/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  41. # [06:37] <heycam> which has precedence, a Content-Type HTTP header or a <meta http-equiv=...> element?
  42. # [06:37] <anne5> Content-Type
  43. # [06:37] <Lachy> HTTP header
  44. # [06:38] <heycam> ok
  45. # [06:38] <anne5> not necessarily the HTTP header though, they could be complimentary
  46. # [06:38] <anne5> such as http-equiv="link"
  47. # [06:38] <heycam> aha
  48. # [06:38] <heycam> i meant just Content-Type though
  49. # [06:38] <anne5> although http-equiv="link" might no longer be working per HTML5...
  50. # [06:38] <heycam> in the http-equiv
  51. # [06:39] <anne5> yeah, I think http-equiv was redefined to accept certain magical values
  52. # [06:39] <heycam> do you know how to make dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/ use the right encoding for my html?
  53. # [06:39] <anne5> not possible :(
  54. # [06:39] <heycam> bleh
  55. # [06:41] <Lachy> yeah, http-equive only accepts "refresh" and "default-style" in HTML5
  56. # [06:41] <heycam> why's that?
  57. # [06:42] <anne5> yeah, it seems to set a default of iso-88591-1 or something
  58. # [06:42] <Zeros> Lachy, what's the purpose of removing the content type?
  59. # [06:42] <heycam> i see some people doing .../~checkout~/...?content-type=text/html;charset=utf-8 , but that didn't seem to work for me
  60. # [06:42] <anne5> Zeros, it's replaced with <meta charset=utf-8>
  61. # [06:42] <Lachy> it's replaced with <meta charset="">
  62. # [06:42] <Zeros> anne5, Is that backwards compatible?
  63. # [06:42] <anne5> heycam, you need %20 after the ;
  64. # [06:42] <anne5> Zeros, yes
  65. # [06:42] <Zeros> anne5, oh, then sweet. :)
  66. # [06:43] <heycam> space is required? is that for http as well?
  67. # [06:43] <Lachy> heycam, no
  68. # [06:43] <anne5> <meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8> is the reason why
  69. # [06:43] <heycam> is it a cvsweb peculiarity?
  70. # [06:43] <anne5> heycam, it's because the system is silly
  71. # [06:43] <heycam> hmm ok :)
  72. # [06:44] <heycam> anne5, is opera meant to handle command line arguments? if not, can you make it so? :)
  73. # [06:44] <anne5> heycam, it supports some I believe
  74. # [06:44] <heycam> i want to specify a file/url to open
  75. # [06:45] <anne5> why don't you RTFM: http://www.opera.com/docs/switches/ :p
  76. # [06:45] * anne5 doesn't have fast page load over here...
  77. # [06:46] <heycam> oh, i have to give -nosession before the url, or it will ignore it
  78. # [06:47] * heycam reckons a url by itself should imply -nosession
  79. # [06:48] <anne5> there's bugs.opera.com
  80. # [06:48] <anne5> and my.opera.com for suggestions on forums and such
  81. # [06:49] <anne5> we also accept binary patches :p
  82. # [06:50] <Zeros> Seems odd that -help launched Opera and doesn't just show the help list too
  83. # [06:51] <Zoffix> I believe `opera -newpage http://url` does it (works in my xchat)
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  99. # [10:45] <Oscar> Do you know what the rss feed are ?
  100. # [10:46] <Lachy> the RSS feed for what?
  101. # [10:46] <Oscar> i don't know
  102. # [10:46] <Lachy> or do you mean what they are in general?
  103. # [10:46] <Oscar> yes
  104. # [10:46] <Oscar> What are they ?
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  106. # [10:47] <Lachy> it's a syndication feed format. You can subscribe to them with a feed reader and be notified when sites get updated
  107. # [10:48] <Lachy> search for RSS or feed reader
  108. # [10:48] <Oscar> thanks
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  114. # [11:03] <Oscar> Do you know how html tidy works ?
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  137. # [13:20] <Oscar> flash or no flash ?
  138. # [13:21] <Oscar> what's your opinion ?
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  140. # [13:27] <Oscar> Please tell me
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  142. # [13:30] <Grauw> by the way, for those claiming that Google completely ignores META tags, that isn’t true: http://www.google.com/search?q=world+of+warcraft+herbalism+375
  143. # [13:30] <Grauw> the description on the third hit is directly from its meta name="description" tag
  144. # [13:34] <Oscar> google changed his logo today
  145. # [13:40] <Oscar> Ok , what do you think about flash ?
