/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-03-27 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Mar 27 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [01:09] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "black in only is assumed" – black ink, surely?
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# [06:07] * Topic is 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ (logged)'
# [06:07] * Set by anne on Fri Mar 23 18:23:57
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# [06:45] <Lachy_> it's ironic that the most vocal people on the list are those complaining about the amount of traffic :-)
# [06:52] <Hixie> statistically it's most likely that the people sending the most comments are the ones going to complain :-)
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# [07:08] <Lachy_> Hey Hixie, we really need to do something to improve image maps.
# [07:09] <Lachy_> when you get up to writing that section, of course
# [07:09] * Lachy_ just had to implement an image map by positioning <a> with CSS cause image maps are too limited
# [07:11] <mjs> the problem is, what you really want instead of image maps is hit testing of arbitrary vector shapes
# [07:11] <mjs> including possibly transparent ones
# [07:12] <mjs> and once you start going there, you kind of end up with svg
# [07:15] <mjs> or with something like dbaron's CSS-VG idea
# [07:16] <Hixie> i thought i'd finished image maps
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# [10:29] <anne> This Mike Schinkel complains about too much e-mail and then he sends another six e-mails to the list...
# [10:31] <hsivonen> I don't the wiki helping, but I try to shut up for now about it on the list
# [10:32] <mjs> discussing real issues may reduce discussion of bullshit non-issues
# [10:32] <hsivonen> I don't *see* the wiki helping...
# [10:32] <mjs> the way <video> discussion has somewhat reduced background chatter on whatwg list
# [10:32] <mjs> but it probably won't reduce total mail volum
# [10:32] <mjs> e
# [10:33] <mjs> I really would like to note down some general design principles to use when evaluating new features
# [10:33] <mjs> I think that ontologically precedes test cases and user stories
# [10:33] <mjs> I think there is rough consensus around a core set of principles but it is good to have something to point to
# [10:34] <mjs> especially for the few who disagree with core principles and therefore might not be satisfied with any result from the group
# [10:34] <hsivonen> real vs. bs pretty much blocks on MS lawyers. I wonder if Chris Wilson will join the telecon. if not, I'd expect the telecon to be similarly blocked
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# [10:36] <mjs> yes, most of the people with real issues are waiting for him
# [10:37] <anne> well, the reason this WG started is largely because of MS I think
# [10:37] <mjs> that and to have a reasonable framework to handle patents
# [10:38] <mjs> I would support continuing it even if MS flakes out
# [10:38] <mjs> on the other hand, a lot of W3C members with large patent portfolios have also not joined yet
# [10:39] <hsivonen> It would be great if the IBM AC rep allowed Sam Ruby to join
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# [10:39] <mjs> Sam Ruby wants to join but doesn't have permission?
# [10:39] <mjs> or is that a guess?
# [10:40] <hsivonen> mjs: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/03/07/Open-Invitation#c1173393798
# [10:41] <hsivonen> the way I read this is that he wanted to join, but the W3C did not let him join as an individual (I wasn't allowed, either) and the IBM AC rep has not given permission
# [10:42] <mjs> it's unclear if he has asked the IBM AC rep
# [10:42] <anne> hsivonen, you were not allowed to join as individual?
# [10:42] <mjs> it is clear that he wasn't allowed to join as an individual
# [10:42] <hsivonen> mjs: well, yeah
# [10:42] <mjs> IBM is officially pro-XHTML2
# [10:42] <hsivonen> anne: I have a financial relationship with a Member, so yeah
# [10:43] <mjs> but I don't know how strong the internal politics on that are
# [10:43] <anne> I think they're pretty strong XForms-focused and XML web like
# [10:43] <hsivonen> anne: except the Atom guys
# [10:43] <anne> Atom is XML focused
# [10:43] <hsivonen> anne: markp even left to Google over this
# [10:43] <anne> yup
# [10:44] * anne was going to say that
# [10:44] <mjs> was markp formerly an IBM employee?
# [10:44] <hsivonen> I wonder if Google will be paying him for Gecko WF 2.0 accessibility work that IBM didn't let him be involved with
# [10:44] <hsivonen> mjs: yes
# [10:45] <mjs> I hope Google lets markp join the HTMLWG
# [10:45] <hsivonen> mjs: see wiki history about him withdrawing from Gecko WF 2.0 accessibility
# [10:45] <mjs> I did not realize the extent of IBM's partisanship in this matter
# [10:53] <marcos__> mjs: why don't we bash out the design principles now?
# [10:54] <mjs> marcos__: I wouldn't mind, I could post more about them, but I feel bad undermining DanC's attempt to set agenda and steer the conversation
# [10:54] <mjs> I think besides DBTW the other big one is Degrade Gracefully
# [10:55] <mjs> which is basically the opposite: let content using the new stuff work reasonably in old browsers
# [10:55] <mjs> others would be general feel-goodism without as many obvious consequences
# [10:55] <marcos__> I don't think it is a problem for us to do that here. At least we can then have a document to disucss.
# [10:55] <mjs> like Avoid Needless Complexity
# [10:56] <mjs> then there is the hierarchy of cost, which is difficulty for end user matters more than difficulty for content author matters more than difficulty for browser maker matters more than difficulty for spec editor
# [10:57] <mjs> (although these aren't always in conflict, as making it easy for the author to do the right thing often helps users, and making rules in the spec simple so that browsers can implement them readily helps authors through improving interoperability, etc)
# [10:58] <mjs> this will all seem like obvious stuff to whatwg people
# [10:58] <marcos__> Yeah, but like you said, it would be helpful to have a document to point to
# [10:58] <mjs> one could also say Solve Real Problems, which implies that architecture astronauts are not welcome
# [10:59] <krijnh> Isn't this already what the current WHATWG specs are doing/saying?
# [10:59] <mjs> but also implies that actual problems should in fact be addressed
# [10:59] <anne> krijnh, yeah
# [10:59] <mjs> krijnh: yes
# [10:59] <anne> krijnh, but having it written down somewhere might help new people
# [10:59] <mjs> I'm just stating the implicit design principles explicitly
# [10:59] <mjs> it helps new people and it gives old people something to point to
# [10:59] <mjs> I could write this up on the wiki I guess
# [11:00] <mjs> does anyone have anything to add to my list?
# [11:00] <marcos__> exacly.
# [11:00] <krijnh> New people should read the entire WA spec :)
# [11:00] <mjs> and what's the htmlwg wiki url again?
# [11:00] <krijnh> *draft
# [11:00] <mjs> krijnh: I don't think reading the spec necessarily tells you what principles informed it, unless you are unusually perceptive
# [11:01] <marcos__> I guess http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/
# [11:04] <krijnh> mjs: Isn't the spec a good place for those principles then?
# [11:04] <marcos__> I guess the new design principles need to go beyond the obvious (eg. accesibility, internationalization, etc)... more into the kind of things that gave rise to the WHATWG? Having a real language for web apps, not web documents
# [11:04] <marcos__> krijnh, probably, but lets just bash some more of them out.
# [11:05] <marcos__> We can decide what we do with them later
# [11:05] <mjs> krijnh: accessibility and internationalization might be worth mentioning, if there is a pithy principle to state that gives rise to actual consequences
# [11:05] <hsivonen> I hope internationalization will be understood as enabling publication in all world language instead of equalizing writing systems by prohibiting features that don't apply to all of them. (see italics)
# [11:06] <mjs> has anyone argued for banning italics on that basis?
# [11:06] <marcos__> msj, I guess then we include the W3C's core principles, plus security
# [11:07] <hsivonen> mjs: one of the common argument in favor of purportedly semantic elements and against <i> is that italics is not applicable to all scripts
# [11:07] <marcos__> lets reword hsivonen's statement as the internationalization principle :)
# [11:07] * hsivonen drops "s"s today
# [11:10] <marcos__> What can we say about security?
# [11:10] <anne> that it should be defined?
# [11:11] <hsivonen> and that it is pointless to propose features that would violate browser security models that have been put in place as a necessity against previous attack vectors
# [11:12] <marcos__> Anne, define "define"?
# [11:12] <marcos__> *defined
# [11:12] <marcos__> to what extent, as a design principle should it be defined?
# [11:13] <anne> no, the spec should define the security model
# [11:13] <anne> the design principle should not stand in the way of that I guess
# [11:13] <anne> but also what hsivonen said
# [11:16] <mjs> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [11:16] <marcos__> What about the use of HTML as a platform for web apps as well as for document publishing?
