/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 18 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Voluminous> Someone needs to start a decrease indent thread to stop the madness.
  4. # [00:00] * Voluminous waits for the moans.
  5. # [00:00] <Dashiva> Well, the thread is quite well indented in my thread view, indeed
  6. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> so is the versioning thread
  7. # [00:01] <Dashiva> That's not as ironic, though
  8. # [00:02] * Joins: heycam (cam@143.238.153.121)
  9. # [00:06] <Zeros> Dashiva, Eh, the indent thread has reached a point at which both sides are saying the same thing different ways over and over
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  12. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "I hereby swear I want great standards, even if my pages break">
  13. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> the best doctype i've ever seen :D
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  15. # [00:29] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Quit: http://eric.daspet.name/ et l'édition 2007 de http://www.paris-web.fr/ )
  16. # [00:29] <Dashiva> great isn't good enough!
  17. # [00:30] * Quits: heycam (cam@143.238.153.121) (Quit: bye)
  18. # [00:30] <Zeros> zcorpan_, heh. onetruedoctype :/
  19. # [00:34] <Dashiva> Besides, people won't be able to spell it correctly
  20. # [00:34] <Philip`> Hmm, the word "epigraph" keeps getting confused with "epitaph" in my head
  21. # [00:37] <Zeros> epitome and episiotomy
  22. # [00:37] <Philip`> Dashiva: People can't spell the HTML4 doctype correctly either, but that doesn't stop them copying-and-pasting it :-)
  23. # [00:38] <Dashiva> Well then, what about the inevitable "swearing is bad" debate then?
  24. # [00:41] <Zeros> um, wrong kind of swearing
  25. # [00:41] <Philip`> I suppose you could change it to <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "I do hereby solemnly declare [...]">
  26. # [00:42] <Zeros> "work dammit"
  27. # [00:49] <Dashiva> "Do your worst"
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  29. # [00:50] <Philip`> If IE adds a "really standards mode", and does a reasonable job of really following the standards, I wonder if they could remove support for conditional comments when (and only when) in that mode, so that they wouldn't suffer as many different-content-sent-to-IE problems as they do now and so they could work the same as other browsers in the future
  30. # [00:52] <h3h> they'd have to send a different UA string as well
  31. # [00:52] <h3h> plenty of sites doing nasty sniffing
  32. # [00:52] <h3h> (and will likely continue to do so)
  33. # [00:52] <h3h> at least in the transition phase
  34. # [00:52] <h3h> before everyone realizes that IE can actually render a page according to the standards
  35. # [00:53] <Dashiva> Essentially launch a new browser once the standards support is good enough
  36. # [00:53] <Philip`> Given that most people seem to be unable to set Content-Type on their servers, how many do server-side UA sniffing?
  37. # [00:53] <Dashiva> client-side, Philip`
  38. # [00:54] <Dashiva> if ( navigator.userAgent.indexOf('MSIE') ) { breakstuff(); }
  39. # [00:54] <Philip`> Oh, right
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  41. # [00:56] <h3h> heh :)
  42. # [00:56] <Zeros> They need to start over and deprecated Trident
  43. # [00:56] <Zeros> -d
  44. # [00:56] <Dashiva> Nah
  45. # [00:57] <h3h> never start over
  46. # [00:57] <h3h> just ask Netscape
  47. # [00:57] <Zeros> right, NS4 instead of Gecko would have made so much sense
  48. # [00:57] <h3h> but don't be afraid of dramatic improvements
  49. # [00:57] <Dashiva> Just present a new exterior, to avoid the bag baggage targeted at older, bad IE
  50. # [00:57] <Zeros> h3h, Trident is so broken down inside
  51. # [00:57] <h3h> iterating on NS4's engine would have been a better business move than starting with a new rendering engine from scratch.
  52. # [00:58] <Philip`> At least not many sites seem to be checking for 'Mozilla' in the UA string any more, given that Opera has dropped it and still works. (Was that from the Netscape vs Mosaic days? Only took about twelve years to be phased out...)
  53. # [00:58] <h3h> and while I sympathize with the frustration, we have no direct evidence that Trident is fundamentally broken or flawed
  54. # [00:58] <zcorpan_> using gecko would solve their problems. :)
  55. # [00:58] <Dashiva> Philip`: Opera still uses it on plenty of sites
  56. # [00:59] <Zeros> h3h, You can select comments with CSS, the selector implementation is completely broken, The DOM isn't really a tree, The rendering portions are completely dependent on "layout" whereas elements lay themselves out instead of their parent which causes all kinds of weird behavior related to floats and other elements.