  146. # [13:41] <Grauw> *shrugs* it does what it has to do
  147. # [13:41] <olli-> in a non accesable way :-p
  148. # [13:42] <Oscar> I think that flash is very useful
  149. # [13:42] <Grauw> I dunno... plenty of places where I'm tabbing and I suddenly get caught in a Flash app
  150. # [13:43] <Grauw> pretty annoying, that, because I never know how to get out of tab order... uses ctrl-tab which I normally use for switching tabs, so I have ta use my mouse
  151. # [13:44] <Oscar> but flash games are very goo
  152. # [13:44] <Oscar> good*
  153. # [13:44] <Grauw> so even though it’s annoying, I’m not sure you can say that it’s entirely unaccessible :)
  154. # [13:44] <Grauw> that’s what flash is good at, yes
  155. # [13:44] <Oscar> lol
  156. # [13:45] <olli-> Grauw: depends on usage, but it's not indexable for google etc.. which ofcourse is not always as important for videos, but still :-)
  157. # [13:45] <Grauw> and vector graphics
  158. # [13:46] <Grauw> Are you sure Google can’t index it, or just can’t index it yet?
  159. # [13:46] <Grauw> I mean, Google is now also able to index pdf files and Word documents and presentations
  160. # [13:46] <olli-> Grauw: maybe yet then :-)
  161. # [13:46] <Grauw> as long as the text is stored as text and not as strokes, it should be possible
  162. # [13:47] <olli-> the thing most people has problem with flash is thats it's not a open technology, but thats more of a political issue
  163. # [13:47] <sbuluf> i wonder when we will finally get rid of pdf
  164. # [13:48] <Zoffix> I've heard that Google ignores XHTML documents (when served as application/xhtml+xml)
  165. # [13:48] <Grauw> I don’t know, but I guess it doesn’t. It’s not exactly common so it’s not a real problem, and the sites that use application/xhtml+xml use the Accept-header anyway.
  166. # [13:49] <Grauw> (to determine if they should serve it as application/xhtml+xml or text/html)
  167. # [13:49] <Grauw> anyway, Google can fix that of course :)
  168. # [13:49] <Grauw> ask Hixie to pull some strings ;p
  169. # [13:50] <olli-> Grauw: if he could get them to fix everything i would be sending him 23424 mails a day to get gWordoftheday to work with opera ;-)
  170. # [13:50] <Oscar> By the way , who and when created Google ?
  171. # [13:50] <olli-> Oscar: google it :-p
  172. # [13:51] <Oscar> ok
  173. # [13:51] <Zoffix> heeh
  174. # [13:51] <Oscar> what should i write in the textbox ?
  175. # [13:51] <Grauw> who made google
  176. # [13:51] <Oscar> creator of google ?
  177. # [13:51] <Oscar> ok
  178. # [13:52] <olli-> Sergey Brin and Larry Page
  179. # [13:52] <Grauw> "google founders"
  180. # [13:52] <Grauw> or just go to the Google page in wikipedia
  181. # [13:52] <Oscar> yes
  182. # [13:53] <Zoffix> Larry Page made Google _and_ Perl? 0.o
  183. # [13:53] <hasather> Zoffix: no
  184. # [13:53] <Zoffix> Oh, those are different Larries
  185. # [13:53] <hasather> Perl is Larry Wall
  186. # [13:53] <Zoffix> doh >_<
  187. # [13:54] * Zoffix hides in the corner
  188. # [13:54] <Oscar> lol , google founders must be very rich
  189. # [13:54] <olli-> they are
  190. # [13:54] <hasather> Luckily, my Perl knowledege ends there
  191. # [13:54] <Grauw> ‘there’s a videogame about Larry Page too?’
  192. # [13:54] <hasather> *knowledge
  193. # [13:54] <Oscar> but how do they get money ? from the ads ?
  194. # [13:55] <Grauw> you guessed it.
  195. # [13:55] <gsnedders> anyone know what per-mille of XHTML docs are served as XML?
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  197. # [13:56] <Oscar> ah what a web designer should know to call hiself web designer ?
  198. # [13:56] <Zoffix> heh
  199. # [13:56] <olli-> Oscar: frontpage? :-p
  200. # [13:56] <Zoffix> hahaha
  201. # [13:56] <Oscar> and dreamwaver ?