# [11:16] <mjs> I started typing some up
# [11:17] <mjs> my format is a title, a link to a page with a possibly longer description, and a short description and justification
# [11:17] <mjs> the name of Prefer Users Over Authors Over Vendors Over Specs is too long
# [11:17] <mjs> maybe it should be several principles
# [11:17] <marcos__> User centric design ?
# [11:17] <anne> mjs, rename it "hierarchy of cost"
# [11:17] <marcos__> User-driven design?
# [11:18] <hsivonen> marcos__: would XForms Transitional qualify as User-driven in your book?
# [11:18] <marcos__> LOL!! no way
# [11:18] <mjs> XForms Transitional is meant to be helping authors
# [11:18] <mjs> (as I understand it)
# [11:18] <hsivonen> the common man
# [11:18] <hsivonen> slash woman
# [11:19] <krijnh> The common man doesn't have a backend
# [11:19] <krijnh> slash woman
# [11:19] <krijnh> Although some common men have women
# [11:19] <marcos__> hehe
# [11:20] <marcos__> User driven (for me) = based on user needs, or as is currently practiced by people in the wild
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# [11:21] <marcos__> What else?
# [11:23] <marcos__> here are the words from W3c in 7 points: "Universal Access, Semantic Web, Trust, Interoperability, Evolvability, Decentralization, cooler multimedia" )
# [11:23] * marcos__ just brainstorming...
# [11:24] <marcos__> I guess "Solve Real Problems" covers my statement about web as platform
# [11:24] <marcos__> It puts things like datagrids in scope
# [11:25] <anne> Semantic Web is prolly not in scope
# [11:25] <mjs> updated
# [11:25] <mjs> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [11:25] <anne> doesn't solve real problems :p
# [11:25] <mjs> so things that you guys have mentioned which should be added:
# [11:25] <marcos__> hehe, anne, what about microformats? and predefined class names
# [11:26] <mjs> internationalization, accessibility, security, semantics(?)
# [11:26] <anne> marcos__, dunno about those
# [11:26] <mjs> any others worth mentioning?
# [11:27] <anne> marcos__, only XFN and rel=license have some uptake
# [11:27] <mjs> hcard and hcalendar have some
# [11:27] <mjs> but anyway
# [11:28] <mjs> semantics for data that it's interesting for machines to hide does solve real problems
# [11:28] <anne> reuse rather than reinvent
# [11:28] <mjs> I like that one
# [11:28] <marcos__> that's a good one!
# [11:28] <anne> if there's already an implementation with a sufficient userbase that exposes a widely used feature specify that feature as opposed to something new
# [11:30] <mjs> is semantics a value in itself, as opposed to a means to the end of the other principles?
# [11:30] <mjs> should I bother to mention device- and platform-independence?
# [11:30] <krijnh> Reuse rather than reinvent -> <object> vs <video> ?
# [11:30] <marcos__> I think it is important to have a device and platform independence in there
# [11:30] <anne> krijnh, <video> is different from <object>
# [11:31] <mjs> krijnh: sometimes the principles have to be balanced
# [11:31] <mjs> I would cite Avoid Needless Complexity and Solve Real Problems
# [11:31] <anne> and my description should cater for <t:video> opposed to <video>
# [11:31] <mjs> <object> is too complex to solve the necessary problems
# [11:31] <mjs> <t:video> is not "widely used"
# [11:31] <mjs> I want to say "avoid invisible metadata"
# [11:32] <mjs> maybe there's a better way to say it
# [11:32] <mjs> "make metadata visible"?
# [11:32] <marcos__> Explain the problem
# [11:32] <mjs> metadata that's not attached to data end users can see is often mistaken or deceptive
# [11:33] <mjs> consider how likely a <link rel="next" href="whatever"> is to be broken or useless compared to <a rel="next" href="whatever">next</a>
# [11:33] <marcos__> Ok, based on that it might be good to add in "motivation" for each design goal
# [11:33] <mjs> I'll leave that one out for now since I can't state it clearly
# [11:34] <mjs> it might be too specific
# [11:34] <marcos__> it makes sense though
# [11:35] <marcos__> Internationalization: New versions of HTML must enable publication in all world languages instead of equalizing writing systems by prohibiting features that don't apply to all.
# [11:36] <marcos__> Security: New versions of HTML should avoid features that would violate browser security models that have been put in place as a necessity against previous attack vectors.
# [11:36] <marcos__> hsivonen, can you cite instances where this (security) has happned in the past?
# [11:37] <anne> Visible Metadata: Experience with <meta name=keywords value=x>, <link>, etc. shows that invisble metadata is unlikely to succeed. (...)
# [11:38] <marcos__> There is lots of evidence of that... maybe we should have for each DG an "evidence" subsection
# [11:38] <mjs> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [11:38] <mjs> hmm
# [11:38] <marcos__> Evidence can include citations to published articles and other hard proof
# [11:38] <mjs> WikiLinks need to be more than one word
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# [11:40] <marcos__> ROBOd, we are drafting design goals for HTML: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [11:40] <mjs> I need a multi-word way to describe "Internationalization"
# [11:40] <marcos__> InternationalizationAndLocalization
# [11:40] <mjs> Support World Languages?
# [11:41] <marcos__> yeah, that's nice an clear
# [11:41] <anne> Supporti18n
# [11:41] <anne> SupportI18n maybe
# [11:41] <mjs> Internationalization is a terrible word
# [11:41] <marcos__> I think localization should be in there as well
# [11:41] <anne> I18nByDesign
# [11:41] <mjs> it's not even quite right here
# [11:41] <anne> nm, that's wrong
# [11:42] <krijnh> 'Avoid Needless Complexity'
# [11:42] <mjs> we want to let people use all languages, but not necessarily features to localize a single page
# [11:42] <mjs> for multiple locales
# [11:42] <anne> that's out of scope even
# [11:42] <mjs> yes
# [11:42] <marcos__> But things like Web Forms need to localize, right?
# [11:43] <anne> marcos__, that's a UI issue
# [11:43] <marcos__> agreed.
# [11:43] <marcos__> Just making 100% sure it is out of scope
# [11:43] <ROBOd> hello guys
# [11:43] <ROBOd> thanks marcos__
# [11:43] <anne> and also, mjs was talking about localizing a single page for multiple locales
# [11:44] <hsivonen> marcos__: I was mainly thinking about cross-domain issues
# [11:44] <anne> that's out of scope
# [11:44] <mjs> things like number format in forms should probably be up to the OS/browser locale setting, rather than something in the page
# [11:44] <hsivonen> marcos__: and the policies for JavaScript, XHR, Flash and Mozilla SOAP
# [11:44] <hsivonen> marcos__: and the ugliness of it all
# [11:44] <marcos__> :)
# [11:45] <hsivonen> I think localization should happen on the server side
# [11:45] <hsivonen> that is, the server should send the app UI in one language at a time to the browser
# [11:45] <mjs> ok, any more to add?
# [11:45] <mjs> should I add the metadata one?
# [11:45] <mjs> should I say anything about semantics?
# [11:45] <marcos__> I think you should add it, even if we don'
# [11:46] <marcos__> .... don't have text for it
# [11:46] <krijnh> With some exceptions like meta charset
# [11:46] <mjs> meta charset has visible effects
# [11:47] <mjs> if you set it wrong, the document breaks
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# [11:48] <marcos__> the list is looking pretty good :D
# [11:49] <mjs> I added VisibleMetadata
# [11:49] <mjs> should I include SemanticMarkup?
# [11:49] <marcos__> I think so.
# [11:49] <mjs> there's clearly some sort of principle along those lines going on
# [11:49] <mjs> I'd also like to express the version of the "Reuse Rather Than Reinvent" principle for authors
# [11:49] <anne> SemanticMarkup should mention that names of the elements have to be practical rather than correct
# [11:50] <anne> (and that the name doesn't affect the semantics, duh)
# [11:50] <anne> (such as <meter> versus <guage>
# [11:50] <anne> or was it <gauge>
# [11:50] * anne forgot
# [11:50] <anne> prolly the latter
# [11:50] <mjs> Web Apps 1.0 legalizes many common practices of authors that past specs may have frowned upon
# [11:50] <mjs> like giving semantics to <i> and <b> rather than deprecating them as semantic markup
# [11:50] <marcos__> I know there is an actual expression for this... but I can't remember it
# [11:51] <mjs> it's almost like the "pave the cowpaths" principle for microformats
# [11:51] <marcos__> It's the principle that python uses
# [11:52] <anne> semanticmarkup should also be clear that <input> and such is ok
# [11:52] <anne> and that event handlers might be ok as well in some situations
# [11:53] <marcos__> Anne, what do you mean by <input> is ok?
# [11:53] <anne> <span onmouseover> is likely wrong and <span onclick> is ok
# [11:53] <anne> marcos__, that you can have behavioral "semantic markup"
# [11:53] <marcos__> ok, i c
# [11:53] * anne isn't sure yet how to capture that in a single sentence
# [11:55] <mjs> Markup should express semantics, not presentation. To some extent, semantics may include behavior. However, sometimes names of elements and attributes in the markup may have to be chosen for pragmatic reasons (brevity, history) rather than maximum precision.
