3 business hours a week (then hides)
# [16:30] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [16:30] * chaals waves goodbye for now...
# [16:30] * Quits: chaals (chaals@89.202.240.147) (Quit: chaals)
# [16:31] * Joins: chaals (chaals@89.202.240.147)
# [16:31] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [16:33] * Quits: chaals (chaals@89.202.240.147) (Quit: chaals)
# [16:53] * Quits: eric_daspet (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Quit: Quitte)
# [16:56] * Joins: tylerr (tylerr@66.195.32.2)
# [16:57] <smedero> agreed, anne. I'm not sure what Gavin P is proposing... but he would seem to be against using the mailing list and IRC for communication.
# [16:57] <tylerr> Morning (for some) everyone. :)
# [16:57] <hasather> evening
# [16:59] <jmb> smedero: it seems to me as if he's shifted his position on both of those. I'm not entirely sure what he's actually after, though
# [17:00] <h3h> I can't believe phpBB was mentioned in a serious tone
# [17:00] <smedero> I wonder if some of the anti-mailing list folks just aren't use to the traffic volume (and I'd consider this list still fairly low traffic at the moment) and of course it is always hard to tell that "leader has spoken" in an email thread (one of the chairs, etc) so perhaps they feel the group is a bit chaotic at the moment.
# [17:00] <smedero> but yeah, I don't see how phpBB would help at all.
# [17:00] <smedero> heh.
# [17:01] <anne> I didn't like mailing lists either when I was like 16 or so iirc.
# [17:01] <h3h> :)
# [17:01] <smedero> heh
# [17:01] <anne> Back then I also wondered why the W3C didn't have a forum.
# [17:02] <tylerr> I didn't like mailing lists until Gmail came along.
# [17:02] <h3h> indeed, conversation view is crucial
# [17:02] <h3h> though Outlook 2003 had that IIRC
# [17:02] <smedero> Well that's the thing though. IRC and Email have the widest client-side software support... for translation, accessibility and configurability.
# [17:03] <smedero> so gmail helps you navigate the threads, etc. everyone works different.
# [17:03] * tylerr nods.
# [17:03] <tylerr> I'm partial to Campfire but that costs a fee to run a room.
# [17:04] <h3h> a very modest fee, but yes
# [17:04] <smedero> a web forum won't push the Microsoft patent review along any faster... and I think that what is more or less making the group feel restless.
# [17:04] * Quits: NicolasLG (me@86.214.163.204) (Ping timeout)
# [17:05] <h3h> and Campfire maxes out at 60 people, so it's not really an option
# [17:05] <tylerr> Exactly.
# [17:05] <tylerr> Not sure why they max it out, performance issues?
# [17:06] <h3h> likely
# [17:06] <h3h> or maybe they've simply never had a request for more
# [17:06] <tylerr> It is possible though that we might approach them and could have a room donated for use.
# [17:07] <tylerr> Since this is a non-profit endeavor that strikes quite near and dear to well, every web author. :)
# [17:07] <h3h> possible, though I think we'd have to have a majority here wanting to move to Campfire
# [17:07] * tylerr agrees.
# [17:07] <anne> all descisions will have to be taken on the mailing list anyway
# [17:08] <h3h> indeed
# [17:08] <anne> having lists, forums, wikis, irc, campfire outside that is fine
# [17:08] <h3h> I think a shorter path to success will be a wiki/pastebin/dropbox with URLs that can be shared on IRC
# [17:08] <anne> but people can't be expected to follow all that
# [17:08] <h3h> right. see my reply to that thread
# [17:08] <tylerr> There are those whom find IRC completely fine, myself included. I just enjoy the updated aspects of campfire like inline images, file sharing, and a very organized log history.
