/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 12 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  9. # [00:22] <hsivonen> the WG could use some kind of "Patent Law for Dummies" as required reading
  10. # [00:22] <anne> HTML5 as required reading?
  11. # [00:23] <hsivonen> anne: that too
  12. # [00:23] * anne tries to stay away from patents
  13. # [00:23] <anne> but they're like angle brackets, you can't
  14. # [00:25] <mjs> it's tragic that as a practicing software technologist, you pretty much *need* to have a basic understanding of patent law
  15. # [00:26] <Dashiva> It's even more tragic that nothing is being done about it
  16. # [00:26] <Lachy> Dashiva, what can be done about it?
  17. # [00:27] <kingryan> improving the laws?
  18. # [00:27] <anne> dropping them :)
  19. # [00:27] <Lachy> until the silly politicians wake up and listen to the needs of software developers, nothing will happen
  20. # [00:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: campaing donations to people who are running for Congrees and who pledge to reform the patent system
  21. # [00:27] <hsivonen> Congress
  22. # [00:28] <Lachy> yeah, but I'm not even sure what the patent laws are in Australia
  23. # [00:28] <Philip> How about a Patent Law 5?
  24. # [00:28] <Dashiva> Lachy: As I said, tragic :)
  25. # [00:28] <Lachy> nor how much the US laws affect me, yet that's what all the information I've read is about
  26. # [00:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: the software market is global. *everyone* needs to understand the U.S. situation. Moreover, once the U.S. makes something a law, they pressure the E.U., Japan, Australia and New Zealand to adopt a similar policy
  27. # [00:30] <hsivonen> enough politics
  28. # [00:30] <hsivonen> nn
  29. # [00:32] <Hixie> wow finally finished my e-mail
  30. # [00:32] <mjs> finished reading it or writing?
  31. # [00:33] <Hixie> reading
  32. # [00:33] <claudio> deadly backlog
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  57. # [03:58] <sbuluf> i just woke up, and in the list archives, i'm seeing two of each day. could someone confirm me i'm not crazy?
  58. # [03:59] <Philip> The archives appear to be using the messages' local times, so it bounces backwards and forwards between days when people post from different timezones
  59. # [04:01] <sbuluf> phillip, thanks. i can't really function till first cofee, i was worried.
  60. # [04:03] <Lachy> sbuluf, what do you mean?
  61. # [04:03] <Lachy> we're all crazy here, but I don't understand what's happening
  62. # [04:04] <sbuluf> lachy this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/
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  65. # [04:24] <Lachy> sbuluf, I'm still not sure what you mean. There don't appear to be duplicate posts there, although Mike has been responding to a lot of them
  66. # [04:25] <sbuluf> lachy, i dee two heading for each day
  67. # [04:25] <sbuluf> *see
  68. # [04:26] <Lachy> ah, that happens when there's a delay in a message arriving
  69. # [04:26] <sbuluf> there is two thirsdays, for instance
  70. # [04:26] <sbuluf> first time i see. lucky i don't drink.
  71. # [04:30] <Lachy> the way the mail archive works is that it always lists them in in the order they're received, but uses the date in the email header
  72. # [04:31] * Quits: Philip (excors@80.177.163.133) (Quit: Philip)
  73. # [04:32] <heycam> http://www.cafepress.com/meepzor.10338499
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  79. # [06:10] <karl> heycam: definitely something to offer to mjs
  80. # [06:12] <sbuluf> karl, the list archive looked weird, have you seen it?
  81. # [06:17] <mjs> karl: *wince*
  82. # [06:18] <mjs> my choice of shirt with numbers would be http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com
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  85. # [06:22] <karl> ;)
  86. # [06:22] * karl will not give the link to his T-shirt on Cafe Press but basically
  87. # [06:23] <karl> on one side there is
  88. # [06:23] <karl> How To Make Love
  89. # [06:23] <karl> and on the other side there is
  90. # [06:23] <karl> My <head> is full of metadata and my <body> is well-formed.
  91. # [06:23] <karl> that was my geek minute. Return to normal program.
  92. # [06:25] <heycam> heh
  93. # [06:27] * Quits: Voluminous (voluminous@24.16.148.66) (Quit: Leaving)
  94. # [06:30] <sbuluf> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/ <--karl, does this render with duplicate headings for each day? have you seen this?
