/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-03-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 29 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:16] * Joins: chino (daquino@68.36.237.152)
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  5. # [00:21] <chino> i see now that fx3 will support getElementsByClassName (gebcn) and if you ask me there is way to many functions that do the same thing ... getElementBy<whatever>... well a while back i was writing a simple dom parser and instantly thought why not something that could take a list of attributes to match against... well i rolled out a prototype and with some help of others it works very well now and i called it ... getElementsByAttributes... i really believe thi
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  9. # [01:04] <Dashiva> chino: More specific functions can be optimized by the UA
  10. # [01:05] <chino> UA ?
  11. # [01:05] <Dashiva> user agent, i.e. browser
  12. # [01:07] <chino> yea sure if you ask me searching by 1 attribute or by multiple is all the same thing
  13. # [01:08] <chino> if you make it modular in a sence you can only load whatever features you need for memeory management and what not
  14. # [01:09] <chino> but in reality all of the specific function are loaded into memory all the time right ? i mean wheather you use getElementById or not the browser still loads such a feature does it not ?
  15. # [01:10] <chino> Dashiva: then to offer such a super tool youd hav eto use higher level language like js to wrap all the low level calls which in a sense would be just as stupid
  16. # [01:10] <chino> idk wahtever
  17. # [01:10] * Joins: DougJ (djones4@74.76.23.86)
  18. # [01:15] <Dashiva> JS and DOM are generally fairly minimalistic. They don't aim to have a function for every single thing someone might want (coughPHPcough). getElementsByClassName was a extremely common roll-your-own, so HTML5 decided to standardize it
  19. # [01:16] <chino> yes exactly what i was thinking
  20. # [01:16] <chino> your taking the php approach by over bloading the name space
  21. # [01:16] <chino> with 5 billino types of selector tools
  22. # [01:16] <Dashiva> One function is overloading?
  23. # [01:16] <chino> this is "one" selector tool that does what all do
  24. # [01:16] <chino> yes it is
  25. # [01:17] <chino> because your saying getElementsByClassName , getElementsByTagName, getElementById and whatever else
  26. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Not considering it saves thousands of pages the equivalent function definition
  27. # [01:17] <chino> im saying.... 1 .... function .... for .... all.... getElementsByAttributes
  28. # [01:17] <Dashiva> getElementsByTagName does that for you
  29. # [01:17] <chino> what you tlaking about ?
  30. # [01:17] * Joins: Grauw (ask@202.71.92.74)
  31. # [01:17] <Dashiva> get * and filter by attribute
  32. # [01:18] <chino> thats not equivalant what if you want textNodes
  33. # [01:18] <chino> seems to me your contradicting your self
  34. # [01:19] <chino> getElementsByAttributes({tagName:'DIV'}), getElementsByAttributes({id:'example'}), getElementsByAttributes({className:/example/i})
  35. # [01:19] <Dashiva> getElements* by nature only gets elements.
  36. # [01:20] <chino> last time i checked a textnode is an element
  37. # [01:20] <chino> its an element of the dom
  38. # [01:20] <chino> its not a tag
  39. # [01:20] <Dashiva> It's a node, not an element
  40. # [01:20] <Grauw> exactly.
  41. # [01:20] <chino> getElementsByAttributes({ nodeType: 'etc...' })
  42. # [01:20] <Grauw> it's a node, not an element
  43. # [01:20] <chino> fine so maybe the name is wrong but it still encompasses a more centrla pproach to dom searching
  44. # [01:21] <Dashiva> Pave the cowpaths, chino. Don't pave the world
  45. # [01:21] <chino> instead of as you put it "coughPHPcough" bloated name spaces
  46. # [01:21] <Grauw> also byAttributes seems wrong if you're filtering by DOM property, not XML attributes
  47. # [01:21] <chino> well its fuzzy on that part because what are you gonna call something that can check based on attributes propteries method whatever....
  48. # [01:22] <chino> it works just as good with xml documents from my testing
  49. # [01:22] <Grauw> in general, evaluating DOM properties can be much more expensive than XML attributes
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  51. # [01:22] <Grauw> because DOM properties often have getters and DOM attributes do not
  52. # [01:22] <Grauw> *XML attributes
  53. # [01:23] <chino> well anyway the idea is to have it baked down into the browser so selecting by attribute or property should be handled by the underlying c code
  54. # [01:23] * Joins: Lachy_ (chatzilla@220.245.91.147)
  55. # [01:23] <heycam> RRSAgent, pointer?
  56. # [01:23] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-wg-irc#T23-19-39
  57. # [01:23] <heycam> 403 :(
  58. # [01:23] <Dashiva> chino: Are you sure your use case won't be better handled with xpath?
  59. # [01:24] <chino> yea when it comes to xml
  60. # [01:24] <Grauw> XPath is very powerful and fast
  61. # [01:24] <chino> xml is a differne't beast anyway
  62. # [01:24] <Grauw> when it comes to DOM properties... sometimes you just gotta walk over the tree, imho
  63. # [01:24] <jmb> also; what's html specific about this? wouldn't the core dom be a better place for this API extension?
