/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> "really standards mode" is a misnomer. "IE-as-of-2008" is what it really is.
  4. # [00:00] <Dashiva> Well, they could make it as simple as saying "If you choose really standards mode, you are responsible for keeping up with bugfixes. If not, use just standards mode."
  5. # [00:00] <Zeros> Of course IE8 has to be able to deal with IE7 content and IE6 content
  6. # [00:00] <mjs> being used for more than just public web content gives you issues
  7. # [00:00] <mjs> Zeros: I think it would be workable for <!DOCTYPE HTML> to activate really standards mode
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's exactly what standards more was before
  9. # [00:01] <mjs> but the question is, will that too become just another quirks mode someday?
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> yes
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> they've said so
  12. # [00:01] <Zeros> mjs, With IE? Of course. Trident is mess.
  13. # [00:01] * Hixie is not planning for the DOCTYPE of HTML to ever change again
  14. # [00:01] <Zeros> IE7 added more layout bugs and showed more of the broken parts in the CSS implementation
  15. # [00:02] <h3h> yeah, I don't like the "really " x N + "standards mode" idea
  16. # [00:03] <h3h> seems fundamentally broken
  17. # [00:03] <Hixie> it's the Word model
  18. # [00:03] <Zeros> h3h, The problem is that IE caters to many more users than everyone else and has a much slower adoption rate
  19. # [00:03] <hober> yes, it seems like it gets combinatorically worse over time -- don't we want things to get better over time?
  20. # [00:03] <Zeros> Firefox has a small user base, they roll out Firefox 2 and it can be adopted in a couple months
  21. # [00:03] <Hixie> and it's worked really well for Word, in keeping the market closed.
  22. # [00:03] <Hixie> but that's not their intent, i'm sure.
  23. # [00:04] <h3h> Zeros: that would be a problem if the proposed solution were throwing IE out the window and starting afresh
  24. # [00:04] <h3h> but it most decidedly is not
  25. # [00:04] <Zeros> h3h, Any broken pages. IE7 changed a lot, and broke a lot of pages
  26. # [00:04] <Zeros> h3h, The more they fix the more pages they break
  27. # [00:04] <Dashiva> I'm sure IE7 would have somewhat higher adoption rate if it was actually available to every windows user
  28. # [00:04] <h3h> that's the problem
  29. # [00:04] <h3h> Chris and you seem to think that the solution is to "fix" the way IE does things
  30. # [00:04] <Zeros> Dashiva, heh. You think?
  31. # [00:04] <h3h> but, as I understand it, that's not correct
  32. # [00:05] <h3h> the proposed solution is to swallow what IE does and use that as a baseline
  33. # [00:05] <h3h> and specify new things in as best a way as possible
  34. # [00:05] <Zeros> I hope not
  35. # [00:05] <Zeros> IE has a million parser and CSS bugs
  36. # [00:05] <h3h> has nothing to do with CSS
  37. # [00:05] <Zeros> Trident lets you have cyclical DOM nodes too
  38. # [00:05] <h3h> that's already been shown to be inconsequential
  39. # [00:05] <Zeros> h3h, Sure it is. They want a way to tell "New" documents from old ones and decide behavior
  40. # [00:06] <hsivonen> suppressTopSpacingWP (Emulate WordPerfect 5.x Line Spacing)
  41. # [00:06] <h3h> (Gecko does the same in a tree)
  42. # [00:06] <Zeros> hsivonen, a yes, the Office XML, only implementable by MS...
  43. # [00:06] <Zeros> Of course it'll be 'standardized' and we'll get to endure it too
  44. # [00:07] <h3h> too much cynicism and bitterness around MS
  45. # [00:07] <h3h> Chris seems to be on the defensive before an argument even gets underway
  46. # [00:07] <Zeros> h3h, Its impossible for anyone to be able to implement the Office XML without all the Word specifications
  47. # [00:07] <h3h> I'm not talking about that
  48. # [00:08] <h3h> I'm talking about discussions on public-html involving Microsoft
  49. # [00:08] <h3h> everyone seems to assume that Microsoft is being attacked
  50. # [00:08] <Zeros> I know. He's saying let HTML have a way for IE to know what it should be doing
  51. # [00:08] <Zeros> and everyone else is saying "let IE just break, we want to use this cool new doctype!"