  95. # [06:30] <mjs> that's pretty geeky
  96. # [06:30] <mjs> Hixie has a <head> cap and a matching <body> t-shirt
  97. # [06:31] <Hixie> it's funnier than <head>
  98. # [06:31] <Hixie> it's <head/>
  99. # [06:32] <mjs> ah, right
  100. # [06:32] <karl> sbuluf: I see only one heading
  101. # [06:32] <mjs> Hixie: you only wear that to put the XHTML2 Defense League off-guard
  102. # [06:33] <mjs> so they can't see your evil corporate conspiracy to bribe browser vendors into furthering Google's corporate ends
  103. # [06:33] <mjs> by undermining XML technologies
  104. # [06:34] <Hixie> i just thought it was funny to label my head with an empty head tag
  105. # [06:34] <Hixie> :-)
  106. # [06:35] <sbuluf> karl, i see two, i think phillip also saw two (two thursdays, for instance). phillip thinks it might be because posts in different timezones.
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  109. # [07:02] * marcos knocks on wood so Hixie does not get hit by a bus!
  110. # [07:05] <Hixie> don't worry, there aren't many buses in the bay area
  111. # [07:05] * Hixie ducks
  112. # [07:05] <marcos> hehe :D
  113. # [07:16] <mjs> Hixie: actually there are!
  114. # [07:16] <mjs> and trains
  115. # [07:21] <Lachy> Hixie could get hit by the Google bus
  116. # [07:28] <mjs> I'm promoting some of the design principles to non-disputed
  117. # [07:29] <mjs> should "Support Extensions" go under the "Interoperability" category or the "Utility" one (which I should probably rename to "Usefulness"
  118. # [07:34] <Hixie> it should stay under "disputed"
  119. # [07:34] <Hixie> since it has no definition
  120. # [07:34] <Hixie> imho
  121. # [07:35] <mjs> I'm giving it a definition
  122. # [07:35] <Hixie> oh
  123. # [07:35] <Hixie> well then
  124. # [07:35] <Hixie> what is it? :-)
  125. # [07:35] <mjs> SupportExtensions: The next version of HTML should be designed to support extensibility. There are several possible sources of extensions. Vendor implementations may include extensions. Authors may wish to use extensions in their own document. And third parties (like the JavaScript libraries currently popular) may wish to provide extensions that authors can use. The markup and APIs should cater to these needs in a reasonable way.
  126. # [07:35] <mjs> maybe I should define what an "extension" is
  127. # [07:36] <Hixie> yes
  128. # [07:36] <Hixie> do you mean hooks for implementing othewrise unsupported features?
  129. # [07:36] <Hixie> or do you mean non-conforming changes to html?
  130. # [07:38] <mjs> ok
  131. # [07:38] <mjs> "Extensions are new constructs that are not part of the standard, including: markup elements and attributes; new allowed values for attributes; newly allowed content for an element; and added DOM API methods and attributes."
  132. # [07:38] <Hixie> well, they're not "allowed"
  133. # [07:39] <Hixie> that's the whole point :-)
  134. # [07:39] <mjs> I only used "allowed" for some of them
  135. # [07:39] <mjs> not sure how to express it better
  136. # [07:39] <mjs> the kind of thing I mean is a new predefined class name, or a new value for the "type" attribute that makes a special control in some particular browser
  137. # [07:40] <mjs> I'm not sure all these kinds of things should be supported in all cases
  138. # [07:40] <mjs> but, for example, class and rel are extension mechanisms of a sort
  139. # [07:41] <mjs> and the defined rendering for unknown elements in a sense also helps with extensibility
  140. # [07:41] <Hixie> mjs: hm
  141. # [07:41] <mjs> I saved as-is in "Disputed", better wording suggestions or an outright edit would be welcome
  142. # [07:41] <Hixie> i'll think about it
  143. # [07:42] <Hixie> not sure i can be helpful for this one though
  144. # [07:43] <Hixie> i think the text needs to say something about the spec needing to give well defined extension mechanisms that won't interfere with conformant implementations
  145. # [07:43] <mjs> I'm not in love with this one, but someone did ask for it, and it's true that extensibility is often accepted as a justification for certain things
  146. # [07:45] <mjs> one thing I am not sure of is, how important is it to support extensions in such a way that documents using them are still conforming?