  64. # [01:25] <Grauw> you can't have getElements* for everything
  65. # [01:25] <chino> Grauw: well i use getElementsByAttributes every time i need to walk the dom tree and it saves me so much time
  66. # [01:25] <Dashiva> I think chino wants getNodesByAttributeNameAndValues
  67. # [01:25] <Grauw> by PropertyNameAndValue
  68. # [01:25] <chino> getNodesByCriteria
  69. # [01:26] <chino> would shorten that up a bit
  70. # [01:26] <Grauw> well that would be exactly the same as a DOM nodewalker
  71. # [01:26] <jmb> indeed
  72. # [01:26] <Grauw> criteria is a Javascript expression that either renders true or false
  73. # [01:26] <Grauw> it returns all nodes for which the expression returns true
  74. # [01:26] <Grauw> it already does what you want today :)
  75. # [01:27] <chino> what ?
  76. # [01:27] <chino> whats DOM NodeWalker ?
  77. # [01:28] * Quits: erik (erik@81.175.93.238) (Quit: Bye bye)
  78. # [01:30] <chino> google only shows stuff about java and what not
  79. # [01:30] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@207.47.10.130) (Ping timeout)
  80. # [01:30] <Grauw> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/traversal.html#Traversal-TreeWalker
  81. # [01:30] <Grauw> I had to look it up, never used it myself :)
  82. # [01:32] <Grauw> code example here http://ejohn.org/blog/getelementsbyclassname-speed-comparison/
  83. # [01:35] <chino> is this standard yet ?
  84. # [01:35] <Grauw> yes
  85. # [01:36] <Grauw> part of DOM level 2
  86. # [01:36] <chino> i read that article just today
  87. # [01:36] <chino> yes wtf is dom levle 2 to me
  88. # [01:36] <chino> is it standard in web browsers that work today ?
  89. # [01:36] <Grauw> does that matter?
  90. # [01:36] <Grauw> what you're requesting isn't either
  91. # [01:36] <Grauw> I don't know if it is, the article suggests it is
  92. # [01:36] <chino> yes it matters cause i would use it right now
  93. # [01:36] <Grauw> you wouldn't be able to use what you're suggesting right now either
  94. # [01:37] <Grauw> the HTML WG can do nothing for you ‘right now’
  95. # [01:37] <Grauw> anyway, test it yourself, I don$Bc`QU(B know :)
  96. # [01:37] <chino> dude i have no idea what that crap is but its defintetly javascript dom parsing to create some type of new weird tree for hte user to use
  97. # [01:38] <chino> why not an array of results boggles my mind
  98. # [01:38] <Grauw> it gives a DOM NodeList of results
  99. # [01:38] <mjs> please take discussion of DOM query functions to #webapi
  100. # [01:39] <chino> anyway tree walker is the slowest one in the resulsts lol
  101. # [01:39] <Grauw> which is the same getElementsByTagName returns
  102. # [01:39] <Dashiva> Grauw: What charset are you using?
  103. # [01:39] <Grauw> chino: what you want is slow
  104. # [01:39] <Grauw> Dashiva, I don't know, I think UTF-8
  105. # [01:39] <Dashiva> Your 't in don't looks like $Bc`QU(B
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  107. # [01:39] <Grauw> chino: evaluating properties is slow
  108. # [01:39] <jmb> that ' looks iso2022-like to me
  109. # [01:40] <chino> im done
  110. # [01:40] * Parts: chino (daquino@68.36.237.152)
  111. # [01:40] <Grauw> lol
  112. # [01:40] <Dashiva> I'm not sure how you get that many characters from two...
  113. # [01:40] <Grauw> the channel in mIRC is set to UTF-8: display and encode....
  114. # [01:40] <Grauw> it looks like an escape code
  115. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Which font and script, though?
  116. # [01:41] <Grauw> someone else mentioned it yesterday, but I tried seeing it in XChat2 and that looked exactly the same. also shows up correct in the logs
  117. # [01:41] <Grauw> Fixedsys, Japanese
  118. # [01:41] <Grauw> what IRC client are you using?
  119. # [01:41] <Dashiva> mIRC
  120. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Well, japanese script explains it. Do you also have JIS/SJIS conversion enabled?
  121. # [01:42] <Grauw> ‘test’
  122. # [01:42] <Grauw> that better?
  123. # [01:42] <Dashiva> The conversion mode corrupts utf-8
  124. # [01:42] <Dashiva> Yes, that works
  125. # [01:42] <Grauw> I see
  126. # [01:42] <Grauw> cool
  127. # [01:42] <Grauw> leave it to mIRC to have obscure behaviour and options like that :)
  128. # [01:42] <Dashiva> I have to enable it temporarily when I talk to people using jis, luckily that's only rarely
  129. # [01:43] <Dashiva> Yeah, it shows the unicode support was a late add-on
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  144. # [05:25] <marcos_> AAARGGG!!! those stupid issues numbers in the wiki make me so angry!!!
  145. # [05:27] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  146. # [05:31] <Lachy_> marcos_: calm down. Take a deep breath, count to 10, and you'll feel better :-)
  147. # [05:31] <marcos_> 1 2 3 4....
  148. # [05:32] <Lachy_> Response02: oops, I forgot to prefix that with Response01
  149. # [05:32] <marcos_> hehe
  150. # [05:32] <marcos_> breath01
  151. # [05:32] <marcos_> breath02
  152. # [05:33] <tylerr_> I've got my own reasons to shout tonight.
  153. # [05:33] <Lachy_> tylerr_, what reasons?
  154. # [05:34] <tylerr_> Fellow developers at work spent a week saying, "We cant' get this RSS behavior widget to work." I spent 30 seconds looking beyond the immediate issue and found the solution.
  155. # [05:34] <Lachy_> nice! what was the problem?
