/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 06 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] * Parts: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.187.33)
  4. # [00:16] <mjs> I'm not really sure how role is different, other than being harder to use from CSS
  5. # [00:34] <Hixie> i don't understand what "role" is
  6. # [00:34] <Hixie> it seems to be whatever people want it to be to support their argument that it should be used
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  10. # [01:14] <Dashiva> It seems to be role is like class, except there's no trivial CSS selector for it
  11. # [01:14] <Dashiva> *to me
  12. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Just like people put anything they want to note into class, they seem to put anything they want to note into role
  13. # [01:23] <myakura> and role values are namespaced
  14. # [01:24] <myakura> wonders what we can do with it then..
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  29. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> myakura - おはよう。you based in Japan?
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  32. # [02:05] <olivier> hello world
  33. # [02:05] * MikeSmith is now known as world
  34. # [02:06] <world> hello olivier
  35. # [02:06] * world is now known as MikeSmith
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  39. # [02:25] <karl> I'm just a comet with a destiny to vanish...
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  43. # [02:29] <myakura> MikeSmith:ah, yeah. kanazawa, ishikawa.
  44. # [02:30] <karl> myakura: you should add your name and Location on this list http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
  45. # [02:30] <karl> ooops
  46. # [02:30] <karl> already done
  47. # [02:30] <karl> cool!
  48. # [02:30] <myakura> yeah, did it yesterday :)
  49. # [02:33] <myakura> hmm never thought one of the chairs works in japan
  50. # [02:35] <karl> hmmm none myakura
  51. # [02:35] <myakura> oh, just visiting?
  52. # [02:35] <karl> Dan Connolly is in US
  53. # [02:35] <karl> Chris Wilson is in US
  54. # [02:35] <karl> They are the two co-chairs
  55. # [02:36] <karl> I'm the HTML W3C staff contact :) and I like in Japan indeed.
  56. # [02:36] <myakura> oh, i thought you were the another.
  57. # [02:37] <karl> I'm in the interim wg staff contact - http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
  58. # [02:37] <karl> there is an open position for being the staff contact of this group and Web Applications.
  59. # [02:37] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html
  60. # [02:38] <karl> based at Keio University
  61. # [02:38] <myakura> yeah, i was looking at it the other day
  62. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> myakura - you know Yasuhisa Hasegawa (CSS book author)?
  63. # [02:38] <karl> and another one still at Keio to work on CDF and SVG
  64. # [02:38] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/CDF-SVG-position.html
  65. # [02:38] * myakura is in the job-hunting
  66. # [02:39] <myakura> yasuhisa?
  67. # [02:39] <myakura> ah the http://www.could.com/ guy
  68. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> yeah
  69. # [02:41] <olivier> mmm Kanazawa
  70. # [02:41] <olivier> one of my favorite cities in this country
  71. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> btw, I like nihon-kai side.. never been to Ishikawa-ken
  72. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> like to go some time
  73. # [02:41] <myakura> no, i'm not acquainted with anybody in this channel
  74. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> myakura - what are the most famous onsen in Ishikawa-ken?
  75. # [02:42] <myakura> actually i'm hoping for getting a job in tokyo area..
  76. # [02:42] <myakura> i like Wakura onsen in Noto
  77. # [02:43] <karl> myakura: meet olivier, another person of W3C, working mainly on QA tools, validators and others and being in Japan
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  79. # [02:43] <myakura> wow :)
  80. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> myakura - job in Kanto area (Yokohama, or, say, Fujisawa) or strictly in Tokyo?
  81. # [02:44] <myakura> not strictly, but closer to tokyo is better
  82. # [02:44] <karl> 1h, 2h, 3h commuting ? :p
  83. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> myakura - I'm in Japan too. me and olivier and karl are twin brothers
  84. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> well, triplets
  85. # [02:44] <karl> MikeSmith: mom, never told me that !!!!