  52. # [00:08] <h3h> eh no.
  53. # [00:08] <Philip> It wouldn't be necessary to specify *all* the bugs in IE - only those that are relied on by real pages, which doesn't include e.g. bugs that crash IE. (But does anyone know how many of those relied-upon bugs there are?)
  54. # [00:08] <h3h> that's the problem right there
  55. # [00:09] <h3h> you are understanding it exactly as Chris seems to be
  56. # [00:09] <h3h> and that's not how Hixie explained it, nor how I understand it
  57. # [00:09] <Philip> (Presumably other browser vendors have experience of the IE bugs that people actually care about reproducing)
  58. # [00:09] <h3h> Philip: exactly
  59. # [00:09] <Zeros> h3h, I'm understanding it as hixie presents it. He wants all new browsers to implement the entire HTML spec and all legacy behavior, and then all new versions of HTML from here on to forever to be backwards compatible 100%
  60. # [00:10] <Zeros> And Chris is saying that IE is broken, and as they fix it they need a way to give the fixed behavior to other people on new pages that use new features
  61. # [00:10] <h3h> the "all legacy behavior" in that statement contradicts the "'let IE break'" in the previous statement
  62. # [00:10] <Hixie> i'm saying IE isn't broken.
  63. # [00:10] <Hixie> but that the spec is broken.
  64. # [00:10] <h3h> yep
  65. # [00:10] <Zeros> Hixie, So you think that IE's DOM and CSS behavior is correct?
  66. # [00:11] <Hixie> (well, i'm actually saying they're both broken, but that's too subtle for this discussion)
  67. # [00:11] <gavin_> depends o what your definition of "correct" is :)
  68. # [00:11] <Hixie> Zeros: CSS isn't part of this discussion.
  69. # [00:11] <Hixie> Zeros: i think that we can make the spec much closer to IE's DOM behaviour.
  70. # [00:11] <h3h> he's saying what IE does, for 80%+ of the parsing/HTML cases, will be the new Correct
  71. # [00:11] <gavin_> if Correct is "renders the web", then yes, it is
  72. # [00:11] <Zeros> Hixie, Sure it is. IE applies different behavior for CSS to different rendering modes
  73. # [00:11] <Hixie> but the thing is
  74. # [00:11] <Hixie> that's all irrelevant
  75. # [00:11] <Hixie> it doesn't matter WHAT we want to do
  76. # [00:12] <Hixie> versioning is still a terrible idea
  77. # [00:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm interested, though, if Hixie-as-of-2007 would make the Almost Standards Model behavior the official behavior of CSS ;-)
  78. # [00:12] <Hixie> it's anti-competitive, as it makes it nigh-on-impossible to enter the market.
  79. # [00:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: i've given up on CSS.
  80. # [00:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: the working group is too fucked up.
  81. # [00:12] <h3h> well we'll see with Chris's essay, but somehow I still think he's failing to understand the proposed solution as intended
  82. # [00:13] <Zeros> IE's DOM is fundamentally broken in a lot of places. I don't see how making everyone emulating it solves anything
  83. # [00:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. I thought it was one of the groups in the W3C that did useful work
  84. # [00:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: it was.
  85. # [00:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: but it's gotten ridiculous in the past year or two.
  86. # [00:13] <Zeros> Should you be able to select comment nodes with CSS in Firefox? Or have elements who's parentnode is a child node too?
  87. # [00:14] <Hixie> Zeros: i'm only suggesting we adopet IEisms where they are required for compatibility with legacy content.
  88. # [00:14] <Dashiva> I sort of gave up on CSS when they started doing modules
  89. # [00:14] <Dashiva> I lost control of which features where in which module at which stage
  90. # [00:14] <Hixie> Dashiva: CSS has stopped doing modules, fwiw. :-)
  91. # [00:14] <h3h> heh. really?
  92. # [00:15] * anne missed that announcement; being a member of the WG even!
  93. # [00:15] <Hixie> well, not really, but they're no longer called modules with levels, they're just independent specs with versions.
  94. # [00:15] <Dashiva> Oh, that -really- helps
  95. # [00:15] <h3h> makes more sense
  96. # [00:15] <Zeros> Hixie, ah. I'd do that with a grain of salt. If there are IE only pages using it and HTML5 can do it better then specify it better and let IE fix their implementation.