# [11:55] <mjs> ^^^^^^^^^^
# [11:55] <hsivonen> mjs: I'd prefer media indepence over semantic markup
# [11:55] <hsivonen> mjs: semantic markup is a means not an end
# [11:55] <mjs> hsivonen: that sounds more concrete to me, so I like it better
# [11:55] <anne> but the above captures something that should be said as well
# [11:55] <marcos__> agreed
# [11:55] <mjs> I need to go to bed soon
# [11:56] <mjs> I'll save SemanticMarkup as I have it above, you guys feel free to edit
# [11:56] <anne> cool
# [11:56] <mjs> actually I guess I'll add media-independence
# [11:56] <anne> isn't that "Universal Access"
# [11:56] <anne> ?
# [11:57] <marcos__> Mjs, thanks for editing that together.
# [11:57] <mjs> well, I meant that one in the accessibility sense, but you could also interpret it as "it should work on a mac as well as a PC" or "it should work for handheld devices as well as desktops" or "it should work when printing as well as on a screen"
# [11:58] <mjs> I'll add Media Independence separately but feel free to combine
# [11:58] <anne> k
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# [11:59] <anne> maybe we should publish a W3C Note on this doc
# [11:59] <anne> to give it broader attention mostly
# [11:59] <mjs> I'll send a link to the list tomorrow
# [12:00] <mjs> these also aren't in even approximate priority order so far
# [12:01] <hsivonen> what I am trying to get at is this: let's assume italics is presentational. let's assume that most authors don't grok aural rendering in a way that suits blind users. in the interest of media-independence and satisficing instead of perfection, rendering italics in a different tone of voice may have a more useful net effect than expecting authors to pin down the semantics of italicization in each instance
# [12:01] <hsivonen> that's media-independence but not semantic markup
# [12:02] <mjs> should we strike Semantic Markup from the list?
# [12:02] <mjs> feel free to improve or expand on my text for these, also
# [12:02] <hsivonen> mjs: I am a bit nervous that having it as a core principle is a way down the rathole of angels on heads of pins discussions about the finer points of semantics
# [12:02] <mjs> I think at least in Web Apps 1.0 some traditional HTML features are rendered noncomformant primarily because they are solely presentational
# [12:03] <mjs> ok, I'll delete it for now
# [12:03] <anne> maybe we should add some clauses to semantic markup
# [12:03] * mjs wants to sleep
# [12:03] <mjs> add it back please if you guys come up with a good way to express it
# [12:03] <anne> or maybe we should just call it MarkupPrinciples
# [12:03] <mjs> we also seem to be missing the "pave the cowpaths" principle
# [12:04] <mjs> of preferring to legalize what authors do anyway when that makes sense
# [12:04] <mjs> besides <i>/<b>, another instance of that is allowing <br/> and <img/> in HTML syntax
# [12:04] <anne> "Pave the cowpaths. Only create a new format to serve an existing application."
# [12:05] <marcos__> like mjs said, there needs to be some clause about current practice (ie. <img/>)
# [12:06] <mjs> PaveTheCowpaths: When a practice is already widespread among authors, consider adopting it rather than forbidding it or inventing something new.
# [12:06] <marcos__> Nice!
# [12:06] <mjs> these are all nicely concrete for abstract principles
# [12:06] <mjs> I like that
# [12:07] <mjs> I still think there is a leaning against purely presentational markup that we should somehow express, but I'm not sure how
# [12:07] <mjs> gonna go to bed now
# [12:07] <marcos__> mjs. cya! thanks again
# [12:07] <anne> g'night
# [12:10] * Joins: cwahlers (Miranda@201.27.182.230)
# [12:18] <anne> PaveTheCowpaths does leave the door open for <table> as presentational element
# [12:18] <anne> so it seems we indeed want that other principle too
# [12:19] <marcos__> yep
# [12:25] * anne changes topic to 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ (logged) - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples'
# [12:38] <anne> hsivonen, how about: "MarkupPrinciples: In general markup should express semantics, not presentation. To some extent, semantics may include behavior. Names of elements and attributes in the markup maybe pragmatic (for brevity, history, simplicity) rather than completely accurate."
# [12:45] <anne> mainly, we don't want spacer gives legalized because people do it... (i think)
# [12:46] * Joins: dino (dino@59.167.58.90)
# [12:47] <marcos__> Dino is here to break the web :)
# [12:50] <anne> http://breaktheweb.org/
# [12:52] <krijnh> Spacer gifs anne ;)
# [13:15] <dino> it would be nice if we had a bot that announces changes to the wiki
# [13:16] <dino> esw.w3.org's clock is slow.
# [13:17] <dino> "Thank you for your changes. Your attention to detail is appreciated." I wonder if it would say the same thing if I replaced all the text with random ascii art
# [13:18] <dino> You can subscribe to a particular page, but maybe not to all pages.
# [13:18] <dino> aha! recent changes.
# [13:40] <marcos__> dino, you are entring a world of hurt
# [13:41] <hsivonen> a wiki and a forum reduce to email notifications. :-)
# [13:41] <anne> I added: "LanguageConstraints: In general markup should express semantics, not presentation. To some extent, semantics may include behavior. Names of elements and attributes in the markup maybe pragmatic (for brevity, history, simplicity) rather than completely accurate.""
# [13:43] <hsivonen> anne: I'd try to formulate a principle like SemanticMarkupAsAMeansToAnEnd
# [13:44] <anne> feel free to change mine :)
# [13:44] <hsivonen> will do
# [13:46] * Quits: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174) (Ping timeout)
# [13:49] <hsivonen> changed
# [13:51] <hsivonen> interestingly, so of the semantic advocacy I like to refute today are the kind of arguments I'd make myself in 2002
# [13:52] <hsivonen> then I worked on metadata stuff in the National Archives and in the military
# [13:52] <anne> yeah, the obvious way is not always the right one
# [13:52] <hsivonen> and had a big-time disillusionment with making J. Random User practice semantic authoring and about the usefulness of separate metadata
# [13:55] <hsivonen> (before anyone draws wrong conclusion about "military" above, I should mention that we have general conscription in Finland)
# [13:55] * hsivonen keeps making typos with "s"s today
# [13:56] <anne> heh
# [13:58] <hsivonen> and s/like to refute/tend to refute/ It's tedious. :-)
# [14:06] * anne wonders how the telcon will go
# [14:06] <anne> I can see F2F meetings working if we split into small groups and do barcamp like stuff... but telcons.
# [14:07] <anne> one hour of pure chaos can be fun though, for once
# [14:30] <anne> Does anyone else think the XML input control thread is silly?
# [14:32] <krijnh> +1
# [14:32] <anne> :p
# [14:33] <krijnh> <input type="xml"> OTOH..
# [14:33] <krijnh> ;]
# [14:33] <krijnh> Or <textarea type="xml">
# [14:33] <krijnh> But then I don't see how my kinds and grandparents could benefit
# [14:34] <krijnh> Especially since I have none of them anyway -_-
# [14:35] <anne> there's <textarea type=application/xml></textarea>
# [14:35] <anne> but it's unclear what it'll do
# [14:36] <krijnh> There is?
# [14:36] <krijnh> Where is?
# [14:36] <anne> wf2 allows type= on <textarea>
# [14:36] <krijnh> Ah
# [14:39] <krijnh> anne: You mean accept ?
# [14:39] <anne> oh
# [14:39] <anne> yeah, i suppose
# [14:39] <krijnh> Ha
# [14:40] <krijnh> Shame on you
# [14:40] <krijnh> :)
# [14:41] <anne> it's not supported, who cares
# [14:45] <krijnh> So one should join that XML input thread and say http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#accept
# [14:50] <anne> heh
# [14:51] <Lachy> Hi all
# [14:51] <krijnh> Hi you
# [14:52] <Lachy> gosh there's a lot of chat history here, was there any particularly intersting topics I should look for and read?