  147. # [07:47] <Hixie> or is it important for the opposite to be the case
  148. # [07:47] <Hixie> yeah i don't know
  149. # [07:47] <Hixie> i'd leave it disputed unless you get stronger arguments for it
  150. # [07:53] <mjs> well, no one has really made an argument *against* it, as far as I know
  151. # [07:54] <mjs> it's just that the arguments for have been vague about use cases
  152. # [07:54] <Hixie> my argument againstit as a *principle* is that i wouldn't know how to apply it
  153. # [07:54] <Hixie> i think it's a fine *requirement*
  154. # [07:54] <Hixie> but not a design principle
  155. # [07:56] <mjs> that's a good point
  156. # [07:56] <mjs> this may be why I disliked it in the first place
  157. # [07:56] <sbuluf> desing principles pages are difficult to do. in a way, they should be sort of sharp. meant to order future discussions.
  158. # [07:56] <mjs> unlike security, it's not really something that every single feature should consider
  159. # [08:01] <karl> [14:37] <mjs> maybe I should define what an "extension" is
  160. # [08:02] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#extensions
  161. # [08:02] <mjs> karl: that's a pretty good definition
  162. # [08:05] <sbuluf> a “standard way to be non-standard”
  163. # [08:07] <sbuluf> the true crux of the matter, imho, however, is if this means those non-standard things get to be perpetuated by default, or if they are understood to be a temporary olution until the spec gets updated
  164. # [08:10] <mjs> I think there is limited need for vendor extensions to maintain document conformance
  165. # [08:10] <mjs> but library or author extensions should be able to
  166. # [08:10] <Hixie> to some extent
  167. # [08:11] <Hixie> i mean, we don't want to encourage people to invent new <indent> tags, etc
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  169. # [08:12] <mjs> right, but something like Dojo should be able to put its hooks on the markup without rendering it non-conformant
  170. # [08:12] <mjs> there is a balance to be struck
  171. # [08:14] <sbuluf> (what's dojo? what sort of beast?)
  172. # [08:15] <Hixie> mjs: yeah
  173. # [08:15] <mjs> sbuluf: a JS library for web application development
  174. # [08:15] <sbuluf> mjs, tahnks
  175. # [08:16] <mjs> http://dojotoolkit.org/
  176. # [08:17] <sbuluf> yep, the description was enough for me to google it, avoiding martial arts sites, thank you.
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  193. # [10:26] <Lachy> the XHTML2 WG telcon minutes are now public http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes.html
  194. # [10:26] <Lachy> it contains an amusing discussion of why their editors drafts don't work in IE, which are also public now http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/
  195. # [10:27] <Lachy> from the minutes: "Shane: ... Note that I have produced an HTML4.01+RDFa DTD as an exercise" :-)
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  197. # [10:31] <Lachy> good morning anne
  198. # [10:36] <anne> morning
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  227. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.reboot.dk/article-184-en.html
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  241. # [19:48] * beowulf reads the big long email from cwilso
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  253. # [21:55] <DanC_lap> ah... only 540 unread public-html messages
  254. # [21:55] <Voluminous> DanC_lap: Hope you have a venti mocha. ;-)
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  256. # [21:56] <DanC_lap> venti mocha? sorry, I don't know what that is
  257. # [21:57] <Voluminous> A rather large cup of espresso. :-)
  258. # [21:57] <DanC_lap> I guess the HTML5 proposal is only 3 days old. I do hope to hear from a few more parties.
  259. # [21:57] <DanC_lap> most of those 540 will probably remain unread
  260. # [21:58] <claudio> moka :)
  261. # [21:58] <Voluminous> Chris' e-mail was a good read and presented some interesting insight into their way of thinking.
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  265. # [22:31] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.139.123.225)
  266. # [22:35] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.97.103)
  267. # [22:40] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  268. # [22:58] * Joins: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198)
  269. # [23:36] * Quits: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198) (Ping timeout)
  270. # [23:57] * Joins: adele (adele@67.170.236.225)
  271. # [23:58] * Quits: adele (adele@67.170.236.225) (Client exited)
  272. # [23:58] * Joins: adele (adele@67.170.236.225)
  273. # Session Close: Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)