  156. # [05:35] <tylerr_> They were leaving out critical attributes that the widget depended on for specific functionality. I simply looked at how another vendor set up their widgets, adapted the code to meet the need of our client's requets, and there you have it. :-)
  157. # [05:36] <Lachy_> why are you using RSS? Why not Atom?
  158. # [05:36] <tylerr_> Basically they didn't notice the big fat "Edit" button next to each attribute.
  159. # [05:36] <marcos_> or json
  160. # [05:36] <tylerr_> Internal publishing tool.
  161. # [05:37] <tylerr_> Not our product rather. We just build using it. :-)
  162. # [05:37] <Lachy_> which of the 10 versions of RSS are you using?
  163. # [05:37] <marcos_> hehe
  164. # [05:37] <tylerr_> No clue myself. That's burried in the source code.
  165. # [05:38] <tylerr_> Which is off limits. hah
  166. # [05:38] <Lachy_> ah, RSS is a good example of what not to do, next time the versioning argument pops up!
  167. # [05:39] * Quits: marcos_ (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Quit: ...and I'm gone.)
  168. # [05:39] <tylerr_> Definitely. I'll be suggesting Atom.
  169. # [05:39] <tylerr_> Though this is MS, so I'll have to work through a couple levels of management.
  170. # [05:39] <tylerr_> Which is no problem, they're all nice over there and are willing to listen to vendor requests.
  171. # [05:42] <tylerr_> Anyway, how's your day been Lachy_?
  172. # [05:43] <Lachy_> not too bad
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  176. # [06:47] <tylerr_> Hey there Zeros.
  177. # [06:47] <Zeros> hey
  178. # [06:48] <tylerr_> Welcome too the quietest room tonight.
  179. # [06:48] <Zeros> Maybe there's plotting going on
  180. # [06:49] <tylerr_> This is true. haha
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  193. # [10:37] * marcos_ wonders if this is the quiet before the storm...
  194. # [10:42] <anne> "Let every element have a src attribute"
  195. # [10:42] <anne> someone just had to propose it...
  196. # [10:43] <marcos_> was it mike? :D
  197. # [10:44] <mjs> we gave the XPeople the xhtml two working group
  198. # [10:44] <mjs> why can't they stay there?
  199. # [10:44] <mjs> I should update the design principles doc, and maybe propose we adopt at least the ones that were not at all disputed
  200. # [10:44] <mjs> but probably not tonight cause I need some sleep
  201. # [10:45] <marcos_> and not over the weekend ;)
  202. # [10:45] <marcos_> Next monday
  203. # [10:45] <mjs> I can find time tomorrow (it will be Thursday)
  204. # [10:46] <anne> oh Lachy already pointed out my article on href= on every element
  205. # [10:46] <anne> and listed several other reasons
  206. # [10:46] * marcos_ goes home....
  207. # [10:47] <anne> it should be Thursday on the west coast by now :)
  208. # [10:48] <Lachy> good evening
  209. # [10:49] <mjs> yes, it's 1:45 AM Thursday, but I don't consider it the next day until after I sleep
  210. # [10:51] * anne knows the feeling
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  212. # [10:52] <hsivonen> IIRC, en-GB-x-hixie formalizes that kind of day notion
  213. # [10:54] <anne> interesting
  214. # [10:54] <anne> would be nice if we could make that cross-language though :)
  215. # [10:56] <Lachy> hey, what's with the lang=en-x-google in the XBL Primer draft? I was reviewing it today and noticed
  216. # [10:57] <anne> I think the idea is that spelling is decided by Google in doubt
  217. # [10:57] <Lachy> lol
  218. # [10:58] <mjs> en-x-as-she-are-spoke
  219. # [10:58] <Lachy> there are quite a few errors in that draft, actually. like <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/ns/xbl">, among others :-)
  220. # [10:59] <anne> I wonder if that's the latest version
  221. # [10:59] <Lachy> it's in CVS
  222. # [11:00] <anne> yeah, but I believe marcos_ made some changes
  223. # [11:00] <Lachy> he checked in the latest version for me to read about 2 days ago
  224. # [11:01] <anne> oh I see
  225. # [11:01] <anne> Overview.src.html is out of sync with Overview.html
  226. # [11:01] <Lachy> is there an appformats channel somewhere for discussing XBL and other stuff?
  227. # [11:02] <Lachy> I'm reading the .src.html one, it's newer
  228. # [11:02] <mjs> #waf probably
  229. # [11:02] <Lachy> on freenode or irc.w3.org?
  230. # [11:02] <anne> irc.w3.org
  231. # [11:02] <Lachy> found it
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  235. # [11:36] <alexf> hello everybody, good morning
  236. # [11:36] <Lachy> hi alexf
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  243. # [12:52] <hsivonen> the protection measure thread kept going on, so I replied. :-(
  244. # [12:53] <Dashiva> I almost did so myself, but then two othe people did just as I was going to hit compose, so I got out
  245. # [12:57] <anne> hsivonen, I consider it highly unlikely that he'll just accept what you say
  246. # [12:57] <anne> and leave it
  247. # [12:58] <anne> (your message was interesting though)
  248. # [12:59] <hsivonen> anne: you may be right. my argument should be harder to refute than philosophical arguments or arguments about the nature of the Web or arguments about what authors should or should not want.
  249. # [13:01] <anne> yeah, simplest for him would be to simply ignore it
  250. # [13:07] <Dashiva> I wish someone had made a point out of "scripts preventing right-click", though :)
  251. # [13:08] <hsivonen> Dashiva: btw, what's your email name on the mailing list?