# [17:09] <tylerr> And there are multiple rooms per account.
# [17:09] * anne deleted the whole thread as it isn't his problem
# [17:09] <h3h> hah :)
# [17:10] <h3h> choice quote: "I want to emphasize that there should be single points of interaction
# [17:10] <h3h> for each type of medium -- fragmentation and confusion will make the
# [17:10] <h3h> operations of this WG orders of magnitude more difficult. My proposal
# [17:10] <h3h> is: one mailing list for proposals and decisions, one chat channel for
# [17:10] <h3h> brainstorming and quick discussion, and one wiki for collection and
# [17:10] <h3h> recording of ideas."
# [17:10] <h3h> uh. damnit Colloquy. sorry.
# [17:12] <tylerr> One of the reasons I went back to X-Chat Aqua. :)
# [17:13] <smedero> tylerr: hrm, in theory wouldn't they both use the same... Cocoa NSTextInput widget?
# [17:13] <h3h> yeah. I've flipped between them restlessly for the last several months
# [17:13] <smedero> though maybe it is better at scrubbing clipboard text.
# [17:13] <h3h> smedero: it's how they handle linebreaks in the input
# [17:13] <tylerr> smedero: That's why, the ugly clipboard stuff.
# [17:14] <smedero> i've just about globally swapped Paste and Paste As Plain Text in Mac OS X
# [17:15] <smedero> or whatever the menu entries tend to be
# [17:18] <h3h> anyway, my concern is that members unfamiliar with the W3C process will attempt to take this WG in wasteful directions and jeopardize the output of the group
# [17:18] <h3h> I think it's better if the Chair or someone else in a position to do so sets forth the guidelines for group interaction and we stick with it
# [17:19] <tylerr> Sure. I'm completely unfamiliar so I'm sort of on the sidelines for a while until I learn the process and such.
# [17:19] <tylerr> I'll provide input and such, but I won't be gunning for a revolution. ;)
# [17:20] <h3h> that's downright reasonable of you
# [17:20] <tylerr> I'd hope everyone is like that. :)
# [17:21] * Quits: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12) (Ping timeout)
# [17:22] <tylerr> I was wondering though if when this officially kicks off, we'll be joining smaller teams to work on specific parts of the spec?
# [17:23] <h3h> the only official smaller team I know of is the Forms Task Force
# [17:24] <tylerr> Ah okay. So I'd assume we'll be starting off with an audit of 4.01?
# [17:24] <tylerr> Seeing what works, what doesn't, and what could after tweaking.
# [17:24] <h3h> that's one of the issue up for discussion :)
# [17:24] <tylerr> Lovely.
# [17:24] <tylerr> :)
# [17:24] <h3h> whether to start with HTML4 purely, or take WHAT WG's HTML5 and prune
# [17:26] <tylerr> I'm one of those "wipe the slate clean" fellows, but I understand a basic need to revisit what's already been done and learn from it.
# [17:26] <h3h> I doubt whether there are any major *useful* features that haven't already been considered, filtered, and thought of in the WHAT WG, so I think starting with HTML5 is the sensible route
# [17:26] <smedero> which indirectly requires Microsoft to finish their patent policy review AFAIK.
# [17:26] <h3h> "starting with" meaning "going through, feature by feature and justifying/discussing/analyzing/re-writing if necessary"
# [17:26] <tylerr> Exactly.
# [17:27] * Joins: Stefan (Stefan@193.171.131.244)
# [17:28] * Joins: quaiz (quaiz@66.162.32.234)
# [17:29] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [17:29] <hsivonen> I agree with jgraham's assessment that not starting with WHATWG's work would be "extreme folly"
# [17:29] <tylerr> I noticed there were still instances of <i> and <b> in HTML5 as "last resort". I'm wondering why they should be included.
# [17:29] <hsivonen> tylerr: because forcing people not to think in terms of bold and italic is futile
# [17:29] <tylerr> Heh
# [17:30] <h3h> I think Hixie proposed that they be kept in an explicit "For WYSIWYG editors" section
# [17:30] <tylerr> Too many people too familiar with word processors. ;)
# [17:30] <tylerr> Ah, so for things like Rich Text editors and the like?
# [17:30] <h3h> righ
# [17:30] <hsivonen> also, techinically, there's absolutely no difference with "i".equals(localName) and "em".equals(localName)