  86. # [02:44] <karl> :p
  87. # [02:45] <myakura> it takes 4hrs and half to get tokyo from kanazawa
  88. # [02:45] <myakura> hah
  89. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> myakura - W3C/Keio SFC is ~45 min to 1 hour from Tokyo by express train
  90. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> depnding on what part of tokyo
  91. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> well, more - because you need to take a bus from station to campus
  92. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> myakura - so you are student now? Or an employed "man of leisure"?
  93. # [02:46] <karl> leisure rhyme with pleasure!
  94. # [02:46] <karl> leisure++
  95. # [02:47] <myakura> ah i'm not a student, but might be
  96. # [02:47] <myakura> depends on if i'll get a job or not
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  98. # [02:47] <myakura> god damn it, i don't wanna go school again at the age of 23..
  99. # [02:48] <myakura> should've studied when i was in high
  100. # [02:48] <myakura> (actually hoped for studying at sfc
  101. # [02:48] * karl wishes the opposite, I would love to go back to school :)
  102. # [02:48] <karl> but maybe because I'm a bit older too ;)
  103. # [02:50] <myakura> i see some japanese names here, are they all SFC?
  104. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> yeah, a couple of them
  105. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> though they are from a different gang than us
  106. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> rival gang
  107. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> we battle for the attention of the SFC cheerleaders
  108. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> so far, they are winning
  109. # [02:51] <karl> ooooh MikeSmith
  110. # [02:51] <myakura> hah
  111. # [02:51] <karl> you missed them yesterday
  112. # [02:51] <karl> when we were discussing with olivier yesterday afternoon
  113. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> but we are working on some strategy, big plans
  114. # [02:51] <karl> they just had finished a show
  115. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> myakura - and you want to leave the university life? think of all you will be missing
  116. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> I think Japanese university student life must be a pretty good life
  117. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> compared to life of university students in Europe and elsewhere
  118. # [02:53] <myakura> well, i dropped out from college in seattle. i'm really afraid of doing that again..
  119. # [02:54] <myakura> i'm not really interested in hanging out so much.
  120. # [02:54] <myakura> that's why i left japan 4yrs ago
  121. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> ah, so you want to actually work, to study, to learn something
  122. # [02:55] <myakura> yeah, if i'm going to school i wanna do so
  123. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can see Japanese university undergraduate study is not the way to go, then :)
  124. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> you need to study somewhere they actually expect you to, well, study
  125. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> or at least to show up for class occasionally
  126. # [02:56] <myakura> yeah
  127. # [02:56] * MikeSmith wonders if Yudai is listening and hopes he doesn't take this too seriously
  128. # [02:57] <myakura> heh
  129. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> some people might say that other advantage of studying at university in US or elswhere is that you get to smoke a lot of mj, which you can't do (safely) in Japan
  130. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> though nobody could accuse me of saying that
  131. # [02:58] <myakura> :p
  132. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> don't quote me on that though. If you do, I will just claim somebody stole my nick
  133. # [03:01] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  134. # [03:02] <myakura> ;)
  135. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> I don't advocate the use of controlled substances.. well at least not in places where they are illegal
  136. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> only in places where they are legal, or where the police "look the other way"
  137. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> anyway, I've polluted the channel with enough nonsense for now
  138. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> I need to shutdown and make the trek out to SFC
  139. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> back on later, with more wisdom to offer
  140. # [03:04] <myakura> later
  141. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  164. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> dbaron - Hi
  165. # [08:09] <dbaron> hi
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  167. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> dbaron - I saw in the logs you mentioned you'll be in Banff for WWW 2007?
  168. # [08:10] <mjs> hi everyone
  169. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> mjs - hi
  170. # [08:11] <dbaron> MikeSmith, Not WWW2007, but probably AC meeting
  171. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> dbaron - ah
  172. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> well, I'll be at that AC meeting as well, so will see you there
  173. # [08:11] <dbaron> it's annoyingly hard to get to -- I could get back from a Boston meeting the evening the meeting ends, but not from Banff (which is a lot closer)
  174. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  175. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> Have you made a reservation for ground transportation already? (from airport to Banff?)