  252. # [13:09] <Dashiva> Magnus Kristiansen
  253. # [13:09] <hsivonen> ok
  254. # [13:28] * Parts: icaaq (icaaaq@217.13.228.226)
  255. # [13:38] <anne> "199 Invited Experts"
  256. # [13:39] * Parts: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  257. # [13:45] <Lachy> I wonder if all those code obfuscation scripts some people write for their HMTL are classified as DRM?
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  260. # [14:07] <Lachy> I'm wondering if I should reply to that multipart thread once more and explain the concept of CID: URIs to Henrik, but I don't really want the thread to continue
  261. # [14:08] <anne> CID?
  262. # [14:08] <Lachy> Content ID
  263. # [14:09] <Lachy> it's used in HTML e-mails that include the embedded images as attachement
  264. # [14:09] <Lachy> so basically everything (s)he is asking for is already technically available, we're only lacking the implementations of it over HTTP
  265. # [14:09] <Lachy> plus there's also MHT
  266. # [14:10] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  267. # [14:10] <Lachy> plus browsers already support multipart/x-mixed-replace
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  272. # [15:28] * anne replies to the src= thread
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  274. # [15:37] <Lachy> Hixie's recent usemap attribute blog entry is so much more interesting to read when I can follow all of the links. Awesome! :-)
  275. # [15:39] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
  276. # [15:40] * Lachy wonders if I'm allowed to publicly quote something from the member archives? It would make an awsome topic for this channel
  277. # [15:41] <anne> no
  278. # [15:41] <Lachy> did'nt think so
  279. # [15:41] <anne> wouldn't make sense to have member only if that was the case
  280. # [15:41] <Lachy> yeah, I suppose
  281. # [15:42] <anne> this Henrik guy clearly makes no sense
  282. # [15:42] <anne> it would actually be good if those people joined IRC
  283. # [15:42] <Lachy> oh, he's more...
  284. # [15:42] <Lachy> *posted* more...
  285. # [15:43] <anne> on IRC it's really easy to debate with people who make no sense
  286. # [15:43] <anne> (well, not always, but mostly it works)
  287. # [15:44] <krijnh> 'you make no sense' /kick user
  288. # [15:47] <hsivonen> other than IE compat, what's the merit of MHT over data:? both waste bytes requiring Base64, right?
  289. # [15:53] * Quits: Grauw (ask@202.71.92.74) (Ping timeout)
  290. # [15:55] <hsivonen> oh, readability and size limit
  291. # [15:55] <hsivonen> is the size limit enforced?
  292. # [16:06] * Joins: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235)
  293. # [16:08] <tylerr> Hello all.
  294. # [16:08] <anne> good afternoon / morning / e-day
  295. # [16:09] <tylerr> Hah, 7am here at work. :-)
  296. # [16:10] * Lachy sends one last reply to the multipart thread
  297. # [16:10] <tylerr> I'm scared to open my e-mail, haven't checked it in 12 hours. :-)
  298. # [16:10] <tylerr> Oh wow, only 12 new, woo!
  299. # [16:11] <tylerr> Anyway, how's everyone today?
  300. # [16:11] <Lachy> same as I was when you asked me earlier today :-)
  301. # [16:19] <tylerr> Hah, righto. :-)
  302. # [16:24] <ROBOd> hello! i've read the backlog, and almost an hour ago Lachy asked about publicly quoting something from the member archives. which member archives? the public-html archives?
  303. # [16:24] <anne> W3C Member only archives
  304. # [16:25] <ROBOd> aha, so it was not about public-html
  305. # [16:25] <anne> typically with "Member" in the URL
  306. # [16:25] <anne> public-html is part of the Public archives
  307. # [16:26] <ROBOd> i asked because this is normally a discussion about the html-wg....
  308. # [16:26] <anne> this was about the old HTML WG...
  309. # [16:26] <ROBOd> ok, thanks for the clarification
  310. # [16:30] <anne> 200IE now
  311. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke, こんばんは。今SFCにいる。(will be here all night because I've already missed the last bus)
  312. # [16:33] <Shunsuke> Hi :)
  313. # [16:33] <Lachy> ROBOd, I'm in the process of joining the Web API and WAF WG's, so I get member access
  314. # [16:34] <anne> s/get/got/
  315. # [16:34] * anne notes that this ain't a secret anymore as everyone can see it on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
  316. # [16:35] <ROBOd> congrats Lachy and good luck in the WGs ;)
  317. # [16:37] * Lachy goes to write a blog entry to announce it to the world (or at least to those that read my blog)
  318. # [16:38] <tylerr> Very cool Lachy. I'm interested in joining the WAI one.
  319. # [16:38] <Lachy> why?
  320. # [16:38] <tylerr> My big interest and education was in accessibility.
  321. # [16:38] <Lachy> have you seen WCAG2? From what I've read about it, it seems WAI is on a similar path as the XHTML2 WG
  322. # [16:39] <tylerr> Yeah I've read all up on it. I'm interested in seeing the internals and perhaps lend another viewpoint/angle.
  323. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke, Masataka Yakura is your friend I met at CSSNite?
  324. # [16:41] <Shunsuke> Mike: I don't know about him, maybe not.
  325. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke - Yudai Iwasaki?