  97. # [00:16] <Hixie> given the number of hours it took to the group to agree to that, i assume it's important.
  98. # [00:16] <Hixie> but i don't really know
  99. # [00:16] <h3h> Zeros: that's exactly the attitude that Chris Wilson is responding to
  100. # [00:16] <Zeros> Otherwise why bother with stuff like Canvas since there's already IE specific features for doing that like VML everyone could implement.
  101. # [00:16] <h3h> and the one that Microsoft will not bend to
  102. # [00:16] <h3h> understandably so
  103. # [00:16] <h3h> and precisely *not* what Hixie has proposed
  104. # [00:17] <Hixie> well, we'll see when chris sends his next versioning mail i guess
  105. # [00:17] <Zeros> h3h, Well Firefox could just reverse engineer all the bad IE behavior and fix this whole argument
  106. # [00:17] <Dashiva> No
  107. # [00:17] <Hixie> h3h: i'm not suggesting we take all of IE's things either.
  108. # [00:17] <Dashiva> IE would invent new behavior on the way, it would be an eternal game of catchup
  109. # [00:17] <Hixie> h3h: it's a compromise on a case-by-case basis
  110. # [00:17] <h3h> Hixie: I know, hence the "exactly" to Philip above
  111. # [00:17] <Zeros> h3h, Chris is saying that as they fix bugs they need a way to control the rendering mode.
  112. # [00:17] <Hixie> anyway
  113. # [00:17] * Hixie goes back to actually working on HTML5 instead of talking about it
  114. # [00:17] <Dashiva> radical
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  116. # [00:18] <Dashiva> What's a guy like you doing in w3c? :)
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  136. # [02:20] <Lachy> IMO, the reason the IE team would feel burned by their IE7 experience is because they made some bad choices. e.g. They removed the * html filter, but didn't fix all the major bugs and remove the need for the patches that made use of it.
  137. # [02:21] <mjs> and there are the past bad choices of leaving so many bad rendering bugs in place for so long
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  139. # [02:22] <Lachy> yeah, that too, but my point is that you can't do a half-arsed job and then complain when it didn't turn out so great
  140. # [02:24] <Hixie> they're just going to make yet another bad choice, that's all
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  142. # [02:28] <mjs> unfortunately it sounds like they may be planning future choices that could seriously hurt interoperability and the standards process
  143. # [02:28] <mjs> though I sincerely hope I am misunderstanding
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  145. # [02:33] <Lachy> I think Chris is only worried about the interoperability of future pages, not existing pages for which he seems to be assuming widely rely on IE7 exactly as-is, and that is just a false assumption.
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  148. # [02:45] <mjs> if anything they would rely on IE6 exactly as is
  149. # [02:45] <mjs> so I'm not sure why anyone would call for IE7 as a baseline if absolute compatibility with IE-specific sites is their goal
  150. # [02:46] <Lachy> probably because IE7 has already shipped and they would be criticised even more if they went backwards
  151. # [02:47] <mjs> point is, there's probably relatively few sites that rely on IE*7* exactly as-is
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  168. # [04:40] <marcos> mjs, awesome!!!!
  169. # [04:44] * mjs is wondering what the reaction will be
  170. # [04:49] <Lachy> mjs: +1 :-)
  171. # [04:50] <mjs> I wouldn't mind if anyone had something useful to say on the list in support
  172. # [04:51] <Lachy> I don't, but I think there will be a lot of +1s and -1s sent in response. Perhaps we should set up a proper poll instead, if we want it determined by consensus
  173. # [04:56] <Hixie> let's leave that up to the chairs...
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  182. # [05:37] <Hixie> anyone know when the xhtml2wg is going to switch to working in the public as per their charter?
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  184. # [05:39] <sbuluf> hixie, didn't they work publiclly all along? ( I don't follow it myself)
  185. # [05:39] <Hixie> no
  186. # [05:39] <sbuluf> were they working members only?
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  188. # [05:39] <Hixie> yes
  189. # [05:39] <Hixie> still are
  190. # [05:39] <sbuluf> wow. thanks.