# [14:52] <anne> see the last URI in the topic
# [14:52] <anne> you should read that
# [14:52] <anne> if you want to know how we got there, read the archives
# [14:52] <anne> other than that... don't think so
# [14:53] <Lachy> from skimming the headings, it all looks pretty sensible.
# [14:54] * anne replies
# [14:55] <Lachy> replies to what?
# [14:55] <anne> to the XML thread!
# [14:55] <Lachy> oh
# [14:55] <Lachy> I haven't read that at all, I only skimmed the initial post
# [14:55] <anne> that guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about
# [14:56] <anne> krijnh, I used your pointer, it better be correct...
# [14:56] * anne checks
# [14:56] * krijnh neither, that's why I don't post to the list
# [14:56] <krijnh> anne: it is
# [14:56] * Lachy wonders if I should reply to Mike to let him know that assigning issue numbers to topics on a wiki doesn't really make sense, particularly when they're non-issues
# [14:56] <Lachy> perhaps an off-list reply
# [14:57] <anne> Mike Schinkel?
# [14:57] <Lachy> yes
# [14:57] <anne> he's funny
# [14:57] <Lachy> yep
# [14:58] <Lachy> I think he's up to something like a dozen e-mails complaining about the volume of mail coming from this list
# [14:58] <anne> yeah, same for this Gavin
# [14:59] <Lachy> should we write a page on the wiki explaining the guidelines for posting to the list?
# [14:59] <krijnh> Nah
# [14:59] <Lachy> for most lists, I wouldn't bother, but this list seems to have quite a few newbies
# [14:59] <anne> give them a forum
# [14:59] <anne> and let it be
# [15:00] <krijnh> We newbies have one already
# [15:00] <Lachy> we did already, and they still kept asking for one
# [15:00] <Dashiva> Just let them play in their sandbox while the grownups do the work?
# [15:00] <anne> "grownups"
# [15:00] * anne is 20 atm
# [15:00] <krijnh> Hmm, I don't think this is the way to label people, but still ;)
# [15:00] <Lachy> public-sandbox@w3.org?
# [15:00] <Dashiva> email is for old farts, don't you remember?
# [15:01] <Lachy> wow, you're so young
# [15:01] <Lachy> (I'm only 24)
# [15:01] <krijnh> anne was reading specs while others were still learning aap, noot, mies
# [15:07] <Lachy> I don't understand why Dan keeps asking for test cases. What's the ultimate goal of having test cases? What should we be testing?
# [15:08] <Lachy> I don't mean in general
# [15:08] <anne> me neither
# [15:08] <Lachy> I mean what are his specific goals for having them
# [15:09] <anne> perhaps he just wants some idea of where to start with fixing stuff?
# [15:09] <anne> what things to consider?
# [15:09] <krijnh> Talking about them during the telcon
# [15:09] <anne> i think we should make testcases for specified features
# [15:10] <Lachy> I think it would be far more benefitial if people would review the HTML5 spec and write test cases for specific sections
# [15:10] * gavin_ assumes "this Gavin" means Gavin Pearce
# [15:10] <anne> making testcases against implementations can help, but not in such an unstructured way for such a large featureset
# [15:10] <anne> gavin_, yeah, sorry
# [15:10] * anne forgot the last name of the other gavin
# [15:10] <gavin_> I've never been in any other groups with Gavins before!
# [15:10] <Lachy> sharp
# [15:10] <krijnh> Lachy: I agree, but there's still no mention of reviewing the spec
# [15:11] <Lachy> (that's Gavin Sharp, btw, in case anyone was wondering why I said that)
# [15:11] <anne> Lachy, I forgot Pearce ;)
# [15:11] <anne> this one is easy to look up using /whois
# [15:12] <Lachy> yeah, that's what I did
# [15:12] <Lachy> I was wondering why you didn't :-)
# [15:13] * Lachy goes to reply to Dan
# [15:14] <anne> good
# [15:14] <marcos__> Mike is one 1 email from getting his very own email rule...
# [15:14] <anne> we should prolly be more proactive when we all have the same question...
# [15:15] <anne> as in: "he pulled a Mike Schinkel"?
# [15:15] <marcos__> hehe
# [15:16] <Lachy> will someone reply off-list to Mike asking him to reduce the volume of mail and write less pointless messages, or should I do it?
# [15:16] <anne> i think I tried once before when he joined the WHATWG
# [15:16] <anne> woha, I'm +1'd
# [15:16] <Lachy> what?
# [15:17] <Lachy> oh, I see
# [15:17] <anne> asking him to do things normally
# [15:17] <anne> but it might've been someone else
# [15:17] <Lachy> no, I mean what did you mean by +1'd, but then I got the reply to your XML input control mail
# [15:18] <marcos__> omg, he is giving issues ids on the wiki!!???? "RichTextInput03"
# [15:18] <anne> hax0rs!!@1@!!11
# [15:18] <marcos__> hehe, zomg lol rofl lolz
# [15:19] <krijnh> I think +1 is funny
# [15:19] <marcos__> +0 :)
# [15:19] <Lachy> +1 is just annoying sometimes
# [15:19] <krijnh> Is anybody keeping track of them? :)
# [15:19] <anne> the funny thing is that his issue numbers don't match with the issue list DanC made
# [15:19] <anne> krijnh, of course not
# [15:19] <krijnh> anne: sarcasm
# [15:19] <anne> krijnh, +1 is a logical fallacy
# [15:20] <anne> fair enough
# [15:20] <Lachy> anne, what make it a fallacy?
# [15:20] <anne> Lachy, that multiple people agree something is true doesn't make it so
# [15:20] <anne> but I'm not entirely sure that makes it a logical fallacy
# [15:20] <anne> oh well
# [15:20] <Lachy> not quite a fallacy, I don't think, but I see what you mean
# [15:22] <Lachy> it's ok when there's 2 or more solutions to a problem and you want to give a quick response indicating your preference, but in the case of the don't break the web thread, it's pointless
# [15:22] <anne> btw, reviews of http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tpul3zks64w2qv@id-c0020 appreciated
# [15:22] <anne> it would be good to figure out what the best policy is
# [15:22] * marcos__ goes back to editing xbl primer....
# [15:30] <Lachy> reply to Dan sent.
# [15:32] <krijnh> Clear pass/fail conditions, uf
# [15:33] * krijnh remembers anne pointing that out
# [15:33] <Lachy> krijnh, what's uf? Is that a reference to microformants?
# [15:34] <krijnh> <sound>uf</sound>
# [15:34] <Lachy> ha?
# [15:34] <krijnh> Never mind
# [15:34] <Lachy> ok
# [15:38] <Lachy> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/RichTextInput03 -- isn't Mike aware of <canvas>?
# [15:38] <Lachy> oh, I mean contentEditibable
# [15:38] <anne> this is the <input type=xml> stuff i think
# [15:39] <anne> <xmleditor schema=something.xsd/> sillyness
# [15:39] <Lachy> yeah, but he called it RichTextInput, which is canvas. I don't know what that XML thread is really about
# [15:41] <Lachy> right, 27 e-mails from Mike. Time to e-mail him back :-| (off list)
# [15:41] <anne> now it seems he actually does want contenteditable=
# [15:41] <anne> oh well
# [15:55] * marcos__ wonders if XBL2 attachment mechanisms will be compatible 'text/html' serialization of HTML 5?
# [15:57] <marcos__> hmm.. guess not as processing instructions should not be allowed, right?
# [15:57] <anne> in due course we'll have <link rel=binding>
# [15:57] <anne> which might be a bit of pain to implement come to think of it
# [15:57] <marcos__> will that be defined in HTML5 or in XBL>
# [15:57] <marcos__> ?
# [15:57] <anne> anyway, that's the current plan iirc and if we really need PIs we can introduce them
# [15:57] <anne> in HTML5 of course
# [15:57] <marcos__> ok, just making sure.
# [15:59] <marcos__> Man, I can't wait to h4x0r me some xbl
# [16:04] <Lachy> anne, why would <link rel=binding> be a pain to implement?
# [16:04] <Lachy> what makes it different from a PI, other than syntax?
# [16:06] * Joins: i10neorg (one@208.65.91.24)
# [16:08] * Quits: i10neorg (one@208.65.91.24) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [16:09] <Lachy> almost finished writing my response to Mike. I've covered the volume of e-mail issue and the wiki issue numbering system.