  57. # [00:59] <Dashiva> Usually to ensure they're picked up as a browser at all, since a lot of sites only check for IE and Geckos
  58. # [00:59] <Zeros> They fixed the * html {} bug and added *+html {}
  59. # [00:59] <Zeros> h3h, show me where it *isn't* broken?
  60. # [00:59] <h3h> all external factors that might not map directly to fundamental problems
  61. # [01:00] <h3h> the only people know how "broken" it is are those on the IE team
  62. # [01:00] <Zeros> h3h, I'm evident that the engine itself is such a mess they can't fix it completely.
  63. # [01:00] <h3h> and they're committed to fixing it, so who cares?
  64. # [01:00] <Zeros> They spent how long working on IE7? and it still suffers from lots of hasLayout issues
  65. # [01:00] <Zeros> the whole concept of Layout in IE is broken
  66. # [01:00] <zcorpan_> Zeros: they did not work on removing hasLayout for ie7
  67. # [01:00] <h3h> that's because most of the effort on IE7 went toward security and RSS support heh
  68. # [01:01] <Zeros> zcorpan_, the engine itself depends heavily on hasLayout, that's the whole way it renders. Elements with layout render themselves
  69. # [01:01] <h3h> my point is: Microsoft is here and has committed to fixing IE. that much should be cause for rejoicing.
  70. # [01:01] <Zeros> they'd need to replace the whole rendering engine to remove layout
  71. # [01:01] <h3h> pointing out the flaws they already know about over and over is just going to sour the relationship
  72. # [01:01] <Zeros> h3h, that's like Netscape saying they're committed to fixing NS4
  73. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> Zeros: i didn't say that i don't know how it works. :) i just said that they didn't work on removing it for ie7.
  74. # [01:02] <Zeros> everyone knew it was hopeless, Gecko was a god send
  75. # [01:02] <h3h> I'd rather have Netscape committed to fixing NS4 as the 90% market share browser than Netscape deciding it would move to a 100% proprietary lock-in infrastructure with the same market share
  76. # [01:03] <Zeros> huh?
  77. # [01:03] * Dashiva likes to point out that gecko spent 8 years not fixing inline-block. So much for layout :)
  78. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> Zeros: they might have to rewrite the engine from scratch in order to implement html5 correctly -- i don't know enough about trident to tell
  79. # [01:04] <Zeros> zcorpan_, I doubt they will. They seem happy to just hack away on the old Trident source
  80. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> indeed
  81. # [01:04] <h3h> FUD FUD FUD
  82. # [01:04] <h3h> useless.
  83. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> cwilso did say though that he intended to implement html5 as written
  84. # [01:04] <Zeros> h3h, Right. Its not like IE7 didn't add lots and lots of new CSS bugs and expose other issues related to IE's implementation
  85. # [01:05] <Zeros> h3h, or that IE doesn't even implement the simplest parts of the event model like the event object properly...
  86. # [01:05] <h3h> FUDtastic
  87. # [01:05] <Zeros> Its not FUD, its fact
  88. # [01:05] <Zeros> these bugs exist in IE, you can't deny it
  89. # [01:06] <Dashiva> They have their own event model, you can hardly call that a bug
  90. # [01:06] <Zeros> Dashiva, well, I guess the box model was a non-issue too :)
  91. # [01:07] <Dashiva> For what it's worth, their box model makes a lot of sense :)
  92. # [01:07] <Zeros> I suppose bug is the wrong word though
  93. # [01:07] <Zeros> bugs are things like the entirely broken selector system in CSS
  94. # [01:07] <Zeros> :)
  95. # [01:07] <zcorpan_> a feature is a bug. a lack of feature is also a bug
  96. # [01:07] <zcorpan_> :)
  97. # [01:08] <Dashiva> "I expect SVG to crash my browser, damnit. It's not part of HTML, don't go implementing it behind my back"
  98. # [01:09] <Zeros> when IE understands all of CSS1's syntax, the DOM doesn't allow recursion, and layout issues are a thing of the past you can tell me Trident isn't actually broken, its just a "few bugs"
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  108. # [02:07] <anne> anything new?
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  119. # [02:26] <anne> ah, John Boyer mailed the list
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  123. # [02:28] <mjs> anne: fun, fun
  124. # [02:30] <anne> public-html gets better by the day
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  129. # [02:34] <heycam> /nick anne5
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  131. # [02:34] <Hixie> anne: how so?