  191. # [05:39] <Hixie> as in, you can't join the group
  192. # [05:40] <Hixie> and their proceedings were private
  193. # [05:40] <Hixie> but they're supposed to go to public proceedings (though still closed membership)
  194. # [05:40] <Lachy> sbuluf: the XHTML2 WG have the appearance of a public group to the untrained eye because of the www-html and www-html-editor mailing lists, but in reality they're very secretive
  195. # [05:40] <Lachy> Hixie: can't anyone join the XHTML2WG like the HTMLWG?
  196. # [05:40] <Hixie> not as far as i know
  197. # [05:40] <Hixie> can they?
  198. # [05:41] <Lachy> well, I thought that was the idea of them going public
  199. # [05:41] <sbuluf> lachy, i'm aware there are a *ton* of political games being played. all over. in this particular case, however, i was not aware
  200. # [06:06] <karl> sbuluf: everything is political, as soon as you start to talk about community, social context, etc. technology doesn't exist outside of its social context.
  201. # [06:07] <Hixie> to correct my earlier comment, lachy pointed out that actually anyone can indeed join the xhtml2 wg
  202. # [06:07] <Hixie> i'm still at a loss for answers to my earlier question though (when will they become public)
  203. # [06:08] <sbuluf> karl, pretty correct, right.
  204. # [06:08] <karl> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter the charter has still a TBA.
  205. # [06:09] <Hixie> yeah but w3.org/MarkUp says the charter took effect
  206. # [06:09] <Hixie> so i'm confused
  207. # [06:09] <karl> things take time.
  208. # [06:13] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/
  209. # [06:26] <Hixie> certainly at the w3c they do :-|
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  222. # [08:11] <marcos> mjs, I imagine the proposal will have to be reviewed by 1000+ lawyers before anything can happen?
  223. # [08:13] <mjs> marcos: I would hope not
  224. # [08:14] <Lachy> marcos, there are only 304 members in the HTML WG. Unless each one has 3.3 lawyers each, that's not going to happen
  225. # [08:15] <marcos> However, given all the IPR issues around the whatwg spec, would it not be good to get some of Apple's lawyers to write the handing over thing properly?... kinda like they did for <canvas>
  226. # [08:16] <mjs> I don't think there are IPR issues around the whatwg spec, or at least none relative to specifying the exact same feature set in the HTML WG from scratch
  227. # [08:18] <marcos> I hope not. Hopefully this will happen quickly.
  228. # [08:18] * marcos stops pretending to know anything about legal stuff...
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  253. # [11:55] <mjs> no -1's yet
  254. # [11:55] <mjs> (unless you count Henrik)
  255. # [11:56] <myakura> another +1's here :)
  256. # [11:59] <Hixie> what is it with people calling me Hickson in this group
  257. # [12:00] <Hixie> "Ian" or "Hixie" is fine...
  258. # [12:01] <mjs> '"Ian" or "Hixie" is fine...' (Hickson)
  259. # [12:01] <Hixie> hah
  260. # [12:03] <mjs> after I looked up what <blackface> is, I think Henrik's email was not intended in the spirit of sincerity
  261. # [12:03] <gsnedders> how many people are called by just their surname>
  262. # [12:03] <gsnedders> *?
  263. # [12:03] <gsnedders> any common, Hickson? :P
  264. # [12:03] * gsnedders gives up typing
  265. # [12:04] <mjs> it's pretty much never polite to refer to someone that way, unless it is their nickname or you are citing their research paper in yours
  266. # [12:04] <mjs> at least in English
  267. # [12:04] <mjs> "Ian" or "Mr. Hickson" would be polite forms of address, though the latter would be overly formal
  268. # [12:05] <mjs> I'm waiting for Microsoft and the W3C to chime in on the proposal because I think pretty everyone else's opinion is more or less known
  269. # [12:06] <gsnedders> I can think of plenty further polite forms of address (such as Ian Hickson)
  270. # [12:08] <mjs> yeah, but just "Hickson" does not come off as very nice
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  272. # [12:16] <Lachy> heh, I got called Hunt
  273. # [12:16] <Lachy> I don't have a problem with it, I've been called much worse things before. It's just not normal
  274. # [12:16] <anne> mjs, what's <blackface>?