# [17:30] <h3h> right.
# [17:31] <h3h> not sure what you mean by localName
# [17:31] <tylerr> Huh, interesting hsivonen. So the semantic reasoning behind <em> is simply that; semantic reasoning. :)
# [17:31] <hsivonen> the idea that thinks magically get better if you compare with the string "em" instead of comparing with "i" is totally bogus
# [17:32] <h3h> I don't think the argument is over the string used. it's the semantic meaning
# [17:32] <hsivonen> tylerr: you can define it as emphasis but call the element "i" :-)
# [17:32] <h3h> "emphasis" is semantically different from "italic"
# [17:32] <tylerr> Sure.
# [17:32] <hsivonen> h3h: there's no spoon
# [17:32] <h3h> the latter being a purely typographical concept
# [17:32] <hsivonen> you can define "i" as emphasis
# [17:32] <h3h> sure
# [17:32] <tylerr> h3h: Exactly. And it seems we're shooting for a more semantic web where code has meaning.
# [17:33] <tylerr> Beyond the display of said code.
# [17:33] <h3h> yep
# [17:33] * hsivonen looks up this stuff in the WHATWG archives
# [17:33] <h3h> heh. I abstained from those WHATWG threads. headache-inducing
# [17:33] <hsivonen> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-January/009060.html
# [17:34] <tylerr> <dialog> is an interesting one as well, especially in terms of screen reader and other text-to-voice UAs.
# [17:35] <tylerr> Will screen readers take the <dt> and <dd> and read them as true definitions, or would the parent <dialog> indicate to the reader that it should switch to a more conversational-mode?
# [17:36] <tylerr> I suppose that would be up to the screen reader software and not the way we implement it. :)
# [17:36] <smedero> henri, that post was an excellent analysis of the state of affairs. while I respect mpt's position greatly I don't think an education campaign will have the desired impact either.
# [17:37] <hsivonen> tylerr: most often speculation about screen readers is just speculation :-(
# [17:38] <tylerr> Aye, accessibility is still unaccessible to many. :(
# [17:38] <h3h> that's an interesting issue actually -- do we have any usability experts in the WG (specifically experienced with screen readers)?
# [17:38] <h3h> that seems like a good thing to have
# [17:38] <h3h> s/usability/accessibility/
# [17:39] <smedero> t.v. raman for one.
# [17:39] <tylerr> My undergraduate program was human-computer interaction, and while my emphasis was accessibility, I didn't have much experience with them.
# [17:39] <tylerr> But I do consider myself well-versed in accessibility and would enjoy offering insight and opinions on the matters when they come up.
# [17:39] <h3h> I'd be willing to say that accessibility should be an official step in the process of any given feature
# [17:40] * tylerr nods.
# [17:40] <smedero> It would appear Joe Clark isn't on the list of participants and given his rather public comments about WCAG it is unlikely he'll join.
# [17:41] <h3h> I'm not sure how the WHATWG spec rates on accessibility. haven't read it with that hat on...
# [17:41] <tylerr> Very true. I read that article about his rejection of the W3's accessibility efforts.
# [17:41] <tylerr> Well, when we perform our audit of the spec, I'll be sure to donn that hat. ;)
# [17:42] <h3h> indeed
# [17:43] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
# [17:44] <h3h> I'm hoping Microsoft will finally treat HTML as a medium like TCP/IP -- something to be agreed upon and used in a compatible, sustainable fashion -- rather than a place for proprietary lock-in and profit generation
# [17:45] <tylerr> I'd love to get Molly Holzschlag in here.
# [17:46] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
# [17:46] <schnitz> tylerr, thats a great idea, me too!
# [17:46] <schnitz> tylerr, contact her?
# [17:46] <h3h> yeah, that seems relevant
# [17:47] <tylerr> Sure. I work very closely with MS, I can shoot her an e-mail.
# [17:47] <schnitz> tylerr, I surely can try and get in touch with her, we've been friends for a long time...
# [17:47] <smedero> She's got a link to Ian's how-to (for joining)
# [17:47] <smedero> so I wonder if she's in queue already. heh.
# [17:47] <smedero> still, no point in not reaching out.
# [17:47] <smedero> erm, double negative. sigh.
# [17:47] <hsivonen> surely she can't join before the MS lawyer give the green light
# [17:47] <tylerr> Oh nice schnitz, you might have better luck than as I've never talked to her. I just live about 3 miles from Redmond's campus.