# [16:09] <Lachy> anything else I should mention?
# [16:10] <Lachy> and would anyone like a BCC so you can see what I've written?
# [16:16] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Mar/0050.html
# [16:17] * marcos__ awaits lachy's email :D
# [16:18] * Lachy adds marcos__ to the BCC list
# [16:18] <marcos__> yay! :)
# [16:19] <Lachy> ah, I don't have your e-mail address in my address book
# [16:19] <marcos__> m.caceres@qut.edu.au
# [16:20] <Lachy> have you never posted to either whatwg or public-html before?
# [16:20] <Lachy> or any other list I'm on
# [16:21] <marcos__> I've poster lots to html one
# [16:21] <marcos__> even a few "+1!" :P
# [16:22] <Lachy> oh, maybe it's cause I've never replied to one of your posts. Most other people are already in my address book
# [16:22] * Lachy adds you manually
# [16:22] <anne> Lachy, you encounter it later
# [16:23] <Lachy> encounter what later?
# [16:23] <anne> Lachy, but the loading of <?xbl?> is async so I guess it might not be much of a pain
# [16:23] <Lachy> oh, you're talking about rel=binding
# [16:24] * anne replies in sync
# [16:29] * anne is not convinced that test case sketches are useful
# [16:30] * Joins: h3h (bfults@70.95.237.98)
# [16:35] <Lachy> marcos__, the mail is sent
# [16:35] <marcos__> lachy, checkin :D
# [16:36] <Lachy> let me know what you think when you're done reading
# [16:38] <marcos__> Lachy, nice and diplomatic.... but I fear he is going to respond badly
# [16:39] <Lachy> hence the long preamble :-)
# [16:39] <anne> cc www-archive next time
# [16:39] <marcos__> hehe
# [16:39] <Lachy> wasn't sure if I should make it public, I didn't want to embarass him
# [16:40] <Lachy> although, discussing it here doesn't really help :-/
# [16:40] <anne> :p
# [16:40] <marcos__> hehe, yeah... specially since it's all logged :D
# [16:40] <krijnh> \o/
# [16:40] <Lachy> really? what nick?
# [16:40] <marcos__> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
# [16:41] <krijnh> Now with super duper gzip encoding
# [16:41] <marcos__> respect!
# [16:41] <krijnh> Just one line of php actually
# [16:41] <marcos__> respect++ to php.
# [16:41] <krijnh> Hmm, I thought people would shiver on hearing php ;]
# [16:42] <marcos__> ha, I code mostly in ColdFusion!
# [16:43] <marcos__> that will scare the children!
# [16:43] <krijnh> :|
# [16:43] <Lachy> aargh! noooo!
# [16:43] <marcos__> hahahahah
# [16:43] * marcos__ has revealed too much... oh no!! it's logged for ever!!!
# [16:43] <Dashiva> Pretend it was a joke
# [16:43] <krijnh> Why pretend? ColdFusion is
# [16:44] <krijnh> :>
# [16:44] <marcos__> ...is...
# [16:44] <krijnh> a joke
# [16:44] <marcos__> heheh
# [16:44] <marcos__> Cf is just Java.
# [16:44] <marcos__> kinda...
# [16:44] <marcos__> sorta...
# [16:45] <marcos__> depends how you use it...
# [16:45] <marcos__> it's not my fault... it's what they use here...
# [16:45] <krijnh> They?
# [16:45] <marcos__> my work
# [16:45] <krijnh> Ah
# [16:45] <marcos__> oh :(
# [16:45] <krijnh> Self_employedness++
# [16:46] <marcos__> unemployness++
# [16:47] <krijnh> Self_employedness + IRC = unemployness though ;]
# [16:47] <marcos__> yeah true.. krijnh, what are you using for loggin this channel?
# [16:47] <krijnh> I won't tell ;P
# [16:48] <marcos__> oh, go on
# [16:48] <krijnh> It's even worse than coldfusion
# [16:48] <Dashiva> He secretly inserts lots of terrorist word triggers in the channel, and then hacks into the FBI logs
# [16:48] <krijnh> I copy and paste every line by hand
# [16:48] <marcos__> hehe
# [16:56] <mjs> good morning folks
# [17:00] <Lachy> morning mjs
# [17:01] <mjs> Hmm, I think the LanguageConstraints design principle needs a better name
# [17:01] <mjs> SemanticMarkupAsAMeansToAnEnd was accurate but a bit long
# [17:01] <marcos__> here we go again...
# [17:01] <mjs> hey Lachy
# [17:01] * Quits: h3h (bfults@70.95.237.98) (Quit: h3h)
# [17:04] <mjs> how about MostlySemanticMarkup?
# [17:04] <mjs> or PracticalSemanticMarkup?
# [17:04] <mjs> or PragmaticSemanticMarkup, though that could get linguists riled up
# [17:05] <Dashiva> SemanticsForFunAndProfit
# [17:05] <mjs> hah
# [17:06] <mjs> SemanticsForAReason might actually be good
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# [17:18] <gavin_> DST sure made a mess of the PeopleLocation page!
# [17:19] <gavin_> about half of the people in my time zone chose UTC-4 (the current correct offset) and the other half chose UTC-5 (the summer offset)
# [17:20] <Dashiva> I bet most of them don't know the difference between GMT and UTC
# [17:20] <Lachy> I just used the non-DST time when I added mine, cause DST finished last weekend for us
# [17:21] <Lachy> Dashiva, what's the practical difference between them?
# [17:22] <gavin_> and of course, now I've managed to confused myself
# [17:22] <gavin_> UTC-5 is the Winter offset, not summer
# [17:22] * gavin_ is bad with seasons
# [17:23] <Lachy> for most people, I think they're equivalent, it's just their definitions that differ.
# [17:26] <Dashiva> Lachy: The differences don't matter much, no. It's more that people who just do UTC=GMT tend to gloss over other things too. Like whether UTC includes DST or not
# [17:27] <Lachy> neither UTC or GMT have DST
# [17:28] <Dashiva> Well, that fact clearly escaped half of gavin's neighbors somehow :)
# [17:29] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
# [17:29] <DanC> ooh... http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [17:29] <Dashiva> Issa Dan
# [17:29] <gavin_> well, I'd rather not have to change that page everytime we go in or out of DST
# [17:29] <marcos__> DanC, what do think ?
# [17:29] <gavin_> so I chose the non-DST offset
# [17:29] * Joins: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234)
# [17:30] <gavin_> (others had done the same when I added mine)
# [17:30] <gavin_> but now it's just horribly inconsistent
# [17:30] <gavin_> in fact, it seems the Americans chose -4 and the Canadians chose -5
# [17:30] <gavin_> a bit odd :)
# [17:30] <DanC> I think I'm happy that there's progress on HTML design principles in the ESW wiki... hmm...
# [17:31] <DanC> there remains the question of how to integrate it with email discussion...
# [17:31] <marcos__> DanC, We thought it would be good to "brainstorm" the ideas :)
# [17:31] <Dashiva> gavin_: As Lachy said above, UTC never includes DST offset. Strictly speaking you change time zone when you enter DST
# [17:31] <marcos__> DanC, we can start putting supporting documentation into each of the sub sections
# [17:31] <gavin_> Dashiva: I'm well aware.
# [17:32] <DanC> marcos_, don't rush...
# [17:32] <Dashiva> How about listing both? :)
# [17:32] <DanC> don't make stub pages like http://esw.w3.org/topic/DegradeGracefully . don't hit "save" until there's some meat on the bones