  275. # [12:17] * olivier sees a tempest in a teapot
  276. # [12:17] <olivier> the guy is just quoting who wrote what
  277. # [12:17] <olivier> relax, guys :)
  278. # [12:19] <Lachy> I'm not sure if this is what <blackface> was referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface but if it is, I have no idea what that has to do with HTML
  279. # [12:23] <mjs> Lachy: I think he meant this: http://webdesign.about.com/od/htmltags/p/bltags_blackfac.htm
  280. # [12:23] <mjs> it's extremely obscure, and apparently only works in MSNTV's XHTML variant
  281. # [12:23] <mjs> it's obviously not something that would actually be needed for web compatibility, and I assume the point was raised facetiously
  282. # [12:24] <mjs> (<marquee> should probably be added, <blink> is quite dubious, that one is clearly not a serious suggestion)
  283. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> mjs - as far as W3C chiming in, Dan Connolly is out sick and offline and I don't know for sure when he'll be back
  284. # [12:25] <Lachy> <blink> isn't strictly necessary for compat since IE doesn't support it, though it's included in the parsing and browsers can frreely support it if they want.
  285. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> but hopefully this week
  286. # [12:25] <Lachy> marquee is needed
  287. # [12:26] <mjs> Lachy: that's pretty much what I think, but I didn't want to respond to his actual points since the message seemed out of left field
  288. # [12:27] <Lachy> Stachowiak, agreed :-)
  289. # [12:28] <mjs> I'm glad that Hunt agrees
  290. # [12:28] <Lachy> oops, I meant +1
  291. # [12:37] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
  292. # [12:41] <sbuluf> he is consistently using family names. it is not unpolite in most countries. and he does it to fast wuote, like in papers.
  293. # [12:42] <sbuluf> imho, is a cogent post, all in all. he wants to clarify what the plan is.
  294. # [12:44] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  295. # [12:46] <anne> supporting <blink> is trivial
  296. # [12:46] <anne> it should just be bound to supporting text-decoration:blink and that's optional...
  297. # [12:48] <anne> it would be better if Dvergsdal was clear on what he wanted...
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  299. # [12:51] <mjs> I think his post is trying to be a parody of a point of view he disagrees with
  300. # [12:51] <mjs> I would prefer he make his point in plain language if so
  301. # [12:51] <mjs> if not, I am just confused, because no one has proposed the specific things he listed
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  303. # [12:52] <mjs> MikeSmith: (belatedly) I hope he gets well soon
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  313. # [13:50] <vy> anne: You remember my question about which ml I should be subscribed to send our proposals to W3C?
  314. # [13:51] <anne> yes
  315. # [13:51] <vy> anne: Would you mind if I propose it with your assistance?
  316. # [13:52] <vy> Let me tell you about the idea, if you like it I'll be very appreciated if you discuss further details of it in the related W3C ml, if you don't, that's ok.
  317. # [13:53] <anne> sure
  318. # [13:57] <vy> Is it ok if I send a short explanation of the proposal to anne...@gmail.com address?
  319. # [14:00] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
  320. # [14:02] <anne> don't you have a pointer?
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  322. # [14:03] <vy> Umm... Not yet. Do you want me to publish one on my website?
  323. # [14:03] <anne> yeah, or you could e-mail it to www-archive@w3.org
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  326. # [14:07] <vy> anne: http://www.students.itu.edu.tr/~yazicivo/w3-proposal.txt
  327. # [14:10] <anne> doesn't XSLT address that in a way?
  328. # [14:10] <anne> as in, declarative templating
  329. # [14:11] <vy> But what I try to address is a standard way of exporting server side variables into HTML pages. AFAIK, XSLT doesn't address this.
  330. # [14:11] <vy> If it would, there won't be hundred of different syntaxes doing same thing without even using XSLT.
  331. # [14:12] <anne> well, people always like to do their own thing
  332. # [14:12] <anne> which should be ok
  333. # [14:12] <vy> But think HTML. What if I would be needed to write HTML in a different syntax in every new web framework I use?
  334. # [14:14] <anne> I don't really think you can avoid that
  335. # [14:15] <beowulf> vy: i think that really stems up from the language the framework is in, and not down from the w3c html spec
  336. # [14:15] <vy> There have been similar standardization workarounds by Zope in the past, let me find those pages.