  326. # [16:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: congrats
  327. # [16:42] <Lachy> thanks
  328. # [16:42] <Shunsuke> Mike: Yeah, you met Yudai at the CSS Nite :)
  329. # [16:42] <Lachy> I've been waiting patiently to tell everyone for nearly 2 weeks :-)
  330. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke - thanks
  331. # [16:43] <Yudai> Hi Mike
  332. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Yudai - aha
  333. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> Yudai - Hope you've been well. Sorry my memory is foggy.. and it's been a long time
  334. # [16:45] <tylerr> Congrats Lachy. :-)
  335. # [16:46] <Yudai> mike: no problem :)
  336. # [16:48] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  337. # [16:49] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  338. # [16:52] * Joins: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234)
  339. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> Yudai - I'm trying to remember if you're studying at SFC also
  340. # [16:57] <Yudai> Yes, I'm a student at SFC
  341. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> Yudai - when are you guys coming back for next term?
  342. # [17:03] <Yudai> We will be back at ... 8 or 9, April
  343. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> Yudai - OK. btw, you and Shunsuke know that W3C has open positions on the Keio team for an "HTML and Web Applications"-related and SVG-related positions?
  344. # [17:17] <h3h> how do you score that gig? :)
  345. # [17:17] <Lachy> h3h, you talking to me?
  346. # [17:18] <h3h> no...talking about the Keio position(s)
  347. # [17:18] <anne> just apply...
  348. # [17:18] <h3h> URL?
  349. # [17:18] * h3h looks
  350. # [17:18] <anne> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/
  351. # [17:18] <anne> (from "g w3c job")
  352. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> h3h - specific page is http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html
  353. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> and http://www.w3.org/2007/01/CDF-SVG-position.html
  354. # [17:19] <anne> "LEAD THE DEVELOPMENT OF WEB TECHNOLOGY" heh
  355. # [17:20] <h3h> interesting
  356. # [17:20] * anne thinks that sounds a lot more fun than being team contact (which is what you'd apply for)
  357. # [17:22] <h3h> probably less enticing for someone who already gets to work full-time on HTML
  358. # [17:22] <h3h> I don't :)
  359. # [17:23] <tylerr> h3h: Welcome to my world. ;-)
  360. # [17:23] <tylerr> Rather, working full-time on HTML.
  361. # [17:23] <tylerr> Or do you mean the "development" of it?
  362. # [17:25] <h3h> i mean on the specs/proposals/test cases/issues
  363. # [17:25] <h3h> I work *with* HTML full-time, but that's different :)
  364. # [17:25] <tylerr> Right, *on* and *with*, silly distinctions. ;-)
  365. # [17:33] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  366. # [17:36] * Joins: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  367. # [17:37] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  368. # [17:38] <DanC> we're not having a telcon, but if I can clear my desk a bit, I can do some "chair's office hours" chatting, perhaps.
  369. # [17:39] <Lachy> DanC, are there any plans for a future telcon?
  370. # [17:40] <DanC> umm... sorta. nothing concrete
  371. # [17:40] <DanC> care to suggest a time/day?
  372. # [17:41] <DanC> there's some stuff in our charter and the W3C process document that you might consider plans; i.e. since no teleconfence time has been announced to public-html, the next teleconference is at least 7 days away
  373. # [17:41] <Lachy> I already gave you the times I'm available in that survey. Other than that, I'm not sure what we really need to discuss
  374. # [17:42] <DanC> sounds like you're content to leave the next telcon unscheduled. I think I am too, for a bit.
  375. # [17:42] <tylerr> I'm available any time during typical PST working hours.
  376. # [17:42] <DanC> tylerr, did you tell the survey that? or PeopleLocation in the esw wiki?
  377. # [17:43] <tylerr> I have my PeopleLocation entry, would you like me to add availability?
  378. # [17:43] <DanC> up to you
  379. # [17:43] <Lachy> I'm available from around 09:00 to 15:00 UTC weekdays, plus almost any time on weekends
  380. # [17:44] <DanC> in preparation for a WG telcon, I got as far as tidying up the WG homepage a bit. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ . any comments/feedback welcome.
  381. # [17:44] <tylerr> Great I'll take a peek today.
  382. # [17:45] <Lachy> How about you clarify that schedule of deliveries on that page so people don't get confused and actually think we can deliever a finished spec by then
  383. # [17:46] <tylerr> Okay DanC, I'm going to add availability after my location in the PeopleLocation page.
  384. # [17:46] * Quits: anne (annevk@86.90.70.28) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [17:47] <DanC> I plan to deliver a finished spec by then, so I don't find it confusing, Lachy
  386. # [17:47] <Lachy> ha!
  387. # [17:48] <tylerr> :-)
  388. # [17:48] <DanC> any features we can't specify to our own satisfaction by 2008 Q2 don't go in. That's the plan.
  389. # [17:48] <DanC> as we get more data, we can adjust the plan. But I don't yet see a reason to change it.
  390. # [17:48] <Lachy> it's not a matter of specifying them, it's a matter of getting them interoperably implemented
  391. # [17:49] <DanC> that's right; we'll need implementor feedback as we do the design.
  392. # [17:49] <Lachy> that requries test cases (real test cases, not the kind you've been asking for on the list)
  393. # [17:49] <Lachy> and that requires a lot of time and effort to create
  394. # [17:49] <DanC> I agree it requires taking the sort of test case ideas I've been talking about and doing the other 80% of the work.
  395. # [17:50] <Lachy> roughly how many test cases do you think we need in total (just a ballpark figure will be fine)
  396. # [17:50] <DanC> good question... hmm...