# [17:32] <marcos__> No rushing... just thinking... drafting... reflecting... rewritting...
# [17:33] <marcos__> DanC? why?
# [17:33] <DanC> see http://esw.w3.org/topic/OnlyMakeInterestingPages
# [17:34] <marcos__> We should at least try to keep a similar structure for each page
# [17:34] <DanC> beware the urge to generalize prematurely
# [17:35] <DanC> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. "
# [17:35] <marcos__> what did you call me? ;)
# [17:35] <Lachy> DanC, I still don't agree with you about the test cases
# [17:36] <DanC> experimental evidence supports your position, Lachy
# [17:36] <Lachy> you said "e.g. if you want some feature that's not in HTML 4, attach a document that uses the new feature", but that's exactly what we don't want for new proposals
# [17:36] <DanC> I suppose I have some experimental evidence on my side too, but not in public-html@w3.org
# [17:37] <DanC> you're quoting me out of context
# [17:37] <Lachy> no, I'm not
# [17:37] <gavin_> Dashiva: I suppose that's the best choice, yeah. I suppose me caring about it this much means I need to change everyone else's, too :)
# [17:38] <Lachy> even reading in context, it means the same thing to me
# [17:38] <DanC> yes, you left out essential context: *and motivate it in the body of the document.*
# [17:38] <Lachy> I don't know what that means
# [17:38] <DanC> then don't be so sure you disagree
# [17:38] <DanC> (more context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0045.html )
# [17:39] <Lachy> I disagree with having people provide test demonstrating solutions before any actual problem or use case has really been identified
# [17:39] <DanC> so do I; I haven't seen anyone argue for that.
# [17:40] <Lachy> well, how else do I interpret that quote?
# [17:40] <mjs> DanC: I was going to send a link to the current draft in email
# [17:40] <DanC> interpret it as: think hard before you post. We want to see motivation for any new features, plus some evidence that you've thought about it enough to give a concrete example that we can test with various software tools.
# [17:41] <sierk> Hi everyone here! Does anybody have made somewhat like a ToDo list (official or for himself), which items/problems/issues should be solved in a new version of (X)HTML?
# [17:41] <DanC> but I don't want to be that blunt
# [17:41] <Lachy> ok. I get the "motivation for any new features", since that seems to mean use cases/problems. But concrete exampes for testing with tools seems to be jumping into solutions
# [17:42] <DanC> I'm not all that interested in motivation for new features without evidence of at least a little implementation experience, frankly.
# [17:43] <Lachy> so you want to focus on stuff that browsers have already implemented, like proprietary extensions?
# [17:44] <DanC> sigh. you could perhaps be a bit more generous with your questions; give me the benefit of the doubt.
# [17:44] <Lachy> please explain
# [17:45] <DanC> I have only had "proprietary formats are not welcome" on my homepage for about 10 years.
# [17:45] <Lachy> then I really don't understand
# [17:45] <Lachy> you want new features with implementation experience, but proprietary extensions are out
# [17:45] <DanC> no
# [17:45] <DanC> I don't want any new features.
# [17:45] <Lachy> what?
# [17:45] <DanC> I want people to think before they post.
# [17:46] <Lachy> should I paste that quote again?
# [17:46] <Lachy> you're asking people for test cases demonstrating new features
# [17:46] <Lachy> now you're saying you don't want them!?
# [17:46] * Lachy *confused*
# [17:47] <DanC> yes, I was trying to welcome people to the group, but gently encourage them to think carefully about the cost of changes. I think you've made your point that my message was unclear.
# [17:49] <Lachy> ok, so let's work out exactly what we want from people
# [17:49] <Lachy> I'm going to ignore your previous e-mail, since it's clearly just a source of confusion
# [17:51] <sierk> Dan, I am near with you, concerning to make big changes. But to make slightly changes, which make the state a little bit more comfortable and clearer for the user, that should be achieved, should'nt it?
# [17:51] <DanC> when I sent that brainstorming ice-breaker message, I was also considering a more straightforward email introductions ritual, a la http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0002.html . I wonder if the results of that would have been better. I wonder if it's still worth doing.
# [17:52] <DanC> sierk, it's mostly my job to say "no" on behalf of the silent majority. but yes, it's likely that a few very well-justified features should get in.
# [17:52] <Lachy> that was sent just before I joined, so I'd never received it or read it
# [17:53] <DanC> 2004JanMar/0002 is from a different group altogether
# [17:53] <DanC> and it was sent years ago
# [17:53] <Lachy> oh, sorry, I assumed it was public-html
# [17:53] <Lachy> ah, I also assumed 2007
# [17:53] <krijnh> It also had a lot less members
# [17:54] <DanC> indeed
# [17:54] <DanC> I thought requiring a concrete example would dampen things a bit. "brainstorming" is hardly the best choice of words for that.
# [17:54] <krijnh> I don't think it's interesting to know background info of about 200 people
# [17:54] <Lachy> me neither
# [17:55] <krijnh> DanC: I'd expected public-html to begin with a review of whatwg drafts
# [17:55] <DanC> the odds are good that you'd be pleasantly surprised to learn about 5 or 6 of the 200. but I agree, it's not clearly cost-effective.
# [17:55] <sierk> Dan, concerning the URL above about the self-introduction -- should we also do it for #html-wg? I didn't self-introduce me either, it would have been more polite, I guess ...
# [17:55] <krijnh> At least for those not already 'working' with the whatwg for some months/years
# [17:55] <Lachy> I think a persons reputation speaks for itself, knowing something about their personal life isn't really interesting unless they have proven reputable
# [17:56] <krijnh> Note to self; start a blog
# [17:56] <krijnh> :)
# [17:56] <DanC> I can't encourage review of the whatWG drafts per se until I have a clear statement about them from apple, opera, and mozilla. And I don't think I should ask the question in so many words until I can oblige Microsoft to answer as well.
# [17:57] <krijnh> DanC: Then we should all just wait and consider brainstorming pretty useless
# [17:57] <DanC> I'm happy for people to just wait
# [17:57] <Lachy> as far as I'm concerned, if this HTMLWG is going to be working on a separate spec, it's a waste of time. Though I understand the internal politics of the situation
# [17:58] <krijnh> +1 Lachy (sorry DanC :)
# [17:58] <Lachy> and we also need to wait for Chris to join
# [17:58] <Lachy> any word yet on when he will?
# [17:58] <DanC> sorry for what? I don't take any offense.
# [17:59] <Lachy> good
# [17:59] <krijnh> DanC: You asked to not just say +1, but also back it up, like the Apache voting stuff
# [17:59] <DanC> ah. irc messages are cheaper than mail messages.
# [17:59] <mjs> I think many of the group members would like to adopt the WHATWG spec, but we're thinking a decision would be more solid if it was done in the presence (a) the other co-chair and (b) a representative from Microsoft
# [17:59] <mjs> and these happen to be the same person
# [18:00] <DanC> actually, I hope there's a separate representative from Microsoft. perhaps not initially, but eventually.
# [18:00] <krijnh> mjs: true, but I think there's also a group of people on public-html which hasn't been into the whatwg fully (me including)
# [18:00] <mjs> well, they happen to be blocked by the same issue right now in any case
# [18:00] <DanC> Chris's "it might take a week, it might take more" message was a week ago. So it would be good to get an update, yes. I mailed him offlist.
# [18:00] <Lachy> krijnh, I just assumed you'd been on the whatwg list for while
# [18:00] <mjs> krijnh: I haven't been a very active whatwg participant until recently
# [18:01] <krijnh> Lachy: Nope, just subscribed, I followed everything through blogs
# [18:01] <krijnh> Lachy: Which makes me a newbie, without reputation, but I don't mind :)
# [18:01] <Lachy> krijnh, you seem to very wise about the issues for someone who hasn't been involved with the whatwg
# [18:01] <DanC> I was interested to have an informative presentation of HTML5 by phone/irc/web, but the advice I got was pretty negative, so I haven't followed up on it.
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# [18:02] <Lachy> well, your reputation speaks for itself already ;-)
# [18:02] <krijnh> Tee hee
# [18:02] <DanC> The W3C teleconference bridge hardware suffered a power supply failure this morning. I might take that as cosmic advice to cancel the telcon this Thu.
# [18:03] <krijnh> Lachy: I've read big parts, I just don't contribute; I'm a lurker
# [18:03] <mjs> I think a summary of HTML5 would best be done in writing (perhaps by email) or in person
# [18:03] <DanC> mjs, about http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples , that looks like an interesting start...