# [17:47] <h3h> yeah, I'm sure she's in the same boat as Chris Wilson and whoever else
# [17:48] <tylerr> Exactly.
# [17:48] <smedero> Oh, is she still at MS?
# [17:48] <tylerr> Conflict of interest.
# [17:48] <smedero> ahh.
# [17:48] <h3h> she's consulting for MS
# [17:48] <tylerr> Not sure smedero, she was here Monday.
# [17:48] <schnitz> tylerr, ok you go for it, lemme know, I'll be happy to persuade her if nothin' happens
# [17:48] <tylerr> Sure thing schnitz. I'll draft up an e-mail this afternoon.
# [17:48] <tylerr> I've got about 50 TechNet pages to beautify before then. ;)
# [17:50] <tylerr> If she's still in town I'll take her out for coffee, haha.
# [17:51] <schnitz> wow
# [17:51] <schnitz> I was searching flickr
# [17:52] <schnitz> look
# [17:52] <schnitz> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/107626281_fec8149dc3.jpg?v=0
# [17:52] <schnitz> didn't know molly was great taking fotos :-)
# [17:52] <schnitz> or this is the better link I guess
# [17:52] <schnitz> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mollyeh11/107626281/
# [17:52] <tylerr> She's one of those jill-of-all-trades. ;)
# [17:53] <schnitz> :-)
# [17:53] <schnitz> I'm the guy in the blue shirt, BTW
# [17:54] <tylerr> Haha!
# [17:54] <schnitz> ;-)
# [17:54] <tylerr> If you ever see a picture of me it'd be with an umbrella, this being Seattle and all. ;)
# [17:55] <schnitz> yeah, those are fotos of the W3C TechPlenary in Mandelieu last Year Spring
# [17:55] <tylerr> Very nice!
# [17:55] <schnitz> tylerr, where I normally live the weather is typically bad too :-)
# [17:55] <tylerr> I haven't been to Europe in... 10 years!
# [17:57] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [17:58] <hsivonen> grr. Flickr changed the salting of originals
# [17:58] <hsivonen> my bookmarklet no longer works
# [17:59] <smedero> though Joe Clark isn't here, this blog entry speaks for his position I suppose (skipping some of his post): http://blog.fawny.org/2006/10/28/tbl-html#TBL-smallfixes-2006.10.28
# [18:00] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [18:00] <tylerr> That's a bit of a brow-beating he's giving.
# [18:01] <tylerr> Does he suggest a digg.com style way of making HTML5? Where everyone votes on the top elements in a socially constructed manor? hehe
# [18:01] <smedero> Yeah, I'm not pushing his position... just thought it might be of interest to some.
# [18:01] <tylerr> *manner
# [18:02] <krijnh> *highlight*
# [18:02] <krijnh> Playboy manor?
# [18:02] <krijnh> ;]
# [18:02] <smedero> ironically that is socially constructed in a sense.
# [18:03] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [18:03] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
# [18:05] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [18:07] <tylerr> hah!
# [18:12] * Quits: Stefan (Stefan@193.171.131.244) (Ping timeout)
# [18:13] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [18:14] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [18:15] <schnitz> well, looking at Joer Clark's post, folks against the W3C are as old as the W3C itself
# [18:15] <schnitz> Joe Clark
# [18:15] <schnitz> I remember many years ago, there was even someone from a big company being officially paid to "destroy" W3C :-)