  202. # [13:58] <olli-> Oscar: even better :-)
  203. # [13:58] <Oscar> but i do not like frontpage and dreamwaver . they do all the job while you do not learn anything
  204. # [13:59] <Oscar> basically i have only used frontpage
  205. # [13:59] <Grauw> oscar, a web designer is someone who designs web pages
  206. # [13:59] <Grauw> how exactly it is done and what the quality of the code/markup is doesn’t really matter
  207. # [14:00] <Oscar> lol , you are right
  208. # [14:00] <Grauw> now if you would ask what a web designer should know to call himself a good web designer... :)
  209. # [14:01] <Grauw> well even then there are different degrees... I personally am not so good at creating graphically very appealing designs, even though my code might be tidy and my pages load fast. others might have terrible code but their sites look very good.
  210. # [14:01] <Oscar> Are they made by html or xhtml ?
  211. # [14:02] <Grauw> doesn’t matter
  212. # [14:03] <Oscar> sometimes i cannot make up my mind which one to use
  213. # [14:03] <Grauw> just pick the one you like
  214. # [14:04] <Grauw> I like XHTML because I think it’s tidyer (without optional end-tags, quoteless attributes, etc), and because it’s XML
  215. # [14:04] <Grauw> others like HTML for different reasons
  216. # [14:04] <Oscar> I like XHTML too
  217. # [14:06] <Grauw> e.g. they don’t like that XHTML is strict with errors, and think serving XHTML can be a little complicated (with Accept headers and two different MIME type and all)
  218. # [14:08] <Oscar> XHTML is still in its first "steps" (v. 1.0)
  219. # [14:09] <Grauw> I don’t think you can really say that...
  220. # [14:09] <Grauw> XHTML is a fairly simple thing, just a way to express HTML 4 in XML.
  221. # [14:10] <Grauw> I don’t see how it could be improved much.
  222. # [14:10] <Oscar> uh yes , you are true
  223. # [14:12] <Grauw> the only thing that is needed for XHTML to be really accepted at the moment is that the primary browser (IE) starts to support it properly
  224. # [14:12] <Grauw> then the Accept complications can be done away with
  225. # [14:12] <sbuluf> graw, the xhtml2 group apparently found a hack to serve it to ie
  226. # [14:13] <sbuluf> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0015.html
  227. # [14:13] <sbuluf> ((grauw, sorry)
  228. # [14:14] <Oscar> XHTML was primarily created for mobile phones and other divices ?
  229. # [14:14] <Grauw> Oscar, not true
  230. # [14:14] <Grauw> ah, interesting sbuluf
  231. # [14:15] <Grauw> I already noticed while testing out serving my website as application/xhtml+xml that in some cases IE did show it
  232. # [14:16] <Oscar> The problem with the different browsers infuriates me. Some browsers display a page very well and some no.
  233. # [14:16] <Grauw> but of course it still isn’t really practical to add ?.html at the end of all your URLs, making them ugly
  234. # [14:16] <sbuluf> cof course. it is a hack.
  235. # [14:16] <Grauw> and IE still processes it as HTML, and thus does not show any errors when the XML isn’t well-formed, giving the other browsers a disadvantage
  236. # [14:17] <Grauw> well, there is another trick which adds an XSLT stylesheet reference at the beginning, that contains an identity transformation, and then serve it as application/xml
  237. # [14:17] <Grauw> that would at least check the XML
  238. # [14:18] <Grauw> but still, interesting :)
  239. # [14:18] <sbuluf> i'm reading your blog atw, btw
  240. # [14:18] <sbuluf> some interesting stuff about back and forth compat
  241. # [14:19] <Grauw> oh, I wonder which part :)
  242. # [14:19] <Grauw> some things are old and do not 100% reflect my current opinions
  243. # [14:19] <sbuluf> well, there are a few entries on that
  244. # [14:21] <sbuluf> today earlier i asked here some related question
  245. # [14:21] <sbuluf> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070421#l-119 <--in case you are interested
  246. # [14:21] <Oscar> ok bye
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  250. # [14:28] <xover> This seems quite apropos for some reason: http://www.karppinen.fi/2007/04/17/turning-a-feature-into-a-flaw/
  251. # [14:36] <Grauw> interesting
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  258. # [15:09] <hsivonen> what's the official purpose of the www-html mailing list now? is it a public forum for the XHTML 2.0 WG?
  259. # [15:11] <Zoffix> ...and why I can't subscribe :(
  260. # [15:11] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  261. # [15:11] <Zoffix> ...to any mailing lists
  262. # [15:11] <sbuluf> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/ <--i think they moved exclusively to this one
  263. # [15:12] <sbuluf> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0009.html <--see this, in particular
  264. # [15:13] <myakura> not being able to subscribe though :(
  265. # [15:13] <hsivonen> so what is the official purpose of www-html today? is it just /dev/null for those who didn't notice the changes?