# [18:04] * Dave thinks the power supply failed after a burst of cosmic rays hit MIT
# [18:04] <DanC> ... the ideal situation with a wiki is when a community really adopts it in the sense that those who disagree with what's there are obliged to change it...
# [18:05] <DanC> ... I don't know if we should aim for that in the HTML WG, though...
# [18:05] <mjs> DanC: anne and marcos__ encouraged me to write stuff down
# [18:05] <mjs> DanC: I don't know how much disagreement there will be, but I hope people at least voice it if so
# [18:05] <DanC> ... it might be best to to have a sort of "design principles task force" that uses the wiki to develop stuff, and then reports to the WG by email.
# [18:05] <mjs> wikis are not the best forums for debate
# [18:05] <mjs> well, there already was a design principles task force last night
# [18:06] <Lachy> wikis are just good places for documetation
# [18:06] <mjs> of me, anne, marcos__ and hsivonen
# [18:06] <mjs> although we were somewhat self-appointed
# [18:06] <DanC> wikis work best when the topic is conventional wisdom, not controversial issues.
# [18:06] <DanC> well, you were somewhat recruited...
# [18:07] <mjs> I'm hoping these aren't very controversial, at least among a broad subset of the WG
# [18:07] <DanC> "I'd be happy for a few volunteers to step forward
# [18:07] <DanC> by outlines...
# [18:07] <DanC> or does somebody want to start a wiki topic?" -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0499.html
# [18:07] <Lachy> someone should update the wiki pages Mike created for abbr/acronym and doctypes to explain the situation and point to previous threads on the issues
# [18:07] <krijnh> Lachy: I'm trying to change that now btw :)
# [18:07] <Lachy> cool
# [18:08] <krijnh> (the lurker inside me that is)
# [18:09] <Lachy> oh, I found a brilliant post from Alan Flavell in www-html from '97 that explains the abbr/acronym issue perfectly
# [18:09] * Lachy looks it up
# [18:10] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1997Jul/0558.html
# [18:11] <DanC> by the way, the ESW wiki gets spammed pretty hard; the W3C systems guys are struggling to keep it afloat.
# [18:11] <DanC> there are a few kinds souls who actually visit daily to undo spam.
# [18:12] <DanC> I think it's closed to anonymous editing, currently. :-/
# [18:12] <sierk> Looking at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ -- what do you think about a new topic concerning a better handling/new element for email-adresses on web pages to make it harder for email harvesters/spammers? Just a hat, I want to throw into the ring of disussions worth to be disussed/solved ...
# [18:12] <Lachy> what new element for email addresses?
# [18:13] <DanC> sierk, I think the wiki is best used for conventional wisdom, not design of new features.
# [18:13] <Lachy> oh, wait, I misread your statement
# [18:13] <sierk> New element: I don't know. To be discussed.
# [18:13] <mjs> later folks
# [18:13] <mjs> I'll post the link when I get in the office
# [18:13] <Lachy> cya mjs
# [18:13] <DanC> hasta, mjs
# [18:13] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
# [18:13] <marcos__> DanC, Lachy did a nice presentation about HTML 5. Maybe you could point people to it if they want a quick into what the WHATWG has been doing. http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/02/future-of-html-slides
# [18:14] <marcos__> (sorry lachy, but you made it public :) )
# [18:14] <Lachy> yeah, I know
# [18:14] <Lachy> thanks for point it out
# [18:14] <marcos__> DanC, seriously. It's very good, + comes with a audio file for easy listening.
# [18:15] <Lachy> I think DanC has already listened to it
# [18:15] * DanC doesn't remember listening to it
# [18:15] <marcos__> I would assume everyone here has ;)
# [18:15] <Lachy> oh, maybe you haven't. I thought you had told me you did, maybe it was someone else
# [18:15] * Lachy doesn't know
# [18:16] <sierk> DanC, if the Wiki might not the right place to discuss new features, where could be a better place to do it?
# [18:16] <Lachy> sierk, about your idea to make e-mail address harder to harvest, I doubt it would work
# [18:18] <sierk> Lachy, why? What about the attempts to do it , XML Signature tries and FOAF tries?
# [18:18] <DanC> sierk, you're welcome to research the problem and the issue comprehensively and report your findings by email.
# [18:18] <Lachy> link?
# [18:19] <Lachy> my feeling is that any obfuscation techniqe can be reversed by spammers just as as well as any other UA, particularly if there's a spec defining how
# [18:20] <Lachy> if you can point me to something that explains how XML Sig or FOAF attempt to do it, that might help
# [18:21] <sierk> Lachy: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmldsig-core/ and http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/
# [18:21] <Lachy> any specific section? Could you give an example?
# [18:23] <Lachy> These are all the methods I know of to hide e-mail from spammers, all of them have work arounds http://www.mail-archive.com/listdad@webstandardsgroup.org/msg02208.html
# [18:25] <Lachy> one more method is to encode the address in ROT-13, but that would be a little confusing for most users
# [18:25] <sierk> Lachy, not at this moment, sorry. I have to rea-raed the specs for myself. It'S long ago, that I have read them. But I guess, the attempts of those both specs are worth to read and worth to discuss to eventually come to a similar solution. The use of a Hash algorithm (e.g. SHA1) plays a role in it ...
# [18:25] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html might be a good place to start for design principles (re earlier conversation)
# [18:25] <Hixie> that's what we used when starting whatwg, and i think it still applies today
# [18:26] <Lachy> hi Hixie
# [18:27] <Hixie> hey
# [18:27] * Hixie is in the csswg meeting so may be flaky today
# [18:28] <Lachy> about that image map stuff I mentioned earlier, it's still listed as TBW in the spec, so I thought it wasn't finished and you hadn't done it
# [18:28] <Hixie> ->#whatwg :-)
# [18:29] <Hixie> (since that's a whatwg issue)
# [18:29] <marcos__> That's exacly the kind of document we needed :)
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# [18:32] <sierk> DanC, if it is wanted/wished, where is a good place to introduce myself for those who don't know anything about me (I guess, some people of the QA team already know me...)? A short mail into the mailinglist?
# [18:33] <tylerr> Hello all.
# [18:33] <DanC> it's not clear that n^2 introductions are in order, sierk . But I'm interested in a pointer to a homepage/blog/etc. if you have one
# [18:34] <h3h> sierk: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
# [18:34] <sierk> Yes, I have. Mainly in german. http://sierkbornemann.de/
# [18:34] <DanC> that page says I'm UTC-6, which is off by 1. I'm interested to see if it corrects itsefl
# [18:35] <Dashiva> Where are you located, DanC?
# [18:36] <DanC> well, http://sierkbornemann.de/ is reasonbly attractive. it's very slow to scroll. like W3C tech reports. I guess there's some CSS feature that firefox doesn't do well with
# [18:37] <Dashiva> Putting winter in paranthesis is a bit backwards. DST is the exception, not the rule. Not everywhere uses it.
# [18:38] <h3h> heh. hi Dashiva
# [18:38] <sierk> DanC, I use the CSS property background: fixed.
# [18:38] <Dashiva> Hello, h3h
# [18:38] <h3h> am I crazy or should it be UTC=8 *winter*, UTC-7 *summer* ?
# [18:38] <Dashiva> h3h: That is also correct
# [18:38] <h3h> er UTC-8
# [18:38] <h3h> everyone has it backwards on the PeopleLocation page
# [18:39] <tylerr> h3h: I always have Pacific Standard set to -8.
# [18:39] <DanC> Dashiva, in my IRC info and in every mail message I send, there's a pointer to http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ where I publish a certain amount of contact info, including... "my office is remote, in the vicinity of the Kansas City International Airport (39.2975, -94.7139)."
# [18:39] <DanC> my irc whois info
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# [18:39] <Dashiva> DanC: I was thinking time zone. Kansas is central, I think?
# [18:39] <h3h> DST is terrible.
# [18:39] <DanC> oops... my freenode whois info has my homepage; evidently not here on irc.w3.org
# [18:40] * h3h correcting values on PeopleLocation page
# [18:40] * Dashiva will proofread afterwards
# [18:40] <gavin_> ah, good
# [18:40] <DanC> the fact that Kansas uses central times is about 2 clicks from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_International_Airport , yes.