  337. # [14:15] <anne> oh yeah, it's certainly out of scope for the HTML WG
  338. # [14:19] <vy> beowulf: That templating syntax will just be a recommendation from W3C, nobody will be required to adopt it. And I think it's still related with XHTML/HTML side, not totally related with the language the framework is in.
  339. # [14:20] * Joins: loic (loic@90.27.90.144)
  340. # [14:20] <vy> You writing an HTML page, using different templating syntax of django and smarty, and both produces same HTML output. The difference is 10-20 lines of templating code. Not even differs in the HTML content they hold.
  341. # [14:21] <vy> Anyway... If you think it is not suitable for W3C...
  342. # [14:21] <vy> Thanks for you help.
  343. # [14:22] * Quits: vy (user@88.234.8.200) (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 stable pre-release (IRC client for Emacs))
  344. # [14:22] <beowulf> vy: write a templating language spec
  345. # [14:23] <beowulf> and then publish it, and then look for submarines, and then argue over it for years, and then...
  346. # [14:23] <krijnhoetmer> (He's gone)
  347. # [14:23] <beowulf> yeah, i say that :)
  348. # [14:23] * krijnhoetmer is now known as krijnh
  349. # [14:23] <beowulf> s/say/saw
  350. # [14:25] <krijnh> anne: you said something about twitter?
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  354. # [15:07] <anne> krijnh, annevk
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  356. # [15:18] <myakura> there's already a templating language http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/20040830/HTMLoverlays.html
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  368. # [16:19] <krijnh> anne: annevk ?
  369. # [16:20] <krijnh> <annevk> krijnh, could modify his bot so we could do "twitter: blah" and it would appear in some #whatwg twitter
  370. # [16:21] <anne> oh, that one
  371. # [16:22] <anne> there's twitter.com/whatwg now
  372. # [16:22] <anne> and whatwg.org seems to have some way of submitting data to it
  373. # [16:22] <krijnh> Ah
  374. # [16:23] <krijnh> "What's the use case?"
  375. # [16:23] <krijnh> ;)
  376. # [16:24] <anne> keeping you busy?
  377. # [16:24] <krijnh> I am already
  378. # [16:24] <krijnh> But heck
  379. # [16:24] <krijnh> Never used twitter though
  380. # [16:25] <krijnh> And my 'bot' isn't really a bot
  381. # [16:27] <anne> now there's an interface on whatwg.org I suppose it isn't really needed anymore
  382. # [16:28] <krijnh> Okay
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  434. # [22:42] <hsivonen> Did I misread Chris Wilson's reply to me or is he really saying that the WG should publish a delta spec?
  435. # [22:43] <anne> you misread
  436. # [22:43] <mjs> wow, finally an outright disagree
  437. # [22:43] <anne> he wants a delta guide
  438. # [22:44] <anne> as I read it he talks about publishing WHATWG HTML5
  439. # [22:44] <hsivonen> mjs: who is disagreeing?
  440. # [22:45] <mjs> hsivonen: deres@o2.pl
  441. # [22:45] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.139.123.225) (Quit: Don't touch /dev/null…)
  442. # [22:46] <anne> offlist?
  443. # [22:47] <mjs> it seems to be on the list...
  444. # [22:47] <mjs> sent at 1:25 PM
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  446. # [22:47] <Hixie> i love how _not_ replying to the questionaires puts your e-mail up for harvesting: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/results
  447. # [22:48] <Hixie> (only hit on google for "deres@o2.pl")
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  449. # [22:48] <Hixie> can't find the mail you spoke about though
  450. # [22:49] <anne> me neither
  451. # [22:49] <voluminous> Well crap Hixie, that's not very smart.
  452. # [22:49] <Hixie> anyway, shower now
  453. # [22:49] <Hixie> bbl
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  456. # [22:51] <anne> what's it with people and introducing namespaces into HTML
  457. # [22:51] <anne> I should say, XML namespaces
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  459. # [22:52] <voluminous> Hmm... I'm guessing that's why my e-mail has jumped in spam mail from about 5/day to 50/day... **frowns**
  460. # [22:54] <hsivonen> hmm. I can't seem to be able to find a non-snide way of suggesting that the WG participants should bother to read the WHATWG specs.