  266. # [15:14] <Dashiva> There is some traffic there, I'd suggest it's used for html things that fall outside the wg's charter
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  268. # [15:25] <Lachy> www-html should probably either be shut down, or turned into some sort of general-purpose HTML discussion list
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  271. # [15:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, regarding the thread on www-html, is it Safari that treats <script/> as an empty element in HTML for compat with dashboard, whereas other browsers repearse when they hit the end?
  272. # [15:52] <Lachy> I just tested it, it appears to
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  275. # [15:58] <zcorpan> opera did that too for a while... not anymore
  276. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: reparse?
  277. # [15:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  278. # [15:58] <zcorpan> opera still does reparsing if EOF in script is found, it seems
  279. # [15:58] <Lachy> FF appears to reparse when it hits EOF
  280. # [15:59] <zcorpan> Lachy: not in fx3
  281. # [15:59] * Lachy is using FF2!
  282. # [15:59] <hsivonen> where's the live dom viewer?
  283. # [15:59] <Lachy> oh no, latest post on public-html: " Alternatively, if Doug Schepers could be persuaded to serve in some editorial capacity..." :-)
  284. # [16:00] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  285. # [16:01] <hsivonen> ah. it was under software
  286. # [16:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
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  316. # [19:43] <Zoffix> Will HTML5 support namespaces?
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  319. # [20:19] <zcorpan> Zoffix: currently, the text/html serialization does not have a declarative namespace mechanism, but all elements are parsed into the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace
  320. # [20:20] <Zoffix> Thanks
  321. # [20:21] <zcorpan> Zoffix: there has been discussion about somehow adding MathML to text/html, which would live in the MathML namespace, but it wouldn't necessarily have to require a namespace mechanism
  322. # [20:23] <zcorpan> Zoffix: also, unless i'm mistaken, it has been pointed out that existing content on the web do various bogus things with namespace declarations that it wouldn't be possible to implement in a sane way
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  326. # [20:52] <hsivonen> I find it interesting that hyatt's WHATWG relationship is seen as a bug rather than a feature by Elliott Sprehn
  327. # [20:52] <hsivonen> what's the deal with all this suspicision about the WHATWG?
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  330. # [21:27] <Philip`> Maybe people are feeling that the WHATWG is an existing community that's extended itself into the HTML WG and has a chance of effectively taking over, and if those people are outside the WHATWG community (because their ideas are not really compatible with it) they'll want to fight against that so that they're not marginalised by all the people who agree with the WHATWG line on any issue
  331. # [21:29] <Philip`> (Sometimes it seems like discussions are several-WHATWG-people vs 'outsiders' - possibly because the WHATWG people have come to conclusions on all this stuff already, and anybody who disagreed has since been convinced or gone away, leaving lots of people who share the same ideas, which is unpleasant for someone else to try arguing against)
  332. # [21:29] <Philip`> But I could be totally wrong - it's just a vague impression that I get :-)
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  336. # [21:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: but the WHATWG conclusions aren't random stuff. there's thinking behind the conclusions. it makes no sense to think that the WHATWG folks are pushing a random view just because it's their view
  337. # [21:37] <Sander> whatwg might be seen as anti-w3c, since it got started by browser vendors when w3c took a non-optimal view of the future of web apps.
  338. # [21:38] <hsivonen> I think that people really need to think in terms of optimizing spec quality instead of what organization makes its mark
  339. # [21:38] * Sander completely agrees
  340. # [21:39] <Sander> Now to convince those that actually need convincing. :)
  341. # [21:43] <Philip`> People have said they don't want the HTML WG to just be rubber-stamping the WHATWG work, so presumably they want to reopen the discussions that have happened in the WHATWG, which is hard when the WHATWG people have already heard most of the arguments and reached conclusions and believe they've found the best solution and don't want to start the discussion all over again from the beginning
  342. # [21:44] <hsivonen> that's a feature, not a bug
  343. # [21:44] <hsivonen> having the best solution already, that is
  344. # [21:48] <Philip`> Indeed, and I believe it's sensible to stick with the WHATWG decisions (when they were actual decisions, not just bits put in the spec since nobody has disagreed or thought much about it yet), because there's no good reason to believe a better solution will come from the HTML WG repeating the discussion; but I sometimes find it hard to accept decisions made without me being involved, so I can understand other people having that problem
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  346. # [22:18] <gsnedders> when replying to such things, I think WHATWG discussions should be linked to.
  347. # [22:19] <gsnedders> so people can read over what' been said
  348. # [22:19] <gsnedders> *what's
  349. # [22:19] <zcorpan> doesn't matter where the discussion took place, really
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The end :)