  132. # [02:35] <anne2> mostly the "interesting" e-mail
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  138. # [02:40] <Hixie> anne5?
  139. # [02:40] <Hixie> which one is interesting? :-)
  140. # [02:41] <anne5> John Boyer, I think
  141. # [02:41] <anne5> haven't read it yet
  142. # [02:41] <anne5> I appreciate the versioning flames as well
  143. # [02:41] <mjs> haha, anne5
  144. # [02:41] <anne5> oh, and the formal definition thread
  145. # [02:43] * Quits: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234) (Quit: |)
  146. # [02:49] <anne5> oh
  147. # [02:49] <anne5> I missed RDFa1
  148. # [02:49] <anne5> !
  149. # [02:50] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@66.92.187.33) (Quit: kingryan)
  150. # [02:50] <anne5> and stupid people are +1'ing it without arguments
  151. # [02:50] <anne5> how unexpected
  152. # [02:50] <zcorpan_> does it help to whine about it? :)
  153. # [02:51] <anne5> lots
  154. # [02:51] <zcorpan_> ok, then carry on
  155. # [02:51] <anne5> cwilso: " 'Let it take 2, 3 or more years.' This isn't pragmatic in a competitive browser marketplace."
  156. # [02:52] <mjs> vendor lock-in is much more pragmatic
  157. # [02:53] <anne5> that too, but also, they did let it slip for longer before...
  158. # [02:54] <Philip`> IE6 wasn't in an especially competitive browser marketplace
  159. # [02:55] <Hixie> anne5: i especially liked that e-mail because it basically admits that IE7 was in response to competition
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  164. # [03:09] <anne5> ok, more ranting
  165. # [03:10] <anne5> wtf is this about using the namespace for versioning
  166. # [03:10] <anne5> isn't this Murray supposed to have experience with markup languages?!
  167. # [03:13] <mjs> he has 30 years of experience
  168. # [03:13] <mjs> which he loves mentioning
  169. # [03:13] <mjs> next time he says it, I'll be tempted to reply "And I'm a level 42 elf, so I win."
  170. # [03:14] <zcorpan_> lol
  171. # [03:14] <Dashiva> green elf needs food badly
  172. # [03:16] <Zeros> Hixie, "[1] Based on a study of several billion pages covering millions of sites, done in March 2007." How did you scan the markup of billions of pages?
  173. # [03:17] <Hixie> carefully.
  174. # [03:17] <Zeros> um, rather, want to qualify how your quoted, and unverifiable research counts?
  175. # [03:18] <Zeros> What tools did you use that can support this...
  176. # [03:18] <zcorpan_> google? :)
  177. # [03:18] <Zeros> google lets you search the literal source of documents?
  178. # [03:18] <Dashiva> It was an inside job
  179. # [03:18] <Dashiva> Sort of literally
  180. # [03:19] <Zeros> heh
  181. # [03:19] <Hixie> Zeros: it doesn't count if you don't truest me
  182. # [03:19] <Hixie> trust, even
  183. # [03:19] <Zeros> ah
  184. # [03:19] <Hixie> which you are not required to do
  185. # [03:19] <Hixie> however, you could do a similar study to reproduce the results, just start a spider and crawl the web, then parse and analyse the results
  186. # [03:20] <Philip`> SELECT COUNT(*) FROM web_pages_cache WHERE content LIKE "%<blink>%"; -- it's not hard, surely? ;-)
  187. # [03:21] <Hixie> bbiab
  188. # [03:21] <Zeros> Philip`, I'd hope google isn't using sql to query their database
  189. # [03:24] <anne5> John Boyer replies to http://www.w3.org/mid/b21a10670704171500k11ddb355j35d64bdfa74336b0@mail.gmail.com
  190. # [03:24] <Zeros> Philip`, ((google_index.length - google_index.join('').replace('<blink>').length)) / '<blink>'.length ;)
  191. # [03:24] <anne5> "Seems illogical to me to have transitional technology to something that will be incompatible with the web (XForms)."
  192. # [03:24] <Philip`> Ah, good point - they might as well just use grep if they're scanning the whole database
  193. # [03:24] <anne5> s/replies/replied/
  194. # [03:25] <Zeros> Did anyone actually ever use the TIME interfaces IE provides?
  195. # [03:26] <anne5> prolly
  196. # [03:28] <Dashiva> Didn't someone say about 5 pages?