  176. # [08:12] <dbaron> no
  177. # [08:12] <dbaron> haven't made any reservations yet
  178. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> oh
  179. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> you should asap if you can
  180. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> I'm told the hotels and flights and shuttles from the airport are already pretty heavily booked
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  195. # [10:59] <anne> might be better if Chris just said when he has his chair hat on
  196. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  197. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> Maybe he should add a special header to his e-mail messages ... X-Chair-Hat: on|off
  198. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> admirable that he took time to respond to the here's-20-questions-answer-them message
  199. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> anne - you've met Chris?
  200. # [11:03] * MikeSmith has not
  201. # [11:04] <anne> yeah
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  203. # [11:04] <anne> twice
  204. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> would like to meet him ... hope he comes to XTech (he mentioned some time back that he might)
  205. # [11:34] <anne> omg, role= fanboys
  206. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> and a +1 with an exclamation point. nice variation, that
  207. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I think I'm going to write a filter for the list server that replaces all "+1" instances with "Aye, matey"
  208. # [11:40] * anne just deletes those e-mails for now until someone starts giving the idea serious consideration
  209. # [11:40] <anne> MikeSmith, e-mail that to sysreq@w3.org
  210. # [11:40] <anne> (the script)
  211. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> will do
  212. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - question: what are the main things you use your N770 for? checking e-mail? browsing?
  213. # [11:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I use it mainly when I'm going somewhere using public transport
  214. # [11:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: If I'm not familiar with my destination, I use the 770 to access http://reittiopas.fi/ which is the Helsinki area public transport travel planner
  215. # [11:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: If I know where I'm going, I use it as an HTML ebook reader
  216. # [11:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or a Planet Intertwingly client
  217. # [11:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and I use it as an ssh client to connect to screen/irssi
  218. # [12:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't use it for email, because it doesn't like the broken SSL setup of the IMAP server I use
  219. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK. was just curious. Do you also have a mobile phone with a browser running on it?
  220. # [12:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my phone runs Opera Mini, but I stopped using Opera Mini when I started using the big Opera on the 770
  221. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I see
  222. # [12:07] * MikeSmith wishes he had a handset here that Mini could run on ...
  223. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> recent versions of Mini have a feature for intelligent detection and collapsing of navigation menus
  224. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> so you don't have scroll through them
  225. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> smart stuff
  226. # [12:08] <hsivonen> oh. I haven't updated Mini for a while
  227. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> try out the newest. you might be surprised the stuff it does
  228. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> anyway, main handset I use every day has full native Opera 8.6 mobile running on it
  229. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> use it for all kinds of stuff - checking Gmail, reading feeds, news, search
  230. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you don't do much feed reading on your 770?
  231. # [12:12] <hsivonen> I understood the the 770 was for real when I saw timeless read his bugmail in Gmail on the 770
  232. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no feed reading. I read the front page of Planet Intertwingly
  233. # [12:13] <hsivonen> although now I have a flat-rate GPRS plan, so I could start reading feeds
  234. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> ah yes
  235. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> flat-rate makes all the difference. no point in having phat bandwidth if you gotta pay for all the packets
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  237. # [12:33] <anne> nice mjs
  238. # [12:33] * anne thought the same thing about the role= message
  239. # [12:34] <anne> (well, except for the possible performance gain)
  240. # [12:35] <mjs> I'm not sure how much time to spend deflecting silly ideas
  241. # [12:35] <anne> well, that was one reason I didn't reply
  242. # [12:35] <mjs> role, global src and global href seem to be the most persistent
  243. # [12:35] <anne> sometimes I've the feeling that Hixie will reply in the end anyway and that making the same point over and over again isn't really worth it
  244. # [12:36] <hsivonen> I think Hixie has constrained the applicability of the predefined classes too much
  245. # [12:36] <anne> I often hope people would invest a little bit more time in finding out why HTML5 specified it in a certain way instead of thinking directly that it's incorrect