  397. # [17:50] <mjs> hi everyone
  398. # [17:50] <hsivonen> mjs: hi
  399. # [17:51] <mjs> hello hsivonen
  400. # [17:51] <tylerr> Okay DanC, how does this look? http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
  401. # [17:51] <hsivonen> DanC: the schedule looks like it assumes the HTML5+Hixie package :-)
  402. # [17:51] <Lachy> I'll just point you to the FAQ entry we have written on this issue...
  403. # [17:51] <tylerr> Hi mjs.
  404. # [17:51] <DanC> the only feature I understand well enough to plan for is the parsing stuff. I think 500 would be enough to start CR and 5000 would be enough to finish.
  405. # [17:52] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#schedule
  406. # [17:52] <Lachy> 500 is not enough, even for just parsing
  407. # [17:52] <DanC> i.e. I'll want to develop 500 tests while we're finishing the design and 4500 after we "freeze"
  408. # [17:53] <DanC> I think having the WG carefully explore 500 test cases is likely to lead to a reasonably robust design.
  409. # [17:53] <DanC> then, once we think we have the design done, 10x that many to confirm.
  410. # [17:53] <mjs> how many testable assertions are in the whatwg spec currently?
  411. # [17:54] <DanC> more than I care to count
  412. # [17:54] <mjs> (though to be fair, Hixie uses a lot of fancy compound sentences)
  413. # [17:54] <mjs> obviously (?) one test per testable assertion is the barest floor for what you need
  414. # [17:54] <DanC> if we can get thru 1/3rd of what's in HTML5 today, I'll be happy.
  415. # [17:54] <hsivonen> as a side note, it would be useful for conformance checking if test cases had a flag if they are conforming (with scripts not running)
  416. # [17:55] <hsivonen> e.g. Anne's WF 2.0 suite doesn't have this feature, so I have to classify the tests myself
  417. # [17:55] <tylerr> DanC: Let's get hopping then! ;-)
  418. # [17:56] <DanC> going by testable assertions is kinda boring/inefficient. I like a few tests to demonstrate each interesting feature, and then a test for every actual interop issue that comes up in WG discussion
  419. # [17:56] <Lachy> would it be useful to publish some test case authoring guidlines, like the CSSWG have done?
  420. # [17:56] <DanC> every time somebody says something like "mobile browsers don't support XHTML", my "can I have a test case, please?" muscle twitches.
  421. # [17:57] <Lachy> I can assure you that many mobile phones don't really support XHTML, I have run dozens of test cases on several phones at work
  422. # [17:57] <mjs> going by testable assertions is the bare minimum of what you need to have a test suite that can establish interoperability
  423. # [17:57] <DanC> test writing guidelines will probably be quite useful, yes, especially if they come from somebody who is speaking from experience and offering at least a few dozen tests at the same time.
  424. # [17:57] <hsivonen> I guess saying that should be accompanied with the zcorpan link :-)
  425. # [17:57] <Lachy> most of them treat XHTML as tag soup and don't report well formedness errors
  426. # [17:58] <DanC> well, I would like to have that fact captured in a test case, crystal clear.
  427. # [17:58] <Lachy> http://simon.html5.org/test/
  428. # [17:58] * Joins: Philip (excors@80.177.163.133)
  429. # [17:59] <Lachy> see /mobile/ on that site
  430. # [17:59] <hsivonen> DanC: http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results
  431. # [17:59] * DanC follows the mobile link...
  432. # [17:59] <Lachy> and that one too
  433. # [17:59] <DanC> ooh! excellent. gold star.
  434. # [18:00] <DanC> now... for every row in the table with a red cell, please give me some contact info so I can recruit that person to the WG to turn the box green, or to convince us to change the spec, or whtever.
  435. # [18:01] <DanC> 1/2 ;-)
  436. # [18:02] <Lachy> I guess you should contact the mobile phone vendors
  437. # [18:02] <mjs> changing the spec to have XHTML processed as tag soup would remove any point to XHTML, wouldn't it?
  438. # [18:02] <DanC> probably. I haven't thought it thru all the way yet.
  439. # [18:02] <Lachy> some have argued that defining non-draconian error handling for XML2 would also be sensible
  440. # [18:02] <DanC> but now I have the details that I like to have to start studying.
  441. # [18:03] <mjs> hey Nokia's WebKit browser fails two of those
  442. # [18:03] <mjs> that's a little embarassing
  443. # [18:03] <DanC> heh! now we're cooking!
  444. # [18:03] <hsivonen> DanC: I'd rather have the HTML5 parsing algorithm extended with SVG and MathML
  445. # [18:03] <hsivonen> DanC: (rather than breaking the XML code path)
  446. # [18:03] <Lachy> yes, Nokia's WebKit doesn't use XML parsing. I was surprised when I was using a nokia at work
  447. # [18:03] <mjs> they both work in Safari
  448. # [18:04] <hsivonen> changing the XML code path would require XML5
  449. # [18:04] * DanC is actively recruiting Nokia folks; pretty optimistic
  450. # [18:04] <mjs> I wonder why they disabled XML
  451. # [18:04] <Lachy> probably because so much mobile content is tag soup
  452. # [18:04] <hsivonen> which would no doubt get a lot of stop energy from the XML folks
  453. # [18:04] <Lachy> and that's probably because so many other phones use tag soup parsers
  454. # [18:05] <DanC> hsivonen, if you can convince all the folks that do the implementations in http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results to add SVG/MathML to the parsing algorithm, then we'll be golden.