  197. # [03:30] <zcorpan_> hixie said he found 30 pages on the web that use <t:video>, and most were documentation
  198. # [03:30] <anne5> about 400 pages
  199. # [03:30] <anne5> 30 sites
  200. # [03:31] <zcorpan_> ah
  201. # [03:31] <anne5> iirc
  202. # [03:31] <Zeros> Can you define an arbitrary namespace instead of t?
  203. # [03:31] <Zeros> namespace prefix*
  204. # [03:31] <anne5> maybe
  205. # [03:32] <anne5> test it
  206. # [03:32] <anne5> prolly provides you with an answer quicker :)
  207. # [03:32] <Zeros> that means connecting to the VPN, RDC into a windows box and then writing out a page with it :)
  208. # [03:32] <Zeros> not exactly faster than just asking
  209. # [03:33] <anne5> write a page and give me a pointer then :)
  210. # [03:36] <Zeros> http://services.ath.cx/time.html
  211. # [03:39] <anne5> I can hear something (and the rest of the people around the table here...)
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  213. # [03:40] <Zeros> anne5, if you look there's a wmv it references, which is what should load.
  214. # [03:41] <anne5> yeah, I can hear the sound
  215. # [03:41] <anne5> someone speaking or something
  216. # [03:41] <Zeros> yeah
  217. # [03:41] <Zeros> "Hi there, Now you see me, Now you don't"
  218. # [03:41] <Zeros> interesting you're just getting sound
  219. # [03:42] <Zeros> I wonder what Hixie's search terms where, and if searching for :video instead of t:video gives something different.
  220. # [03:42] <anne5> oh, sound is almost muted as I'm in a meeting
  221. # [03:44] <zcorpan_> Zeros: he searched for t:video elements
  222. # [03:45] <zcorpan_> generally, authors don't change prefixes from the documentation, but you might find a few more pages using other prefixes
  223. # [03:46] <zcorpan_> look at rss 1.0 feeds for instance, the namespace prefixes are always the same
  224. # [03:47] <Philip`> Searching for urn:schemas-microsoft-com:time shows a minority (of pages talking it, not using it themselves) writing xmlns:time, and a strong majority are xmlns:t
  225. # [03:47] <Philip`> *talking about it
  226. # [03:48] <zcorpan_> then perhaps there are 30 sites using xmlns:t and 3 sites using xmlns:time or something :)
  227. # [03:50] <Zeros> possibly
  228. # [03:52] <anne5> JB: "I am sure I don't know what you mean when you claim that XForms is incompatible with the web"
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  230. # [03:54] <Zeros> XForms actually work pretty well as an abstract form descriptor to be transformed with XSL (or some such) on the server into HTML
  231. # [03:55] <anne5> "I am sure I don't know" is the funny part
  232. # [03:59] <anne5> +1 to marcos for his replly to Henrik
  233. # [03:59] <anne5> marcos
  234. # [03:59] <anne5> marcos
  235. # [03:59] <anne5> marcos
  236. # [03:59] <Dashiva> polos?
  237. # [04:00] <anne5> everytime you ping him a sound beeps
  238. # [04:00] <anne5> but he turned it off
  239. # [04:00] <Zeros> I thought +100,000 was the new one
  240. # [04:01] <Zeros> much more expressive
  241. # [04:01] <anne5> minus a million
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  361. # [19:42] <Voluminous> Too many e-mails... haha
  362. # [19:42] <Voluminous> I need a second 24-hour day to even think about contributing to a discussion. :-\
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  372. # [20:49] <h3h> how are test cases for HTML usually constructed?
  373. # [20:49] <h3h> to be verified by humans or machines?
  374. # [20:50] <kingryan> h3h: it depends on what part of html you're trying to test
  375. # [20:51] <kingryan> for parsing, it can be machine verifiable, but for rendering it's often human verfifiable
  376. # [20:51] <kingryan> verifiable*
  377. # [20:51] <h3h> gotcha
  378. # [20:53] <Philip`> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla_automated_testing includes Reftest, which does machine-verification of layout/rendering by comparing with a different HTML page that should generate the same output
  379. # [20:55] <Philip`> (http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tests/tree-construction/tests1.dat has automated parsing tests)
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  381. # [21:02] <jgraham> There are actually several files of tests under http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tests/tree-construction/
  382. # [21:03] <jgraham> tests1.dat is special only because it's the ones that Hixie/Google contributed and has the expected parse errors filled in for all tests
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The end :)