# [18:17] <Mallory> Another Start-Up.
# [18:19] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.82.206.111)
# [18:19] <schnitz> hi anne :-)
# [18:19] <anne> good evening
# [18:19] <schnitz> Mallory, don't quite understand, another start-up, in what regard?
# [18:20] * anne changes topic to 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ (logged)'
# [18:20] <Mallory> I was refering to those start-ups which were paid to do �nothing usefull�.
# [18:20] <Mallory> Some years ago.
# [18:21] <schnitz> Mallory, you mean what I just said? Well, in this case, the guy was paid from a major company, not a startup
# [18:22] <schnitz> Mallory, but start-ups tend to have some disruptive notion too, yes :-)
# [18:22] <Mallory> Oh, sorry. I didn't see, you said �someone�.
# [18:22] <Mallory> It's time to sleep, good night #html-wg.
# [18:22] <schnitz> Mallory, nite :-)
# [18:23] * Quits: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86) (Quit: Quit)
# [18:24] <tylerr> Evening anne.
# [18:24] <anne> nn
# [18:24] <tylerr> Night Mallory.
# [18:26] <anne> Reading the logs, I don't see any reason why MS couldn't join this channel.
# [18:26] <tylerr> I'd love them to.
# [18:26] <tylerr> They're really starting to open up more.
# [18:27] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
# [18:28] <schnitz> tylerr, yes, MS opening up is a very good thing indeed
# [18:28] <schnitz> and I am very curious too
# [18:28] <schnitz> as long as MS doesn't implement XHTML2 nor HTML5, both have failed :-)
# [18:29] <tylerr> I'm working internally at my company right now to embrace standards and accessibility. We're one of MS's top vendors so I'm hoping education and evangelizing interally with start to become infectious with the work we do with them.
# [18:30] <schnitz> tylerr, sounds like a mission, more power to you, however I really think this has to come the from the inside of MS, a have little hope you can influence them from the outside
# [18:30] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.82.206.111) (Ping timeout)
# [18:31] <tylerr> Sure, that's why we need to get Molly in here since she's consulting internally.
# [18:31] <schnitz> yes, agreed
# [18:32] <schnitz> alright
# [18:32] <tylerr> I can do my (small) part to work with our MS clients on today's accessibility and standards, but you're right in that I will have a minimal impact on development of their browser implementations.
# [18:32] <schnitz> calling it a day, will start the weekend by perhaps going to a open stage jam session and playing some music... :-)
# [18:33] <tylerr> Lovely!
# [18:33] <tylerr> Hope you have a smashing weekend.
# [18:33] <schnitz> tylerr, thanks you too! :-)
# [18:33] * schnitz is now known as schnitZzz
# [18:37] * Quits: matt (fire4x@84.9.127.20) (Quit: matt)
# [18:55] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [19:06] * Parts: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [19:23] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [19:41] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [19:49] * Joins: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.180.242)
# [19:57] * Quits: preston (chatzilla@70.181.71.135) (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000])
# [20:14] * Quits: smedero (smedero@158.130.16.191) (Ping timeout)
# [20:16] * Parts: AnPol (chatzilla@85.118.224.254)
# [20:16] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [20:21] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [20:38] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242)
# [20:59] * Joins: smedero (smedero@207.245.69.145)
# [20:59] * Quits: smedero (smedero@207.245.69.145) (Quit: later suckers)
# [21:10] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [21:13] <mjs> hello
# [21:15] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
# [21:15] <@DanC> hi mjs
# [21:18] <mjs> hi DanC
# [21:19] <@DanC> are you interested in an HTML WG meeting around XTech?
# [21:25] <mjs> well, I won't be there at XTech, so it would mean extra travel, but I would make sure at least one person from Apple could show up
# [21:25] <mjs> I have also asked my management if Apple could host an f2f
# [21:29] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [21:35] * Joins: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245)
# [21:41] * @DanC got distracted...
# [21:41] <@DanC> ah! at least one person from apple... great.
# [21:41] <@DanC> and thanks for looking into hosting
# [21:44] <gsnedders> if there is a meeting around XTech, depending on the date, I may be able to get over to Paris, as I'm actually then on study leave near the end of my exams (which is why the date rather matters, as long as it doesn't hit the 16th, the only day around XTech I have an exam, I'll probably try and get out there)
# [21:45] <@DanC> I lean toward May 14-15
# [21:45] <@DanC> I'm waiting to hear back from glaz before I propose it widely
# [21:46] <gsnedders> I really need a whole day to get out there (and back), and the physics exam is one I could do with more revision for…
# [21:46] <@DanC> ah. tricky
# [21:47] <gsnedders> two physics exams on one day, first at 9am, so I really have to be here the day before
# [21:47] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [21:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [21:54] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [21:59] <@DanC> you could come for just the 1st day, May 14, maybe, gsnedders