  455. # [18:05] <Lachy> it's really annoying, cause a couple of well-formedness errors nearly slipped through on the mobile sites I developed recently
  456. # [18:06] <DanC> (if the discussion stays this juicy, there's no way I'll get back to clearing my desk...)
  457. # [18:06] <mjs> Lachy: hah, probably mobile vendor walled garden content requires treating XHTML as tag soup now
  458. # [18:06] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.82.206.111)
  459. # [18:06] <mjs> although Opera does it right
  460. # [18:07] <anne> as always
  461. # [18:07] <anne> ...
  462. # [18:07] <hsivonen> my guess is that the Nokia change to WebKit has something to do with the WAP Forum bogosities that can occur as application/xhtml+xml
  463. # [18:07] <hsivonen> (Opera has sniffing for said bogosity according to docs)
  464. # [18:07] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Quit: See you...)
  465. # [18:07] <Lachy> mjs, yep, that's exactly right!
  466. # [18:07] <DanC> how does Opera get it right all the time? you guys must have a pile of test cases. And if it's probably a big competitive advantage, so I'd probably have to twist your arm pretty hard to get you to donate them to W3C.
  467. # [18:08] <anne> we're in some Testsuites WG I believe
  468. # [18:08] <anne> we also have a limited set of public tests: http://tc.labs.opera.com/
  469. # [18:08] <anne> but mostly I was just joking above :)
  470. # [18:09] <mjs> WebKit has a buttload of public test cases, but I don't know how many of them are suitable for use as working group conformance tests
  471. # [18:09] <hsivonen> DanC: rumor has it that Opera has automated the process of regression testing against Hixie's public test suites
  472. # [18:09] <Philip> Related to test writing, would it be worth pointing out http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/ ? I completely ignored the existing test writing guidelines, since they seemed to require too much non-laziness, but I think it works alright anyway (at least with <canvas> since it's easy to test)
  473. # [18:09] <tylerr> DanC: Anything I can do to help today? I'm busy at work but can multitask if it's a smaller job. :-)
  474. # [18:09] * DanC wishes for all test test materials pointers to find a common home in an ESW wiki topic
  475. # [18:09] <mjs> maybe some of the <script> + document.write() ones would be interesting
  476. # [18:10] <DanC> tylerr, you could work on my wish. Maybe start in HtmlAsSheAreSpoke, and split out a separate HtmlTestMaterials topic if you get very far
  477. # [18:10] <DanC> or is it HTMLAsSheAreSpoke...
  478. # [18:10] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTMLAsSheAreSpoke
  479. # [18:10] <tylerr> That's the one.
  480. # [18:11] <anne> regarding amount of tests, I'd estimate 50.000
  481. # [18:11] <tylerr> Okay cool I'll take a look DanC.
  482. # [18:11] <DanC> tyler, I did some noodling on test material pointers in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 under Test case candidates, e.g. "See van Kesteren 14 Mar for pointers to some more test materials"
  483. # [18:12] <tylerr> Great!
  484. # [18:12] <tylerr> I'll ramp myself up on that during my downtime.
  485. # [18:14] <DanC> I think I have a few relevant resources in http://del.icio.us/connolly/xhtml+quality too, tylerr
  486. # [18:14] <tylerr> Perfect. Building out a bookmark folder. :-)
  487. # [18:15] <DanC> mjs, the 1st thing I bookmarked under xhtml+quality seems to be a bunch of webkit tests. http://webkit.opendarwin.org/quality/testing.html
  488. # [18:16] <DanC> back in Nov 2005
  489. # [18:16] <DanC> (which is probably long after most of you started paying attention to this sort of stuff)
  490. # [18:17] <DanC> that list reminds me of something that bugs me all the time... I checked the charter, and "best practices" isn't in our deliverables, but I might cheat an use some HTML WG airtime for this anyway...
  491. # [18:18] <DanC> [[ "The majority of sites on the web do this [use fonts smaller than 100%]. It is now the norm, and is expected by users whether they are aware of it or not. " phtphpht. ]]
  492. # [18:18] <DanC> -- http://usabletype.com/about/
  493. # [18:19] <DanC> I tagged it "disagree"; I wonder if there's a delicious convention ala the apache -1
  494. # [18:19] * DanC wonders if the votelink microformat has a way to vote against
  495. # [18:19] <tylerr> :-)
  496. # [18:20] <tylerr> I was actually wondering if we'd want to incorporate hCard and geo into the PeopleLocation wiki?
  497. # [18:21] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  498. # [18:21] <Lachy> is it even possible to do that with the wiki syntax?
  499. # [18:21] <DanC> I like the idea, tylerr ; I don't know how feasible it is...
  500. # [18:21] * tylerr nods.
  501. # [18:21] <DanC> that sort of thing is why I'd like to switch to semantic mediawiki
  502. # [18:22] <Lachy> MediaWiki has better URIs too, since it allows spaces in titles
  503. # [18:22] <Lachy> and links
  504. # [18:22] <tylerr> Yeah, it'd be a lovely opportunity to use uf.
  505. # [18:23] <DanC> the W3C systems team doesn't have bandwidth to play with mediawiki yet, but I expect they will eventually.
  506. # [18:24] <DanC> the whatwg wiki is mediawiki. if it had openid support, I'd think seriously of putting some energy into it
  507. # [18:24] <tylerr> Who can we talk to to get OID rolling with that?