  461. # [22:54] <hsivonen> I guess I'll sleep on it
  462. # [22:55] <voluminous> Hah! Auto-redirects? ;-)
  463. # [22:56] <hsivonen> mjs: The message you are referring to isn't in the list archive
  464. # [22:56] <anne> maybe forward it to www-archive@w3.org ?
  465. # [22:58] <voluminous> anne: Who do you think we should send an e-mail to about getting those e-mails off the publicly viewable page? I've noticed a large jump in my spam and that seems to be why.
  466. # [22:58] <voluminous> And it's the only instance on the internet where my e-mail address appears via a search engine.
  467. # [22:59] <hsivonen> I've given up on hiding my email address
  468. # [22:59] <hsivonen> hiding it interferes too much with useful work
  469. # [22:59] <anne> voluminous, dunno
  470. # [22:59] <anne> sysreq@w3.org maybe
  471. # [23:00] <voluminous> Sure hsivonen, but this is my personal one that I use for all my mailing lists and private communication and such. I have my work one for business and the like that I don't mind being public.
  472. # [23:00] <voluminous> I suppose I should have used my work address for the WG. :-\
  473. # [23:00] <voluminous> Thanks anne.
  474. # [23:02] <mjs> Hixie, hsivonen: I may have received it just due to personal email, but I'm not sure how he would have received the list email if his mail doesn't go through
  475. # [23:03] <anne> did he cc public-html ?
  476. # [23:03] <anne> it doesn't really matter how he got the e-mail...
  477. # [23:04] <anne> (he could have downloaded the mboxes for instance)
  478. # [23:05] <hsivonen> anne: Isn't mbox download a Member-only feature? or did Karl reconfigure it or something?
  479. # [23:05] <anne> someone try: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/mboxes/
  480. # [23:06] <gavin_> asks for my password
  481. # [23:06] <anne> prolly member only then
  482. # [23:09] <anne> Henri is amusing
  483. # [23:10] <Hixie> uri?
  484. # [23:10] <anne> see inbox
  485. # [23:11] <gavin_> you mean Henrik?
  486. # [23:11] <anne> i wonder when he'll state his opinion instead of simply asking questions
  487. # [23:11] <anne> oops
  488. # [23:11] <anne> yes
  489. # [23:11] <mjs> anne: he might not have agreed to the w3c archive agreement yet
  490. # [23:12] <anne> makes sense
  491. # [23:13] <mjs> should I forward his message to www-archive, or wait for it to go through?
  492. # [23:13] <Hixie> he cc'ed the list?
  493. # [23:14] <Hixie> if you're replying, just reply, if you're not, then just ignore it
  494. # [23:14] <Hixie> imho
  495. # [23:15] * anne wonders how many other people have the problem with posting to the list
  496. # [23:15] <anne> mjs, I can wait
  497. # [23:15] <Hixie> does this henrik guy know about the wiki page?
  498. # [23:16] <anne> i pointed it out but he omitted it in his reply i think...
  499. # [23:16] <anne> it followed after the :
  500. # [23:17] <anne> he didn't even say whether or not he found that page useful
  501. # [23:17] <Hixie> i really don't understand what he's asking
  502. # [23:17] <anne> then again, in some other e-mail he suggested that every change we make needs to have some stated rationale etc.
  503. # [23:17] <Hixie> so i guess i'll leave it to dan and chris
  504. # [23:17] <anne> like we're making changes to HTML4...
  505. # [23:17] <Hixie> right. to work. bbl
  506. # [23:20] <voluminous> Later Hixie.
  507. # [23:32] <anne> mjs, added input stuff http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4#Applications
  508. # [23:33] <anne> someone else will have to do the rest though
  509. # [23:33] * anne doesn't have much time
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  512. # [23:42] <mjs> anne: cool; I might do a few of those myself
  513. # [23:48] <anne> I suddenly got a bunch of new e-mails
  514. # [23:48] <anne> probably from all those "first timers"
  515. # [23:52] <anne> ah, deres e-mail is one of them
  516. # [23:57] <hsivonen> (s)he, of course, did not say why (s)he disagrees
  517. # [23:58] <hsivonen> nn
  518. # [23:59] <anne> of course :)
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  520. # Session Close: Wed Apr 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)