# [21:59] <gsnedders> I don't really think it's worth going for a single day… I don't have any exams before then till…
# [22:00] <gsnedders> hah! 9th! French!
# [22:01] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
# [22:02] <gsnedders> I dunno. May go down a few days before, but if I go at all I'll be there on the 14th
# [22:02] <@DanC> here's hoping
# [22:03] <gsnedders> I better not travel on a Sunday anyway… Knowing Britain there will be work on the railways :P
# [22:09] <hsivonen> DanC: wasn't the meeting supposed to be at the same time as XTech (that is, in the evening after the conference stuff)
# [22:10] <hsivonen> ?
# [22:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: well, the 15th would be the same time
# [22:10] <hsivonen> my flights are already booked and paid and I'll be arriving to Paris on May 15th
# [22:11] <@DanC> in the evening? gee... I never thought of doing it that way
# [22:11] <hsivonen> DanC: I'm arriving around lunch time
# [22:12] <@DanC> "at the same time as XTech" is kinda ambiguous, I guess. That's why we're supposed to nail this stuff down 8 weeks in advance. (at least to the resolution of calendar days and airports)
# [22:13] <hsivonen> DanC: I said this already in the email a week and a half ago
# [22:13] <gsnedders> just over 6 weeks :P
# [22:13] <hsivonen> my flight is scheduled to land at 11:30 at CDG
# [22:16] <@DanC> hsivonen, I'm sorry; I haven't digested all the details from all the email I've gotten in the last couple weeks. Which message was it? I don't see it in the archive at a glance.
# [22:17] <hsivonen> DanC: it was in the thread about me being reclassified as a non-Invited Expert
# [22:17] <@DanC> oh. that stuff is a blur. sorry.
# [22:17] <@DanC> I have literally hundreds of messages of that sort
# [22:18] <@DanC> ah... but I see it now... back then I was thinking "It would be good to squeeze in a teleconference or 2 between now and 20 March in order to discuss that meeting venue."
# [22:19] * @DanC hopes things don't stay this messy much longer
# [22:19] <mjs> DanC: I could probably arrange for Apple to host something in June or late May
# [22:20] <hsivonen> my guess is that for people who have already made XTech travel arrangements, the 14th is probably worse than staying a while longer on the 18th
# [22:20] <hsivonen> but if it is on the 16th or 17th, everyone who came for XTech will be in town for sure
# [22:21] <@DanC> but on 16/17/18, people will want to attend the conference sessions, no? some are presenting, even
# [22:21] <hsivonen> I meant after the sessions
# [22:22] <gsnedders> what time do they end?
# [22:22] <@DanC> really? that doesn't seem workable, to me. after the sessions everybody heads for the bar etc., usually.
# [22:22] <hsivonen> (personally, I'll be flying back in the morning of the 22th, so meeting right after XTech would not be a problem for me)
# [22:23] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [22:23] <@DanC> mjs, June on the US West coast is an interesting possibility
# [22:23] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [22:23] <@DanC> I'm already going to Banff for WWW2007 in May, so this whole XTech thing is pretty crazy for me.
# [22:24] <@DanC> hsivonen, I'd appreciate it if you'd put your constraints and suggestions in email and/or in the survey form.
# [22:25] <hsivonen> DanC: I'll modify the survey result
# [22:25] <@DanC> email to public-html, that is,
# [22:25] <@DanC> great
# [22:26] <@DanC> and mjs, feel free to follow up in the meeting hosting thread
# [22:26] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Ping timeout)
# [22:26] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [22:26] <@DanC> I have some vague memory that google was interested to host too; I was hoping they'd chime in on the meeting hosting thread.