# [18:40] <Lachy> someone should just add a note to the top of that people location page stating that if DST time zones are given, then they should be marked with "DST"
# [18:41] <Lachy> anyway, good night everyone
# [18:41] <DanC> I wrote some code to go from lat/long to timezone using wikipedia recently.
# [18:41] <DanC> I'm curious if it gives America/Los_Angeles for seattle...
# [18:41] <sierk> DanC, what Firefox version do you use? I have no problems with Firefox scrolling my pages. There has been an issue of firefox a long time, if you have used early versions of Firefox 3a, but this issue is fixed because of a successfully landing of the new layout engine.
# [18:41] <h3h> ok, updated: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
# [18:41] <DanC> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070208 Iceweasel/2.0.0.2 (Debian-2.0.0.2+dfsg-3)
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# [18:42] <Dashiva> h3h: How about grouping people by time zone? Right now we have seven people with the same -8/-7 duplicated
# [18:43] <h3h> go for it; I'm tired now ;)
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# [18:44] <tylerr> DanC: I'm guessing so, they usually name off the most recognizable city in the time zone for purposes of helping others get a general idea of where on the map that time zone is.
# [18:44] <tylerr> More people have heard of Los Angeles I'm guessing than my rainy city. ;-)
# [18:47] <sierk> DanC: granted, using background-image: fixed makes scrolling a webpage indeed a little bit slower in contrast to not using it (Firefox), but I don't find this very annoying. Other web browsers like Opera and Konqueror/Safari do this handle a little bit better, yes indeed. But we get OT here, I guess...
# [18:48] <DanC> hmm... my code maps airport code SEA to u'America/Vancouver'
# [18:48] <DanC> (u'CA', (49.266666666666666, -123.11666666666666), u'America/Vancouver')
# [18:49] <DanC> that's the closest timezone-population-center to...
# [18:49] <DanC> 'fn': {'text': u'Seattle-Tacoma International Airport'},
# [18:49] <DanC> 'geo': {'latitude': 47.448999999999998, 'longitude': -122.30930555555555},
# [18:49] <tylerr> Yep, I always have to pick Vancouver when looking for the closest city to mine.
# [18:49] <tylerr> Which is fine, I don't mind being a global citizen. ;-)
# [18:50] <DanC> speaking of OT, code is http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/data4/tzwhere.py , and the magic data is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_zones_by_country
# [18:50] <DanC> I don't think I've blogged about it yet
# [18:50] <h3h> exclude=["/Indiana"] # funny
# [18:53] <DanC> yeah; the exclude=["/Indiana"] is so that it reports my timezone as America/Chicago and not something horribly obscure
# [18:53] * DanC realizes he's explaining himself in IRC when he should have explained in a comment in the code
# [18:53] <DanC> or better yet: a test case.
# [18:55] <gavin_> or even better: both!
# [18:57] <Dashiva> I keep writing UTF instead of UTC
# [19:06] <Dashiva> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation is now grouped. I hope I got Australia right.
# [19:08] <DanC> nice...
# [19:09] <DanC> my code says it's 2007-03-27T12:13:00+10:00 near SYD aiport
# [19:10] <sierk> What to do, that I have my place on this list?
# [19:10] <DanC> do you see the "Edit" link?
# [19:11] <Dashiva> DanC: Maybe their DST is in winter, so it's supposed to be +11 winter and +10 in summer. Would make sense for southern hemisphere, I suppose
# [19:11] * Dashiva changes that
# [19:13] <sierk> I have no "edit" link. I have "protected page" and "Login", both in german.
# [19:13] <Dashiva> You have to login to edit
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# [19:15] <sierk> Dashiva: Ahhh. Had to initially create an account...
# [19:16] <Dashiva> In English it says "immutable page" which sounds like it won't even help if you login
# [19:18] <DanC> as I said earlier, the W3C systems guys are struggling with the ESW wiki spam problem
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# [20:05] * DanC is bummed about the situation around Sam Ruby http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/03/07/Open-Invitation#c1173393798
# [20:06] <mjs> DanC: someone should take it up with his employer
# [20:06] <mjs> or his AC rep or something
# [20:08] <DanC> yeah; I'm considering it, but (a) I'm struggling to find time, and (b) I think others have contacted the AC rep about this, and I don't want to bother the guy too much
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# [20:12] <mjs> I think he arguably deserves bothering if he is the bottleneck
# [20:12] * DanC follows up internally a bit 1st...
# [20:28] <mjs> does anyone know marcos__'s real name?
# [20:28] <marcos__> I do, Marcos Caceres
# [20:28] <mjs> oh, hey :-)
# [20:28] <marcos__> :)
# [20:28] <mjs> I'm surprised you are awake
# [20:28] <mjs> wanna credit you for contributing to the design principles document when I mail the link
# [20:29] <marcos__> Cool thanks!
# [20:30] * marcos__ getting in some late night coding... that's when the best code is written... even if its javascript :P
# [20:32] <Hixie> DanC: i just got feedback from someone that the mail you get back when trying to subscribe to public-html is bad because it says "you must be a member" without mentioning that you can become a member trivially by following some steps
# [20:32] <Hixie> DanC: (from a w3c member, even)
# [20:33] <Dashiva> and it could be a bit clearer that you get automatically added when you become a member :)
# [20:34] * DanC waves from a teleconference
# [20:35] * Hixie waves from a f2f :-)
# [20:38] <hober> Dashiva: well, given the volume of email on the list, you'd probably figure that out real quick :)
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# [20:49] <ROBOd> mjs: just got your email
# [20:50] <ROBOd> the document seems mostly fine, but i found some typos
# [20:51] <mjs> ROBOd: I encourage you to fix them
# [20:51] <ROBOd> mjs: ok, thanks. i have no wiki account there, for the moment
# [20:51] <ROBOd> i already started the register process
# [20:55] <ROBOd> done, will now edit the document to fix the typos
# [20:59] <ROBOd> mjs: "But this should not be taken as equalizing writing systems by prohibiting features that don't apply to all of them."
# [20:59] <ROBOd> in "Support World Languages". that pretty much sounds "weird". what does it want to say?
# [21:00] <mjs> ROBOd: that's per hsivonen's suggestion
# [21:00] <ROBOd> equalizing writing systems? what does it mean?
# [21:00] <mjs> ROBOd: he says that some people oppose having the <i> element on the basis that not all scripts have italics
# [21:00] <ROBOd> i agree with the suggestion: HTML 5 must be ready for any language, to support any language
# [21:00] <mjs> a more hypothetical example would be opposing ruby markup since it doesn't apply to latin scripts
# [21:01] <ROBOd> but i have something with the phrasing of the copy-pasted sentence
# [21:01] <ROBOd> aha
# [21:01] <ROBOd> now i get it... but that IMHO needs improvements
# [21:02] <ROBOd> it's not quite clear/obvious what it's supposed to mean
# [21:04] <ROBOd> typos fixed, and the document is now updated
# [21:08] <ROBOd> has it yet been decided if W3C HTML 5 will "build upon" the WHATWG HTML 5 spec, or if it's going to be completely different?
# [21:09] <Hixie> not decided yet, danc would be the one to ask though
# [21:10] * marcos__ hopes the WHATWG HTML 5 spec will be brought over...
# [21:10] <marcos__> It saves us at least 2 years of work.
# [21:10] <ROBOd> the Propose Design Principles are quite good, and IIANM, they are (very) similar to the principles of the WHATWG HTML5 spec
# [21:10] <Hixie> yup
# [21:11] <Hixie> (re the principles, i mean)
# [21:11] <marcos__> They should match up
# [21:11] <ROBOd> which is good, but they are only needed if a new spec will be written from scratch
# [21:11] <marcos__> yes and no, they are good to point to in future decision making...
# [21:12] <ROBOd> as a simple member of the HTML WG, knowing the decision is rather "fundamental" ...
# [21:12] <marcos__> it would not be appropriate to constantly point to http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
# [21:13] <marcos__> unless that document actually becomes the design goals for this wg
# [21:13] <marcos__> s/goals/principles
# [21:13] <Hixie> yeah mjs took that doc and used parts of it as a base i think
# [21:13] <Hixie> amongst other sources
# [21:14] <marcos__> that's correct
# [21:38] <mjs> regardless of starting point, it's good to agree on a basis for future decisions
# [21:44] <ROBOd> true, mjs
# [21:45] <ROBOd> i must go now, good night all
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The end :)