/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:03] <Dashiva> The only way I see out of it is if MS defines "really, really standards mode" to be the latest standard at any time, so people who want to use it are responsible for updating, no backwards compatability promised at all
  4. # [00:03] <Dashiva> And that goes sort of against their policy as I understand it
  5. # [00:07] <Philip> That doesn't seem like a workable definition - people will use "really, really standards mode" because they hear that's the best mode to use, and then the site's designers will finish and move onto other things, and then IE (and other browsers) can't afford to ever break those sites because nobody is going to fix them despite using really, really standards mode
  6. # [00:10] <Philip> (But that's only a problem if future updates (bug fixes or new versions of the spec) will break those sites, which doesn't seem necessary if the spec can be designed to be compatible with HTML-as-interpreted-by-authors)
  7. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Well, it's either a tag (or absense thereof) for "latest standard", or you're stuck in versioning hell with one tag for every significant version
  8. # [00:14] <Dashiva> In the absense of perfect UAs, the former tends to break sites due to sites relying on bugs
  9. # [00:14] <hsivonen> if MS insists on really really standards mode, they should use <!DOCTYPE html> or application/xhtml+xml to activate it
  10. # [00:15] <hsivonen> they can reassess the need for versioning and they policy when HTML6 is relevant
  11. # [00:15] <hsivonen> and their policy
  12. # [00:16] <Philip> If a significant number of sites rely on bugs, it seems likely that the other browsers will have reverse-engineered and implemented those bugs; so the new spec can just specify them, and they'll be features instead of bugs, and everyone will be happy (except people who want elegant specs)
  13. # [00:17] <Dashiva> New bugs will appear
  14. # [00:18] <Philip> If the bugs are new, no sites will rely on them, so you can just fix them in the next browser release
  15. # [00:18] <Philip> though I suppose that breaks if it takes too long between browser releases
  16. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Yep
  17. # [00:19] <Philip> But with extensive test suites for any new feature, there won't be any bugs, so it won't matter ;-)
  18. # [00:19] <Dashiva> n/t
  19. # [00:21] <Philip> Although... If (for example) IE7 introduced a new bug, sites couldn't rely on it while IE6 is still reasonably popular, which I assume will be at least a year or so, which might give enough time to fix it in IE8
  20. # [00:21] <Dashiva> They would rely on it using conditional comments
  21. # [00:22] <Dashiva> It's already being done to separate IE6 bugs from IE7
  22. # [00:23] <Philip> Oh, okay, that would be a problem
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  37. # [04:27] <mjs> re earlier discussion: a lot of sites depending on IE bugs are doing so conditionally via UA checks or IE-targetted CSS hacks
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  60. # [13:55] * Lachy doesn't understand the point of Doug Jones' email
  61. # [13:56] <Lachy> why do we need to republish definitions like that?
  62. # [13:57] <Lachy> Such a thing may be useful as an appendix to a tutorial, where it defines the terms within it, but not necessary as a stand-alone document
  63. # [14:14] <anne> I believe this is the second time he's proposing this...
  64. # [14:14] <Lachy> I don't remember the first time
  65. # [14:15] <anne> Both in some e-mail and here on IRC
  66. # [14:15] <Lachy> ah, I found his first mail
  67. # [14:15] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0672
  68. # [14:16] <Lachy> it must have been one of those I didn't bother reading
  69. # [14:16] <anne> I think it's a silly idea
  70. # [14:17] <anne> The specification already defines all the terms that are used differently from day to day usage
  71. # [14:17] <anne> No need to define things like "structure"
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  73. # [14:17] <anne> Or "content", even
  74. # [14:19] <Lachy> oh, but we really need to have "bold" and "italic" defined ;-)
  75. # [14:19] <anne> for <b> and <i> their meaning is defined
  76. # [14:19] <Lachy> yeah, but I mean in his glossary
  77. # [14:20] <anne> most useful discussion seems to be on whatwg@whatwg.org
  78. # [14:21] <Lachy> yeah, but I haven't been keeping up with that this week
  79. # [14:21] <anne> even today someone joined this group
  80. # [14:22] <Lachy> who?
  81. # [14:22] <anne> http://www.w3.org/mid/E1HaVoP-00075O-KH@wiggum.w3.org
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  85. # [14:39] <hsivonen> anne: do you subscribe to www-archive?
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  89. # [14:48] <anne> nope
  90. # [14:48] <anne> you can't
  91. # [14:50] <anne> (that's w3c-archive btw)
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The end :)