# [22:31] <hsivonen> DanC: I updated the questionnaire answer. Shall I also post to the list?
# [22:32] <@DanC> umm... I guess so, especially if you want to bring it to glazou's attention
# [22:32] <hsivonen> ok
# [22:32] <@DanC> also, I'd like to hear from dbaron if other moz folks are likely to attend
# [22:35] <dbaron> I'm really not sure.
# [22:36] <@DanC> ah. SOTD
# [22:37] <dbaron> eh?
# [22:37] <@DanC> speak of the devil, or status of this document
# [22:38] <@DanC> dbaron, does having apple host in June sound attractive?
# [22:38] <dbaron> Traveling really cuts in to the amount of other work I can get done, and I'm not otherwise planning on XTech (nor, I think, is anyone else from here).
# [22:38] <dbaron> Apple's certainly easier to get to
# [22:38] <@DanC> yes, travel competes with work bigtime.
# [22:39] <dbaron> I'm honestly not sure how meetings of this group would work, or how useful they'd b.
# [22:39] <dbaron> be
# [22:39] <gsnedders> anywhere outside of western Europe isn't an option for me
# [22:40] <@DanC> I'll do my best to make it worth your time. I'm pretty confident having apple, mozilla, IE, and opera talking about the future of HTML (with lots of other folks too) is worth a few day's time.
# [22:41] <dbaron> I'm also not sure who out of the Mozilla people on the list would go to such a meeting.
# [22:41] * Parts: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [22:41] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# [22:42] <@DanC> I could use some clues about Mozilla... how many Mozilla people are there? I suppose there are various ways to count.
# [22:43] <mjs> DanC: didn't want to offer on the list until I have approval to make the offer - I'll bug my management
# [22:43] <hsivonen> email sent to list
# [22:43] <@DanC> Is the HTML parser in mozilla something that nobody touches for fear of screwing it up? or is it actively developed with lots of good regression tests?
# [22:43] <@DanC> great, mjs
# [22:44] <hsivonen> DanC: Robert Sayre is touching it.
# [22:44] <@DanC> does Mozilla track HTML5 features with any predicatibility? or does it depend on somebody getting a wild hair?
# [22:44] <dbaron> Mozilla's HTML parser is definitely the former
# [22:45] * @DanC learns to spell... predictability
# [22:45] <dbaron> tracking of features is probably somewhere in the middle
# [22:46] <@DanC> are there "shall we schedule work on HTML 5 feature #123?" discussions in weekly planning meetings or anything like that?
# [22:46] <dbaron> no
# [22:46] <@DanC> ok
# [22:46] <dbaron> but somebody might raise a particular feature as being important
# [22:46] <hsivonen> (after looking at the HTML content sink, I'm really hoping for a fresh HTML5 parser. but not my call)
# [22:47] <dbaron> and that type of planning is at a lower frequency than weekly
# [22:48] <@DanC> my goal is to figure out that planning frequency and harmonize it with the HTML WG ftf meeting frequency (2/year)
# [22:48] <@DanC> (I expect to establish a bit of a weekly or bi-weekly HTML WG heartbeat too.)
# [22:51] <@DanC> where would somebody raise a feature as being important? just any old somebody in bugzilla? or is there a smaller group of somebodys?
# [22:55] <@DanC> sigh... the organizers of an event I'm speaking at just took the bio from my homepage, put it in a word document, mailed it to me, and asked me to approve it.
# [22:56] <@DanC> what is it that causes people to do such things?
# [23:02] <mjs> I don't think feature planning frequency for browsers needs to line up with f2fs
# [23:03] <mjs> for what it's worth, for Safari we do one overall feature plan per release, but we constantly refine it and small features often get in without being on any plan
# [23:03] <mjs> plus we have non-Apple contributors to WebKit who are not subject to our planning
# [23:08] <gsnedders> mjs: features being both WebKit and Safari features?
# [23:11] <mjs> gsnedders: yes
# [23:14] * Joins: marcos_ (chatzilla@203.206.31.102)
# [23:17] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [23:20] <@DanC> not line up exactly; just harmonize in some interesting way
# [23:22] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
# [23:28] * Quits: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.180.242) (Quit: kingryan)
# [23:29] * Joins: bewest (ben@209.237.236.227)
# [23:42] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
# [23:54] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:54] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.40.94)
# Session Close: Sat Mar 24 00:00:00 2007

The end :)