  246. # [12:36] <mjs> based on the "copyright" example I would guess you are right
  247. # [12:36] <anne> hsivonen, yeah, maybe
  248. # [12:36] <anne> but the whole class= thing isn't done yet afaik
  249. # [12:37] <anne> conflicing class values are not yet addressed for instance
  250. # [12:37] <anne> There was also a global cite= attribute proposal btw
  251. # [12:37] <hsivonen> for example, I use "warning" and "error" on <li>
  252. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> anne - would help to have "finding out why HTML5 specified it in a certain way" stuff documented more
  253. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> other than just in the list archive
  254. # [12:38] <hsivonen> as for conflicts, people need to think about this in terms of engineering tolerances instead of having the mathematician hat on
  255. # [12:38] <mjs> some of the predefined class names also seem limited in their applicability
  256. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> (I mean it would help in getting people to understand why)
  257. # [12:39] <mjs> as in, they seem like they are only useful for writing standards documents
  258. # [12:40] <mjs> the set of allowed elements is definitely too limited
  259. # [12:40] <mjs> "copyright" is especially funny in not allowing <small>, since <small> "represents small print (part of a document often describing legal restrictions, such as copyrights or other disadvantages)"
  260. # [12:41] <mjs> it would probably be better to allow the predefined class names on anything as a going-in assumption
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  264. # [12:53] <anne> MikeSmith, design principles cover that in a general way
  265. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> true
  266. # [12:55] <anne> i suppose at some point we could create wiki pages such as "WhyNotRole" etc.
  267. # [12:55] <mjs> seems like a good thing to do for recurring topics
  268. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> aye, maties
  269. # [12:56] * MikeSmith wonders what the plural of "matey" is
  270. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> anne - what's going on with Web APIs WG these days? not much activity there ...
  271. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> all the "networking APIs for server-push, asynchronous two-way client-server communication, peer-to-peer communication, and client-side cross-domain communication" stuff that HTML spec will have a depenency on
  272. # [13:03] <Lachy> MikeSmith: there is some activity going on within the webapi wg
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  274. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy - OK, I just need to pay more attention then
  275. # [13:33] <Lachy> yeah, well, I don't know for sure what other members are up to, I just know that I'm actively working on Selectors API and fairly sure that anne is working on XHR
  276. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> Lachy - I guess I meant not much discussion/activity on the list
  277. # [13:45] <Lachy> yeah, I noticed that
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  279. # [13:51] <anne> Activity on the list is no indication of progress though... Just see the HTML WG :)
  280. # [13:51] <anne> Then again, Web API is indeed not very active
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  294. # [16:01] <hasather> Jame Clark blogs: http://blog.jclark.com/
  295. # [16:08] <hsivonen> hasather: interesting. looks like his hiatus is over then
  296. # [16:08] <hasather> yea, I hope so
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  299. # [16:25] * anne wonders why mandating a baseline format is out of scope
  300. # [16:26] <hsivonen> I don't see an incubator helping if MS and Apple believe that shipping Theora is not in their interest
  301. # [16:27] <anne> If the HTML WG is doing a <video> element it should not just design the element and its API
  302. # [16:50] * Joins: Philip (excors@80.177.163.133)
  303. # [17:21] <gsnedders> anyone want to try and summarise what's been going on since Mon?
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  305. # [17:40] <anne> Microsoft joined, apart from that not much
  306. # [17:40] <anne> as far as the HTML WG is concerned, anyway
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  309. # [17:51] <gsnedders> skimming through emails, we seem to have got further in a codec war :\
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  312. # [19:13] <anne> well, afaict the co-chairs consider it to be out of scope
  313. # [19:14] <anne> I suppose that can be called progress
  314. # [19:14] <anne> given that WHATWG does intend to solve this particular problem there's already a gap
  315. # [19:28] <Dashiva> Tongue-in-cheek, I can't see why MS can't afford a few submarine patents considering all the money they throw away on less worthy cases :)
  316. # [19:35] <Philip> Independent of the money, it's no good implementing a standard interoperable codec and then being forced to remove it later because of submarine patents (if the patent-holder won't license it reasonably, like with Eolas)
  317. # [19:36] <anne> Yeah, won't help anyone
  318. # [19:37] <anne> It would actually be pretty harmful if it happened to content creators, users and implementors
  319. # [19:37] <anne> I suppose spec writers are least affected here
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  322. # [20:04] <anne> gavin, seems cwilso was against noversioning after all
  323. # [20:09] <gavin_> I haven't been keeping up with mail
  324. # [20:09] <anne> fair enough
  325. # [20:09] <gavin_> (statuatory holiday here, I shouldn't be working!)