  508. # [18:25] <anne> if there's a easy to install plugin it might be feasiblee
  509. # [18:25] * Quits: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86) (Quit: Quit)
  510. # [18:25] <hsivonen> DanC: does vanilla MediaWiki have OpenID support? the guiding principle with whatwg.org software is that it is more likely to get installed if Dreamhost offers it with one click
  511. # [18:25] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
  512. # [18:25] <DanC> there's a plugin. the simile folks have installed it (ryan lee). I don't know how easy it is
  513. # [18:25] <tylerr> http://www.openidenabled.com/software/mediawiki
  514. # [18:26] <DanC> no, I don't think OpenID comes out-of-the-box yet
  515. # [18:26] <DanC> ah... so whatwg uses dreamhost for support
  516. # [18:26] <hsivonen> DanC: Hixie has delegated some software tweaking to Lachy and zcorpan, so they might be empowered to fix stuff
  517. # [18:26] <DanC> they probably charge less than $50,000/year ;-)
  518. # [18:27] <DanC> actually, they probably get income from W3C, but from more customers.
  519. # [18:27] <DanC> hpph
  520. # [18:27] <tylerr> :-p
  521. # [18:27] <DanC> actually, they probably get more income than W3C, but from more customers.
  522. # [18:27] <anne> I think it's hosted on Hixie's server
  523. # [18:28] <anne> not sure who pays the bills
  524. # [18:29] <tylerr> **shifty eyes**
  525. # [18:30] <anne> anyway, Hixie manages the domain
  526. # [18:31] * Parts: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  527. # [18:33] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/03/w3c - finally finished it! :-)
  528. # [18:33] <anne> you haven't joined WAF officially yet, have you?
  529. # [18:34] <Lachy> no officially, but the application is in progress
  530. # [18:34] * Joins: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.187.33)
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  533. # [18:36] <tylerr> Lachy: "is that I get access much"
  534. # [18:36] <tylerr> Third paragraph from bottom.
  535. # [18:36] <tylerr> Err, rather, last real paragraph.
  536. # [18:36] <tylerr> Before the tags and RSS paras.
  537. # [18:37] <Lachy> oops, typo
  538. # [18:37] <Lachy> fixed
  539. # [18:37] <tylerr> :-) And congrats again!
  540. # [18:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  541. # [18:40] <anne> Re: XML on mobiles. I think that's one of the reasons we need XML2 / XML5.
  542. # [19:02] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@204.97.106.159)
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  544. # [19:06] <Lachy> yay! Finally got a conclusion to the multipart thread :-)
  545. # [19:09] <hasather> Lachy: congrats on joining the WebAPI WG
  546. # [19:09] <Lachy> thanks
  547. # [19:12] <Lachy> I must go to bed, good night all :-)
  548. # [19:12] <hasather> night
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  552. # [19:27] <tylerr> Night Lachy.
  553. # [19:31] <DougJ> I have not found a glossary of English terms used for discussing and specifying HTML. I believe it is important that we develop definitions that are agreed upon. Different dictionaries can provide definitions that in part seem to contradict one another and add to our confusion. I did post an e-mail the other day with a small glossary. I have since edited it and want to create a wiki page. Does this sound reasonable?
  554. # [19:32] <anne> you don't need permission to create a wiki page
  555. # [19:33] <DougJ> I know that, thanks. I just was wondering if further work in this area seems warranted by others.
  556. # [19:33] <anne> personally I think that if a word is used differently from its dictionary meaning the spec should define what it means
  557. # [19:35] <DougJ> Agreed, but it doesn't, at least not always clearly at the present. And it depends on which dictionary someone is looking in.
  558. # [19:37] <anne> I think it does...
  559. # [19:37] <anne> but again, if you feel a Wiki page is necessary you're free to create one
  560. # [19:39] <DougJ> ok
  561. # [19:40] <anne> anyway, it would probably be helpful if you pointed out where the specification is unclear
  562. # [19:40] <anne> because if it's unclear, creating a glossary won't necessarily make the specification itself clearer
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  564. # [19:41] <Hixie> hosting of whatwg is nominally paid for by me
  565. # [19:41] <Hixie> though in practice i'm currently breaking even on downstream referral kickbacks
  566. # [19:42] <DougJ> I'll include that in the purpose for the glossary. And the glossary may help us make the specification clearer.
  567. # [19:45] * Parts: DougJ (djones4@74.76.23.86)
  568. # [19:52] <tylerr> Hey folks, I went ahead and added an availability section to the PeopleLocation page (http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation), if you'd like to list the times you're most active, feel free to append your entry.
  569. # [19:52] <tylerr> And if you have a better idea of how to implement availability, do change it. :-)
  570. # [19:55] * anne is available except when he isn't
  571. # [19:56] <tylerr> I have that luxury as well, the nice thing though is that I have forecasted time to help with this now as part of my job. :-)
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  580. # [20:37] <tylerr> Hey Hixie.
  581. # [20:40] <mjs> I split the design principles into categories
  582. # [20:42] <tylerr> Can we color those category headers? :-)
  583. # [20:43] <tylerr> A bit hard to tell between header and subheader.
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  595. # [22:52] <beowulf> hello
  596. # [22:52] <beowulf> i like the idea of metadata being made visible
  597. # [22:53] <beowulf> as an option
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  606. # Session Close: Fri Mar 30 00:00:00 2007

The end :)