  326. # [20:09] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0305.html
  327. # [20:09] <anne> same here
  328. # [20:10] <anne> which reminds me, got to go
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  330. # [20:13] <tylerr> Hey there Zeros.
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  332. # [20:14] <Zeros> hey tylerr
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  336. # [21:34] <Philip> mjs: "I think the boat has sailed on making incompatible changes to <canvas>" - I think that's not entirely true for all the features, since some are currently implemented incompatibly between all the browsers, so all but one will have to make incompatible changes anyway, and the spec can choose which one to consider correct
  337. # [21:35] <mjs> Philip: feel free to correct me on-list, but I meant incompatible changes to the fundamental features
  338. # [21:35] <mjs> for example, if someone proposed that immediate-mode drawing should be handled solely by passing an SVG markup string, that would be too much breakage to contemplate
  339. # [21:38] <Hixie> all this talk about codecs -- on both the whatwg and public-html lists -- is such a waste of time
  340. # [21:38] <Hixie> the whatwg spec already says the only possible thing you can say here given the constraints involved
  341. # [21:39] <Hixie> the concept that it might be "out of scope" is also quite funny -- the whatwg has already addressed this problem as much as it can be addressed, but we (the htmlwg) don't want to make any decisions? what?
  342. # [21:40] <Philip> mjs: Okay, that sounds fine - I think the incompatible changes would just be bug fixes, rather than reinventions (particularly when they're simply new syntax for minimal benefit)
  343. # [21:40] <Philip> (I'm not on-list, since I'm neither invited nor an expert - I'm just hanging around on IRC because it's interesting and I don't have much else to do ;-) )
  344. # [21:41] <mjs> I don't think the SHOULD requirement is particularly helpful but I don't think it's particularly harmful either
  345. # [21:41] <mjs> Philip: you can get yourself invited fairly trivially (unless your employer is a W3C Member)
  346. # [21:42] <Hixie> mjs: exactly
  347. # [21:42] <Philip> But I still wouldn't be an expert :-)
  348. # [21:43] <Philip> and I'll probably get distracted and move onto other things soon, so it wouldn't be very useful
  349. # [21:44] <Hixie> trust me, most of the people on this group are not experts
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  351. # [21:46] <Philip> I do get that impression at times, but it seems better not to dilute the pool further
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  358. # [22:10] <mjs> dbaron: are you around?
  359. # [22:21] <dbaron> mjs, in a meeting right now
  360. # [22:21] <tylerr> Philip: I'm new to much of this, and very new to spec writing and the whole idea of mailing lists (never used one before this), but I believe this is a great opportunity to learn the process of shaping the web. I wouldn't discredit yourself so soon, because I'm guessing a vast majority of people (like what Hixie mentioned) are new to this.
  361. # [22:22] <dbaron> mjs, so around, but high-latency
  362. # [22:22] <tylerr> Observe, learn, contribute. I'm certainly not jumping into heated discussions and offing my advice and insight on matters that I have no clue about. :-)
  363. # [22:24] <Hixie> many are!
  364. # [22:24] <Hixie> :-)
  365. # [22:26] <tylerr> Haha yeah, this is true Hixie. My HTMLWG folder is a testament to that. ;-)
  366. # [22:26] <mjs> email clients should have a clue breathalyzer interlock on the send button
  367. # [22:26] <tylerr> "Please complete this simple test before sending your response."
  368. # [22:30] <Dashiva> "Is your email about abbr vs acronym?"
  369. # [22:31] <tylerr> "If so, please delete your email account."
  370. # [22:31] <kingryan> "what do you use to produce email? (a) vim (b) emacs (c) frontpage (d) what's html?"
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  372. # [23:07] <tylerr> kingryan: :-)
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  382. # Session Close: Sat Apr 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)